No name calling please.

Rattlesnake: I think that our differing opinions have a lot to do with our ages. I wrote:
You wrote:

No, the fifties and sixties were not perfect. The war in Vietnam was taking its toll, and there were a lot of assassinations of leaders we couldn't afford to lose. There were fewer opportunities for women, and we had a Senator looking for commies and pinkos in government, in Hollywood, and everywhere else we could think of. The civil rights movement was hard and met with a lot of resistance.

There were, however, fewer out-of-wedlock babies. The murder rate wasn't as high. Women received more respect in public. You could take your child into a store or on a bus and not hear eff this and eff that. People were, on the whole, more civil with each other. We hadn't gotten yet to the "me first" phase of our society.

And as far as spousal (and child) abuse, racism, and substance abuse, it's still around, only much more so. Some people don't know how to handle all this "freedom" that relaxed morals promise.

"Every generation of Americans needs to know that freedom consists not in doing what we like, but having the right to do what we ought."
--Pope John Paul II

(edited)

Personally, I feel that infidelity is a big deal, although as has been said there are far worse things. Dishonesty is far worse, one reason that I don't object to "open relationships"- if only for the threat of disease it is far worse to lie about cheating than it is to cheat.

I have a friend who recently admitted to starting up a relationship with another woman besides his wife. Since I'm friends with both couples involved, I've been haunted by my personal responsibilities in this situation. While it may not involve me personally, I have to wonder whether I have a responsibility of telling my friend that his wife is cheating on him, or my other friend that her husband is cheating on her.

So my question is, does anyone have any responsibilities towards honesty to all parties involved besides just those committing the adultery? Do I, through the bonds of friendship, owe my friends the truth about their spouses actions?

I think that's something that you have to guage for yourself based on your own ideology and based on the type of friendship that you have with each of these individuals.

Tobyn, that's really a topic for a new thread, at least in my opinion, though I don't speak for the mods. Please start one if you wish.

This definitely relates to the topic, but probably should have its own topic if you would like your questions answered directly. And if you're looking for advice, I'd recommend you put it in Casual Conversation.

Carry on...

I posted a thread for Tobyne's question (hope you don't mind, Tobyne). I've been in this situation many times.

Infidelity and friendship

How serious are we supposed to take adultery?


Well, it depends on one's own set of morals.

For men, perhaps, (in many cases) adultery takes
place to satisfy a purely physical, or biological urge.
Maybe that is the lesser of two evils (no real attachment).

For women, perhaps (in many cases) it is for emotional
reasons. So, it is more dangerous, because she may have
real feelings for the other guy, that are not just physical.

Regardless of the circumstances, it is a very complex
social dilemma.

I'm not so sure I see why this is so complex. If you have an agreement with your spouse, then it's probably fine. If you don't, then you're probably doing it for selfish reasons, and that's wrong. It's only a gray area if your relationship is such that you want to keep it going but wouldn't be able to do so without some extramarital 'enhancement'. If this is the case, then you need to seriously about it--is it really for the better of the relationship? Or is it just because 'you want to'? If it is for the better of the relationship--why haven't you discussed it with your spouse?

I find myself very out of touch with the mainstream on this issue, yet I'm not sure exactly why that's the case. I find having an affair inconceivable for me, but that's clearly not the norm. But shouldn't it be?

If you think that what you see on TV is "mainstream", then we're ALL out of it. I think the vast majority of people are more boring and not so interested in an affair.

Instead they divorce

It's complex in that there are many reasons why people
commit adultery. There is no cut and dried explanation.
Perhaps the institution of marriage goes against the
nature of human beings, and that is why this phenomenon
occurs so frequently....

Just a thought about "the vow" (and I am ready to get my butt kicked for saying this).

Doesn't it work both ways?

If one spouse simply quits trying to keep the other attracted to him/her, is she/he not breaking the vow? Look, being a couple is tough enough, when one of the couple finds "that" aspect of it unappealing, should the other be forced into chastity?

That seems the larger sin.

(Ready to except the appropriate SMACKS!)

I don't remember anything in my wedding vows which indicated that I would stay forever hot. People age, get pregnant with stretch marks, become ill eventually. For better, for worse is the oath.
What exactly is the sin involved in that? The spouse had the bad sense to age, get wrinkles, gain weight, get pregnant? That is, in fact, GASP! An inevitablity.

