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Platypus
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 23 2003, 08:54 AM)
First off, let me explain that there are two types of grammarians in the world: proscriptive and descriptive.

Proscriptive types tell everyone what to do. Descriptive types look at what people are doing with language.

I believe the word you're looking for is prescriptive. To proscribe is to prohibit, so a "proscriptive type" (actually an instance or representative of that type, since a type itself cannot act) would tell people what not to do.
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AuthorMusician
Platypus,

Kudos! You are technically correct.

When grammarians talk, they have a special jargon just like any other profession. The prescriptive term is more accurate than proscriptive when discussing the establishment of rules. Yet the professional jargon tends (or at least did when I studied grammar) to lump both the "do this" and "do not do this" into one term.

A cursory search on the web showed me that the three-way split has become more common.

So, you're proscriptive by saying "don't end a sentence in a preposition" and prescriptive by saying "use a comma before a coordinating conjunction that joins two major clauses," which of course becomes proscriptive if phrased "do not forget to use . . . ."

Either way, the establishment of authority is the goal. Sometimes this is necessary and appreciated, while other times it's just a pain in the whazoo that leads to clumsy and stilted language.

Another way to look at English grammar (as opposed to French Academy grammar) is that it is a constantly changing thing. What you learned in high school and/or college will likely change in some manner during your lifetime. Part of this is due to the descriptive nature of enough English grammarians to accept the ways of current writers.

Novelists and journalists drive this situation by taking a rule that often doesn't make sense and throwing it out the window. For example, that use of a comma with a coordinating conjunction--most journalists and their editors don't do this unless at least one of the major clauses is also a complex construction.

In effect, descriptive grammar strives to make sense in the real world. Oftentimes a rule just doesn't apply to the situation at hand. An example of this is the split infinitive, as in "to boldly go . . .."

As it turns out, this is a rule for Latin that was arbitrarily imposed on English. Although English has a Latin root, it also--and more originally--has a Germanic root. And so, to openly display my contempt for this arbitrary rule, I shall proceed to delightfully split my infinitives--and get away with it, too.

But thanks for the update. Sure looks like we have a subset of the grammar police these days.

edited to snidely add:

In informal language, which is what I generally use, types can act:

QUOTE
type, n., v., typed, typ·ing.

3. Informal. a person, regarded as reflecting or typifying a certain line of work, environment, etc.: a couple of civil service types. - Webster's unabridged electronic dictionary, 1999
tongue.gif
Wertz
Now that you mention is, AM, sentences ending with prepositions bother me - especially in text. I don't find them as bad, for some reason, in speech - unless they're entirely unnecessary ("Where are you going to?" makes me crazy). Also, I like commas with coordinating conjunctions. I also like (as many will have noticed) the use of parentheses - and dashes.

Another peeve, though not exactly grammatical, is a bad habit presumably invented by typing teachers and passed on to their hapless students for no good reason: double-spacing after a period (or question mark or exclamation point or interrobang). What's the point? It contributes nothing to legibility - newspapers and magazines don't do it, books don't do it - I don't do it in my posts (nor do many others here) and our contributions are just as readable as anyone else's. All double-spacing does is take up more space. It's pointless - and every time you do it, it puts you one step closer to RSI. biggrin.gif
Amlord
I knew there was a reason, Wertz... I double space between sentences!

By the way, what is RSI?
Wertz
QUOTE(Amlord @ Jul 23 2003, 03:03 PM)
By the way, what is RSI?

RSI = Repetitive Strain Injury (along the lines of carpal tunnel syndrome or tendonitis).
kmsouthern
QUOTE(Wertz @ Jul 23 2003, 05:32 PM)
Another peeve, though not exactly grammatical, is a bad habit presumably invented by typing teachers and passed on to their hapless students for no good reason: double-spacing after a period (or question mark or exclamation point or interrobang). What's the point? It contributes nothing to legibility - newspapers and magazines don't do it, books don't do it - I don't do it in my posts (nor do many others here) and our contributions are just as readable as anyone else's. All double-spacing does is take up more space. It's pointless - and every time you do it, it puts you one step closer to RSI. biggrin.gif

Well, Wertz, apparently the MLA would beg to differ on the double spacing issue (APA uses one space after a period, however)!

http://www.as.ysu.edu/~english/mlastyle.html

QUOTE
Follow standard spacing after punctuation.  That is, after a comma or colon, leave one space, but after a period, leave two spaces.
tongue.gif wink2.gif

Okay and because I'm such a nit-picker I decided to go the source (MLA website itself) and lo and behold...

