The following is from http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php...p?showtopic=879

The Culture of Critique (Review)

In The Culture of Critique, Kevin MacDonald advances a carefully researched but extremely controversial thesis: that certain 20th century intellectual movements - largely established and led by Jews - have changed European societies in fundamental ways and destroyed the confidence of Western man. He claims that these movements were designed, consciously or unconsciously, to advance Jewish interests even though they were presented to non-Jews as universalistic and even utopian. He concludes that the increasing dominance of these ideas has had profound political and social consequences that benefited Jews but caused great harm to gentile societies. This analysis, which he makes with considerable force, is an unusual indictment of a people generally thought to be more sinned against than sinning.

The Culture of Critique is the final title in Prof. MacDonald's massive, three-volume study of Jews and their role in history. The two previous volumes are A People That Shall Dwell Alone and Separation and its Discontents, published by Praeger in 1994 and 1998. The series is written from a sociobiological perspective that views Judaism as a unique survival strategy that helps Jews compete with other ethnic groups. Prof. MacDonald, who is a psychologist at the University of California at Long Beach, explains this perspective in the first volume, which describes Jews as having a very powerful sense of uniqueness that has kept them socially and genetically separate from other peoples. The second volume traces the history of Jewish-gentile relations, and finds the causes of anti-Semitism primarily in the almost invariable commercial and intellectual dominance of gentile societies by Jews and in their refusal to assimilate. The Culture of Critique brings his analysis into the present century, with an account of the Jewish role in the radical critique of traditional culture.

The intellectual movements Prof. MacDonald discusses in this volume are Marxism, Freudian psychoanalysis, the Frankfurt school of sociology, and Boasian anthropology. Perhaps most relevant from a racial perspective, he also traces the role of Jews in promoting multi-culturalism and Third World immigration. Throughout his analysis Prof. MacDonald reiterates his view that Jews have promoted these movements as Jews and in the interests of Jews, though they have often tried to give the impression that they had no distinctive interests of their own. Therefore Prof. MacDonald's most profound charge against Jews is not ethnocentrism but dishonesty - that while claiming to be working for the good of mankind they have often worked for their own good and to the detriment of others. While attempting to promote the brotherhood of man by dissolving the ethnic identification of gentiles, Jews have maintained precisely the kind of intense group solidarity they decry as immoral in others.

Complete article is at http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php...p?showtopic=879

Please let me know what you think regarding this article.

Regards,

Christine Horner

Let me verify that you want us simply to debate the merits of this article?

For future reference, please read this thread: A Question to Debate



Edited to add: this isn't merely SPAM to get us to go to another forum is it?

Yes please. I would like people to apply what they personally know or have experienced and see if it is consistent with the contents of the article I posted.

Regards,

Christine Horner

This seems to be a new movement to make an intellectual version of the "a group of Jewish bankers are secretly controlling the world" theory.

It takes the effects of modernism and the rise of its intellectual movement and ascribes to it a Jewish conspiracy.

What seems to be missing is the way that Jews have benefited as a group from this conspiracy. It must be quite sinister indeed to have secretly combined marxism, freudian psychology, einstein's physics, and the spun off cultural anthropology into what???

The triggering of a holocaust and the creation of a new country in a sea of hostile opposition that seems deemed to be mired in a never ending cycle of war?

I especially like how the grandfather of the movement and its philosopher attacked so connivingly the Judeo-Christian ethics that seem to ground the jewish people and faith.

To me this sounds like a new pseudo-intellectual pile of garbage meant to incite a new wave of anti-semitism and anti-semites.

The plight of jews especially in russia where marx's ideas took root makes this seem an unlikely conscious plan.

It simply transfers the negative effects of Modernism on Western Civilization (its cultural pride, and its political,economic and cultural dominance before world war I and blames it on the Jews. This movement swept much of western civilization along with it and that includes the Jews. That they took part in it in greater percentages than their general numbers should only reflect the fact that intellectual pursuits were one of the few areas they were allowed relative freedom in the late medieval, renaissance, age of enlightenment eras of western civilization.



I hope this garbage gets only a quick dismissal from the intellectual world. However in our new dilapidated culture eroded my modern skepticism we pay more attention to sensational claims than well presented, careful claims.



