Full Version: The mentally ill have taken over America
For outsiders and foreigners like myself and many others, the way Americans have changed since 9/11 as a collective consciousness has been faintly bizarre, frightening and a disorientating experience. Although the majority of the British population supported the campaign against the Taliban in Afghanistan, a schism emerged between Americans and British during the pre-war debate on Iraq.
Seemingly ridiculous and incredulous facts from public opinion surveys have gradually dawned on the wider public consciousness and brought into conscious debate the state of mind of the average American. Primarily in these public opinion polls on the American population was who was to blame for 9/11 and staggeringly half the respondents blamed Saddam Hussein on the tragic events of 11th September. Let us analyse this claim that seems to be believed as fact by so many Americans, there is NO evidence of Iraqi involvement in the events of 9/11. (Poll Says Most Believe Saddam-9/11 Link)
The only rational conclusion for the objective observer is that almost a majority of the population are fundamentally incapable of analysing fact and fiction. Why is this? Robert L. Kocher wrote,
Clearly one of the main reasons for this inability to think logically and rationally must come from the American education system ¡V a monumental failure that should ashame all Americans. Yet this wasn¡¦t a one-off poll as some delusional characters may argue when reading this post. The same pattern of mental disorder has been shown throughout polls on the American population.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article3707.htm
Furthermore,
So even Americans most interested and aware of the external reality of international affairs are in a majority in their mental state of self-delusion and their experience of cognitive dissonance.
How on earth has American society regressed to the point that the majority of Americans are now incapable of understanding reality? For this answer, we need to look back to the sixties.
So back in 1984, over twenty per cent of the younger generation, perhaps as much as 27% were diagnosed as showing symptoms of severe mental disorder. Considering that the mentally healthier older generation are now dying away, the sixties and the Reagon generation (which have shown the highest levels of extreme mental disorder) are now becoming the dominant strata in the American electorate. The rapid expansion of mental disorder among the younger generation has only ballooned since the mid-eighties, suggesting that the large numbers of people in the polls may be that growing constituent of the mentally ill.
Although the essay was written during last vestiges of liberal Clintonesta dominance over the American national culture, this explosion of the mentally ill have been adversely effected by the traumatic experience of 9/11. George Bush has an intuitive understanding, despite his lack of academic intellect of the deep-seated irrational needs of the growing army of the mentally ill and have used primeval fears of death, insecurity, terror and personal insecurity for his political agenda. Could this explain why there has been so little opposition to authoritarian anti-constitutional passages like the Patriot Act?
George Bush is the first Rightwing president to cultivate, manipulate and direct this growing constituency of the mentally ill and it has important implications for American politicians, PR consultants and society as a whole. For the Democratic Party, instead of rational debate, the means of winning elections is to cultivate and control the fears, insecurities and disorders of the (just) majority of the population who show symptoms of severe mental disorder. Similarly, as the network media like Fox News has already found, pandering to the mental needs of flag waving, violent brutal militarism makes large and growing viewing figures.
For the remaining and dwindling mentally healthy in society who remain committed to rationality, facts and objective reality these are terrifying implications. They are a persecuted minority facing a army of tens of millions of severely mentally ill determined to externalise their internal problems of society and the world at large. And there is no evidence that there has been a slowdown or decline in the growing mental disorder. Quite the opposite, the massive use among a growing minority of Americans of ¡§soft¡¨ drugs like Cannabis (which findings have found increases the likelihood of mental illness, schizophrenia etc) and the fact that twenty per cent of American children are under Ritalin for ADHD ¡V where some scientists belief leads to greater mental illness shows that its only going to get worse.
Conclusion:
So, do you think that the majority of Americans are now severely mentally ill?
Seemingly ridiculous and incredulous facts from public opinion surveys have gradually dawned on the wider public consciousness and brought into conscious debate the state of mind of the average American. Primarily in these public opinion polls on the American population was who was to blame for 9/11 and staggeringly half the respondents blamed Saddam Hussein on the tragic events of 11th September. Let us analyse this claim that seems to be believed as fact by so many Americans, there is NO evidence of Iraqi involvement in the events of 9/11. (Poll Says Most Believe Saddam-9/11 Link)
The only rational conclusion for the objective observer is that almost a majority of the population are fundamentally incapable of analysing fact and fiction. Why is this? Robert L. Kocher wrote,
QUOTE
¡§Most students were not developing analytical capacity beyond the thirteen-year-old level. This characteristic is not restricted to the sciences. Virtually any intellectual test incorporating questions requiring serious integration of information shows typical Americans of recent generations lack the capacity to think logically and integrate information. Many, if not most, Americans in recent generations are profoundly incapable of valid serious reasoning processes requiring more than two steps to complete the analysis.
A panel of educators evaluating the test information stated:
"¡K Our nation is producing a generation of students who lack the intellectual skills necessary to assess the validity of evidence or the logic of arguments, and who are misinformed about the nature of scientific endeavors."
A panel of educators evaluating the test information stated:
"¡K Our nation is producing a generation of students who lack the intellectual skills necessary to assess the validity of evidence or the logic of arguments, and who are misinformed about the nature of scientific endeavors."
Clearly one of the main reasons for this inability to think logically and rationally must come from the American education system ¡V a monumental failure that should ashame all Americans. Yet this wasn¡¦t a one-off poll as some delusional characters may argue when reading this post. The same pattern of mental disorder has been shown throughout polls on the American population.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article3707.htm
QUOTE
¡§41% said they believed that the US has found such weapons (WWD)¡¨
Furthermore,
QUOTE
¡§Among Republicans who said they follow international affairs very closely -- and thus may also be more exposed to headlines reporting promising leads -- an even larger percentage -- 55% --said weapons have been found, with just 45% saying they have not.¡¨
So even Americans most interested and aware of the external reality of international affairs are in a majority in their mental state of self-delusion and their experience of cognitive dissonance.
