In the Maxim vs Cosmo thread here at AD the complaint that women are being objectified and demeaned by such magazines. While I have had similar questions and ideas in my head before, Ataal chose to fight through the sticky pages and address this issue for us.

Granted, there are some strippers or prostitutes who likely have little or no alternative than said professions. But the rest of them -- the actresses, models, sex symbols, and other strippers or prostitutes -- choose to carry on in a manner which no doubt objectifies women. In the sense of what Ataal brought up, men are often held to be the culprit, but:

• Isn't it the woman who does it to herself?

(In the sense of those I mentioned)

Additionally, though, I'm curious to see an opinion on another related matter. For those women choosing to continue the objectification of women:

• Are they simply demeaning women, or are they also empowering them, albeit inadvertantly?

For example consider a stripper. For all her profession adds to the objectification of women, isn't it possible for well brought up women to choose such a profession to instead exploit the gullibility of the man who comes to view her?

When I think of gullibility, I think of someone getting ripped off because he was gullible or at the very least he's easily deceived. In the example of a strip club, men get what they went to there to get, which is a peek at the goods. Men buy hustler because they want to see naked women, and that's what they get. Women know this, and some want to get in on that cash cow. If anything, they're taking advantage of something that is somewhat of a weakness in a lot of men.

I honestly just can not see how people can make the women in these cases the victims. I personally don't think there is a victim, it's a win-win scenario. She gets money, we get a few moments of pleasure. Hmmm, when put like that, it sounds a little too close to prostitution.

I think it is possible for persons in the sex industry to be victimized, certainly. In the most extreme cases, these persons may be literally forced to engage in these activities. Almost as tragic are those persons who engage in these activites out of economic desperation and/or substance addiction.

I have no problem at all with the sex industry when it is freely engaged in by persons who choose this profession. Personally, I would like to see the day when working in this industry was as well-paid and respected as other professions; when saying "I'm a prostitute" would be no more shocking than saying "I'm a dental technician."

I agree with Vicky. Its often such that women are forced by economic circumstances into becoming strippers or prostitutes and I think that this is why many feminists have a problem with the adult industry.

And I don't blame them. For example; I do not want to look at a naked woman if that woman is only showing me her body because she needs to feed her children, I'd rather she was showing me herself because she got pleasure from it.
Otherwise its just exploitation of another persons weakness, and that disturbs me. Not because I feel that the woman is doing something wrong, or because I feel guilty at looking at her. But because I know there is an invisible third party in the equation, taking my money and giving her a percentage of it.

I have no problem with a woman (or a man) stripping or selling their 'favours' for money, providing they get to keep that money for themselves.

Barring physical harm or the threatening of your family, I cant think of one reason a woman is forced to become a prostitute. There are always alternatives, lower paying possibly, but there are alternatives.

Do you have any problems with taking a ride in a taxi driven by a man who is driving only because he needs to feed his children?

What about being served in a cafe by a woman who hates her job yet works so she can feed her children?

Most of the time, yes, it is the woman who does it to her self. In some cultures a woman circumcises herself with a broken piece of glass and celebrates it as a right of passage. The question is always why? Why do we see sexualized women on the covers of both Cosmo and Maxim when one of them is suppose to be a women’s magazine? Are women always attracted to sexy women as much as men are? I don’t think so. So there must be some other message flying off the cover of Cosmo other than ‘you want to sleep with this woman.’ Lets try, you want to ‘be’ this woman. But when was the last time anyone saw a female airplane mechanic on the cover of Cosmo? Are there not women who want to be that? Or is it more important to be a sexual critter? How many men shave their legs, wear nylons and make-up and spend over a $100 on their hair every month to hold down a job that pays just above minimum wage?

This I think is ridiculous, how do women empower each other by demeaning each other? To me, that’s like telling a woman that she can display power by being submissive. However, women are some of the biggest culprits in conforming other women into feminine roles. If a feminine woman has power, what power does she have? The power to catch herself a man? The power to manipulate or coerce a man? The power to bake a County Fair winning pumpkin pie? Often times when a woman deviates from their social role they are called many demeaning things. Bitch magazine has tons of these stories.

Don’t confuse gullibility with viewing pleasure. I have met many college-educated women who strut their stuff down the catwalk because nothing else can pay up to $500 a night for them. But stripping is quite a bit different profession than prostitution. Prostitution is a dangerous profession. I don’t even like calling it a profession. The high relative risk of contracting an STD, how often women are physically assaulted, the exposure to illicit drugs, and for many there is the oppressive power of their pimp who is not likely to be investigated by the EEOC. Some of the best pimps in the world happen to be women. Take a look at HBO’s documentary Pimps Up Hos Down, or the book A Woman at Point Zero by Nawal El Saadawi or Shaw’s play Mrs Warren’s Profession. But in many places around the world, no matter how well brought up a women is, if she is not married with children and have a house to keep then she is out on the street corner trying to make a living.