Again, the gains of the Jews are asserted but not presented. It is hard to see how the Jews have eroded ethnic identity while becoming the great champions of a secular/religious national state as a holy homeland. They are mired in one of the most enduring ethnic struggles of this era of nations.

My conclusion based on the evidence presented is that this is an unfortunate example of pseudo-scientific anti-semitic bile.

A lot of what this guys is talking about can be explained by the fact the Jews are part of a religion and an ethnic group.

All I know being half-Jewish is that we Jews assimilate into societies that let us quite well. Look at the United States, a county with relatively little anti-Semitism; all Jews here are very American. The cause of Jewish unity has been anti-Semitism not the other way around. If you look around the world countries that have lots of anti-Semitism have a more separate Jewish community. Countries with a small amount of anti-Semitism like the US or Britain have very assimilated Jewish population.
Edited to Add: This is a terrible article and just another attempt to give a rational basis for anti-Semitism. Being half-Jewish let me assure everyone there is no Jewish conspiracy.

Hello!

You did not read the complete article, but here are some more documentations:

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews/Jews-...s-CaseJews.html
http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/ethnic.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/mac.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/poj.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/Shahak.htm
http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/Preface.htm
http://www.1stbooks.com/cgi-bin/1st?partne...#124;Data1~8622
http://christianparty.net/mediaownership.htm
http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/
http://www.jewwatch.com/



You did not read the complete article, which explains this.



You did not read the complete article, which explains this.



You did not read the complete article; if you did, you would see that it makes no mention of "Judeo-Christianity." Aside from that, Judaism in its current state has no similarity to Christianity with respect to moral guidlines for behavior. Here is a summary of Jewish morality: http://www.hoffman-info.com/talmudtruth.html




Karl Marx was Jewish. Russia was an White collectivist nation, one that did not tollerate Jewish exploitation. So the Russian Jews started Bolshevism to convert Russian society into one that embraced Liberalism (Liberalism promotes tollerance of Jews). The Jewish Bolshevics slaughtered more than 30 million Christians since they refused to "Liberalize." But then, the Jewish Bolshevics were thrown out by the White Marxists who then turned philo-semetic Bolshevism into anti-Semetic Russian Marxism, thus the Jews started to reject Marxism in Russia since it no longer served Jewish interests.



You did not read the complete article, which explains this. Jews support erroding ethnic and cultural identity in Gentile nations because such heterogenius nations make them safer for Jews. But, they on the other hand support racial and cultural purity in their own homeland of Israel.

Regards,

Christine Horner

most people here are to dont want to discuss this, any attempts to will be labled as anti semite, i would for your own sake stick to not talking about such. As in it will just ruin your ability to post/debate here. I know first hand.

Because it is racist KKK garbage. Using racist lies about the Jewish people to back up debate is stupid and shouldn't be allowed. Every one of those articles is racist nonsense many of them espousing crazy Nazi ideas like Holocaust revisionism and that the media is controlled by Jews. None of those assumptions are backed up with anything close to fact and they are just musings of broken, hateful men.

so then, to debate a history of a group of people is outlawed, i do think jewish hisory goes farther back then nazi germany does it not. If all you can see in this is nazi germany i am sorry, and to correct you on something everything i have read about jewish culture comes from jewish people, not some neo nazi group.

Is this a joke? I checked out all of those links. They are not factual. They are opinion pieces. Furthermore, they are extreme right wing garbage. Its nonsense like that, and the morons who think that way, that give the decent people on the right a bad name. Absolutely ridiculous...

this is the only thing i dont get on the whole of this issue, its like race debates here, where its open to talk about white and black american, or to say that islam is a nation of thugs, or this that or the other, or dirty french people. If you can talk about groups of people you should be able to talk about groups of people. If you read any of my posts you will find that i basically want to get rid of anything that segregates people, as i think it only aids the state of our own distruction, and all kinds of stuff that is pretty far out, i just think it is lame to say that i am or anyone is an anti semite or a nazi for talking about this, its silly, because that same logic should apply to everything, for me to be an anti semite or for another human, it would require hate, or me saying i agree with the holocoust, something I dont.
If i bring up a point about why you have zionist to orthodox jews, why does that make me an anti semite????