How on earth has American society regressed to the point that the majority of Americans are now incapable of understanding reality? For this answer, we need to look back to the sixties.
QUOTE
¡§A series of landmark studies published in the Archives of General Psychiatry (volume 41, 1984) covering „o if not the largest „o one of the largest and most thorough samples ever taken (close to ten thousand people), indicated that about 20 percent of Americans showed symptoms of severe mental disorders in the previous six-month period. The proportion of problems was nearly twice as great in the under-forty-five age group as in those over forty-five. (The study refers to people under forty-five years of age in the period 1980 to 1982.) At early ages, people in the younger age group had already gone through far more psychological crises than people in older age groups had throughout their lives. It is also known there was a great increase in the number of people chronically hospitalized for mental disorders in what was then the under-forty-five age group.¡¨
So back in 1984, over twenty per cent of the younger generation, perhaps as much as 27% were diagnosed as showing symptoms of severe mental disorder. Considering that the mentally healthier older generation are now dying away, the sixties and the Reagon generation (which have shown the highest levels of extreme mental disorder) are now becoming the dominant strata in the American electorate. The rapid expansion of mental disorder among the younger generation has only ballooned since the mid-eighties, suggesting that the large numbers of people in the polls may be that growing constituent of the mentally ill.
QUOTE
¡§It is my absolute conclusion that the rate of serious mental disorder in this country, particularly in the baby-boomer Clinton age group, is five to 10 times that of 50 years ago. Twenty-seven percent doesn't cover it. In fact, mental disorder has become sufficiently widespread to have enough social and political power to redefine itself as not being mental disorder, but rather as being brilliantly liberated.¡¨
Although the essay was written during last vestiges of liberal Clintonesta dominance over the American national culture, this explosion of the mentally ill have been adversely effected by the traumatic experience of 9/11. George Bush has an intuitive understanding, despite his lack of academic intellect of the deep-seated irrational needs of the growing army of the mentally ill and have used primeval fears of death, insecurity, terror and personal insecurity for his political agenda. Could this explain why there has been so little opposition to authoritarian anti-constitutional passages like the Patriot Act?
George Bush is the first Rightwing president to cultivate, manipulate and direct this growing constituency of the mentally ill and it has important implications for American politicians, PR consultants and society as a whole. For the Democratic Party, instead of rational debate, the means of winning elections is to cultivate and control the fears, insecurities and disorders of the (just) majority of the population who show symptoms of severe mental disorder. Similarly, as the network media like Fox News has already found, pandering to the mental needs of flag waving, violent brutal militarism makes large and growing viewing figures.
For the remaining and dwindling mentally healthy in society who remain committed to rationality, facts and objective reality these are terrifying implications. They are a persecuted minority facing a army of tens of millions of severely mentally ill determined to externalise their internal problems of society and the world at large. And there is no evidence that there has been a slowdown or decline in the growing mental disorder. Quite the opposite, the massive use among a growing minority of Americans of ¡§soft¡¨ drugs like Cannabis (which findings have found increases the likelihood of mental illness, schizophrenia etc) and the fact that twenty per cent of American children are under Ritalin for ADHD ¡V where some scientists belief leads to greater mental illness shows that its only going to get worse.
Conclusion:
QUOTE
¡§Beginning in the 60s, our nation has seen several generations of people a large proportion of whom haven't the intellectual skills, the self discipline, the inclination, or the sense of reality to assess the validity of evidence or the logic of choices or consequences or arguments in virtually any aspect of their daily lives. They lack the mentality to run their own lives with competence.
The political atmosphere has become psychotic in that it follows no logic, consistency, or sense of reality. We have people in high office who are defiantly silly supported by defiantly silly constituents. There is no sense of the serious real. To some extent, what we have is goofy middle-aged kids who don't understand they are destroying the country, or couldn't care less.¡¨
The political atmosphere has become psychotic in that it follows no logic, consistency, or sense of reality. We have people in high office who are defiantly silly supported by defiantly silly constituents. There is no sense of the serious real. To some extent, what we have is goofy middle-aged kids who don't understand they are destroying the country, or couldn't care less.¡¨
So, do you think that the majority of Americans are now severely mentally ill?
Any links to sites purporting this "mental illness"?
The argument can be made that Americans are woefully under-educated, as a whole. Inability to reach a logical conclusion given a set of facts does not (to me) point to mental illness, but a lack of education.
The drug use angle is an interesting one...it is a fact that drug use exploded in the 60's and the children of that generation are now "middle America". Drug use has continued its influence to this day... Interesting, but no real basis in fact that I can see.
Where did your quotes from this study come from?
We have seen that poll before, but I don't think that points to mental illness (let alone severe mental illness).
I think Americans are under-educated, not mentally ill.
The argument can be made that Americans are woefully under-educated, as a whole. Inability to reach a logical conclusion given a set of facts does not (to me) point to mental illness, but a lack of education.
The drug use angle is an interesting one...it is a fact that drug use exploded in the 60's and the children of that generation are now "middle America". Drug use has continued its influence to this day... Interesting, but no real basis in fact that I can see.
Where did your quotes from this study come from?
We have seen that poll before, but I don't think that points to mental illness (let alone severe mental illness).
QUOTE
So, do you think that the majority of Americans are now severely mentally ill?
I think Americans are under-educated, not mentally ill.
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 22 2003, 11:05 AM)
So, do you think that the majority of Americans are now severely mentally ill?
No. I think it's the definitions that have changed, not the people. Just as many computer geeks think there's a technical solution to every problem, and salesmen subscribe to crass materialism, psychologists and psychiatrists, enthusiastically supported by the pharmaceutical industry, see everything through the lens of what they believe is "normal" behavior. Anything they don't understand, or don't like, gets treated as a disorder. Here, take this pill and everything will be better.
