Full Version: Who created God?
This is the conversation that took place between me and my friend -
Me : "You see, only God could have created such a perfect universe.
How could it be that everything is accidentally 'exactly right' to sustain
life on earth. Just think, Humans are such perfect machines. Who else
could have designed us?
He, the 'intelligent designer' is what we believe as God , whoever or
whatever it may be".
Friend: "If everything must be 'designed' by someone, then
Who designed God??- A Super-Intelligent Designer??
If God designed this universe, then what was there before he designed it?"
Me: Well,....????
Me : "You see, only God could have created such a perfect universe.
How could it be that everything is accidentally 'exactly right' to sustain
life on earth. Just think, Humans are such perfect machines. Who else
could have designed us?
He, the 'intelligent designer' is what we believe as God , whoever or
whatever it may be".
Friend: "If everything must be 'designed' by someone, then
Who designed God??- A Super-Intelligent Designer??
If God designed this universe, then what was there before he designed it?"
Me: Well,....????
Welcome, Kaushik, to Americas Debate. 
Christians use the story of Moses (the Hebrew raised by an Egyptian princess when Hebrews were slaves in Egypt) to help explain God. After Moses fled Egypt, he lived with Jethro, a Midianite shepherd, and married Zipporah, Jethro's eldest daughter. While tending the flock one day, Moses saw a bush that was burning, but the bush was not consumed by the fire. When he approached it, Moses heard the voice of God, who told him that he was the one who would deliver the Hebrews from Egypt.
Moses asked God what his name was, since the Egyptians would want to know who sent him. God answered, I AM THAT I AM.
Christian dogma maintains that God is eternal, always existing. God is the beginning and the end (for us), and that he formed creation "out of nothing."
To my understanding, there are three main gods in Hinduism. Let's see:
Brahmin, Vishnu and Shiva. Brahmin is the creator, Vishnu is the preserver, and Shiva is the destroyer. Am I right?
Christians use the story of Moses (the Hebrew raised by an Egyptian princess when Hebrews were slaves in Egypt) to help explain God. After Moses fled Egypt, he lived with Jethro, a Midianite shepherd, and married Zipporah, Jethro's eldest daughter. While tending the flock one day, Moses saw a bush that was burning, but the bush was not consumed by the fire. When he approached it, Moses heard the voice of God, who told him that he was the one who would deliver the Hebrews from Egypt.
Moses asked God what his name was, since the Egyptians would want to know who sent him. God answered, I AM THAT I AM.
Christian dogma maintains that God is eternal, always existing. God is the beginning and the end (for us), and that he formed creation "out of nothing."
To my understanding, there are three main gods in Hinduism. Let's see:
Brahmin, Vishnu and Shiva. Brahmin is the creator, Vishnu is the preserver, and Shiva is the destroyer. Am I right?
I cant speak for other religions but that question was dealt with by Christians, definativly, a long time ago. Who invented God? The word, concept, idea, or what? Im assuming the question is one of origins. In logic and metaphysics there is a need for a primary first cause.
"I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways. The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some tilings are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; . . . Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. . . . Hut this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only in as much as they are put in motion by the first mover; . . . Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. . . . There is no case known in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient cause it is not possible to go on to infinity. . . . Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they arc found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently they are possible to be and not to be. . . . Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. . . . If at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence—which is absurd. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.
The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. . . . Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.
The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. . . . Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things arc directed to their end; and this being we call God.
Saint Thomas Aquinas, The "Summa Thcologica" Part I, trans. Fathers of the English Dominican Province (London: Burns Gates and Washbourne, 1920).
"I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways. The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some tilings are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; . . . Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. . . . Hut this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only in as much as they are put in motion by the first mover; . . . Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. . . . There is no case known in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient cause it is not possible to go on to infinity. . . . Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they arc found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently they are possible to be and not to be. . . . Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. . . . If at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence—which is absurd. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.
The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. . . . Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.
The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. . . . Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things arc directed to their end; and this being we call God.
Saint Thomas Aquinas, The "Summa Thcologica" Part I, trans. Fathers of the English Dominican Province (London: Burns Gates and Washbourne, 1920).
Ultimately it's an irrational response to a very logical question. If all things were created and God created all things, then God must also have been created. I've seen so-called "creation scientists" claim that everything must, by definition, have been created, thus making any form of cosmology but creationism wrong, yet they have no problem inventing a special exception for God.
Bunk.
