Merry Meet.

Although I seem to have no perception of the spiritual at all, I find myself emotionally drawn to Wicca. I'd like to hear your opinions of this belief system.

To be debated: Is Wicca a legitimate religion, a harmless fad, spirtually harmful, or something else?

Blessed Be.

While I don't know that there's any such thing as a legitimate religion, the friends I have who are into Wicca seem to be pretty normal overall so I don't think it's particularly harmful. Wicca certainly isn't an 'expansion-based' religion, it isn't out to convert anyone, legislate itself into public schools, etc. You don't see Wiccans demanding that political candidates be Wiccan or that anyone who isn't is somehow evil.

Based on that, I'd say that it's relatively harmless if one *HAS* to have a religion. In the end though, my opinion (uninformed on Wicca, though it may be) is that Wicca is no more 'true' than any other religion.

I concur with Cephus, I don't know what constitutes a legitimate religion.

But various U.S. courts have also recognized Wicca as a valid religion, as well as the US Army included it in it's Chaplains guide in 1990.

I have no problem with it, from what I know, it seems perfectly harmless.

Though I don't agree with Wicca, this is America and everyone is entitled to believe what they want and have their faith protected from persecution.

I think it's a legitimate religion and spiritually harmful, one and the same. But you won't see me bombing your gathering place! If it gives you comfort, more power to you!

Wicca has been recognized as a religion for quite some time. There are actually two practicing Wiccans that are Army chaplins. I don't have a resource to back that up but Ive heard it a number of times. Wicca is one of the mystery religions and they practice magic but like most religions they believe that anything harmful you do comes back on you (law of recompense). At the heart of Wicca is the worship of the Goddess, most Wiccans are women and it has a very female quality that I think is kind of cool. Its interesting that in virtually all of the pagan mystery religions (I do not mean that in a demeaning way) there is always a female fertility goddess. The Temple of Diana at Ephesus was one of the wonders of the ancheint world and she is strangly simular to the Wiccan goddess. The statute of Liberty was originally an icon popular during the French enlightenment and is probably one of the icons associated with goddess worship, (not that I think the one in New York is an idol, its just a symbol). Our concept of Liberty is based in part on the concept of 'do whatsoever thou will' which is one of the tenants of Wicca. It comes with a moral qualification that what you do not be harmful. For me a religion is a quest for the source of goodness at our source and has to have a strong moral influence in order to be considered legitimate So Id say, sure its a religion in every sense of the word.

Actually, modern Wicca is a relatively new religion, not a 'continuation' of ancient pagan nature worship. They share certain features, but Wicca is very different than what has come before.

Doesn't make it any more or less valid, of course, and I've yet to see anything bad done in its name. In fact, as you mention, Wicca tends to be more 'do unto others'-oriented than most other religions and also tends to be more open and understanding.

Wicca is most definitely a legitimate religion. I can't say I've read a ton on wicca specifically (I have only a basic understanding of the religion and it's practices) but I've read enough to say confidentally its legitimate. I've read more on pagan religions in general though.

Billy Jean:


Please do tell what you believe is so spiritually harmful about wicca? If it is merely that it conflicts with your personal beliefs does that mean that every non-christian religion out there is spiritually harmful in your opinion?
Fact of the matter is that there is a lot of commonality between most major religions (I am including wicca and paganism as a major religion here). IMO buddism and certain pagan religions are more about spirituality than the more widely popular organized religions today. One could easily claim that Christianity is spiritually harmful just as easily as you can call wicca so. In fact I'd be willing to say that historically speaking: Christianity has persecuted those outside of its religion and had missionary type goals of converting people which have been detrimental to certain societies and the spiritualities of those people as much as the next religion and possibly more. At one time paganism and christianity existed side by side, in fact many christians also took part in certain pagan practices. I believe if I understand correctly wiccans are not real big on trying to convert other people. Anyway I'm beginning to ramble now. I just wanted to ask you to clarify HOW wicca specifically is spiritually harmful exactly?

Hey, I never said that Christ's followers and their gross interpretations of His teachings were what I believed in. So don't categorize me! I think Wicca is witchcraft and in my belief witchcraft is wrong. Sue me for expressing my opinion. I chose two of the options presented.