Yes, there are many things wrong with our society and culture. Some of those might be traced to common individual attitudes or behaviors, but that doesn't make them mental illnesses. Social ills must be "treated" at a social level, not by counseling or medicating people one by one.
NO, absolutely not.
True, our education system is geared toward making the majority of us good tax paying wage earners and those jobs do not require much thinking. Our government does not want us to have the kind of education required to be informed, thinking voters. We would probably start dumping the existing elected yahoos by the bushel. Can't have that, can we?
But being ignorant and easily manipulated by our leaders is not a mental disorder. Neither is ADHD, which is severly over diagnosed.
And I am very suspicious of a profession that gets paid to treat the mentally ill when they publish self serving reports indicating that a large number of us need their help.
True, our education system is geared toward making the majority of us good tax paying wage earners and those jobs do not require much thinking. Our government does not want us to have the kind of education required to be informed, thinking voters. We would probably start dumping the existing elected yahoos by the bushel. Can't have that, can we?
But being ignorant and easily manipulated by our leaders is not a mental disorder. Neither is ADHD, which is severly over diagnosed.
And I am very suspicious of a profession that gets paid to treat the mentally ill when they publish self serving reports indicating that a large number of us need their help.
a mental disorder does not mean attacking nuns with a flameing chainsaw always, and the reason psychpolgy and relateed fields just hand out dope, something i dont agree with fully, is a blame to be really looked at past two steps 
call it what you want, but i do think most americans dont care to think anymore, disorder or not its sad.
call it what you want, but i do think most americans dont care to think anymore, disorder or not its sad.
QUOTE(nileriver @ Jul 22 2003, 03:59 PM)
call it what you want, but i do think most americans dont care to think anymore, disorder or not its sad.
Guess I am of the opinion that "not think anymore" is not quite accurate. When did we ever think? How far back do we have to go to find an era that we could be described as a thinking nation? Surely the Revolutionary War was one of the times, but since?
I believe the Vietnam war protestors and the unrest and demonstations by the college kids could be considered an era of thinking, but was it really in large numbers of the population or just overblown by the media?
Prior to around 1800, much of our population couldn't read at all, or read so poorly that they had no chance to have something to think about.
Maybe the time has come. Certainly current events have a lot of people talking, and it could lead to something. I suspect the next election will be very interesting, or I could be all wrong and it will just be more of the same old propaganda that our leaders think we love to swallow.
Yes, but you had to be rich to get an education at the same time. More or less we have a society that does not drive you to think, unless its about the prom or my cable bill. If you question or even attempt to grow a brain its frowned upon and held with great distain. Heck our elected leader does not have open press meetings, what is real to molded these days. I think after 9-11 the american citizens here would have not cared one bit about any country in the middle east getting bombed, there still is nothing that puts iraq and 9-11 together, but ask any person for the most part and they "know" that they are behind it, its sad. Its like if there was a murder, who needs law, just grab someone that might at some point be connected, and kill that person, it makes no sense. I guess i should not question anything, that would mean i am not a patriot, what a sell out thing to say if you ask me. Lest just bomb anyone that might be connected, who cares if lots of innocents get killed in the process, its patriotic, no its idiotic to say the least.
http://www.thethresher.com/mental.html
http://www.ritalindeath.com/
http://www.prozactruth.com/prozaceffects.htm
Large numbers of Americans seem to suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder.
Source: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bpd.cfm
“Cannabis 'causes mental illness'
By Sarah Womack, Social Affairs Correspondent
(Filed: 08/04/2003)
Source: http://www.news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main..../08/npuff08.xml
Even if you refuse to accept that many Americans suffer from severe mental disorder, the fact that the majority of Americans are unable to logically think, act, and are in practise mindless morons is a pretty dire condemnation of your society. In such a society where the majority of the population are now self-deluded, democracy in any genuine sense must be dead.
http://www.ritalindeath.com/
http://www.prozactruth.com/prozaceffects.htm
QUOTE
“Is it any surprise that the "profession" has gone full-tilt at children? The vast overprescription of Ritalin and other mind drugs to kids, even babies, is an obvious indication of just how far the corruption has festered in psychiatry. Children with problems that often may be related to bad home environments and rotten teaching are now being criminally abused with Ritalin. Given half a chance, modern psychiatry will have 50 per cent or more of school kids on attention deficit disorder-type drugs before long. In one recent report from the National Institute of Environmental Health Resources, as merely one example, "more than 15 per cent of boys in grades one through five had been diagnosed with ADHD and about 10 per cent (or two-thirds of those diagnosed) were taking medication.”
Large numbers of Americans seem to suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder.
QUOTE
“While a person with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day.5 These may be associated with episodes of impulsive aggression, self-injury, and drug or alcohol abuse. Distortions in cognition and sense of self can lead to frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, friendships, gender identity, and values. Sometimes people with BPD view themselves as fundamentally bad, or unworthy. They may feel unfairly misunderstood or mistreated, bored, empty, and have little idea who they are. Such symptoms are most acute when people with BPD feel isolated and lacking in social support, and may result in frantic efforts to avoid being alone.
People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike). Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all. Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans. These fears of abandonment seem to be related to difficulties feeling emotionally connected to important persons when they are physically absent, leaving the individual with BPD feeling lost and perhaps worthlessness. Suicide threats and attempts may occur along with anger at perceived abandonment and disappointments.
People with BPD exhibit other impulsive behaviors, such as excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex. BPD often occurs together with other psychiatric problems, particularly bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and other personality disorders.”
People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike). Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all. Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans. These fears of abandonment seem to be related to difficulties feeling emotionally connected to important persons when they are physically absent, leaving the individual with BPD feeling lost and perhaps worthlessness. Suicide threats and attempts may occur along with anger at perceived abandonment and disappointments.
People with BPD exhibit other impulsive behaviors, such as excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex. BPD often occurs together with other psychiatric problems, particularly bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and other personality disorders.”