critcism of people that are jewish is NOT necessarily anti-semitic. you shouldn't criticize and put down groups of people based on race, as that is illogical; no one chooses to be that race. the problem with the term anti-semitism (which from what I gather this IS) is that it is too often used to suppress legitimate discussion and criticism of things that people of jewish descent DO (as is often the case when criticizing israel) however when one is called anti-semitic and their is a reason for, like criticizing jews BECAUSE they're jews (like this drivel) then it is deserved.



about the ONLY fact in the above is that marx was a jew. as a communist I take VERY much objection with these lies. russia prior to lenin and the bolsheviKs was under control of an interim government, which had been preceded by tsar nicholas II. the bolsheviks were NOT created to convert russia to to liberalism. they were originally part of a party called the Social Democratic Labour Party. they formed from a dispute between Vladimir Lenin and Julius Martov about how to go about things (Ilich[lenin] promoted the vanguard party an martov a large party of activists) the followers of Ilich became the bolsheviks, and martov's followers mensheviks. this was in 1903 while the tsar was still in power. it should be noted that the jews that were bolsheviks (and mensheviks if trotsky is included) CHANGED THEIR LAST NAMES TO LESS JEWISH ONES. they did so out of fear their revolution would be labeled a "zionist (ie jewish) conspiracy" among other reasons.
as to them killing 30 million christians: I would like to see some CREDIBLE FACTUAL SOURCES. (not saying some christians weren't killed, but it wasn't only because they were christian) the jewish descended bolsheviks were purged by stalin not cause they were jews, but because Josef Stalin was power hungry and paranoid. he saw these people as a threat to his control, and purged any he saw as a threat to him and the revolution (real or not) regardless of religion or ethnic background. before you go and criticize something at least learn SOME truth about it. I suggest you start here as it is a good impartial source of info. your ignorance on this issue discredits all you say in my opinion.

do jews want things their way? of course who doesn't. is there a "jewish conspiracy"? absolutely not. yes, they control many businesses here in america, perhaps they know business real well. and yes Israel's lobby is the most influential in D.C. but it is not a jewish conspiracy. there is more likely a zionist conspiracy, but it should be noted, zionist doesn't equal jew, as hundreds of denominations of CHRISTIANS (esp. the more fundamentalist ones) are zionist, and some happen to be jews. they believe that the birth and existence of israel is a sign the "rapture" is coming and they intend to speed it up if possible. and even the "zionist conspiracy" may not be an actual conspiracy, but simply people manipulating events for their own benefit.

you are an actual anti-semite, meaning you hate jews because they're jews. it is because of people like you that critical, intelligent discussions of Israel don't happen without the pro-israel side screaming "anti-semite" you are very obviously a racist and I don't think we should have to deal that here, as this is a forum for intelligent and constructive debate.

nileriver- I agree. any time their is discussion of jews and israel no one wants to talk about it because they are afraid to labeled anti-semite. now, this person IS saying some very racist anti-semitic things. it is one thing when someone is called anti-semite because they disagree with or hate Israeli policies, which is wrong. it is quite another when somone is called anti-semite because they criticise or hate jews for being jews. (as this guy seems to be doing) it does show the influence jews have on our society that people are afraid to even discuss anything concerning jews or israel. which is likely because of the inflated number of jewish deaths(among many other peoples) at the hands of the nazi's

Wow, I go away for a little while and look what happens... Ok, there are several things I need to adress. First of all to Christine, you need to pay more attention to the posting guidelines of this forum.



This is not a sufficient response with which to generate discussion. Second of all, it makes an assumption which we all know is foolhardy in a place like this. Perhaps Eoyore read the article and did not feel that it did explain your position.



If you will observe the people that have taken objection to anti-semitic remarks have also complained as much as decorum will allow regarding racist comments towards the french, muslims, and whomever else is being discussed in the language of hate. As for this supposed labelling that goes on, make no mistake that some of the people in question, like yourself, have EARNED said label. You said quite clearly that you felt that the Jews were a race of "vagrants" and that qualifies as an anti-semitic remark in anyone's dictionary, you make a negative generalization of a whole group of people.

