I myself being Christian have stumbled upon an Aethiest based website. Within its pages it talks about such things as Aethiest marches against Christians, Aethiest parents trying to keep their children from finding Christian beliefs, and other topics concerning keeping Christianity out of their lives.

I do not understand why exactly the Aethiests have such conflict with the Christians. It was my understanding that the Aethiest believes in no God; why then, do they worry about Christianity in the world, if they believe no God exists?

Perhaps you would offer your insites into this topic, if you yourself are an Aethiest, I would be thankful if you offered your views. Thank-you.

Sincerely,

Locke

Well, I don't mean to offend you (I am really sorry if I do but this is based on what an atheist friend told me) but the number one cause of atheists out there are because of Christians. If you note that Christians sort of force their believe on others like this "You don't believe in our religion? You are going to hell!".
And if you don't believe me that they sort of force their religion on others, take a look at one of the members here. I remember somebody was talking (though I don't know who) about a Jehovah's witness was around the area and he/she shut all the windows and doors, and blocked out a really nice day to avoid them. I myself am not a Christian or an Atheist. For I believe in the force (sigh...yes I am a jedi, and I would appreciate nobody laugh. But I am up to challenges! ) but I also believe in God.
But anyway I digress. But once again, I think you can find somewhere on the Internet that the number one cause of people being atheists are Christians. Like I stated before. I am sorry if I offended you. That was not the purpose of this post.

I am an athiest, and I just want to say that not all athiests have a conflict with all Christians. Just like Christianity, there are athiests with moderate veiws and there are those with extreme veiws.

I can say that, as an athiest, I would not want my child to be exposed to Christian beliefs alone. I would rather they experience all religion, including athiesm, and make a decision on their own. If that decision happened to be Christianity, so be it.

Well it seems everyone is starting off stating where they stand in relation to their dis/belief in God. I would call myself agnostic. I have no idea if there is a god, I doubt we'll know in my lifetime, but I'm not writing the concept off altogether.

I think the athiest-christian fight is something that is unique to free nations. Only in a place where people can freely chose to be an athiest can this debate exist.

Statistically speaking, the majority of free nations in the world right now have risen from a christian background. That is why the debate appears to be concentrated between christians and athiests - because most of the free population lies in one of those two categories.

One reason I think athiests claim to be bothered by christians is "witnessing." Some christians feel they need to spread the word of god to those who don't believe. Some will also preach to you whether you want to hear it or not. People who "witness" can not be muted as easily as the television.

On the athiest side of things, I think it is ridiculous when they try and force cities to take down Christmas trees or Mennorahs in town squares. They need to learn to deal with diversity.

Locke asked to hear from athiests on this (thanks for chiming in, cyan). In addition to that, I would like to hear from christians who feel it is ok to preach the word of god to those who don't want to listen.

I am an agnostic although brought up as a Methodist.

I believe that the source of all goodness is within us as individuals and don't need to belong to one of the many 'God' clubs to prove it.

I am NOT a pacifist, if my way of life is disturbed, un-disturb it.

These 'God' clubs have caused many millions of deaths throughout history and are still doing it under the pretext of so called religion.
They always have some excuse for killing other human beings.

Lets take a few that springs to mind.
Spanish inquisition....... Done in the name of THEIR God club.
The destruction and pillaging of the Incas....Done in the name of THEIR God club again.
The Knights Templars who killed tens of thousands....Done in the name of THEIR God club again.

And more recently..........
WW2 when the Pope recognised the Nazis and allowed them to wear 'Gott Mitt Uns' (God is with us ) on their belt buckles.
The sectarian killings in N. Ireland.....In the name of THEIR God club.
The destruction and suicide bombings in the middle east..........Done in the name of THEIR God club.

NEVER... EVER will I belong to one of those 'peaceloving' clubs.

Regards.......Alan

This is very true. While I think that most Christians who try to convert athiests have good intentions, it is very offensive.



I agree. People should have the right to celebrate their religious beliefs in a public, just as athiests have the right to not celebrate.

Because their God told them to.