Actually, if you want the real answer to the question, man created God. God is an invention of ancient, primitive man to explain the things in the dark that they didn't comprehend and to allay the fears that they had of the unknown. God is a myth, a fairy tale, but no one wants to hear that.
Bunk.
Actually, if you want the real answer to the question, man created God. God is an invention of ancient, primitive man to explain the things in the dark that they didn't comprehend and to allay the fears that they had of the unknown. God is a myth, a fairy tale, but no one wants to hear that.
QUOTE
The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some tilings are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; . . . Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. . . . Hut this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only in as much as they are put in motion by the first mover; . . . Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
If God requires no first motion to be created then why does anthing else? That is a circular argument. It assumes only God doesn't apply to the rules accoring to what you might know.God can't be proven or disproven; only believed and disbelieved.
The Alpha and Omega. The first and the last. The beginning and the End.
ELOHIM – God Almighty (primary word for God in the Old Testament) identifies Him as Our Creator.
EL ELYON – God Most High…describes God as the sovereign ruler of all the universe.
YHWH – Jehovah (LORD written in capital letters always means Jehovah…Most frequently used name) He is absolutely self-existent, the One who in Himself possesses essential life, permanent existence…I AM WHO I AM).
The Great I AM.
The name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe. –Proverbs 18:10
Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
–Psalm 9:10
http://www.theoquest.com/learning/?fa=curious&art=4
ELOHIM – God Almighty (primary word for God in the Old Testament) identifies Him as Our Creator.
EL ELYON – God Most High…describes God as the sovereign ruler of all the universe.
YHWH – Jehovah (LORD written in capital letters always means Jehovah…Most frequently used name) He is absolutely self-existent, the One who in Himself possesses essential life, permanent existence…I AM WHO I AM).
The Great I AM.
The name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe. –Proverbs 18:10
Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
–Psalm 9:10
QUOTE
The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction.
God can be realized only in the realms of human experience.
God is a universal spirit and the existence and full understanding of God is beyond the realms of man's finite mind.
The infinity of the perfection of God is such that it eternally constitutes him mystery. And the greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the phenomenon of the divine indwelling of mortal minds.
God can be realized only in the realms of human experience.
God is a universal spirit and the existence and full understanding of God is beyond the realms of man's finite mind.
The infinity of the perfection of God is such that it eternally constitutes him mystery. And the greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the phenomenon of the divine indwelling of mortal minds.
http://www.theoquest.com/learning/?fa=curious&art=4
I fail to see the relevance in the names and quotes. Beyond that, the quote offered seems to essentially say, "we can't really prove or make an argument for his existence, so we just say he does and believe it."
I'm in agreement with Rancid Uncle on this one:
Beyond that, if one wishes to argue that God has always existed, they leave open the argument that instead all matter has existed eternally without creation or divine presence. And when looked at in that light, there is actually evidence of matter, giving us a higher probability than the zero probability faced in considering supernatural means.
I'm in agreement with Rancid Uncle on this one:
QUOTE(Rancid Uncle @ Jul 27 2003 @ 03:09 PM)
If God requires no first motion to be created then why does anthing else? That is a circular argument. It assumes only God doesn't apply to the rules accoring to what you might know.
God can't be proven or disproven; only believed and disbelieved.
God can't be proven or disproven; only believed and disbelieved.
Beyond that, if one wishes to argue that God has always existed, they leave open the argument that instead all matter has existed eternally without creation or divine presence. And when looked at in that light, there is actually evidence of matter, giving us a higher probability than the zero probability faced in considering supernatural means.
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I fail to see the relevance in the names and quotes.
The title of this thread is:
QUOTE
Who created God?, Does any relegion answer that!!
In the Judeo-Christian religion, those names, either directly or indirectly given to God and the descriptions answer the question debated.
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Beyond that, the quote offered seems to essentially say, "we can't really prove or make an argument for his existence, so we just say he does and believe it."
It's not saying you can't question the existence of God, it's just giving an explanation as if from a divine point of view. At least that's what I interpret it as.
QUOTE
The Alpha and Omega. The first and the last. The beginning and the End.
ELOHIM – God Almighty (primary word for God in the Old Testament) identifies Him as Our Creator.
EL ELYON – God Most High…describes God as the sovereign ruler of all the universe.
YHWH – Jehovah (LORD written in capital letters always means Jehovah…Most frequently used name) He is absolutely self-existent, the One who in Himself possesses essential life, permanent existence…I AM WHO I AM). The Great I AM.