At the same time Christine is certainly demonstrating a tendency towards anti-semitism in this discussion not so much in her own postings, but the material in which she uses. Her sources are speculative at best, and do not appear to hold up to critical scrutiny in the eyes of anyone here that has actually read them. This implies either an inability to carefully scrutinize literature on her part, or a conscious acceptance of this material despite it's fundamental flaws. Such an acceptance would indicate that she believes the material to be true, and moreover that she WANTS it to be true, and as such can perhaps be labelled an anti-semite because the material clearly is anti-semitic. If you want to discuss the holocaust then, or orthodox jews, you are more than welcome to do so if you can construct your posts in the manner outlined by the forum guidelines. Although you should do it in another thread....



You know it's funny, when I had my Bat Mitzvah, I read from the Torah. (That would be the old-testament for all you non-Jews.) In Hebrew school I learned that the ten commandments were the most important element of Jewish law regarding morality. As a matter of fact, not a single Jew I know values the Talmud as the moral center of the Jewish faith. The Talmud MAY say those things, but there is no evidence whatsoever in the link you provided that Jews as a group follow those teachings as any sort of behavioural guideline.



This is patently untrue. Unabomber has made it quite clear so I won't repeat what he says, but I will ask what (if any) documentation you have that actually proves this; and I'm not talking about some right-wing leaflet that merely says that it is true.



This comment is as silly and misguided as the rest, but it does identify something which I think needs to be discussed. To what group are you referring to specifically in your "arguments"? All Jews? Orthodox Jews? The Jews in Israel? Please clarify so we can more directly disassemble your rubbish.

Russia didn't tolerate Jewish EXPLOITATION? Let’s examine pre-Marxist history in Russia, shall we? My uncle (retired history professor) wrote a book on this entitled 'Seeds of Insanity'- very few in publication. I'm using it for the background here, so I can't provide a link.

Three attacks on Jewish communities…1820, 1859, 1871. The last began after a series of rumors, first claiming that a Jew had thrown rocks at a church, which precipitated into a supposed government proclamation that it was legal to pillage Jews during the three days of Easter. Mobs of people stormed the Jewish communities looting, burning, raping, and killing. The Russian government not only turned a blind eye, but maintained that the uprising was justified.

Ever hear of the pogrom? It’s the Russian word for pillage. It came to mean the massacre of Jewish communities by their neighbors, either under the direction of or with the sympathetic co-operation of the Russian police and army. Pogroms became frequent features of Russian life, and the pattern was well established. Crowds of people would arrive by train on a rumor of a pogrom. After a great deal of drinking these crowds would invade the Jewish ghettos in an orgy of rape, pillage and looting. Local authorities would protect the MOBS against Jewish defenses. The Russian government used the Jews to quench the anti-government anger of the population prior to the Communist revolution.

Later, in 1882, Russia passed the May Laws, designed to force Jews to emigrate, convert, or die. To remain in their rented homes they had to have written proof they had lived there since before May of 1882. Almost all were forced to move because their leases were verbal as the owners could neither read nor write. Larger towns were soon overrun with homeless Jews. Thousands were forced to emigrate to Austria, England, Germany, and the USA. Is it any wonder they ( the few not driven out in anti-Semitic violence) embraced a different form of government when it was initially offered?

In the history of anti-Semitism, there remains one truism throughout. The Jews are continuously used as the scapegoat for societal ills and other completely unrelated problems. In the Medieval period, they were viewed with contempt for their high levels of education and absence of religious barriers to usury. Later, they were blamed for causing every catastrophy from the Black plague to earth quakes to infant deaths. Now, in your article, they are accused of promoting some nefarious agenda by encouraging diversity and antidiscrimination. History does rhyme.

Hello everyone!

It is irrelevant whether or not I am projecting the psycho-biological sensation of hate towards Jews collectively; the only thing that matters is whether the data I posted are correct. Many here are trying to avoid the data by switching the topic to my psycho-biology.