There's a right way and a wrong way to witness. Shoving it down someone else's throat is not conducive to convincing anybody of anything. But I think Christians get a bad rap because everything they do gets labeled as 'shoving' even if it is the most quiet and innocuous get together.

I think a more productive way to witness is to do it through actions before you do it with words.

Here's my take:
The thing is my life I have the most respect for is the TRUTH plain and simple. Therefore it is very difficult for me to understand those who don't want to discuss such an important issue as religion. This included christians who speak to atheists as well as atheists who speak to christians. So I'm not inclined to have sympathy for atheists who don't want to hear from christians or vice versa.

To me it is a question of 'deeds not words'.

Who is the most christian?.
They who choose to belong to no club but practice everyday humanity.
Or they that belong to a club and do not practice it.

There are as many non-humanitarians in clubs as there are not in clubs.

I choose not to be in a club because then I am free to follow my own brand of christianity unhampered by the club rules and prejudices.

Regards.Alan

How could you not want your child to grow up with some kind of religion and have morals, teach them what is right and wrong? I think that is wrong.

I myself grew up in Christianity, and I am very thankful my mom exposed this to me.

I was raised without religion, but does that make me immoral? Perhaps. I've never really understood that term.

I don't think it was wrong of my parents. My parents fit a traditional definition of good parents, minus the religion. I'd like to think I've grown up healthy and normal.

Wasn't Locke looking for athiests at the start of this post? Joemailman where are you ?

A person doesn't have to believe in god or subscribe to a religion to have morals.

I've been an atheist for most of my life and have never felt the need to convert christians muslims or any other persuasion of religious myths. My interest is the mechanistic point of view and behaviorism as a psychology came later in life at around the age of 18. In the years until now I can assure you that my point of view has not wavered at all and the more I concern myself with the behavior of the religious the more I am convinced that they too do not buy the package....for a very simple reason.
The behavior of the religious does not coincide with their so-called beliefs.
Try and to understand this analogy. Their maker and controller of all things including their lives and their well being "installs" in them the notion of "free will" and then throws them into an obviously impossible life of continuously contradicting influences beginning in infancy and probably before that. Then it expects these humans to behave in ways that they are totally unprepared for. Don't believe me. Just read their "holy" books and watch how society raises their youth. After that watch what happens. I think you'll find that there have been wars, destructions, and a thousand other kinds of social barbarity....many in the name of their particular ghost and most in accordance with ignorance and economic scarcity. Even without that comparison watch how they run to their doctors, lawyers, plumbers, electricians, etc. etc. when there is a problem in the measurable world. Never do they turn to the maker and controller of all things for assistance. They may take a moment or two to drop to one knee and ask for guidance but they always turn to the reality of physics which, of course, usually takes much more time than a half an hour on both knees.
Most so-called religious persons only get small bits of information regarding the possibility of life without ghosts and spirits. American Atheists have been able to coalesce a body of information for those who are interested in exploring definitions for the physical world and the aims and purposes of their organization. I've been a member for years and have always found their publications and available information interesting. If you are interested you can find them at www.atheists.org.
Semantics is generally regarded as another boring science in most schools and this culture, as well as most, do not concern themseves with the validity of the language they use to describe reality. It is only within the sciences that cultural language cannot refer to the invisible, spiritual or supernatural with any confidence.
But our culture is neither scientific nor is it referential physically in it's language. It is at the very least opportunistic of the tools of science and expoitive of the results of their use. At the very most it is barbaric and crude. The foundation for this point of view is the idea of free will and personal responsibility. It is appropriate for this foundation to dominate in a world of competition and scarcity.

We must remember that the Christian faith has not always brought about happy times, and in saying that, its followers have not always had the greatest morals. Look at the crusades. They were brought about to fight for Christianity and look at the morals of the leaders behind them. They set out to persecute or destruct other religious groups while at the same time trying to gain power. When someone or some group tries to increase the amount of human power they have, that means they have to take the power away from others. In doing this, they sent innocent children and faithful followers off to die. They may have been Christians, but their morals were lacking.
Now don't get me wrong, I am a Christian and I feel like Christianity has a big part to do with that, but morals are oftened learned and developed outside of religion. Perhaps what iwcbthomas was trying to say was that Christianity was the tool her mom used to help establish the morals she wanted her to have. And for the record, I am not saying that religion is a crutch like Governor Ventura suggested.

