Full Version: What if senarios...
I was watching the History Channel a while back and saw this really great show about "what if scenarios". The one that caught my fancy the most was "What if Hitler wouldn't have invaded Russia, but instead persistently bombed and invaded Great Britian?"
My question to the board, how differently would WW2 would have gone if he had done that? And, how do you think the world would be different now if 1)Hitler would have defeated England and Europe and struck a cease fire with the US and Russia 2) Hitler had never invaded Russia 3) japan had never bombed Pearl Harbor?
Would we have a UN? Would a unified Europe be a German superpower?
Post your ideas of how the war and world could have turned out....
My question to the board, how differently would WW2 would have gone if he had done that? And, how do you think the world would be different now if 1)Hitler would have defeated England and Europe and struck a cease fire with the US and Russia 2) Hitler had never invaded Russia 3) japan had never bombed Pearl Harbor?
Would we have a UN? Would a unified Europe be a German superpower?
Post your ideas of how the war and world could have turned out....
I think the eventual outcome would be the same. He attacked our cousins, and tho we have fought with our cousins, we don't allow outsiders to fight with our cousins.
A better scenario, or one that I have indulged some fantasy time in, is what if they had forgone persecuting the Jews, attacking Poland, France, etc. and just opted for Russia and only Russia. Would we have stood by and let him? Would China have felt threatened and allied with Russia against Germany?
Let me know if you see that one on History Channel.
A better scenario, or one that I have indulged some fantasy time in, is what if they had forgone persecuting the Jews, attacking Poland, France, etc. and just opted for Russia and only Russia. Would we have stood by and let him? Would China have felt threatened and allied with Russia against Germany?
Let me know if you see that one on History Channel.
No, that wasn't on the History channel BUT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN!!! 
That's a great "what if scenerio..." 
Expand on it if you would....
That's a great "what if scenerio..." Expand on it if you would....
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1)Hitler would have defeated England and Europe and struck a cease fire with the US and Russia
Well, we wouldn't "all be speaking German". And after summer 1940 (the Battle of Britain), Hitler would have struggled to beat Britain as he didn't have superior air power. My guess is that, eventually, Britain would have fought to the point where we couldn't have fought any more, and we would have come to an uneasy peace with Greater Germany. I'm not sure whether he would have tried to invade if he had no reason to fear that our islands could be used as a bridgehead for a superior allied (i.e. American) force. I think Hitler rather liked Britain and imagined before the war that we'd be an ally not an enemy. But there would not now be a state of Israel, or indeed very many Jews left anywhere outside the USA.
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2) Hitler had never invaded Russia
Now, if he hadn't done that I think he could quite easily have invaded Britain, although (again) I'm not sure he would have wanted to do so had America never have been involved in the War.
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3) japan had never bombed Pearl Harbor?
America would not have entered the war at all. I think you would have continued the supply lines to the UK, without actual military aid, which I why I think we'd have been able to continue to pose a threat to Germany and repel at least one invasion attempt.
Another few what ifs:
What if Britain had supressed the American Revolution (we call it the War of Independence), and/or offered Westminster representation in return for continued British rule?
What if the French/Spanish/British struggle for dominance of North America in the 17th and 18th centuries had not been won by the British? What would America look like now?
What if Japan and Germany had not signed the Axis treaty, so Germany would not have declared war on the USA automatically when the USA declared war on Japan? Would America have entered the war in Europe?
What if Russia and /or China had been active Axis partners? Would the Allies have won?
Food for thought, isn't it?
I read something about an british operation to assasinate hitler, i always thougth they may have ended things sooner if that was allowed to take place, or if it would have made things worse.
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What if Britain had supressed the American Revolution (we call it the War of Independence), and/or offered Westminster representation in return for continued British rule?
Would people in the Western Hemosphere be driving on the "wrong side of the road"?
BTW, why is there the difference? Washington brought up on crimes against the Crown....
I love these kind of things!
One of the motivations for invading Russia was getting Russia's oil. Hitler needed oil from somewhere other than Romania. I think he would have invaded the Middle Eastern oil fields by way of Turkey. This would also allow him to cut off British access to their colonies on the other side of the Suez canal. If that happened I think America would fight and win a war against Germany much more like the Cold war than WWII.
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If that happened I think America would fight and win a war against Germany much more like the Cold war than WWII.
So by that scenerio, your saying that the "German Cold War" would have lasted for many years, like the real Cold War?
Very, very interesting....
If Hitler had not stalled during Operation Barbarossa (the invasion of Russia) I firmly believe that we all may be speaking German today...