But, to please the emotionalists in this forum, I don't experience the psycho-biological sensation of hate, period. This instinctual sensation in me does not manifest itself into an extended phenotype, though the genotype and phenotype for this sensation does lie dormantly in my body.

Now, the issue on Jewish behavior: the data I posted does not say all Jews are behind this undesirable behavior, it just says that the people who are leading these negative movements are Jews. Just like Blacks have the highest per capita crime rate, this does not mean all Blacks are criminals. Same with Jews. I personally have several Jewish friends and Jewish neighbors, one of my relatives is half-Jewish, and there are many honest Jewish intellectuals that I admire.

Regarding the slaughter of more than 30 million Christians by Jewish Bolshevics in Russia, one book that talks about this is "The Black Book of Communism." The following are some excerpts from the book: http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/bbc.htm Here are some excerpts from the book "Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime" by Richard Pipes: http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/soviet.htm

In conclusion, the following are some more documentation on unethical Jewish behavior:

http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/
http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html
http://www.questia.com/PageManagerHTMLMedi...&docId=27989890
http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php...hp?showforum=28
http://www.webshells.com/adlwatch/
http://www.legioneuropa.org/
http://www.barnesreview.org/
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/
http://www.carolontheweb.com/
http://www.ihr.org/
http://www.americanfreepress.net/
http://www.nowarforisrael.com/
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/ (an actual honest Jew)
http://www.reportersnotebook.com/
http://www.whtt.org/
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
http://www.rense.com/ (Kind of a crazy site, but still interesting)

Regards,

Christine Horner

Gee, I wonder why. It is amazing how this garbage keeps getting recirculated. It is one thing to critique the actions of Isreal and even question the Zionists who have influence in Isreal. It is another thing to attribute all the world's evils to the Jews.

A question for Rancid Uncle, I though the mother determined if you were a Jew or not and that it was impossible to be half-Jewish, am I wrong?

Nobody tried to switch the focus of this discussion except for you. In case you were not clear, you have to participate in the debate, and merely running off the same or similar sources without any context or justification is NOT sufficient if you do not at the same time adress the statements made by other members.



There is nothing in there that suggests that the "Jewish Bolsheviks" were behind the slaughter of 30 million christians. In fact the number "30 million" never appears in the text. Perhaps it is you that needs to read your articles more closely.

The second link is even more damaging to YOUR arguments! Here is an excerpt. I have added the emphasis to demonstrate that the author is saying the exact opposite of what you have suggested:



Oh by the way the number "30 million" (or any alternate phrasing) does not come up in that article either.

On edit:


You posted very little "data" and the stuff you did provide has been demonstrated as INCORRECT.

yes, but if i as a person dont agree with isreal, or what i mean by that is what they are doing, does that make me an anti semite, you seem to be the ruleing authority on this subject,so i ask you.

I don't really appreciate the sarcasm, and this isn't the appropriate place, but for the sake of expediency I will answer this question. ONCE.

Criticizing Israel or certain Israeli's does not make you an anti-semite. I criticize Sharon and the religious factions that run the country on a daily basis. Making broad and insulting generalizations about the Jewish people, which you HAVE done, does. And you have done nothing that absolves you of your earlier position as far as I am concerned.

Actually, the link I posted reinforces my argument: Richard Pipes shows us that it was common knowledge in the early 1900s that Jewish Supremacists were behind Communism and Bolshevism. Even Winston Churchhill knew this:

"In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. ... This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany) and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs [Nesta] Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire." --Winston Churchill, "Bolshevism, A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People", London Illustrated Herald, 8 Feb 1920

Regards,

Christine Horner

I agree.

I disagree with INDIVIDUAL African Americans but that doesn't mean I'm a racist.

BUT this anti-semitic PROPAGANDA is insulting, I have a Jewish lineage and I'm sure that most people that have read my posts in the Religion threads know my views on the Jewish people. It is unfortunate (and this is my personal religious beliefs) that the people of God are still being persecuted and will continue to be persecuted until the End Times.