Source: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bpd.cfm
“Cannabis 'causes mental illness'
By Sarah Womack, Social Affairs Correspondent
(Filed: 08/04/2003)
QUOTE
A significant increase in cannabis smoking is leading to serious mental health problems among the young, two leading drugs experts said yesterday.
They warned that the effect of cannabis on the body was equal to cigarettes but was "far more dangerous" on the mind.
Prof John Henry, a toxicologist at Imperial College, London, said: "Regular cannabis smokers develop mental illness.
"There is a four-fold increase in schizophrenia and there is a four-fold increase in major depression and that is something very, very different to what cigarettes do to you."
Dr Ian Oliver, independent consultant to the UN Drug Control Programme, said cannabis on the market today was 10 times stronger than that smoked by the "flower power" generation of the Sixties. "The result is doped-up kids who lose all motivation to do anything except lie in bed," he said.
Doctors in Holland have given the medical condition its own label: "amotivational" syndrome. This, say medical practitioners in the field, simply means cannabis is creating a new generation of layabouts”
They warned that the effect of cannabis on the body was equal to cigarettes but was "far more dangerous" on the mind.
Prof John Henry, a toxicologist at Imperial College, London, said: "Regular cannabis smokers develop mental illness.
"There is a four-fold increase in schizophrenia and there is a four-fold increase in major depression and that is something very, very different to what cigarettes do to you."
Dr Ian Oliver, independent consultant to the UN Drug Control Programme, said cannabis on the market today was 10 times stronger than that smoked by the "flower power" generation of the Sixties. "The result is doped-up kids who lose all motivation to do anything except lie in bed," he said.
Doctors in Holland have given the medical condition its own label: "amotivational" syndrome. This, say medical practitioners in the field, simply means cannabis is creating a new generation of layabouts”
Source: http://www.news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main..../08/npuff08.xml
Even if you refuse to accept that many Americans suffer from severe mental disorder, the fact that the majority of Americans are unable to logically think, act, and are in practise mindless morons is a pretty dire condemnation of your society. In such a society where the majority of the population are now self-deluded, democracy in any genuine sense must be dead.
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 22 2003, 01:28 PM)
...the fact that the majority of Americans are unable to logically think, act, and are in practise mindless morons is a pretty dire condemnation of your society.
Pretty inflammatory don't you think? A MAJORITY is a LOT of people. How does one even begin to quantify such things? Do you have any studies to show precisely how it is known that Americans are unable "logically, think, (and) act"?
Bloody rubbish, as you Brits might say.
Yep, we are under-educated, I'll be the first to admit that. But the idea that we are mentally ill is inflammatory anti-American propoganda and nothing more.
I won't help this thread any longer by posting. But I will be keeping an eye on it.
--cheers
Yep, we are under-educated, I'll be the first to admit that. But the idea that we are mentally ill is inflammatory anti-American propoganda and nothing more.
I won't help this thread any longer by posting. But I will be keeping an eye on it.
--cheers
Surely the fact that fifty per cent of the American public believe that Saddam did 9/11 is a sign of an inability to logically think?
other threads have shown that the vast majority of Americans get their "news" from news networks. Very few Americans read books, travel or have any depth of knowledge about the external world. Perhaps calling the majority of Americans as mentally ill could be seen as going to far, but I beleive that the author diagnises a serious social and cultural problem.
Digital Patriot: The same trends are occuring in Britain. Growing numbers of primary children show violence, an unability to stay still, concentrate or behave. There is a terrifying increase in a number of ADHD and the use of Ratizin for British children. From personal experence, I find that the vast majority are igornant, small minded and a growing number show symptons of mental disorder. What do you expect when over half of marriages end up in divorce? What do you expect when even middle class parents don't teach their children traditional morality or values?
other threads have shown that the vast majority of Americans get their "news" from news networks. Very few Americans read books, travel or have any depth of knowledge about the external world. Perhaps calling the majority of Americans as mentally ill could be seen as going to far, but I beleive that the author diagnises a serious social and cultural problem.
Digital Patriot: The same trends are occuring in Britain. Growing numbers of primary children show violence, an unability to stay still, concentrate or behave. There is a terrifying increase in a number of ADHD and the use of Ratizin for British children. From personal experence, I find that the vast majority are igornant, small minded and a growing number show symptons of mental disorder. What do you expect when over half of marriages end up in divorce? What do you expect when even middle class parents don't teach their children traditional morality or values?
QUOTE
Surely the fact that fifty per cent of the American public believe that Saddam did 9/11 is a sign of an inability to logically think?
Would you, by chance, have a link to back up this claim?
QUOTE
Very few Americans read books, travel or have any depth of knowledge about the external world.
Or this?
I have never been to the British Isles, but some of the Brits have come to my house. I suspect that the common folk there are no better off than the common folk here, whether we are talking about mental illness, level of education, political awareness, life opportunities, or whatever.
Don't believe everything you read in the paper, and especially be a doubting Thomas about what you read in the Psychiatry periodicals/articles.
Quoting someone, don't remember who, "I have never met a lawyer who wasn't a little bit crooked, or a psychiatrist who wasn't a little bit crazy".
Don't believe everything you read in the paper, and especially be a doubting Thomas about what you read in the Psychiatry periodicals/articles.
Quoting someone, don't remember who, "I have never met a lawyer who wasn't a little bit crooked, or a psychiatrist who wasn't a little bit crazy".
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 22 2003, 02:44 PM)
Surely the fact that fifty per cent of the American public believe that Saddam did 9/11 is a sign of an inability to logically think?
other threads have shown that the vast majority of Americans get their "news" from news networks. Very few Americans read books, travel or have any depth of knowledge about the external world. Perhaps calling the majority of Americans as mentally ill could be seen as going to far, but I beleive that the author diagnises a serious social and cultural problem.