The problem was that Hitler did not trust Stalin (who would?). He hated communists worse than anyone (and that says alot).
The invasion of Russia itself was not what lost Hitler the war. The failed invasion did. If Hitler could have taken Moscow prior to the Winter of 1941, then he would have had a decent chance at eliminating the "two front" scenario that ulitimately lost him the war.
[URL=When did Hitler lose the war ?]When did Hitler lose the war ?[/URL]
The German army was the pinnacle of its time. That was not enough for it to win the war, however.
That was scenario #2.
As for Scenario #1:
Tough to say....Hitler was a megalomaniac and probably would have made a deal with one side to backstab the other. Then, when the one side (presumably the Russians) were taken out, he would turn on his "allies".
Scenario #3 may be the most interesting...The US was in a period of isolationism. The war in Europe was not a great concern. The economy was recovering (slowly) from the Great Depression. Would we have gotten into a war a mere 23 years after we lost 125,000 troops with over a quarter million wounded? Would we have mobilized with enough speed to stop the Japanese advance in the Pacific or help Europe at D-Day? I doubt it.
If Hitler had not stalled during Operation Barbarossa (the invasion of Russia) I firmly believe that we all may be speaking German today...
The problem was that Hitler did not trust Stalin (who would?). He hated communists worse than anyone (and that says alot).
The invasion of Russia itself was not what lost Hitler the war. The failed invasion did. If Hitler could have taken Moscow prior to the Winter of 1941, then he would have had a decent chance at eliminating the "two front" scenario that ulitimately lost him the war.
[URL=When did Hitler lose the war ?]When did Hitler lose the war ?[/URL]
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It's obvious that Hitler gambled everything by invading Russia, that attacking Russia and failing to defeat it could only mean that Germany will be defeated.
When the German invasion of Russia began in June 1941, Germany could potentially defeat Russia and win the war. Its initial victories were tremendous. Russian losses in men, equipment, and land, were unbelievably enormous. But Russia is HUGE, with endless resources, its soldiers are tough, and its winter is terrible for anyone not fully equipped for it, and the German military was definitely NOT equipped for the russian winter, and knew it.
So about a month after the victorious invasion began, Hitler and the German high command began to realize that they are simply advancing too slow in their race to defeat Russia before winter, which their grossly over-confident war plan considered a major condition, with no alternative.
The German conclusion in the beginning of September 1941 was that now they must concentrate everything in an all-or-nothing effort to take Moscow before winter. This effort was also initially successful. In October 2nd 1941 Hitler declared the final assault on Moscow. In the 2nd week of October, there was a confident public German announcement that the outcome of the war has been decided and Russia is defeated.
When the German invasion of Russia began in June 1941, Germany could potentially defeat Russia and win the war. Its initial victories were tremendous. Russian losses in men, equipment, and land, were unbelievably enormous. But Russia is HUGE, with endless resources, its soldiers are tough, and its winter is terrible for anyone not fully equipped for it, and the German military was definitely NOT equipped for the russian winter, and knew it.
So about a month after the victorious invasion began, Hitler and the German high command began to realize that they are simply advancing too slow in their race to defeat Russia before winter, which their grossly over-confident war plan considered a major condition, with no alternative.
The German conclusion in the beginning of September 1941 was that now they must concentrate everything in an all-or-nothing effort to take Moscow before winter. This effort was also initially successful. In October 2nd 1941 Hitler declared the final assault on Moscow. In the 2nd week of October, there was a confident public German announcement that the outcome of the war has been decided and Russia is defeated.
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We can ask if Germany lost the war even earlier, for example when it failed to defeat Great Britain with airplanes and submarines, leaving it as an essential future base for massive US forces and a second front. Or when it just began its invasion of Russia. The answer to that is negative. As long as he wasn't at war with Russia, Hitler had options and possibilities, nothing was final yet. When he invaded Russia, he could still do things differently, such as concentrating the effort on Moscow from the beginning, and presenting the war as campaign of liberation from Stalin's brutal regime in order to soften russia's resistance, but Hitler interfered with the military conduct of the invasion from the beginning, and the unprecedented nazi brutality that aimed to decimate and enslave them, left the tough russian people with no other choice but to fight their toughest war, and utilize their endless resources much better than ever, and by doing so Hitler lost his last remaining options and his chance of winning the war.
So in December of 1941, at the gates of Moscow, Hitler's war was lost. It took 3 1/2 more years to end, thanks to the outstanding fighting skill and loyalty of the german soldier, but he could no longer win it.