Even President Harry S. Truman knew about the Jews:

The following is from http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/0703/...3/11truman.html

[ The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 7/11/03 ]

Truman rant on Jews surprises scholars
Diary found at his library

By REBECCA DANA
Washington Post

"The Jews, I find are very, very selfish," President Harry S. Truman wrote in a 1947 diary that was recently discovered on the shelves of the Truman Library in Independence, Mo., and released by the National Archives on Thursday.

Complete article is at http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/0703/...3/11truman.html

Regards,

Christine Horner

Hello!

Actually, historys shows that Jews initiated the cycle of persecution by persecuting Gentiles, then the Gentiles would retaliate by persecuting Jews. This cycle continues today.

Regards,

Christine Horner

Christine, I'm sorry that you are so gullible as to believe the stupid spew you are mucking this fine site with. You ought to be ashamed of holding such patently untrue beliefs.

This material is not worthy of debate.

(quarkhead cringes and waits for a strike from the administration)

I'm sorry, but you need to read some FACTUAL HISTORY of the Jewish people, such as the Old Testament and pretty much any records and writings of the Roman Empire pertaining to the land of Isreal.

Hellooooo, yourself!!!!! *geesh*

Each side trys to make themselves out to be perfect angles. This is funny, here let me say it this way, the group strategy that is very strong in the jewish community comes from the religion of theres, along those same lines as "gods choosen people". Silly things like that, instead of vagrant i shall use immigrant, the jewish immigrants that moved to other countries used this group strategy as thier base for culture, it was to be a serious punishment to learn the language and or customs of any nation that they lived in. Such punishments could be a flogging, banishment, and leaveing you dead body in the street. This same religous group strategy is the reason isreal is in reality, this same group strategy has jews themselves at war with each other, that is a savage world over in isreal, even the children are so into it they will attack people. I would like to think that my friends in this world can see people for people, not some racist remark like gods choosen people, i mean if you look at the history of the people behind the creation of isreal, its not a very nice picture is all i will say. Its like you are not allowed to look into anything or you will be an anti semite, i think that is sad at best.

I truely hope you are not alluding to censorship. But, I have faith in the intellectual honesty of the owner of this forum.

Censorship of course would actually show all the silent onlookers of this thread that I possess data on some ugly truths which are so revealing that it must be censored.

This is a good time to post some quotes of John Bryant at http://www.thebirdman.org/

"Free speech is offensive speech." --JBR Yant

"Making shishkebob out of sacred cows - Proving everything you know is wrong"

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident." --Arthur Schopenhauer

"To attempt to silence a man is to pay him homage, for it is an acknowledgement that his arguments are both impossible to answer and impossible to ignore." --JBR Yant

"Bigotry: Your enemies' opinions; as opposed to Truth: Your own."--JBR Yant

"Crush your enemies. Make them your friends." --JBR Yant

"THERE IS NO REASON TO SUPPRESS A VIEWPOINT UNLESS IT IS TRUE, because a false viewpoint can easily be combatted with facts and logic, while truth cannot be combatted except by lies which are vulnerable to refutation."

Regards,

Christine Horner

Or that you are merely here to inflame us, which is a violation of our rules. Good try, though.

Please tie your quotations and citations into your argument. You have demonstrated very little relationship between your opinions and your links.

By the way, we do have a whole forum, you may want to try out some other debates.

Nileriver,

I hope you really see the difference between disagreeing with Israeli policies (as I often do) and thinking that every bad thing for the past two centuries has been a secret plan of evil jews.

C. H.

Your posts do not provide evidence of any kind to prove a Jewish conspiracy. You do however prove how virulent anti-semitism was an is. If anything it pains me to think how prevalent anti-semitism still is after the holocaust.

That Winston Churchill was a virulent ant-semite is unfortunate. But so was Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh.

Hitler used the accusation of Bolshevism of the Jews to allow himself to assume emergency powers against the Communist threat. Then he justified his policies that lead to genocide based on his equation that Bolshevism = Jewish conspiracy.

The Russian revolution was class based. It attacked any bond that could diminish class affiliation. Nationalism and religion are the enemies of Marxism.

I will retire from this debate at this point because it is hate mongering. It is not based on facts but on half-truths and bold empty claims. Shame on you.

The only thing you have proven is that anti-semitism is pervasive throughout history. Enjoy your short stay on Americas Debate.