QUOTE
How many spaces should I leave after a period or other concluding mark of punctuation?

Publications in the United States today usually have the same spacing after a punctuation mark as between words on the same line. Since word processors make available the same fonts used by typesetters for printed works, many writers, influenced by the look of typeset publications, now leave only one space after a concluding punctuation mark. In addition, most publishers' guidelines for preparing a manuscript on disk ask authors to type only the spaces that are to appear in print.

Because it is increasingly common for papers and manuscripts to be prepared with a single space after all punctuation marks, this spacing is shown in the examples in the MLA Handbook and the MLA Style Manual. As a practical matter, however, there is nothing wrong with using two spaces after concluding punctuation marks unless an instructor or editor requests that you do otherwise.


Hrmph! shifty.gif I have always been taught that it is correct to use two spaces, not by typing teachers, but in English courses (from grade school to high school) - when we had to type papers, we ALWAYS had to use the double space after a period and I'd always been told that was MANDATORY (as in, if you single space, you are WRONG)! *boggle* wacko.gif

See my above post...I LOVE commas, elipses, and parentheses (and dashes, too...I didn't mention them, though they're everywhere in my posts smile.gif) - aren't we just cool!
AuthorMusician
I remember learning about the two spaces after a concluding punctuation mark in typing class. It became a habit until an editor told me to stop doing that. Why? She didn't know, but guess I don't care. Now it's all single spaces--another habit replaced an old one.

Maybe I read this somewhere or maybe it just makes sense, but I've put values on punctuation:

Commas are cheap, like pennies. When in doubt, throw one in and make a wish.

Parentheses are a bit more expensive, like quarters. Commas can be used instead if the sentence element isn't a far jump from the overall thought.

Semicolons are half dollars and indicate a college education. Most often they aren't needed; however, if you want to string thoughts together or make long, involved lists--have at it.

Dashes are dollars or arrows that cost a buck each.

Exclamation points are five bucks each! Some people spend like there's no tomorrow! Watch out!!

Question marks are standard equipment and don't cost anything.

Same goes for brackets in quoted text/speech and colons.

The game then becomes controlling my writing overhead.

I have another pet peeve: colleges that use two or more style guides. MLA and APA were mentioned, and if both are in use, this just confuses students and makes their jobs that much harder.

My belief is that an editor's job and a college's job are similar in this respect. English is difficult enough the way it is. Why introduce needless doubt and confusion?

I suppose internal power struggles between egos have something to do with it. Get two prescriptive/proscriptive grammarians in the same room and watch the fur fly. One space! Two spaces!

Eh, who cares. Sometimes I wish we had something like the French Academy and only one style guide.
Wertz
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 24 2003, 08:59 AM)
Sometimes I wish we had something like the French Academy and only one style guide.

Yeah, but even then, Mike would complain about the use of couriers-el rather than courier-el. laugh.gif
kimpossible
I really hate it when people dont realize a word isnt a real word. When I was in London, there was a store by where I was staying called "Majestical Lips". I kid you not. And my friend said that her store was doing a promotional thing for the employees, and used the word "genuiness".

Learning French has made me realize how my own basic knowledge of English grammar is sorely lacking.
Curmudgeon
QUOTE
I don't give a (expletive deleted) for a man that can only spell a word one way.
            -- Mark Twain


I have always enjoyed the above Mark Twain quotation, but when I am using a word processor program, spelling corrections are made so easily that I don't understand why people don't make the effort. Right below this editing box as I am typing, for instance is a button marked "Spell Check," which requires a single mouse click to use.
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