That's something that needs to be taken on a case by case basis. Why doesn't the partner find it appealing? Are there things being done that the partner might be uncomfortable with? Is there unbalance when it comes to selfishness in intimacy? Counselling should be the first step. Even divorce could be tried-- no need to justify an affair based on that example.

I originally voted that affairs were destructive to a healthy relationship, but after going through the various debates on the thread, I have to agree with opinion that in some cases it may be okay -- in open relationships. If it requires dishonesty and sneaking around, I stick with my original opinion that they are destructive to healthy relationships. If you have to sneak and lie, there are more problems going on in the relationship than simply wanting sex, IMO.

OK, so where did I say that it had to do with age, weight, strech marks, or any of that?

Some couples have a partner within them that, for one reason or another, finds sex unimportant.

I volunteered as a counciler for a support group for divorced and seperated people for a couple of years. It amazed me how many couples had a partner that assumed that, once the honeymoon was over, the other partner should go a lifetime without sex again.

Who's cheating whom?

Counsling only works when both partners agree to it.

It may be the "cheating" partner that is truley the most honest of the two.

(ready to get my butt kicked again)

I inferred it from Level of attractiveness changes throughout a marriage.
If you're referring to sex, and one partner is withholding it indefinitely, I would certainly agree with you in that instance...that would be a violation of the agreement, as sexual activity is implicit in the vows.
Of course, there would be other problems within that type of marriage that supersede sex. The person cheating is never "the honest one", unless they are literally honest to their spouse. Sneaking around, lying, and having sex with another person is never an honest action, regardless of the state of one's relationship at home.

Agreed, and so ends my stay on this thread

Is 'yes' too short an answer? I am still searching for the clause in the vows that allows transgression under certain circumstances. I think this would fall under the 'for worse', which is part of the deal that was signed up for. I believe 'until death do us part' indicates the time at which the vows no longer apply.

A married man may have no intention of
ever cheating on his wife, and then he
accidentally meets someone and falls in love
(he still loves his wife, and would never want
to hurt her, but he finds himself caring for another
woman...it's human nature, and right or wrong, it happens)

That is why, IMO, the institution of marriage needs to be
amended. AND, people who do not intend to have children
should wait until they are well into their 30's before attempting
such a union. Men and women go through a lot of changes
as they age, and a lot of times they grow apart. If they wait
longer before they get married, their chances of having a
lasting union are better.

All of those things are a direct result of denying our feelings, and being taught that your only supposed to have one lover for your entire life. Remember fornication is also frowned upon by the church. To even suggest something to your spouse would be marital suicide. Like someone said before you lie to spare them the hurt, more than CYA in a loving relationship.
Personally I don't think there should be connection to love and sex since both can exist without the other. I see marriage as way of telling someone that you will always be there for them, to take care of their needs and wants because of your love for them. I see sex as a way of taking pleasure in your beauty, wether it be physical or emotional, and want to cherish it by messing up your hair and making you sweaty. (jk about the last part.)
In alot of relationships, including my own, one side expresses that that do not want their spouse to be with anyone else, and their love for them and thought of losing them keeps them faithful or from disobeying them.

Nothing says you have to act on these feelings. Falling in love with someone else is one thing, actually having an affair is completely another. Especially if, as stated, the person never wants to hurt his wife--this alone dictates the proper course of action.

That is true. The point that I'm trying to make is that it
is human nature to be attracted to more than one person
of the opposite sex. You can develop feelings for someone
even if you are married. Acting on those feelings is what
is morally unacceptable, but having the feelings is a natural
occurrence.

Adultery is definitely not a sin to me. It's a very personal matter that has nothing to do with the nature of God. I would rather see it as a moral breaking, with its destructive consequences on people. Should I be confronted with it as an individual, I would have to make the choice to do it or not, according to my own inner values and not with the words of God.

I chose the 'sin' option because I thought nighttimer was referring to the breaking of a moral code, in this instance. I'm not certain, but this site is about 35 percent Atheist, and that would really skew the results if the 'sin' option was intended to be a sin against God.