Hello!

My thread is an honest attempt to engage in a serious debate. I did not start it just to anger people.

Regards,

Christine Horner

Nileriver:


Sources please.



You are allowed to look into anything you want. But if it is a path so frought with untruth and bigotry, you should expect people to not take it seriously.

Christine:


That's not true at all. If I put up a post saying that Black people deserved slavery, and linked to a bunch of anti-black websites, and then I was attacked for my untrue posts, and then my thread was closed because of inflammatory statements about blacks, would said censorship magically give my argument credence?

By the way, the answer to that is "no, it wouldn't."



I am not alluding to censorship. Just that your so-called facts are non-existent, your views are of the sort that in this day and age are stuck at about a 60 IQ level, and as such, they are not worth debating. I'm not going to waste a bunch of time refuting all your links and points; they are so patently absurd, why should I bother? I could link to a hundred anti-black sites, so what? If people choose not to refute all of those links, fact by fact, does that make the information in those sites true by default? Don't be so silly, ms. Horner.

You are a perfect example of "a little knowledge is a terrible thing."

Hello,

The psycho-biological sensation of shame has no place in an empirical debate.

Regards,

Christine Horner

Excuse me?! My "silly" referrals to the Jewish beliefs are NOT racist, but rather based on the the Jewish and Christian faith. I am not saying that the State of israel and Jewish people in general are without fault and I think people need to be held accountable on an individual basis, regardless of race, creed, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. But to blame a countries financial woes such as the Nazi's did is TRUE RACISM. Please don't slander me with accusations of racism.

If the proponent of Black slavery made his case in a rational manner, and then linked to a bunch of sites that contained data or philosophical thoughts, then yes, censoring him simply because your moral values differ from his would be undesirable, in my opinion.

Of course, you would not want the whole forum being flooded with his unpopular ideas, so if I owned the forum, I would create one section for "radical" posters so at least their views could be heard. You never know, these "radicals" may actually have something useful to say. In the time of slavery, those who opposed it were the "radicals."

Regards,

Christine Horner

How is this an empirical debate? All you have done is repeatedly express your opinion (and the opinion of other noted anti-semites such as Churchill) without any sort of foundational evidence. You have failed when further questioned to provide specific details that you have previously alerted too. I feel that you are not only presenting a flat out wrong position, but that you are doing it extremely poorly.

Nileriver, this is not hte correct place to discuss what anti-semitism is. Take it to another thread.

Well, I really do appreciate the administrator's decision to let this controversial topic carry out. I can understand why she would be nervous though. So, out of respect, I will let this be my last post in this thread and let the forum recuperate. Perhaps I will join in on some other threads.

Regards,

Christine Horner

Let me alert you to something. Around here we have very diverse views but we don't accept racism. Racism has no rational manifestations, period. Look at the Rules. You can take your disgusting and morally bankrupt ideas back to your KKK forum.

No reason to get personal either (as much as it pains me to type that).

Be civil everyone

Perhaps the arrogance that leads you to call yourselves the "People of God" fuels the so-called anti-Semitism. God's Chosen? Oh please. Step down off of your pedestal.

Do you, or any jew, honestly believe that there is some global anti-jewish conspiracy? Or have you asked yourselves why anti-Semitism seems to be so widespread? Could it be something about the jews themselves that created these feelings in Gentiles?



So the Old Testament is accurate? Proof, please.

Rumblestrip,

I am not Jewish, I have ancestors that are. There are technicalities that I don't quite understand about that.

ANYWAY.

I don't understand why some people get so riled up when people refer them selves as the People of God. Why does that offend you? I guess I will have to further explain myself before anti religious or rather anti semitic people jump all over me for stating a rather common knowledge fact about the Jewish culture and the Christian faith:

According to the Torah(the first 5 books of the old testament), the lineage of the Jewish people being called the People of God starts from Noah, after the flood, because God found Noah to be a true man of God and spared him and his family....A few generations later, Abraham, the Father of All Nations and his wife Sara, couldn't have children. Sara was supposedly barren. So Abraham (by custom) impregnated her handmaiden and had Ishmeal, his first son but technically out of wedlock. After that, Sara finally got pregnant and gave Abraham a son Isaac. Sara became jealous of Ishmeal. Abraham had the handmaiden and ishmeal leave. Ishmeal began the Arab line and Isaac continued the jewish line. That's where the whole middle east Muslim-Jewish conflict started.