The name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe. –Proverbs 18:10
Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
–Psalm 9:10
ELOHIM – God Almighty (primary word for God in the Old Testament) identifies Him as Our Creator.
EL ELYON – God Most High…describes God as the sovereign ruler of all the universe.
YHWH – Jehovah (LORD written in capital letters always means Jehovah…Most frequently used name) He is absolutely self-existent, the One who in Himself possesses essential life, permanent existence…I AM WHO I AM). The Great I AM.
The name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe. –Proverbs 18:10
Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
–Psalm 9:10
None of those seem to address origin but rather existence.
There is no need for proof of self-evidenct, apriori, substantive reason. The insistance of a point of orgin for God is a feeble attempt at a paradox where God is just redefine in impossible terms. Its based on presumption and begs the question both God's eternal nature and knowledge in terms of rational systems of thought based on reason. Atheism is the definition of circular reasoning, since you dont have to define something that dont exist they simply dont define non existance. That may be the most rational element of atheistic presumption, just as darkness is the absense of light atheism represents a void. You dont prove that God exists like you prove that ivory soap floats, its apples and oranges.
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None of those seem to address origin but rather existence.
The Alpha and the Omega. The first and the last. The beginning and the end.
Those are God's exact words. He states that there is no origin. That again is the problem with those that have faith and those that don't and when those of faith post their beliefs, because we can't prove it or explain it.
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God is the beginning and the end (for us), and that he formed creation "out of nothing."
When you can believe that God(Who surely must be more complex & conglomerate) can arise out of nothing or ,in other words,accidentally Why don't you believe in accidental creation of everything else?
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Ultimately it's an irrational response to a very logical question. If all things were created and God created all things, then God must also have been created. I've seen so-called "creation scientists" claim that everything must, by definition, have been created, thus making any form of cosmology but creationism wrong, yet they have no problem inventing a special exception for God.
I agree. Pretty logical.
QUOTE
Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
–Psalm 9:10
QUOTE
The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction.
God can be realized only in the realms of human experience.
God is a universal spirit and the existence and full understanding of God is beyond the realms of man's finite mind.
The infinity of the perfection of God is such that it eternally constitutes him mystery. And the greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the phenomenon of the divine indwelling of mortal minds.
Then why do you want to believe in something, that you can't even confirm (With your mortal mind) to be existing? Then you agree that God has deliberately designed human mind in such a way that it must not understand what God really is.
QUOTE(Anarchy Praxis @ Jul 27 2003 @ 04:09 PM)
There is no need for proof of self-evidenct, apriori, substantive reason.
I have yet to see any concepts of God(s) be self-evident rather than the simple creations of people unwilling or unable to seek out explanations for the world around them. There is nothing indicating that matter need have any more a point of origin than the idea of God. And as I already mentioned, evidence of matter allows us to form a probability in that regard. Without any evidence of any gods or the supernatural the probability for them remains at zero.
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I fail to see the relevance in the names and quotes.
I'm Sorry, if i have Confused with the title. Any logical argument is still accepted. I just wanted to know if any religion has already dealt with such questions? Sorry again.
I was referring to the names and quotes provided by Billy Jean, not the ones offered in your opening post, Kaushik. The only way I'm aware of religions dealing with it is what has been presented here: the irrational explanation that god(s) existed without.
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I'm Sorry, if i have Confused with the title. Any logical argument is still accepted. I just wanted to know if any religion has already dealt with such questions? Sorry again.
There is no need for apologies.
By the very definition of your question posed to the board, the answer is revealed. The religion in it's self explains the cultures interpretation of what they think God is.It is the search for the meaning of God and how one interacts with the concept that is more important than the origin of God.
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The only way I'm aware of religions dealing with it is what has been presented here: the irrational explanation that god(s) existed without.
Why do perceive faith as irrational and the concept of blind faith disturbing? Some people do not need evidence of what they believe in. It's the comfort in the void that is filled by that faith that makes religions enduring. The hope in the beyond and the goodness of mankind. It is one of the common elements throughout human history in all cultures, regardless geography, the concept of a god(s). Even IF evolution were true, how do you explain this one common concept? It is not necessary for physical survival. Therefor serves no other purpose that to feed the spirit of man. THAT to me is the only true link between man and God. Both of which, the spirit and God cannot be proven. Though, all here would agree that they have dreamed, how can a dream truly be proven? Brain waives indicated brain activity but cannot animate the substance of the dream. So is the same with the existence of God. No amount of reasoning nor deduction can explain away why an OVERWHELMING majority of mankind believes in the existence of God, however they may interpret IT.