Digital Patriot: The same trends are occuring in Britain. Growing numbers of primary children show violence, an unability to stay still, concentrate or behave. There is a terrifying increase in a number of ADHD and the use of Ratizin for British children. From personal experence, I find that the vast majority are igornant, small minded and a growing number show symptons of mental disorder. What do you expect when over half of marriages end up in divorce? What do you expect when even middle class parents don't teach their children traditional morality or values?
other threads have shown that the vast majority of Americans get their "news" from news networks. Very few Americans read books, travel or have any depth of knowledge about the external world. Perhaps calling the majority of Americans as mentally ill could be seen as going to far, but I beleive that the author diagnises a serious social and cultural problem.
Digital Patriot: The same trends are occuring in Britain. Growing numbers of primary children show violence, an unability to stay still, concentrate or behave. There is a terrifying increase in a number of ADHD and the use of Ratizin for British children. From personal experence, I find that the vast majority are igornant, small minded and a growing number show symptons of mental disorder. What do you expect when over half of marriages end up in divorce? What do you expect when even middle class parents don't teach their children traditional morality or values?
I would say that the number of people who think that Iraq was directly responsible for the events of 9/11 is more a matter of lack of information (which is certainly regrettable) than an inability to think. A huge factor also, I believe, is the emotional impact of this tragedy. Many Americans needed an enemy they could visualize, and who could be punished directly. Let's face it; it is impossible to end terrorism, but it is possible for one nation to defeat another in a war; I understand why many people got the goal confused with the result.
It would be nice if most people read books and learned about the rest of the world, but the plain fact is that this has never been true about the majority of people in any society. The USA probably has a worse track record on this than European nations, to our shame, but I don't think it's a brand-new problem.
I'm not sure what the relationship is between "traditional morality" and ability to reason and/or mental illness. There are many ways in which I reject traditional values; there are many ways in which I support traditional values. I don't think either tendency has had any effect on my mental capacity (limited though it may be.)
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 22 2003, 11:44 AM)
Surely the fact that fifty per cent of the American public believe that Saddam did 9/11 is a sign of an inability to logically think?
I want to see your proof.
No it doesn't. It means they're easily duped
QUOTE
Very few Americans read books, travel or have any depth of knowledge about the external world.
I want to see proof about books and the external world. As for travel, stop and think for one moment: Traveling to any country for an American is extremely expensive. After all, we have to fly over the atlantic. You can just jump in a car and drive a couple hours and be in a whole different world.
We're pretty isolated out here. So comparing the traveling habits of Americans and Brits is comparing apples and oranges.
QUOTE
Perhaps calling the majority of Americans as mentally ill could be seen as going to far
ya think?
QUOTE
Digital Patriot: The same trends are occuring in Britain. Growing numbers of primary children show violence
Primary as opposed to what? Secondary children? Explain please.
QUOTE
From personal experence, I find that the vast majority are igornant, small minded and a growing number show symptons of mental disorder.
So you have personally met the VAST majority of Americans, Brits, or whatever? wow
QUOTE
What do you expect when over half of marriages end up in divorce? What do you expect when even middle class parents don't teach their children traditional morality or values?
I know I said I wouldn't post to this thread again, but this comment made me change my mind. I went from being slightly irritated, to insulted.
I happen to be divorced. And I resent the implication that divorce alone causes mental illness. I'm not even sure if I am interpreting you correctly, but I honestly don't think it matters at this point. Divorce has nothing to do with this.
Furthermore, I'm sure your extensive personal experience with the "vast majority" made you come to the conclusion that middle class families don't teach their kids morals or values? Are you implying that is to be expected of poor families?
It seems that the consensus is that yes there are major problems in America in relation to education, informed thinking among the populace, growing violence from pupils in schools etc but this in itself doesn't constitute a epidemic of mental illness.
Well, I greaty sympatheise with the view and it seems in reflection that the author quoted appears to have a rather broad interpretation of "mental disorder".
I would argue that the growing anti-social problems stem from a variety of factors.
Divorce is a factor in the development of healthy, happy and balanced young adults.
See http://www.lbduk.org/stable_families_reduc...e_likelihoo.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2688935.stm
I am not insinuating that all divorced parents are bad, thats ridiculous, so don't think in any way I was making an attack on yourself.
Other factors include the types of food children are eating, the lack of parental teaching of basic mores to their children etc
Well, I greaty sympatheise with the view and it seems in reflection that the author quoted appears to have a rather broad interpretation of "mental disorder".
I would argue that the growing anti-social problems stem from a variety of factors.
Divorce is a factor in the development of healthy, happy and balanced young adults.
See http://www.lbduk.org/stable_families_reduc...e_likelihoo.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2688935.stm
QUOTE
"Children who grow up with just one parent are twice as likely to have psychological problems compared to those with two parents, a study suggests.
Researchers in Sweden have also found that they are more likely to commit suicide. Boys appear most at risk.
However, the researchers acknowledged that other factors, including socio-economic status and relationship with the parent, may also play an important role."
Researchers in Sweden have also found that they are more likely to commit suicide. Boys appear most at risk.
However, the researchers acknowledged that other factors, including socio-economic status and relationship with the parent, may also play an important role."
I am not insinuating that all divorced parents are bad, thats ridiculous, so don't think in any way I was making an attack on yourself.
Other factors include the types of food children are eating, the lack of parental teaching of basic mores to their children etc
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 22 2003, 08:45 PM)
Other factors include the types of food children are eating,
Oh, no, the twinkie defense! Diet in this country may have led to more fat people here compared to other countries, but that is not a mental disorder. Well, depends who you ask. I am sure that if one shrink can cure obesity in one person, the whole profession will jump on that occurrence and make an entire industry for themselves out of it.
Seriously, research of this type by someone who is probably a nut case himself has to be taken with a grain of salt.
And if the study was done supported by a government grant, use the whole salt shaker.
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 22 2003, 02:44 PM)
Surely the fact that fifty per cent of the American public believe that Saddam did 9/11 is a sign of an inability to logically think?