Funny story about a christian (and pretty common)

Lisa Beamer, wife of one of the flight 93 victims, wrote a book about her families experience. In a closing chapter discussing the motivations of the 9/11 hijackers she made the comment, "and they justified their act as the will of god, as if the *god of the bible* would justify killing and hatred"

Lisa Beamer never really read her bible and i dont believe most christians do either. She must have skipped the part with god ordering the death penalty for dozens of crimes and urging the jews to butcher the tribes of palestine, including women and children. But then they usually admit their faith isnt rational, what else is there to say.

What I want to know is how can you be an Athiest. If there is no God then what is the point in us being here? Oh and how do you know that Mrs. Beamer did not read her Bible? Christians do not overlook that. God had the Jews HIS people not anyone else destroy people in the OT. He only destroys sin. In the nine eleven case it was not an act of God. It was an act of terrorism.

I still say the fighting in N. Ireland is not about religion...really. I'd like to hear Wertz's take on it, since he has lived in Ireland.

MT

Atheists have just as much faith as Christians. Kurt Vonnegut said it takes more faith to be an atheist then a Christian. They have faith in the world they live in. Didn't Bob Marley say "If you know what life is worth you will look for yours on earth." That's what atheists believe. I have faith what I do on Earth is enough and I can have peace knowing that. I can't prove there is an afterlife but I know I'd like one.

Regarding the disdain felt for Christians, I think it simply comes from being a minority to people that are not always accepting of anyone else's beliefs. (Christians have been known to burn others at the stake in our not so long history). The other religions don't pose a threat to anyone else's here in the U.S. They don't attemp to get their ideas taught in school or posted on the courthouse walls or other government entities which is seen as arrogant. Plus they believe we're all going to burn in hell for all eternity and that just isn't very nice.

Regarding Morality, it comes from empathy and a do-to-others way of thinking. It's very simple and much more effective than a morality imposed by the promise of heavenly reward and the threat of eternal punishment.

Instead of a promise of eternal life, I believe that this one time around is the only shot I will ever have at living, so I'd better make the most of it while I still exist.

Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

I think most believers in Christianity see only black and white.
You are either a Christian believer or an Atheist with Agnostics falling into the latter group.

I posted some time back that I was Agnostic.
I do not unconditionally believe in God, nor do I unconditionally believe the words written in the Bible.
The operative words are....UNCONDITIONALLY.
If this makes me an Atheist in the eyes of Christians.......so be it.

I have only one simple credo in my life.

I WILL NOT DELIBERATELY CAUSE HURT TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.

Christians may say it is written somewhere within the ten commandments.
It is to their shame that Christian history has ignored it.

I will not.

Regards.....Alan

While not exactly an atheist, my beliefs wouldn't really coincide with those of any organized religion - and I certainly have no belief in some personified creator-god or an afterlife. I agree that the problem many atheists have with many Christians is the proselytizing - and the self-righteousness, even if it's unconscious. The presumption, for example, that religion (or, specifically, Christianity) is prerequisite for any kind of moral or ethical values is patently absurd and offensive in the extreme. To be offensive right back, I would suggest that while most Christians are far more hypocritical than most atheists, they are no more moral - and many are much less so.

If nothing else, most atheists tend to be much more thoughtful about their beliefs (or lack thereof) than most Christians (at least, many atheists have thought about it) - and far more curious about the world in general. The majority of the Christians I know have seldom questioned their particular set of beliefs or even looked beyond their own denomination. And most of their beliefs are still pretty much on a Sunday School level without much - if any - depth of thought about religion, their particular dogma, spirituality, morality, or much of anything else. I know I'm way over-generalizing here, but I am speaking only of my own experience. I have been studying religion off and on for more than thirty years and have found that it is much easier to engage atheists in discussions about religion than adherents to a particular sect (most of whom can't even tell you what the most basic dogma of their denomination are). In my experience, it seems nothing closes minds more tightly than a set of strongly held religious beliefs. And I think this is perhaps the main problem that a lot of non-believers have with a lot of believers, regardless of the faith in question.