It's a legitimate religion, but I disagree with it. So, what I can't disagree because I'm Christian, am I going to start a crusade against wiccan's? No, like I said, this is America, Freedom of Religion ring a bell?

that is not what I meant...

you took offense to my statements rather than answered the question. What I said was not meant to categorize you among those who grossly interpret Christ's teachings (that was merely given as an example of how a religion can become detrimental spiritually). I think you have every right to your beliefs. I was raised in a christian family myself and am not wicca, I am agnostic tho I do still follow christianity for cultural purposes and enjoy many of its teachings. I simply wondered what specifically you find about wicca to be spiritually detrimental? You didn't say you disagreed with it you said you thought it was spiritually detrimental, I think that those are two different things. also spiritually detrimental to whom? Those involved, possible converts, etc? I didn't mean to sound accusational, I meant to ask a legitimate question I thought. I was curious as to why you feel that way.

You've got a point, I disagree with it, It's not spiritually detrimental. How can there be a difference?!

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_intr.htm

According to this site, wiccans "can be considered a monotheistic, duotheistic, polytheistic, or atheistic religion".

"Wiccans often refer to themselves as Neopagans. The term "Neopagan" includes all faith groups which are based on attempted reconstruction of ancient, extinct religions. However, not all Neopagans are Wiccans. The umbrella term "Neopagan" includes followers of many other earth-centered faith traditions, like Druidism, and Asatru."

What do they believe in? Is there any foundation to their religion? Any structure?

"Some Wiccans consider Wicca and Witchcraft to be synonyms. "

"Others differentiate between Wicca, which they view to be a religion, and Witchcraft, which they perceive to be the practice of magick. Under this definition, Witchcraft is not a religion and thus can be performed by members of any religion."

So, is it a religion or not? What constitutes Wicca as a religion? Yes I know it's recognized by governments, I'm not asking abou the legality.

"Most Wiccans practice magick. However, some do not and concentrate on the spirituality of the Wiccan religion. "

To my faith, the practice of magic is satanic regardless of how you word it.

"However, there are three superficial points of similarity between Satanism and Wicca:
Both use a five pointed star as a symbol. Satanists align it so that two points are upwards. Wiccans orient their star with two points downwards, except in special cases.
Both generally perform their religious rituals within a circle marked on the floor or ground.
Most Wiccans and Satanists engage in magick; however, Wiccans are limited to non-manipulative, consensual, positive magick. "

Now I find the contridictions interesting here. They aren't satanic, but they're simular to satanism...?

I find wicca a loosly based religion on outdated celtic and satanic cults. If you wish to practice it, by all means do so. But I think it lacks structure and life meaning philosophy that the other major religions of the world offer.

I personally feel that to practice magic is forbidden in Scripture and the New Testement calls people to repent of such things. Now the Christian response at times is anything but Christian. On June 10, 1692 Bridget Bishop was executed for witchcraft and by September 22, 20 people had been put to death and over a hundred more imprisoned. The madness didn’t stop until the wife of the governor overseeing the trials was accused. Subsequently the court prosecuting witchcraft cases was dismissed. On January 14, 1697, a day of fasting and repentance was set aside in remorse for the travesty. At that time many of the men responsible confessed their error and guilt. In 1711 Massachusetts paid 600 pounds in restitution for the sufferings inflicted during the summer of 1692. The dangers of the occult may well be best described by how it was used in Salemtown.

In 1700 Robert Calef published a book about the witchunts of Salemtown. The trials and subsequent executions he said were a result of delusions and “envy, hatred, pride, cruelty, and malice”. In vivid satirical style the crowd is pictured as a bloody throng, the leaders as wolves among sheep. He insinuates that the ones who plead guilty were cowards. The countryside starting from Salemtown he paints as littered with the mangled remains of people victimized in a tragic infamous rampage. To my knowledge no one has successfully contradicted him except Cotton Mather who called it slander. The only thing in the way of a defense was based on interpretation of dreams. Otherwise known as ‘spectral evidence.

I got interested in mysticism because I was concerned about its influence on Christianity. I dont think that witchcraft was the main issue, in fact there have been and are a lot of Christian mystics out there. There is however no such thing as a Christian wiccian, even though they are both religions they are incompatable and mutually exclusive. I would advise caution when approaching Wicca or any of the other mystery religions, you might open doors that you cant close.

This of course assumes that the person in question has any interest in Christianity whatsoever, which Victoria has already stated that she doesn't. The question wasn't "Are Christianity and Wicca compatible", it was "Is Wicca a legitimate religion."

All questions don't revolve around Christianity.

I said it was a legitimate religion! Then I said that I personally think it's spiritually detrimental.
Can I not have an OPINION!?

Edit to add: I said that there were other major world religions with more to offer, I never referred to Christianity specifically.

Cephus.

Victoria did say that the question of whether or not it is spiritually harmfull was up for debate. I expressed the opinion that while it is clearly religious it is dangerous at times. Billy Jean mentioned that it was dangerous and I was responding to that. I have no interest in comparing it to Christianity as a religion just pointing out that the witch hunts demonstrated a gross ignorance of what Wicca rely is, or what religion is supposed to be for that matter. If I strayed off topic I apologise.