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Jul 27 2003 @ 07:28 PM)
Why do perceive faith as irrational and the concept of blind faith disturbing?
While I may view it as a mistake I do not view blind faith itself as "disturbing." Beyond that, I didn't refer to general faith as irrational, but rather the explanation put forth by theists for the supposed origin of a god. Rancid Uncle detailed the reasons for it being an irrational position.
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Even IF evolution were true, how do you explain this one common concept? It is not necessary for physical survival.
There is an explanation and it actually can be, but discussion of it doesn't belong in this topic.
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but rather the explanation put forth by theists for the supposed origin of a god.
So the doubts and rationalizing away of a theists interpretation of the origin of god by some, dictates that those people are wrong? Let me pose one question. IF there is a god, who are we, here for only a speck in time, to erase that which MANY throughout history have died and devoted their lives too? I find it funny that which has been a constant throughout the ages seems so easily explained away within the last 100 years by secular humanists, atheists and those that wish to do away with that which so many hold dear. There are so many things about the world, universe and all things unexplained that those without faith try to explain and rationalize these things through knowledge, which in fact they ALSO want comfort because they cannot explain it all. The search for truth is inherent in us all, some wish to search for that truth through science and "reason" and others search through the heart and spirit. Who are we to say which path is right and which end is true?
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When you can believe that God(Who surely must be more complex & conglomerate) can arise out of nothing or ,in other words,accidentally Why don't you believe in accidental creation of everything else?
Because I don't believe God's existence was accidental, He is perfect and His design is perfect. That is the basic philosophy of Christianity. It is man that succumbed to temptation for "knowledge", to be as God.
Just as some deny the existence of God, or creationism, I deny the happen chance of the creation or evolution of the universe. Now, I admit, my knowledge of evolution is limited and I'm doing some research, suggested by Abs Like Jesus so that I can have a more education discussion on evolution. But none the less,I stand by the Creation story in Genesis.
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Then why do you want to believe in something, that you can't even confirm (With your mortal mind) to be existing? Then you agree that God has deliberately designed human mind in such a way that it must not understand what God really is.
God didn't design the human mind to not understand what God is, it's that we cannot grasp infinity, the concept of He that was before and will always be. If we were to have that knowledge then we would have no need for God. And it quite simply puts it in the Bible, the God is a jealous God. Why He created us, why we are here is for reasons I cannot explain, nor anyone can. If you believe in the Christian God than those questions are irrelevant. It's the security of salvation that is important and the way inwhich we live our lives.
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Jul 27 2003 @ 09:09 PM)
So the doubts and rationalizing away of a theists interpretation of the origin of god by some, dictates that those people are wrong?
There actually is a difference between being wrong and irrational. What I've said doesn't in any way dictate that you are absolutely wrong, but rather indicates it is less likely than the alternative by having zero probability and contradicting its original assertion.
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Jul 27 2003 @ 09:09 PM)
Let me pose one question. IF there is a god, who are we, here for only a speck in time, to erase that which MANY throughout history have died and devoted their lives too? I find it funny that which has been a constant throughout the ages seems so easily explained away within the last 100 years by secular humanists, atheists and those that wish to do away with that which so many hold dear.
Many people died for their beliefs by the hands of those who carried yours, Billy Jean. You act as though religious belief or any belief in the divine has been the only constant throughout the ages. Humanists and atheists have been right there for the ride as well. Beyond that, there have been countless ideas held dear by many which over time have been explained away. Cherishing a belief does not make it immune to the light of reason and revelation if it is somehow faulty.
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Jul 27 2003 @ 09:09 PM)
The search for truth is inherent in us all, some wish to search for that truth through science and "reason" and others search through the heart and spirit. Who are we to say which path is right and which end is true?
Science and reason aren't the dogmatic tools that faith is. The heart and spirit, already abstract in themselves, dabble only in the abstract making them somewhat unreliable if we are pursuing what can be held true or not.
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Science and reason aren't the dogmatic tools that faith is.
That is true. But some people do hold them in higher regard than faith.
www.dictionary.com
QUOTE
Dogma- An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.
Dogmatic- Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles.