OFF-TOPIC ALERT

To address Madtown's query regarding Wood's observation:

Quite right, MT, the troubles in Northern Ireland have nothing to do with sectarianism. The issue is not Protestant vs. Catholic, it is Unionist vs. Republican. The native Irish population in the North wants freedom - they want independence from the British crown (sound familiar?). The war is about ceding from the United Kingdom and becoming part of the Republic of Ireland (uh, that's why it's called the Irish Republican Army, not the Irish Catholic Army). Almost coincidentally, the bulk of the native population is Irish Catholic - the bulk of the colonialist settlers (who wish to remain part of the Union, for obvious reasons) happen to be Scottish Presbyterians. But, in point of fact, there are Protestants on both sides and Catholics on both sides - as well as a substantial portion of Marxist atheists, particularly within the Republican movement. The British propaganda machine has tried to define the conflict in terms of a religious war, but the truth is obvious to - and accepted by - almost everyone except a few of Britain's less informed allies and the tabloid press.

The Irish Catholic Church has always - always - been opposed to violence in the North and has consistently lobbied for a negotiated resolution of the conflict. Granted, there are individual priests who secretly support the efforts of the Republican freedom-fighters, but they are a distinct minority - and a few of them have been excommunicated for more overt support of military action. There are a few outspoken proponents of Unionism who are members of the clergy, such as the hideous Ian Paisley, who will often characterize the opposition as "Papists" - but even they are more interested in economic ties with Britain than spiritual ties with God, in terms of the conflict. Certainly the official position of both the Presbyterian church and the Church of England is as non-violent as that of the Catholic Church.

The struggle is about land, about disenfranchisement, about being free or subject to the crown. Religious "differences" are virtually irrelevant.

Of course Christians as many complaints with atheists (I personally prefere debate to complaint, but this is getting one sided ) among them.

1. Condescending attitude to those who belive in a god (even though there is no proof (or solid reasoning ) to the contrary).

2. Evaluation of a religion by what it supporters have done in the past. (The crusades happened therefore Christianity and Islam are violent religions )

3. Unwillingness to discuss belief in a god (this of course often applies to both sides)

There are more I'm sure...

I like discussions about the belief in God. It's usually the other person that stomps away mad.

Danya: Oh, yeah? I'm taking my God and going home!

An Oglala Souix shaman and college professor once told me to lighten up on my criticism of religion because "it may be their only connection to the Great Spirit."

So I guess the self-righteousness of people who I consider spiritual children is annoying. I'll only open my mouth if there's some chance of a sincere discussion, otherwise it isn't worth the effort. Eh, we will all eventually figure it out.

The atheist stance is an honest one. I doubt the faith of many professed believers due to their open mouths.

I am a Goombhanian. I have found using the Goombhanian chokehold to get converts tends to produce only temporary converts.

I saw this thread, and felt as though I had to add my two cents. Being agnostic, I generally don't appreciate having organized religion pushed in my face. I don't try to pawn off my beliefs on anybody, and the constitution protects my right to worship as I choose. Many "Christians", do not respect my right not to worship in the same way that they do.
While I believe in accepting diversity, what I don't prefer to accept is having my tax dollars used for religious displays, whether at Xmas, Chaunuka, Kwanzaa, or any other holiday. Government has no business sponsoring religion in any way. If you want to set up a public display, do it on your church grounds, but don't spend my hard-earned money doing it.

Sirs and Ladies,

This is Locke, the one who started this post. I felt strongly about it when I started it and feel that I should add my own opinions.

First of all, I feel that the view of Christians proposed within this discussions has often been stereotyped, but not necessarily all so. I've read that a general opinion from the Aetheist responders (and I thank-you all much for your contributions), that they feel that Christianity is rather forced in our society within the government and the general public. The fact that our country was founded upon Christian principles most definitely plays a part that the central religion in the United States is Christianity.

While I admit that Christianity is very present within our society, I do not feel that it is force fed to non-believers, and those that do persist at promotion to them in my opinion, are not acting with the morals that God intended nor a good code used for socializing.