The personal attacks and private arguments between members here on this thread IS not constructive to the debate. Please stop it.

The original question posed by Victoria was: Is Wicca a legitimate religion, a harmless fad, spirtually harmful, or something else?

I want to thank you all for your opinions, which I find very interesting.

My own interest in Wicca comes from several factors. I admire its feminist leanings, its respect for nature, and its overall sense of peacefulness. I admire its moral code ("An it harm none, do what thou wilt.") (I should add here that, although at first glance this seems to be a rather lax moral code, in fact it is remarkably strict. It is difficult to imagine any action -- and, even more strongly, any lack of action -- which will not harm someone in some indirect way.)

To answer my own question, I think it is a legitimate religion which is "faddish" in some ways; but it is a fad I welcome.

simple...there are religions that I don't particularly agree with but I don't necessarily deem them spiritually detrimental because they do have teachings and values which are worthwhile IMO. To me religion and spirituality are not mutually exclusive. Some of the more spiritual people I know are not particularly "religious." You are of course welcome to disagree with me on this.

Thank you for explaining the aspects or at least finding examples of aspects that you find to be spiritually unsound.

Christanity has mystical properties also. Communion for example and babtism to list two. I realize not quite in the same magical witchy sort of way. From my understanding much of the "magic" practiced by wiccan coverns is more a mental power type thing. In other words: concentrating mental energies on healing and not the modern picture of a witch with a cauldron throwing in birds feathers, frogs eyes and spices. Much of it is mystical in a similar way to communion or babtism in Christianity.

To answer your question about structure:
Wicca (as I understand it, feel free to correct me if anybody is a practicing wiccan or particularly knowledgeable on the subject) is not organized in the same way as Judaism, Christianity etc. There is not one book for all covens to go by. Since it is about bringing back extinct religions and rituals each coven interprets things and writes their book (I forget right off hand what they call it, The book of Shadows... I think) in its own way but based on the same or similar principles and basics. I know that it was largely underground for a long time and thus there was not a high degree of communication between different covens in the same area much less country or world wide, so there are formed different branches often pretty drastically different in practices.

Satanism and wicca are extremely different. Satanism worship is one of the devil (from christianity). Wicca is not. Wiccans worship a mother goddess (similar to Diana or Artemis the Roman/Greek goddess) and have a horned god in some cases (NOT the christian devil tho). Wicca is a much more feminine based religion. Satanism and Wicca happen to share symbols and have a slightly similar style of gathering. That doesn't make them the same thing or even close. The beliefs of each are completely different. IMO Satanism is "dark" but Wicca is not. *As to where I came about this information www.religioustolerance.com and a large book on Witches I acquired ironically last Christmas in some gift exchange type game thing.


I tend to agree. If you are going to research and learn about any religion different from your own then you have to exercise caution and be aware that it might open difficult doors.

Victoria: I like it for many of the same reasons you do, however I can not see myself ever practicing it. I simply can take from what I understand of it the positive aspects and integrate them into my belief system the same goes for christianity (tho less so since I grew up with it) and buddism.

Emphasis added

You might find this information about Satanism helpful, Billy Jean (or anyone else with a misconception of Satanism simply being devil worshippers).


As religions go, yes I believe Wicca is a legitimate religion. While I don't believe Wicca itself is a fad I do feel that the current level of interest is a fad. In regards to "spiritual" risk associated with religions I think Wicca is probably one of the healthiest and least dangerous religions out there.

Really? There is much in Christianity, depending on the denomination, which is magickal by definition. Many, if not most, of the sacraments, mysteries, and miracles practiced or contemplated especially by the more orthodox Christian faiths are acts of magick: the sacrament of marriage, for example, in which the faithful believe that two discrete individuals are made "one flesh" - or the celebration of the mass (whether one believes in trans- or consubstantiation) is definitely a magickal act. And this is to say nothing on the many miracles which the faithful believe Jesus himself effected: acts of divine magick, every one. I would hardly consider Christ "Satanic" - would you?


Those are extremely superficial points of similarity, Billy - someone is really grasping to make a point here. And it's a game anyone can play: Was it not a star which lead the magi (Satanists?) to Bethlehem? Did the horns of that star point up or down I wonder? And a ritual circle is unique to Wicca and Satanism? The Celtic cross is superimposed on a circle, the Universalist Church places the cross off-center in a circle symbolizing eternity, the sacred circle of the halo or nimbus is used to depict holiness in Christian art, rose windows in cathedrals are circular, baptismal fonts are circular, the rings symbolizing eternal love in Christian marriages are circles. And I've already mentioned Christian magic - from the conception of Jesus to his resurrection, his life was one magick act after another - water into wine, the proliferation of loaves and fishes, healing the sick, walking on water, raising the dead, etc., etc., etc. The contradictions here are interesting. Wiccans aren't Christian, but they're similar? Or should I say Satanists aren't Christian, but they're similar?