QUOTE
No, I think it's more apparent that if you repeat a lie long enough people will believe it is the gospel truth. Hitler was the master of this rhetorical judo, but most politicians know how to lead people by the nose.
I think Americans are more likely to be less skeptical and questioning of authority figures. Too many give up thinking and learning after they finish high school. They don't go to the library. They only use their computers to chat, send chain e-mails and surf for porn. They don't read and get the bulk of their information from television.
It's hard work to stay informed and expose yourself to a variety of informational sources. It's easier to sit back and let someone who already has an opinion give you theirs instead of creating one on your own.
My previous signature was a quote by Robert Heinlein and I think it applies to why so many Americans wrongly believe Saddam Hussein was responsible for the 9/11 terror attacks:
Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run, these are the only people who count.
I don't think our educational system places enough value on critical thinking and sober analysis. That's one reason why we as a people are so damnably dumb at times about what we "think" to be true. It's not that Americans are stupid deliberately, but we comfort ourselves that "somebody else" is going to fix the problems that bedevil us. Few of us come to the realization that we are that "somebody else."
But collective mass insanity as a reason? That strikes me as a provocative notion, but not much more than hyperbole and I don't believe the hype.
Well, since I work in the psychiatric profession, I guess I better take a stab at this one LOL
I work in the state mental health facility in Alaska, and get loads of literature sent to me about this current mental illness or that.
You really have to break down mental illness into two categories, those that are organic in nature (chronic depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder) and those that are coping/behavior disorders (borderline personality disorder, socio pathic personality disorder etc).
The first group are a percentage of the population no matter what culture or location, and the behaviors you see are the same in the community, in the mental health facility, or on a desert island, with no real change in behavior without medication.
The rest is the war of psuedo-science, drug companies and correctional for possesion of money. I think one of the best psych books dealing with thinking errors today is "Inside the criminal mind", authors name on the tip of my tongue and the book is at work, but it deals with the true rehabilitation of criminalsand thier thinking errors.
A mental illness is only that when it has a negative effect on your personal life and you continue the behavior anyway.
Also, psychology and psychiatry are dealing with individuals, not groups, that would be sociology, so therefore, the entire notion that, as a nation, we are mentally ill, is unscientific, because it is utilizing the wrong science! LOL
I work in the state mental health facility in Alaska, and get loads of literature sent to me about this current mental illness or that.
You really have to break down mental illness into two categories, those that are organic in nature (chronic depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder) and those that are coping/behavior disorders (borderline personality disorder, socio pathic personality disorder etc).
The first group are a percentage of the population no matter what culture or location, and the behaviors you see are the same in the community, in the mental health facility, or on a desert island, with no real change in behavior without medication.
The rest is the war of psuedo-science, drug companies and correctional for possesion of money. I think one of the best psych books dealing with thinking errors today is "Inside the criminal mind", authors name on the tip of my tongue and the book is at work, but it deals with the true rehabilitation of criminalsand thier thinking errors.
A mental illness is only that when it has a negative effect on your personal life and you continue the behavior anyway.
Also, psychology and psychiatry are dealing with individuals, not groups, that would be sociology, so therefore, the entire notion that, as a nation, we are mentally ill, is unscientific, because it is utilizing the wrong science! LOL
QUOTE(Bill55AZ @ Jul 22 2003, 10:37 AM)
True, our education system is geared toward making the majority of us good tax paying wage earners and those jobs do not require much thinking. Our government does not want us to have the kind of education required to be informed, thinking voters. We would probably start dumping the existing elected yahoos by the bushel. Can't have that, can we?
This is the REAL crux of the problem for us observers out here.
I never have nor will I ever believe the American public is stupid.
However I will always have the belief the American public is manipulated by its media and polititions.
And so it should be.
America is the most powerful nation on earth and that power is courtesy of the American taxpayer.
The use of that power is courtesy of those who are placed in power by the one who Americans vote for.
The one Americans vote for is the last time there is any semblance of choice for Americans.
Should we out here worry?...............you betya we should!!
Regards....Alan
I've always maintained that in regard to mental illness,
Some of us have been diagnosed; the rest haven't been diagnosed yet. 
I think it's an abdication of responsibility not to question the motives and actions of our leaders. Maybe it's a leftover fear from earlier times of "ticking off" the ruling class.
(edited)
Some of us have been diagnosed; the rest haven't been diagnosed yet. I think it's an abdication of responsibility not to question the motives and actions of our leaders. Maybe it's a leftover fear from earlier times of "ticking off" the ruling class.
(edited)
Mention has been made of the 1960s and its effect on the US population's thinking abilities. I was pretty young back then, but I remember the reactions to the assassinations (Kennedy, King, Kennedy). These events definitely sent a shudder through the population. Soon after, the big splits started up and it sure looked like everything was going to devolve into eternal factional infighting.
Over the ensuing decades, I kept seeing evidence of strange, general behavior. We had a crook in the White House and so elected a born-again to compensate. That didn't work out, so we tried an actor. Hey, that was nice, like drug euphoria. Well, even though good-paying working class jobs dried up and blew overseas. Not to worry, high tech was ramping up.
Then GHWB comes along and we get a nice, short Nintendo war so everyone can strut about with flags and pride and yellow ribbons--and a knock-down punch for anyone who said anything bad about it all.
The shame of Vietnam went away. Or was it the caution? Eh, who cared.
As the 90s evolved, it looked like peace and prosperity was going to come to this world, finally. While cleaning out a bookshelf, I came across this one:
World Boom Ahead by Knight Kiplinger, © 1998.
Guess the boom turned out to be a blast.
That was just five years ago. A great deal has changed since then. The economy has gone bust; the recovery isn't producing jobs; 9/11 displayed our vulnerability; we've gone to war twice.