Faith- Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Science- The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Dogmatic- Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles.
Faith- Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Science- The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
You can explain things away all you want, but in all honesty, you can not explain away God through science, He rests in the world of faith. By the very definition of what science is, some studies are classified as experimental.
I personally hold more stock in a belief that is over 4,000 years old and is as relevant today as it was in the days of Moses, before I would put
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The heart and spirit,
no matter QUOTE
how abstract in themselves
, in the hands of science.
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Jul 28 2003 @ 06:34 AM)
You can explain things away all you want, but in all honesty, you can not explain away God through science, He rests in the world of faith.
The same way science may not definitively explain away your God, science can not for your faith definitively explain away any of the other thousands of gods worshipped before, during and after the rise of your chosen religion. Not to be the only similarity, neither yours or those several thousand other gods have a rational explanation for their origin which absolutely necessitates them.
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The same way science may not definitively explain away your God, science can not for your faith definitively explain away any of the other thousands of gods worshipped before, during and after the rise of your chosen religion. Not to be the only similarity, neither yours or those several thousand other gods have a rational explanation for their origin which absolutely necessitates them.
You're absolutely right. There is no rational explanation for man's eternal search, labeling and questioning of God or gods. THAT in it's self IS the enigma!
Who created God? the answer is simple, we created God. During the begining of mankind, when the inteligence of the homo sapiens started to grow, his limited knowledge of the world around him couldn't explain what he was experienced, and so, because one of the genius of man being to look for answers to what he can't explain, he started to, and the only explanation that came to him is that there must be a creator of all what he sees, of the beauty of the world, there are proofs of this development in all the drawings and paintings that they made, for exemple in the lascau cave, in parallel with him realising his mortality (the nehanderthal man did the same reasoning) and not understanding why we have to die.
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Jul 28 2003 @ 11:21 AM)
You're absolutely right. There is no rational explanation for man's eternal search, labeling and questioning of God or gods. THAT in it's self IS the enigma!
Actually there is a pretty rational explanation that I actually just wasted a PM on, since I didn't see you post this before it sent...
I'll work off your post and the subsequent post of boulou38 in regards to how and why humans might have rationally come about labeling and questioning about god(s), goddess(es) and spirits.QUOTE
rationality.net
All life on earth is defined by the ability to replicate under the auspices of the law of evolution. The driving force for this basic mechanism of life is not a search for a questionable meaning in life, but life is the product of the most basic of all innate drives: The survival instinct - which, in turn, is rooted in the pleasure/pain principle. This concept can be stated briefly as: Every living organism, including every human being, always acts in what it considers to be in its best self-interest: To avoid pain and to enhance pleasure. Only organisms that perceive a threat to its existence as an unpleasant perception, a perception of pain, can survive and perpetuate this ability.
...In the constant battle for survival, all living organisms are continuously engaged in a struggle for limited resources. Lower life forms, such as bacteria or earthworms, have little control over their inherently hostile environment. Only man has evolved rational thought processes. Among animals, only man can utilize his rational mind to purposefully direct his activities in order to achieve a higher degree of security in an inherently insecure world. In an effort to enhance his ability to cope with his environment by providing a security umbrella for his future activities, only man has developed the mental faculties to pose the question: Why am I doing what I am doing? If there is a purpose to life, how can I comply with it or can I enhance it? Conversely, if there is no purpose to my life, if life is totally futile, if human beings wander around aimlessly and without a preordained meaning or purpose, why not succumb to the adversities of life and resolve all potential future conflicts by committing suicide? As Hamlet said: "To be or not to be, that is the question..."
...The answer is very simple: Human beings have been structured genetically by evolution so that they are incapable of readily committing suicide - our extremely powerful and pervasive survival instinct prevents suicide and makes self-destruction almost impossible - unless we are mentally severely ill. This deeply imbedded, genetic mechanism makes it possible for the human race, or any other living organism, to exist. Without this all-powerful survival instinct, which forces us to perpetuate our genetic material, the human race would never have evolved and human beings would not now exist on earth.
During the evolution of man, his view of the world around him was severely restricted by his lack of factual knowledge of objective reality. In order to deal effectively with events in our life we need to have accurate knowledge of Objective Reality: Of the way things really are and not what they appear to be. In his quest to find a purpose in life which might help him cope with the adversities of life, but lacking factual knowledge, man has resorted to inventing supernatural beings, such as gods or a god or other mystical forces, to whom he could appeal by prayer, sacrifices or similar devotions for his survival and security. Man thus invented the fiction that he was subject to the control of and in the service of these superior beings: That it is his purpose in life to placate and to please the gods by subjugating himself to these superior, all-powerful beings and thus be assured of their goodwill and protection.
