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lawman
Is it right for us to further create chips that will be implanted in humans?

As many people may have heard by now, science has brought forth a computer chip that may be implanted in humans and can be used for many purposes and for no doubt tracking. The question is, is this morally right. I am confused as to why they are doing this in the first place and what their ultimate goals are. Does not the creation of such things invade the right to privacy? I just don't know about it all. Feel free to post your views on why or why not this implantable chip is right.
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Mega Gigan
I personally think it's right. I mean yeah, they are going to track us (like they don't already...). Think about this will you, that somebody who has the chip, robs a bank. Well, since they were tracking him, they can catch him in no time. Also it is good when people are injured. If somebody gets badly injured and nobody is around they can press a panic button (no, not to the car:D) that is on the chip itself (they have a low tech version of this for children already) and they can send emergency care people over fast. So is it moral? I think so, what isn't moral about helping the community and helping individuals?
Mike
Sure, it is right for us to create computer chips that will be implanted in humans.

It's all about capitalism, though-- if someone will buy it, go ahead and make it. happy.gif

I think that for parents it should be an option. It should be their decision as to whether or not a chip is implanted in their children. The chips should remain active until the child either turns 18, or completes parent-funded college. At that time, it should be the up to the individual as to whether or not the keep the chip.

As for the chip being required, I think it is a very bad idea.

Assuming that the chips would be used to investigate crimes, and they would, I am against this for another reason: marketing.

If these chips could track our movements, companies would certainly use our "patterns" to market to us. They could trace our routes to and from stores, work, and home.

Home Depot could buy a list of people who don't shop at Lowe's and solicit them. Sure, this doesn't sound that bad, after all, Home Depot could offer discounts. But I don't want any companies knowing where I go, and when I go there.

Our employers could also find out that we're not actually sick, we're just at the beach. cool.gif

The government would also find nice convenient uses for this. Local government could argue that they need to view the driving habits of everyone in their town in order to do a "road study". Is this a good use? Yes. Is it something they should be allowed to do? Certainly not.

Sure, you'd probably be able to "opt-out" of marketing and government studies, but how can they assure that you've actually been opted-out?

Mike
Jaime
Was it right in the 60's when the FBI was authorized by Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, to track and bug Dr. Martin Luther King, for his possible "subversive" ideas? We all know now that Dr. King was in no way subversive. There was no other reason than ignorant fear that prompted the administration to do that to such a great leader.

Could you imagine what would happen if these chips were around then? Would civil rights be as advanced? Those chips will allow government fear and ingnorance to run rampant and keep good people down.

As the technology advances, hopefully a legal infrastructure will be established to prevent the government from getting any access to it unless authorized by the person designated by the chip's owner or the parent or guardian of a minor. I don't want it to be OK to turn the information over to a Court or investigating agency under subpeona or court order. Nor do I want it mandated that a chip be implanted in me or my children.
Mega Gigan
Mike, why would the government sell the information to companies? They don't really need money, since they tax us. I think the only people who would get the information is the people who are doing the tracking. That's illogical for them to sell the tracking information.
Also, Jamie that's way off topic. That's invading privacy. People would know that they have the chip in them. They wouldn't put the chip in a person and not tell them about it. Jamie you also said something about "Government fear and ignorance" can you define that? Also, the question is "is it morally right?" not "should we do it?"
Mike
In the state of Illinois, they sell all of the information you give them when you get a license to drive with exception to you social security number.

In order to "opt-out", you need a court order.

They are greedy, plain and simple.

Mike
Mega Gigan
QUOTE(Mike @ Oct 13 2002, 05:07 PM)
In the state of Illinois, they sell all of the information you give them when you get a license to drive with exception to you social security number.

In order to "opt-out", you need a court order.


So Illinois makes America? That is only in one state that I have heard of. Also who do they sell the information too?
Jaime
Where to begin, Mega Gigan? I disagree with you in SO many ways.

First, thanks to Mike for providing proof the government does sell private information. It is precisely this reason I stated that government fear and ignorance is a reason these chips would used against us. It is in NO way off topic. I'll use the state of Georgia as an example, since you seem to have some bias against Illinois. (Although if you'd like another Illinois government ignorance story, check out what they're doing with the I-Pass program).

Georgia requires people to submit a thumb or fingerprint to get a driver's license. They have no reason to do that to an innocent citizen other than ignorant fear that I MIGHT be a bad person, maybe, someday. I resent the government infringing upon our civil liberties in the name of safety. It's the republican version of the environmental debate (R: "Oh, you're not with us on this? Then you must be in favor of crime!" or D: "You don't agree with our enviromental policy, then you must hate the earth!")

Next, I NEVER said people would be implanted with chips without their knowledge. I said the government should not mandate it (meaning make a law we all get one).

Finally, MG, lawman presented a two fold question. One, is it right and two, is it morally right? I answered the first part of the question.

You seem to have a lot more faith in our government that me. You seem to think that the government is not interested in collecting more money and that the government is not interested in invading privacy. I don't trust my government that much.
Madtown
Who would have these chip implants. People on parole?
Mega Gigan
I'll give you that fact the lawman did ask two questions. I didn't realize that. I have no biased against Illinois, it just SEEMED that since Mike mentioned one state in the US, it must account for America. Also to note that no company who has tracking systems set up has sold information to companies (Like OnStar).

"Next, I NEVER said people would be implanted with chips without their knowledge. I said the government should not mandate it (meaning make a law we all get one)."