I didn't see any other option that fit. 'Destructive to a healthy relationship' was the closest, but what 'healthy' relationship? If the person feels compelled to lie and cheat it can't be that healthy to begin with. Of course, perceptions of adultery are going to vary depending on the nature of the marriage, and the culture. In much of Asia a man is almost expected to have a mistress, and France and Italy (from what I've seen, but you know better than I) appear to have almost a 'don't ask, don't tell' sort of policy.

Well, from what I understand about my own culture is that people having affairs are keeping it 'very' private. At least, that's how it is in Northern France. I couldn't say about Southerners.

Here is an anecdote you might find interesting though. When the Monica Lewinsky affair came into the light, many people here cheered and laughed at it. There was a feeling of amused mockery about the whole thing. It was funny to see that some people didn't actually condemn the act of adultery of Bill Clinton, but they were more like blaming him because he had been 'caught'. Most of the population thought that the story was immoral in the end, yet they couldn't understand why it was a scandal. Here in France, politicians are known, if not 'expected' to have mistresses. François Mitterrand was a fine example of that and I suspect that Chirac is too.

I wonder if it's equally as "cheered" on or "expected" for women to have affairs too?

I would like to see humanity get to that point. would do greatly to "equalize" the playing field and save a few more women from being stoned to death, jailed, ostracized and belittled as whores and well...you get the idea.

women TOO fantacize plenty, get bored as well in long term relationships even though they love their partners. Just be a fly on the wall when we get together for a "girl's night" out. lol. It's natural. I don't believe it's a sin. Lust will always "be in the heart" (jimmy carter ) I do believe it can harm relationships if the partners find out, depending on the forgiveness factor it can end a relationship or change it.

Well women are often less likely to have affairs, because they have a different biological makeup than men. It's the woman's instinct to find a permananet mate who will be able to protect her and her children, but man's instinct is to try to impregnate as many women as possible.

Hi everyone. New member here.

My take on adultery is its never acceptable, and it's always wrong. If you find the need to go with someone else, you probably should get divorced and move on first.

hmmmm...

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMor...es_rodgers.html
That little myth about repopulating the world is becoming more and more disproven as culture lightens-up more on its attitudes regarding females and the repression of their sexuallity. Take aware the fear and freedom begins.

I think that the rise in the number of women who are unfaithfull has more to do with culture than biology. If we were truly a sexually free culture then it would be equally "expected" for women to cheat as well. Not that it should by either sex but just that it will happen. We are not. Us girls have always been "told" that we cannot act on our sexually for fear of physical punishment (anywhere outside the western world) or by what jealous husbands/boyfriends might do in retaliation OR the stigma of labels (more harsh than our counterparts) that it's "just not nice."

Imagine had the shoe been on the other foot? If women were the dominant sex? release the girls from the fear and they'll behave just as the boys.

Don't get me wrong though, cheating by either sex is not a nice thing to do.

I have had carnal thoughts of women when walking through the mall or in the local supermarket's. I have even had daydreams of women as I worked or studied, but I have yet to commit adultery! Hey, I'm single guy, with youth and a active hormones still kicking!
But I believe that playing around on the side, does affect relationships and if I were not a bit God fearing,I still have to say,"IT", is wrong! Some people don't care and others don't have a clue. The whole idea is like a claymore set in a path waiting for someone to stumble in. WHY, play the side lines in a relationship. It doesn't do anything for your dedication or focus, and even demoralises your character and blemishes what you stand for!
I learned a few things in the Service, and even being around beautiful female soliders(They're all beautiful, trust me), Your character and how you present yourself is very important, I learned that a Red Shiny apple is sweet,but it is only sweet as you think it is,if it is within your grasp and not from a distance! Well I am rambling again, I guess the "Committee will eventually boot me from this site!

Happy Turkey Day and Thankful for the Men&Women Serving our Country!

There is nothing wrong with adultry. I'm married.. not buried!

Are you suggesting that a married person who looks at temptation but doesn't give in is DEAD?

Marriage vows are supposed to mean something. There's that old adage, "A man is as good as his word." Form your own conclusion.