All life on earth is defined by the ability to replicate under the auspices of the law of evolution. The driving force for this basic mechanism of life is not a search for a questionable meaning in life, but life is the product of the most basic of all innate drives: The survival instinct - which, in turn, is rooted in the pleasure/pain principle. This concept can be stated briefly as: Every living organism, including every human being, always acts in what it considers to be in its best self-interest: To avoid pain and to enhance pleasure. Only organisms that perceive a threat to its existence as an unpleasant perception, a perception of pain, can survive and perpetuate this ability.
...In the constant battle for survival, all living organisms are continuously engaged in a struggle for limited resources. Lower life forms, such as bacteria or earthworms, have little control over their inherently hostile environment. Only man has evolved rational thought processes. Among animals, only man can utilize his rational mind to purposefully direct his activities in order to achieve a higher degree of security in an inherently insecure world. In an effort to enhance his ability to cope with his environment by providing a security umbrella for his future activities, only man has developed the mental faculties to pose the question: Why am I doing what I am doing? If there is a purpose to life, how can I comply with it or can I enhance it? Conversely, if there is no purpose to my life, if life is totally futile, if human beings wander around aimlessly and without a preordained meaning or purpose, why not succumb to the adversities of life and resolve all potential future conflicts by committing suicide? As Hamlet said: "To be or not to be, that is the question..."
...The answer is very simple: Human beings have been structured genetically by evolution so that they are incapable of readily committing suicide - our extremely powerful and pervasive survival instinct prevents suicide and makes self-destruction almost impossible - unless we are mentally severely ill. This deeply imbedded, genetic mechanism makes it possible for the human race, or any other living organism, to exist. Without this all-powerful survival instinct, which forces us to perpetuate our genetic material, the human race would never have evolved and human beings would not now exist on earth.
During the evolution of man, his view of the world around him was severely restricted by his lack of factual knowledge of objective reality. In order to deal effectively with events in our life we need to have accurate knowledge of Objective Reality: Of the way things really are and not what they appear to be. In his quest to find a purpose in life which might help him cope with the adversities of life, but lacking factual knowledge, man has resorted to inventing supernatural beings, such as gods or a god or other mystical forces, to whom he could appeal by prayer, sacrifices or similar devotions for his survival and security. Man thus invented the fiction that he was subject to the control of and in the service of these superior beings: That it is his purpose in life to placate and to please the gods by subjugating himself to these superior, all-powerful beings and thus be assured of their goodwill and protection.
QUOTE
All life on earth is defined by the ability to replicate under the auspices of the law of evolution. The driving force for this basic mechanism of life is not
a search for a questionable meaning in life, but life is the product of the most basic of all innate drives: The survival instinct - which, in turn, is rooted in
the pleasure/pain principle. This concept can be stated briefly as: Every living organism, including every human being, always acts in what it considers
to be in its best self-interest: To avoid pain and to enhance pleasure. Only organisms that perceive a threat to its existence as an unpleasant
perception, a perception of pain, can survive and perpetuate this ability.
...In the constant battle for survival, all living organisms are continuously engaged in a struggle for limited resources. Lower life forms, such as bacteria
or earthworms, have little control over their inherently hostile environment. Only man has evolved rational thought processes. Among animals, only
man can utilize his rational mind to purposefully direct his activities in order to achieve a higher degree of security in an inherently insecure world. In
an effort to enhance his ability to cope with his environment by providing a security umbrella for his future activities, only man has developed the
mental faculties to pose the question: Why am I doing what I am doing? If there is a purpose to life, how can I comply with it or can I enhance it?
Conversely, if there is no purpose to my life, if life is totally futile, if human beings wander around aimlessly and without a preordained meaning or
purpose, why not succumb to the adversities of life and resolve all potential future conflicts by committing suicide? As Hamlet said: "To be or not to be,
that is the question..."
...The answer is very simple: Human beings have been structured genetically by evolution so that they are incapable of readily committing suicide -
our extremely powerful and pervasive survival instinct prevents suicide and makes self-destruction almost impossible - unless we are mentally severely
ill. This deeply imbedded, genetic mechanism makes it possible for the human race, or any other living organism, to exist. Without this all-powerful
survival instinct, which forces us to perpetuate our genetic material, the human race would never have evolved and human beings would not now exist
on earth.