I respect as people, Aetheists who are polite and thoughtful on their opinions about religion, however, I have found numerous pictures and web site dedicated to the depersonification Christians. I've found such things as cartoons of a Christian being shot by an Aethiest. Atheists who feel the need to do these things, I do not respect.

It has also been said on this post that Christians do not ponder and think deeply of their beliefs. I say this is not so, although some choose to blindly accept a faith without for themselves discovering its compositions. I am in fact, one who deeply considers such things as meta-phyiscs, the creation of the universe, and how faith may be applied to it all. Unless you are yourself a Christian, you cannot generalize that they do not delve into their faith.

Well, this concludes my opinions of the Christian view and Aethiest view. I thank all of you who answer to this post and hope you continue to trade opinions and views in as respectable way as possible.

Sincerely,

Locke

Atheists who are constantly on the attack against theists are qualitatively no better than Theists who bully their beliefs onto others. Both are coming from, oddly enough, the same place - their belief systems are exclusionary and bigoted. There are some people for whom religion (or it's lack) is nothing more than a tool to achieve some sense of being a member of a "chosen" or elite group, for the security that provides. For those people, the "other" is the most heinous enemy of all, because their entire belief structure is propped up on the very idea of the "other" as being in fundamental opposition to the group of chosen few. To denigrate someone's religious beliefs is silly and futile, because these are matters of much more than reason and fact.

I love to debate about religion, but personally I think it is completely unimportant whether there is a god or not, whether there is an afterlife or not. As a Zen Buddhist, my belief is based solely on the ethics of compassion and realization. I'll find out the rest (or not) when I die! For now, the main thing is to practice present mindfulness and always, compassion.

I didn't read this thread, I'm only commenting on the title. (It's late and I'm tired.)

Why does it only say "Christians" when most of the world religions believe in God?

Did you read the bible? I must have missed the part about the woman and children. And also, I know many Christians who know the bible by heart. And a lot of the bible is to be interpreted, not taken literally, only people who try to disproove the Bible take it literally.

CP

Conservpat - um...you're debating a banned member

From Jaime:


While in itself up for debate, I would venture to say that the majority of free nations in the world right now have arisen from a Christian background as a result of the violence perpetrated in the name of YHWH.

It wasn't until approximately 325 that various scripture writings from "Christians" were taken by the Roman government and elected into a compilation to later become known as the Bible. Once this religion overtook the Zoroastrian based mythology of Mithras, Constantine marched into battle under the sign of the cross to subdue lands. As a result of assimilation, Christianity found the ingredients it needed to blossom.

As years went by, people interpreted the bible in different ways. Of course, for those in power to use religion as a political tool, they needed to insure that the public all believed the same ideas, lest there be a revolution of ideas -- and potentially a revolution of arms. From this desire to weild Christianity as a political tool we have the Crusades against the Muslims (also an attack meant to claim holy land), the Inquisition and Spanish Inquisition (two separate entities) and the witch hunts that spread throughout Europe and the Americas.

This may all seem off topic, but I'm laying the foundation of why some atheists I know (myself included) have a strong aversion to "witnessing" or exposing young family members or children to religion -- Christianity especially. The history of Christianity is a bloody and oppressive one with each group claiming they've been or are being persecuted, all the while persecuting another sect themselves.

While Christians aren't marching on crusades or burning people at the stake today, I find it disturbing that so many are clamouring for such a stake of power in our government. Is not an appeal or prayer to god enough for them? Why do they feel they must wield the power of the court and justice system? By my nature, I can't in good conscience trust somebody so hungry for power.
(ie: evangelicals such as Falwell, Robertson and others)

If I had children today, I wouldn't mind if they were exposed to religion, so long as they understood it as (the way I see it) a series of stories to explain how our culture came about. Beyond that I see that many religions seem to foster ignorance through denial, an oft deadly sense of arrogance and a long history of intolerance.

I'll spare my reasons for being atheist as it hasn't seemed to be pertinent to this thread. For now I'll leave it that I avoid religion and oppose religion in government because in the hands of those in power it has always lead to the persecution and tyranny over the masses. This isn't to say that beliefs don't have their place in society, but they should be left to each individual to find and deal with.