The old testament prophecy books told of the messiah that would some day come and free man from the original sin in the garden of eden. Though the prophecies spoke of a man that would be persecuted and peaceful. It also spoke of a King that would defeat Satan and evil. These speak of the first and second coming of Christ. When Jesus came, the Jews were under Roman control and the pharisees misinterpreted the Prophecies and thought the Second coming (a king that would free the Jewss) would actually be the first coming. That's why they didn't believe him and handed Jesus over to the Romans for Crucifiction. The followers of Jesus, christians, are the third sect that believe in the God of Abraham.

The difference is, the Christians didn't think you had to follow the strict laws of Moses, being circumcised and not eating pork and the such. They believed ANYONE could be a Christian, by faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

If you read the Bible you will see that the Jews are still waiting on the Messiah to come and though they are out of step with the Good News, God still holds them close to his heart because they obey the LAW of moses and recognize the miracles the God of Abraham did for them, saving them from the Egyptians.

Though they are the chosen people of God, the are not the BRIDE OF CHRIST and therefore will not have mansions of gold in heaven and they're names are not written in the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE(thoughs that believe that Jesus was the messiah). But they will be in heaven, BECAUSE they both worship the God of Abraham.

Jews do not have some grand divine superiority. The title of Children of God is nothing more than a historical reference to the God of Abraham.

I'm sorry if that got long winded.

ONE LAST THING

I do believe that there is a conspiracy against the followers of God, not specifically against the Jews though. I base this on the Prophecy books of the Bible.

And as proof is concerned to all that I've said, it's a matter of faith.

How can you read through the course of this debate, including the links provided by Christine, and ask that question? It was an anti semitic document that initiated this thread and fueled it, not Jewish paranoia.

Have any of you ever read the the religious books the jewish faith gos by, its sick, disgusitung, and very racist, these same doctrines are what are followed to a tee by some people in this world i would rather forget.

Can you name any of those books? Do you have anything to back up your ludicrous statements?

Why don't you cite some sources? Without them, it appears you are trying to incite us against a group of people most of us have never met.
-------------------------
This WHOLE thread is a prime example of why making blanket generalizations about any group shows lack of critical insight, at best, and plain ignorant hatred, at worst.

Perhaps in your opinion, Nileriver, but if you are going to call a religion sick, disgusting, and racist, you'd better have some sources to back those claims up, and they should take into account time and context.

Look, i am not going to go and find a website with the torah on it for you, you can do that yourself, here is just some lines in it about all people that are not jewish, things like anything they own belongs to you, they are human cattle, lie to them about everything jewish, when god comes every jew shall have 2300 gential slaves, just stuff like that, if you want to support people that think like that go ahead, i am getting the idea most people here are just trying to get attention anymore myself. Come to think of it, most religions usually end up makeing bigots of people, just a sad side effect.

You've GOT to be kidding me!

The Torah doesn't say any of that! The Torah is the FIRST FIVE BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT. You obviously (1) haven't read the Bible and know absolutely nothing on this subject, or (2) have been feed this line of garbage and Know absolutely nothing independently on the subject.

The WHOLE point of a debate is to present FACTS in support of your arguments. You should not be offended to support your opinion when someone asks you to.

If the proof exists, I would think you would be more than happy to provide it rather than allow us to retain our impression that your previous post was only to made to upset us.

Here's a link to the Jewish Laws:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm


edited to a more informative link

Nileriver, that's a cop-out. You made the statement. I should hope that you have a good reason for hating an entire group of people, and I should also hope that you have taken into account the time period that the book was written in and juxtaposed that culture with many of the others existing at the same time.



How many modern day Jews do you know of that think like that?
...and attention for what? That makes no sense.



Atheism can do the very same thing, Nileriver. Any strictly embraced ideology can, but not all people who embrace a given ideology become bigots, and I don't see how you derived that from this thread.