I never have claimed that you said that. But you acted like bugging somebody without them knowing is the same thing as putting a tracking chip in somebody with them knowing.

"You seem to have a lot more faith in our government that me. You seem to think that the government is not interested in collecting more money and that the government is not interested in invading privacy. I don't trust my government that much."

Well, I do trust the government and that they are doing what they can to keep us safe.

Oh and I am quoting like " " that because I am not an expert on the quote that is provided here.
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Madtown
QUOTE(lawman @ Oct 12 2002, 08:26 PM)
Is it right for us to further create chips that will be implanted in humans?
.  I am confused as to why they are doing this in the first place and what their ultimate goals are.

That's my question exactly.

Why, and what for? I don't like it.
Mega Gigan
Madtown, you are lawman also?
Mike
No, Madtown is not lawman... huh.gif

I think she is agreeing with lawman's comments...

If I'm right here, no government agency or company has publicly said they want to do this, except for the makers of the chip. And even they say it is up to the individual.

We're speaking entirely in hypotheticals (which I'm told by Dictionary.com isn't actually a word).

Aren't we?

Mike
Shild
There is another use for implanted chips which has not been stated yet. According to Discover Magazine, a scientist (can't say the name or university, don't have the issue with me now) has implanted a device into his own arm. This device allows him to control different machines he has modified, like a wheelchair and a robotic arm, by controlling his thought patterns.
The implications are clear. Disabled people can benefit enormously from this. However, such an implantation does not neccessarily involve tracking, and so is not nearly as problematic as implanted tracking devices.
I believe that tracking chips and control chips, like those I described, should be treated the same way; if a person is disabled, that person can apply to recieve a tracking chip, in case s/he needs help, and/or a control chip, to make up for the disability.
I say "apply for" because I believe the service should be provided by the government, but not required.
Jaime
Shild, you present some very interesting ideas. I hadn't heard of this other kind of implant chips that help the disabled function. That sounds like it could be very useful. I agree that these types are different because they can not be tracked.

I must disagree with you on the accessibilty of the tracking chips, however. I can not condone government aid of this sort, even for disabled people. I'll spare you my usual rant of not wanting more government. I just see this as having the potential for the usual bureaucratic mess the government always creates. 99% of the time, the private sector can handle something much better than the government.
Madtown
I would think chip implants for the disabeled could be covered by medical insurance.

MT
Alan Wood
My son has had a computer permenantly grafted to his right hand for a while now.


Regards........Alan.
otseng
Recently I lost my wallet. It was such a nuisance closing all my accounts and getting replacement cards (esp drivers license).

What would be nice is if all your cards can be replaced by a chip implanted in your arm or hand. So, you'd never be able to lose it (well, almost never).

I don't know if I'd personally do it, but it'd be interesting to have the option of having it.

However, for the pre-trib rapture millenialist conservative Christians, this would mark the age of the anti-christ and the end of the world.
Madtown
QUOTE(Alan Wood @ Oct 16 2002, 05:16 AM)
My son has had a computer permenantly grafted to his right hand for a while now.
Regards........Alan.

This may be a stupid question. Would a hearing implant be somewhat like the chip implant
you're all talking about?

MT
Alan Wood
Madtown.


Its my little joke.
I cant get him off the computer especially when I want to use it.

Regards.....Alan
Madtown
Oh dear wub.gif , but I'm still thinking that a chip implant to help the disabeled

must be somewhat like a hearing implant.

MT
Mike
My cat has a microchip embedded between his shoulder blades. The chip offers no tracking ability whatsoever.

The chip is registered with a national service that maintains a database.

I was actually given a demonstration by someone at the animal welfare league.

A reader, much like an airport metal detector, is swept over the animal from front to back, and if it has a chip, the detector spits back a number.

The technician can then take that number to the database, and find out who owns the cat.

It's great for pet owners, and I think it would be great for parents. It would also be great for hospitals to get a patient's medical history if the patient was unconscious.

But I still don't think it should be required, nor do I think the government should ever get involved.

Mike
Mapk Xync
This may be opening a can of worms, but I'm currently of the opinion that outlawing a technology is never the way to go. If you have objections to side effects of the technology then influence the developers to enhance the technology to answer your objections. If the government is pushing a questionable technology then loby them not to. If they do it anyway, then chalk it up to living in the USA and if the price is too high, move.

I can think of loads of things that could be automated with the use of a chip like this, from finally having those Star Trek doors that would open when I walk up but not when that burglar does, to never having to carry a wallet or keys again. I'm all for this technology, although I'd probably prefer a titanium wrist band with the chip than having it implanted in me.
Mega Gigan
QUOTE(Mapk Xync @ Oct 20 2002, 10:11 PM)
This may be opening a can of worms, but I'm currently of the  opinion that outlawing a technology is never the way to go.

Outlawing a technology is never the way to go? That's a new...ah view. But I personally find that wrong. Sometimes we DO have to outlaw technology. If it got so advanced that a person could shoot another person through a wall, would you want that gun to be on the market? Or how about a software program that would break into the government, and shred their computer systems? If we don't outlaw some aspects of technology then it could get out of hand.
kimpossible
The price society would pay for having computer chips implanted is enormous. Sure, of course this thing benefits many people in many different ways, but the cost? Losing a little bit of your freedom. Does it not strike anyone as slightly Big Brother-ish? Suddenly, the government knows whee you are? Even if they say its not for tracking, how would you know? I dont like the idea that I am already a criminal, without having done anything wrong.

Its disgusting that we are more into the conveinence of something, even if it affects our freedom and liberty.
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