In fact, that last point is the most pertinent. Wicca has nothing to do with Satanism or with Christianity. Satanism, on the other hand, is a variant of Christianity: it presupposes a belief in Christ and Satan. In other words, without Christianity, Satanism would not be possible. Satanism is essentially a perversion of Christianity and, if you want to talk about similarities, there is way more overlap here - as a prerequisite. Satanists believe in the Biblical Satan; their rituals include the symbolism of the cross, the celebration of mass, a parallel priesthood, a similar communion, even the recitation of the Lord's Prayer.

Satanism is, in short, a Christian religion - albeit an inverted one. Wicca, on the other hand, has nothing whatsoever to do with the traditions of either.


What's outdated about Celtic or Satanic cults? Celtic religions have been practiced continuously for millennia. Does longevity constitute "dated"? If so, Christianity is more "dated" than Satanism, which only arose well after Christian cults were established. And if you think Wicca lacks structure or "life meaning philosophy", then you haven't looked into it closely enough. Or, perhaps, you've only seen sources which are critical of - and prejudiced against - Wicca...

Wicca being a into nature is very aware of the astrological movement of the stars especially the moon. Diana was the moon godess and Wiccans are carefull to follow the phases of the lunar cycles being waxing, wanning or full. The Pentegram is an astrological sign and may or may not be Satanic in the Christian sense, it all depends I guess. The pentegram for the Wiccan will move as the stars move depending on the seasons. Actually its a cycle where the god, whose name escapes me at the moment, is born at the beginning of the year and dies at the end to be reborn again in the spring. Satanism on the other hand is very new, it actually has nothing to do with Satan, believe it or not. It is clearly a fad unlike Wicca which probably goes back to Babylon or maybe even Egypt. Mystery religions are notoriously ecclictic and secretive about there practices and covens may just be practicing some kind of occultism that is only partly Wiccia. I think there is a danger of demonic influence if they get heavily into invoking or their familar is actually not just a helpfull spirit guide. We are vulnerable in spiritual world because we are only partly spirit. The ocean is a nice place to visit but you probably dont want to live there, unless you grow gills.

Actually, the site I got my information from is:  http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_intr.htm
Note it's a RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE SITE. 



Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of me." Which I look at in the same light as Thanksgiving dinner. I also think that catholicism has a lot of mysticism in it and has strayed from the teachings of Christ.



Good point.     Alot of the Jews and Pharasis thought Jesus was a herotic.  His miracles were divine and could be preceved as magical.



Those simularities were quoted from the above mentioned site, which is pro- wicca.



Very true indeed. I have more of a concern with cults that mask themselves as "neutral", or "accommodating" to an organized religion than those that are blatantly opposed.



The symbols in Protestant faiths, are nothing more than symbols, representations of an inward faith. Those of wicca and catholicism are used as "channels". There's a big difference.

"Pro-Wicca"? It is a religious tolerance site attempting, it seems, to be tolerant of all those religions it discusses. In regards to your problems viewing it and any "magickal" religions as satanic, you might do well to take note for future discussions Satanism is not simply worship of the Judeo-Christian devil/Satan.

From the link I've already provided trying to stress this point, you might also check out this one, Billy Jean.

This would appear to be the Satanism the site refers to when it makes vague comparisons to Wicca.

I practiced Wicca for three years before I finally accepted my own atheism, but I have maintained the rule "An it harm none, do as thou wilt" as my main moral guideline. I also find Wicca attractive because of its affinity for nature and its aesthetic symbolism and ritualism. I have Wiccan friends, and I occassionally attend Wiccan festivals and drum frenzies.

Because I was involved in that scene for a period, I read a lot of books about Wicca and neo-paganism, and looking back upon it, I sometimes encountered a rather distorted version of history, and I saw a lot of writers trying to make the religion sound more legitimate by linking it to the past. While I don't believe that it's directly linked to the past, I do think that Wiccans have chosen the bits of pieces of history that they feel are the best and have created their own new religion. I don't think that makes the religion illegitimate. All religions have to begin sometime. Why not now? I think it's benevolent, and if someone finds their spiritual center through that particular religion, I support them whole-heartedly.

Additionally, it should be noted that there are as many sects of Wicca and neo-paganism as there are of Christianity...all with different traditions and beliefs.