So if there is mental illness going on in this country, I'd say it is a normal reaction to high stress. This has led to a large portion of the population to suspend critical thinking in favor of feel-good thinking. It has also led to overreactions to those who kept their critical thinking caps on (witness Dixie Chicks, fired journalists, accusations of being un-American).
Fortunately, this tide has reversed, but as often happens, this reversal has swung too much to the other side.
At least this made the manipulators sweat a little. That's a good sign, don't you think? I mean, people can go into temporary insanity over things like death of a loved one, divorce, and loss of job. The insanity is part of the mourning process and takes, typically, about two years to fully recover (although few ever fully "get over it").
In summary, the population of the US has displayed normal reactions to stress and is therefore not chronically ill, although the stressors on our society have been chronic over the past 50 years.
Perhaps that's a problem? Maybe a population can be too stressed for too long? I rather think so.
Over the ensuing decades, I kept seeing evidence of strange, general behavior. We had a crook in the White House and so elected a born-again to compensate. That didn't work out, so we tried an actor. Hey, that was nice, like drug euphoria. Well, even though good-paying working class jobs dried up and blew overseas. Not to worry, high tech was ramping up.
Then GHWB comes along and we get a nice, short Nintendo war so everyone can strut about with flags and pride and yellow ribbons--and a knock-down punch for anyone who said anything bad about it all.
The shame of Vietnam went away. Or was it the caution? Eh, who cared.
As the 90s evolved, it looked like peace and prosperity was going to come to this world, finally. While cleaning out a bookshelf, I came across this one:
World Boom Ahead by Knight Kiplinger, © 1998.
Guess the boom turned out to be a blast.
That was just five years ago. A great deal has changed since then. The economy has gone bust; the recovery isn't producing jobs; 9/11 displayed our vulnerability; we've gone to war twice.
So if there is mental illness going on in this country, I'd say it is a normal reaction to high stress. This has led to a large portion of the population to suspend critical thinking in favor of feel-good thinking. It has also led to overreactions to those who kept their critical thinking caps on (witness Dixie Chicks, fired journalists, accusations of being un-American).
Fortunately, this tide has reversed, but as often happens, this reversal has swung too much to the other side.
At least this made the manipulators sweat a little. That's a good sign, don't you think? I mean, people can go into temporary insanity over things like death of a loved one, divorce, and loss of job. The insanity is part of the mourning process and takes, typically, about two years to fully recover (although few ever fully "get over it").
In summary, the population of the US has displayed normal reactions to stress and is therefore not chronically ill, although the stressors on our society have been chronic over the past 50 years.
Perhaps that's a problem? Maybe a population can be too stressed for too long? I rather think so.
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Jul 28 2003, 12:48 PM)
I've always maintained that in regard to mental illness,
Some of us have been diagnosed; the rest haven't been diagnosed yet.
I think it's an abdication of responsibility not to question the motives and actions of our leaders. Maybe it's a leftover fear from earlier times of "ticking off" the ruling class.
(edited)
Some of us have been diagnosed; the rest haven't been diagnosed yet. I think it's an abdication of responsibility not to question the motives and actions of our leaders. Maybe it's a leftover fear from earlier times of "ticking off" the ruling class.
(edited)
Reminds me of an observation I made in a class once, that wasn't appreciated. It was in a required class while in the Navy, during the 70's. We were using the book, "I'm OK, you're OK".
I said that a better title would be, "I'm not OK, you're not OK, but that is OK".
(The instructor was a mental health professional)
Also, saying that some of us haven't been diagnosed yet is scary. It sounds like invitation for the Psychiatric profession to create even more "illnesses" to "treat".
Actually Bill, the psychiatric proffession as it relates to actual diagnoses, not publishing books with new buzz words, lies in the DSMR 4. You can't right a treatment plan in an accredited institution without the diagnoses code out of that book. So the real debate, in mainstream psychiatry, is what to put in that book. Don't confuse this with a psyche book flavor of the day best seller.
Once again, all if this is totally useless as a group. "Mass Insanity" is not a term outside a sci fi book that relates to the psychiatric industry/profession.
One of the biggest challenge, if not the challenge, of the psychiatric field of study is "what is sane and insane, and if there is a difference, how shall we know it?" - and there is several papers that outright asks this.
Once again, all if this is totally useless as a group. "Mass Insanity" is not a term outside a sci fi book that relates to the psychiatric industry/profession.
One of the biggest challenge, if not the challenge, of the psychiatric field of study is "what is sane and insane, and if there is a difference, how shall we know it?" - and there is several papers that outright asks this.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Jul 29 2003, 08:04 AM)
One of the biggest challenge, if not the challenge, of the psychiatric field of study is "what is sane and insane, and if there is a difference, how shall we know it?" -
I knew it!
I have heard it said, and will quote it again, "I never know a lawyer who wasn't a little bit crooked, or a psychiatrist that wasn't a little bit crazy".
Your statement helps to prove that it isn't always clear what sane is or isn't, and that even the professionals are aware of their personal limitations in their own field of study.
Well, I may be stretching it a bit here. But I have always been suspicious of some of the claims that they make. Similar to Chiropractors claiming to be able to cure Kidney failure, cancers, etc. with a "spinal alignment". Some of their ads 20-30 years ago were hilarious.
Now, how do we relate the foibles of shrinks, back-crackers, etc. to our politicians?
Are they working in the dark, as well? Making claims that have no merit? Pulling the proverbial wool over our eyes?
And where do I go to get treatment for my permanent paranoia regarding the claims of "experts"? Or should I hang on to my paranoia? I think it has served me well, so far.
Am I crazy enough, yet, Doc? Or do I need more of your help?
"Insane" is a legal term (not medical) anyway, defined as not knowing right from wrong.
Anybody can be labeled as having some kind of mental disorder. I think that our problems have to do with being fed propaganda all of the time.