So in December of 1941, at the gates of Moscow, Hitler's war was lost. It took 3 1/2 more years to end, thanks to the outstanding fighting skill and loyalty of the german soldier, but he could no longer win it.
The German army was the pinnacle of its time. That was not enough for it to win the war, however.
That was scenario #2.
As for Scenario #1:
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1)Hitler would have defeated England and Europe and struck a cease fire with the US and Russia
Tough to say....Hitler was a megalomaniac and probably would have made a deal with one side to backstab the other. Then, when the one side (presumably the Russians) were taken out, he would turn on his "allies".
Scenario #3 may be the most interesting...The US was in a period of isolationism. The war in Europe was not a great concern. The economy was recovering (slowly) from the Great Depression. Would we have gotten into a war a mere 23 years after we lost 125,000 troops with over a quarter million wounded? Would we have mobilized with enough speed to stop the Japanese advance in the Pacific or help Europe at D-Day? I doubt it.
AMLORD, i doubt we'd be speaking Germany but i think the war would have lasted longer & we would have possibly used nukes on German troops
Well, theirs a website where you can debate and discuss such what-if questions, see:
http://www.alternatehistory.com/cgi-bin/di...scus/discus.cgi
Well of Hitler had defeated England he would never have gone to war – at least in the near future – with the United States. With Britain conquered he would have almost certainly defeated the USSR. A more likely scenario is that rather than Hitler “defeating” England, which Julian points out was extremely difficult, England and Germany sign a peace settlement during 1940/41. When Rudolf Hess landed, we may see Churchill overthrown and a Halifax Administration take-over.
Unless Hitler radically changes his ideology, he would have invaded Russia eventually. The Nazis couldn’t tolerate such a powerful threat without trying to destroy it
Without Japan bombing Pearl Harbour, the United States would never have got into the war against Germany. Without US support the British would have signed a peace out of economic desperation by about 1944/45 with Germany while the Soviet Union would have probably been defeated by 1944/45. A Nazi dominated Europe would lead to a quasi-European Community, actually a figleaf for German hegemony over the European continent. Some kind of Cold War would have emerged, based on the Middle East probably between America and Germany after the war.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/cgi-bin/di...scus/discus.cgi
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1)Hitler would have defeated England and Europe and struck a cease fire with the US and Russia
Well of Hitler had defeated England he would never have gone to war – at least in the near future – with the United States. With Britain conquered he would have almost certainly defeated the USSR. A more likely scenario is that rather than Hitler “defeating” England, which Julian points out was extremely difficult, England and Germany sign a peace settlement during 1940/41. When Rudolf Hess landed, we may see Churchill overthrown and a Halifax Administration take-over.
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2) Hitler had never invaded Russia
Unless Hitler radically changes his ideology, he would have invaded Russia eventually. The Nazis couldn’t tolerate such a powerful threat without trying to destroy it
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3) Japan had never bombed Pearl Harbour?
Without Japan bombing Pearl Harbour, the United States would never have got into the war against Germany. Without US support the British would have signed a peace out of economic desperation by about 1944/45 with Germany while the Soviet Union would have probably been defeated by 1944/45. A Nazi dominated Europe would lead to a quasi-European Community, actually a figleaf for German hegemony over the European continent. Some kind of Cold War would have emerged, based on the Middle East probably between America and Germany after the war.
some people seem to be forgeting america didn't start the second front in europe until 1944. and it was the reds that marched on berlin first. stalin fought the nazi's nearly alone and kept them at bay, but only because he signed the soviet-nazi non agression pact which stated as long as neither invaded the other they would stay nuetral. this gave him time to prepare. his scorched earth policy didn't hurt either as the nazi's were notorious for live of wat the conquered so,--what if the soviets and nazis never signed the non-agression pact, and hitler decided to invade in the late thirties, before stalin had a chance to recover from the recent civil warl?--
also, in the 1930s Stalin became increasingly concerned that the Soviet Union would be invaded by Germany. Stalin believed the best way to of dealing with Germany was to form an anti-fascist alliance with countries in the west. Stalin argued that even Adolf Hitler would not start a war against a united Europe. (from http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSnazipact.htm ) again --what if britain and france had formed an alliance with britain and france early on BEFORE hitler got too out of control.?--
also, in the 1930s Stalin became increasingly concerned that the Soviet Union would be invaded by Germany. Stalin believed the best way to of dealing with Germany was to form an anti-fascist alliance with countries in the west. Stalin argued that even Adolf Hitler would not start a war against a united Europe. (from http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSnazipact.htm ) again --what if britain and france had formed an alliance with britain and france early on BEFORE hitler got too out of control.?--
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