I am curious--does this run both ways? ie, are you equally as unconcerned if your spouse is enjoying this sexual freedom, or is this activity reserved for you? Also, I'm assuming you would also then be equally anxious to share the tales of these activities with your spouse--or is it just the activities that are buried, not you?

I will say that if in fact this is an open agreement with your spouse, then I have no problem with it, as only married couples can determine for themselves how they want to conduct their relationship. I don't consider cases such as this 'adultery'; the term, to me, implies deceit. I've never felt deceit to be the proper basis for a relationship.

the concept of adultery is disturbing. is it a sin? well it is according to all the religions. but i feel that it is so much more than just a sin. it's one temptation that can destroy entire families and hurt so many people. what's more disturbing is how naturally we are shrugging it off. i watched a show on tv the other day, and it said how scientists are trying to find out if adultery is in our genes because apparently only tapeworms/flatworms are the only monogamous organisms. it also said how 80% of the marriages have atleast one incident of adultery.

i really think the media is promoting adultery. soaps, sitcoms, talkshows- they all show it so many times that it seems like THE way of life. people who commit adultery think it is natural. a married woman in the same tv show said how she does not mind dating married men or being unfaithful, because she thinks spending life with one person is an impossibility. i cant make myself see the justification behind spoiling relationships.

my father cheated on my mother. he was like my hero. my parents went out for 6 years and were married for 21 when he decided he wanted to have fun. my mother cant get over it and for me- i cant trust my boyfriend. i have no reason to not but i'm so insecure thinking that if my dad, my hero could- anyone can.

Clearly adultery is morally wrong. I will not adress it being a 'sin' as in my humble opinion, 'sin' is an artificial construct based on the anachronistic verbiage of a 2000 year old book. That is, however, not the topic of debate here.

I admit, and am not proud of it, I have cheated on girlfriends in the past. Not often or regularily by any stretch, and I have remained faithful through more relationships than I have strayed.

However I have always believed that if and when I actually get married, that will be the end of my philandering ways. marriage is a promise to a person of loyalty and honour, a promise I intend to keep.

Most adulteries are unplanned. People who have been unfaithful have said that they never planned on doing it. They even regret it, often so much that you don't know who the victim is. A marriage is a lot to lose, nothing good can come of it. This is perhaps what makes it easy to forgive a cheating partner and sometimes stops it from being a big deal. The cheated partner knows that it was not planned, it probably rose out of a sudden whim, frustation or boredom.

Hmm, my thoughts on adultery...

First, I consider it to be a deal breaker in a marriage. One of the most important things to me about marriage is a sense of trust. I give my trust without question, but if my wife were to give me reason to doubt that trust then things could never be the same again. She feels the same way as far as my actions go. I won't consider it a sin, because sin is a meaningless word to me -- I'll let it go at that.

Secondly, I believe that each couple is different and they have different boundaries and rules. If two consenting adults can agree to have an "open relationship" and they can make it work, more power to them. Personally I'm a little too jealous for that type of thing, but I can't and won't speak for others.

Thirdly, I believe that matters between two married adults are not the business of anyone but those two people. I do not think that anyone has the right or the duty to speak out or scrutinize another relationship, in fact that disgusts me. Kobe Bryant's disgressions are between him and his wife, unless they prove to be criminal. I believe that the Monica Lewinsky incident is between Bill and Hillary and them alone. While I would never consider engaging in adultery, I cannot and will not fault others for doing so because it is none of my business.

Finally, I believe that adultery should only be considered as public domain when used as grounds for divorce proceedings.

Well here's my thoughts on cheating.
If someone where ever to cheat on me, I would think that there was something that the other person needed that I couldn't provide. I'd let them go because I wouldn't want them to be unhappy in a relationship where there is something lacking. I'd learn from my mistakes and try to become a better man for it and move on. Although I wouldn't take that person back because I feel that I couldn't trust them anymore, and without trust there isn't much of a relationship left.

Agreed REV. If someone decided to cheat on an inicent person like me, i would just let the person go. Obviously there was something that i couldnt provide. Oh and not to get this post closed or anything but according to the ten commandments it is a sin.

I firmly believe that trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship. Without a strong bond of trustworthiness between partners, all outside factors become tainted. For this reason, I think infidelity is unacceptable in all its forms (intoxication is no justification in my mind).