The problem with this debate is that it needs to be focused. Right now there are three issues being hashed out. The sexualized marketing that objectifies women, the power structure that women enforce upon themselves by demeaning each other, and the ethical dilemmas between strippers and prostitutes. Wow, there are some serious books we could write here on these issues, and I’m not about to become Simone de Beauvoir any time soon.

Most of the time, barring certain unfortunate circumstances, it is a conscious decision on the part of the woman, and I have no problem with that whether the woman is an actress, model, sex symbol, stripper or prostitute. Each of these positions is very different, and women may choose each of them for very different reasons. To categorize them in a blanket like manner as being demeaning to women doesn't make sense to me. Certainly there are circumstances where they might be demeaning, but I don't see that as the rule.



That is a possibility, yes. Isn't it also possible that a well brought up woman might choose such a profession because she enjoys it, and isn't it also possible that a situation that might be considered demeaning to one woman will also be considered empowering to another?



I think you’re right, Lorax. I’ve been working on a lengthy response to your last post, and I feel like with each issue that I discuss, I’m straying wildly off topic. Based on that, I’ve opened some new debates:

Feminine Roles: Tradition and modernism at odds?
Media geared towards women

Edited more than three times to fix my links. Must have had too much coffee this morning.

In my personal opinion I think it's great that people would be a little more open with their own bodies and their own sexuality, these are important issues for the topic of self expression. How can one be expressive when they are self concious?
Will any level of self consoiusness deter even small amounts of expression? Can one be happy when inexpressive? Does it not empower people (and women as a whole group) to have the freedom to express themsleves in this way?

Abs,
As for your commentary that some people are strippers or prostitutes because they have little or no alternative, I can say that there are several charity (and social ) organizations that will help people get out of that lifestyle, help them get back to school, get work training, child care etc. There's no real excuse for stripping and prostituting.

Alternatively, I'll say that I go to school now with several Women of the Pornagraphy industry...they seem to be honest and admit they're just trying to make a quick buck so they can go to school without working. And when I was 18 I worked at a strip club, most women there were trying to pay for their children they had.

How about people who do it because they want to? Let's face it, there are people out there who are proud of their physical assets and want to use them to make a living. Stripping and prostitution, in general, are both very lucrative businesses for people who choose to be involved with them and who do so safely and securely. I don't think either should be necessarily restricted if women (or men) want to be strippers or prostitutes, so long as they do so of their own free will.

Well, the net is what, 70% or more porn in content now right? Women are doing very nasty things for no money alot of times, with help from thier men (or women) and I believe they are doing it to be kinky LOL

Exploitation is human nature. The "oldest profession" is the first try in commerce. Capitalism recognizes there is something to exploit here, so it is exploited.

I think that men and women exploit each other equally, it is human nature. A man wants a beautiful woman, and a woman wants a rich man. We are practically hard wired to treat each other as success objects or sex objects. It is when we lift ourselves out of this that we transend into love and respect.

I disagree with 'a woman wants a rich man'. I believe women want a man who will be there and make it work, lead the family to a certain success, through mutual agreement. Women are not so savvy as to want only rich men or there would be fewer struggling families, and certainely less women married to overweight, beer guzzling, emotionally vacant slobs, visiting strip clubs fantasizing about things they cannot ever have, or even half *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** afford.

Most people transcend the superficial and amazingly see great things in each other. In my mind a true observance of the existance of God on earth, because if not, it would be a really sad situation.

What does happen is money and the beautiful play power games with each other, strippers and prostitutes play on male players, one gets cash the other an ego boost. Short term gratification, all parties satisfied with the exchange.

These days women choose, if not in Asian shops where sometimes they are paying for their slavery. If men are foolish enough to be led by their testicles, then why women shouldnt take advantage and earn a pretty penny. Hey, the prostitutes old adage, 'its better than working at MacDonalds', and the men throw money away on their idiotic fantasies of actually being attractive to these women, sheesh. Can you spell PATHETIC. It serves them right to be taken, they go in looking for it. Got boob job! Im an idiot! Bling bling! How about a $20.



I so agree with this statement its the most important post Ive seen on AD since Ive been here, in my value system. When people realize that they have something special . Its too bad it doesnt happen often enough.

On topic, I cant imagine how anyone can assume or presume women deameaning others by media like Cosmo etc. None of this has anything to do with real WOMEN of today. It just hype. I may be out of the loop but arent these mags simple entertainment for teens? Surely nooone takes that crap seriously.