On the one hand, we're supposed to be extra vigilant (anxiety producing) for faceless enemies to sabotage places in our daily lives, and on the other hand we're supposed to feel secure knowing that our President and all of the powers at his disposal are out to protect us.
Some of us have gotten to the point that we don't want to hear any more bad news because we figure it's out of our control anyway. It's like the analogy of having a tall glass jar full of fleas. Well, you know a flea can jump to phenomenal heights for its size. The fleas initially try to jump out of the jar, but there is a lid that stops them from getting out.
After a certain length of time, the experimenter removes the lid from the jar. The fleas have learned that they cannot get out, so even though escape would be easy now if they tried, they don't know that. They have given up.
Anybody can be labeled as having some kind of mental disorder. I think that our problems have to do with being fed propaganda all of the time.
On the one hand, we're supposed to be extra vigilant (anxiety producing) for faceless enemies to sabotage places in our daily lives, and on the other hand we're supposed to feel secure knowing that our President and all of the powers at his disposal are out to protect us.
Some of us have gotten to the point that we don't want to hear any more bad news because we figure it's out of our control anyway. It's like the analogy of having a tall glass jar full of fleas. Well, you know a flea can jump to phenomenal heights for its size. The fleas initially try to jump out of the jar, but there is a lid that stops them from getting out.
After a certain length of time, the experimenter removes the lid from the jar. The fleas have learned that they cannot get out, so even though escape would be easy now if they tried, they don't know that. They have given up.
While I'd never say that Americans are insane, they certainly are gullible. Someone asked for a link regarding Iraq and 9/11, so here is one:
A New York Times/CBS poll this week shows that 45 percent of Americans believe Mr. Hussein was "personally involved" in Sept. 11, about the same figure as a month ago.
Unfortunately, the US public are primarily couch potatoes who believe anything that is fed to them through the boob tube and have demonstrated a distinct lack of ability to think and reason on their own. A lot of this is due to socialization, as has been mentioned. Making 'good citizens' is often the same as making mindless sheep who follow whatever the TV personality tells them. Classes in logic and critical thinking are not offered in most high schools and probably never will be as it would challenge the control of the populace if people started being able to consider the arguments they hear and critically evaluate them.
A New York Times/CBS poll this week shows that 45 percent of Americans believe Mr. Hussein was "personally involved" in Sept. 11, about the same figure as a month ago.
Unfortunately, the US public are primarily couch potatoes who believe anything that is fed to them through the boob tube and have demonstrated a distinct lack of ability to think and reason on their own. A lot of this is due to socialization, as has been mentioned. Making 'good citizens' is often the same as making mindless sheep who follow whatever the TV personality tells them. Classes in logic and critical thinking are not offered in most high schools and probably never will be as it would challenge the control of the populace if people started being able to consider the arguments they hear and critically evaluate them.
QUOTE(Cephus @ Jul 29 2003, 02:13 PM)
Classes in logic and critical thinking are not offered in most high schools and probably never will be as it would challenge the control of the populace if people started being able to consider the arguments they hear and critically evaluate them.
This is the whole point.
Anything less than complience with governmental wishes is deemed anarchistic, or a favourite american word, unpatriotic.
Mostly these non-compliants are put into the 'crank', 'conspiritists' or even just plain nut-case box and ignored.
And so it should be so (from a governmental point of view) because it is so much easier to control the mindless.
All that is required is one 'judas goat' and the rest will follow.
The point as I see it is this.
It is the mentally deficient, not ill, that are in control of both your country and mine and the 'judas goat' they follow is our PM and your President.
Regard.........Alan
I think people are making too big a deal out of the saddam/9-11 thing. Maybe, just maybe some of those people think saddam had something to do with it? How hard is it to prove a negative? Pretty darn hard right?
How many people believe "O.J. did it"? But wait, he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers! Saddam hasn't been directly linked to 9/11, but now we're mentally ill because some of us think he did have something to do with it? Wow...
How many people believe "O.J. did it"? But wait, he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers! Saddam hasn't been directly linked to 9/11, but now we're mentally ill because some of us think he did have something to do with it? Wow...
QUOTE
Anything less than complience with governmental wishes is deemed anarchistic, or a favourite american word, unpatriotic.
Which is ridiculous on the face of it. I always found it funny that immediately after 9/11, Americans ran out, paid through the nose for cheap plastic flags that were made in China as a way to demonstrate their patriotism. Most of these so-called patriotic Americans don't even own flags. How sad is that?
QUOTE
And so it should be so (from a governmental point of view) because it is so much easier to control the mindless.
That is true. It's unfortunate that more people don't listen to Teddy Roosevelt who said:
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
Yet you notice that's exactly what so many so-called patriotic Americans demand that we do.
I'd say that from the President's news conference yesterday, where he took full responsibility for the speech gaff about Africa and nuke material to Iraq, some sanity is coming back into this stuff.
Also the more aggressive questioning from the press.
The thing about linking Saddam to 9/11 definitely shows cognitive disconnect, and I suppose enough people have that these days. The press has a responsibility to point out the *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***, but I am afraid they be preaching to the choir.
Maybe more voices will be heard as time goes on?
Also the more aggressive questioning from the press.
The thing about linking Saddam to 9/11 definitely shows cognitive disconnect, and I suppose enough people have that these days. The press has a responsibility to point out the *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***, but I am afraid they be preaching to the choir.
Maybe more voices will be heard as time goes on?
Q: So, do you think that the majority of Americans are now severely mentally ill?
A: Sigh.... no...
A: Sigh.... no...
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jul 31 2003, 03:22 PM)
The thing about linking Saddam to 9/11 definitely shows cognitive disconnect, and I suppose enough people have that these days. The press has a responsibility to point out the *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***, but I am afraid they be preaching to the choir.
The press stopped reporting the news a long time ago and has is now going for ratings. They'd rather make the news than simply put informed information out for the American public.
Maybe that's it! All the insane people have gone to work for the media!
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