There’s a variable that seems to be missing in some of the posts here, so I’ll bring it up. WHICH women are being demeaned? Is it the sex worker/ stripper, or the wives and lovers who don’t quite live up to the standards of appearance and enthusiastic display of the sexual entertainer? How about future generations of girls who see the beautiful and lucrative side of the sex industry, but don't realize how short lived, dangerous, and unfulfilling it might be?
Is the not-so-beautiful and youthful mother of three adversely affected when her husband frequents a strip bar to view women he’s more attracted to? When he spends the family money for a lap dance? If anyone thinks that the 'demeanification of women' through the sex industry begins and ends with the female sex workers themselves, he/ she has their head in the sand.

Just a thought.

There are MANY times where women are forced into prostitution, especially if they come from poorer countries. There is very little information on the industry (due to its illegality) but to say that all prostitutes are prostitutes by choice is naive. I dont know if we're referring only to an American problem or not, but if we arent, I would like to point out that many prostitutes in Europe happen to come from Eastern Europe, and alot of them are forced into prostitituion, they come to the West under the pretence of a job and have their passports stolen and are forced to sell their body. There is also a thriving sex industry in the Far East, where family members are sold into it. But I doubt that anyone would be able to find a percentage of girls that work willingly and those that are forced into it.

Also, why is it ONLY demeaning to women? There are also male prostitutes and male strippers,is the same job not considered deameaning? I know this is the womens forum but they are so similar that the job status of males shouldnt be ignored entirely.

To answer the original question though, I do not think its demeaning for all women to strip or work as a prostitute. While Ive met few people that have the personality to seperate their sex life from their personal life, if they can and they can make money off of it, how is it demeaning? It all depends on the individual, and I had a friend who used to strip and she stopped because she couldnt handle the leery men, and it made her feel dirty. Ive met other strippers who only saw dancing as a means to make money and they didnt have the same problems, because after they left the club, it was over. On with the rest of life.

An interesting point to this is, I find, that its all dependant on the personality of the girls and seems to have little do with how society views her. There are plenty of women who take pleasure in their jobs in the sex industry, and others who dont, but it ultimately has to with THEM as an individual. I dont know if Im making any sense, but I remember going to high school with a girl that some viewed as a slut, and when I talked to her she had a very staight forward no-nonsense sort of approacha dn she told me "Ive been used by guys so much, I dont see why I cant do the same. They arent using me, Im using them" But what makes that distinction, except within the individual themself?

I was only referring to American prostitutes, and I stand by my statement, none of them are forced into prostitution. There are people living on the streets, there are people who work at McDonalds, not the greatest part of their life I'm sure, but they didn't have to become a prostitute and neither do the current prostitutes. There are a plethora of other choices.

That's probably true, but if her husband is running off for lap-dances, isn't it pretty obvious that there's a problem with the husband, not the stripper? After all, the stripper doesn't force the husband to go. The stripper doesn't force the husband to waste his money. The stripper doesn't force the husband to be dissatisfied with his wife. Seems the problem is with an immature guy, not a stripper.

You go girl, I totally agree with you. Otherwise Jr. High School and up should be considered the sex industry. It is too often I see little girls waiting at the bus stop wearing hip huggers and spandex tops which they haven't even begun to fill out yet...uh...what am I doing!...I'm checking out JAIL BAIT!

What is funny is when those "Girls Gone Wild" ads show on TV, my girlfriend gets into a huff: "When do I get to see Boys Gone Wild? When do I get to see guys pulling each other's clothes off and and rubbing their bodys together? Its not fair, I get to see girls doing it!" Of course I know it is not in her fantasy to have a couple of guys infront of her kissing each other's hairy chests hosted by Snoop Dogg. But this is a clear example of the media marketing itself to a male fantasy which says these women will do anything for you, even acts of homosexuality for "your" entertainment. If this is not demeaning toward women in general, then how come we are not seeing our Boys Gone Wild video on late night TV?

Here's the catch with that: what a man sees at a strip-club is *highly unlikely* to be a self-expression of the performer's own sexuality - it's an enactment of his own idealization of the woman's sexuality.

Without wanting to open the door to shrieks of broad generalizations (read: I know I'm about to make one, and I know its application is limited), I'll say this: That such displays "in the flesh" (pardon the pun! ) are so pervasive (strip clubs aside, didn't somebody say porno is now 70% of internet content...?) must ultimately reinforce male and female ideas about women's sexuality in general - which is that it is/should be completely catered toward male gratification.

The problem isn't what actually happens onstage (those women are at least making money!), but how this message finally filters into everyday interactions, where nearly everything is sexualized to some extent.

If women who go into the industry are victoms, what about the men that go into the industry are they vitoms too? -just food for thought.