During the evolution of man, his view of the world around him was severely restricted by his lack of factual knowledge of objective reality. In order to
deal effectively with events in our life we need to have accurate knowledge of Objective Reality: Of the way things really are and not what they appear
to be. In his quest to find a purpose in life which might help him cope with the adversities of life, but lacking factual knowledge, man has resorted to
inventing supernatural beings, such as gods or a god or other mystical forces, to whom he could appeal by prayer, sacrifices or similar devotions for his
survival and security. Man thus invented the fiction that he was subject to the control of and in the service of these superior beings: That it is his
purpose in life to placate and to please the gods by subjugating himself to these superior, all-powerful beings and thus be assured of their goodwill and
protection.
I think I couldn't have explained it more clearly, there is nothing to add
"religion is the opium of the people" Karl Marx
I'm sorry, I find that explanation very sad and devoid of what a human really is. I look into the face of every human being and I see the face of God. The explanation you propose makes sense and explains away divinity quite well from that point of view. Do you really believe that? If so, what gives you purpose in your life to succeed or even be a decent human being? I'm not being disrespectful. Is it the repercussions of the law? Is the intimidation of your fellow human being really enough to keep us in line?
I see a world with out God or gods empty and nothing more than a hollow struggle to exist and to die. How very sad if that were the case.
I see a world with out God or gods empty and nothing more than a hollow struggle to exist and to die. How very sad if that were the case.
Faith, or the lack of, cannot be proven or dis-proven by any link,book, or reference we can find anywhere. I still do not understand why some people continue to place into question an individuals faith(granted that it is sane, and not the faith that their hamster is the supreme being).
Faith is very strong indeed. I myself am almost to the point of being atheist, but there is a part of me that does believe there is something, something that started this all.
But why do we question people's faith in a god? Why do we post "links" to try and explain away god? To those truly faithful, don't you realize how hurtful this can be to that person?
I know this strays a tad off topic.. But I am sure there are those of you who have lost a loved one close to them, and I am sure you loved them deeply. Well how about this.... Prove it. (*Hopes point is taken*)
PS. Yes. I am taking up for Billy Jean, as I have seen her challenged on her faith in God many times, and frankly I am quite tired of it.
Faith is very strong indeed. I myself am almost to the point of being atheist, but there is a part of me that does believe there is something, something that started this all.
But why do we question people's faith in a god? Why do we post "links" to try and explain away god? To those truly faithful, don't you realize how hurtful this can be to that person?
I know this strays a tad off topic.. But I am sure there are those of you who have lost a loved one close to them, and I am sure you loved them deeply. Well how about this.... Prove it. (*Hopes point is taken*)
PS. Yes. I am taking up for Billy Jean, as I have seen her challenged on her faith in God many times, and frankly I am quite tired of it.
You didn't ask for a cheerful explanation full of meaning, Billy Jean. Only a rational one.
I have an answer for your questions, but this isn't the appropriate topic to get in depth with them lest we lose sight of "God's origin" as the intent of this debate.
Edited to add:
So far I've done it almost solely because Billy Jean or somebody else has asked me to. I'm not attempting to challenge her beliefs for kicks or anything
I have an answer for your questions, but this isn't the appropriate topic to get in depth with them lest we lose sight of "God's origin" as the intent of this debate.
Edited to add:
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Jul 28 2003 @ 11:56 AM)
But why do we question people's faith in a god? Why do we post "links" to try and explain away god? To those truly faithful, don't you realize how hurtful this can be to that person?
So far I've done it almost solely because Billy Jean or somebody else has asked me to. I'm not attempting to challenge her beliefs for kicks or anything
QUOTE
I'm sorry, I find that explanation very sad and devoid of what a human really is. I look into the face of every human being and I see the
face of God. The explanation you propose makes sense and explains away divinity quite well from that point of view. Do you really
believe that? If so, what gives you purpose in your life to succeed or even be a decent human being? I'm not being disrespectful. Is it
the repercussions of the law? Is the intimidation of your fellow human being really enough to keep us in line?
I see a world with out God or gods empty and nothing more than a hollow struggle to exist and to die. How very sad if that were the
case.
face of God. The explanation you propose makes sense and explains away divinity quite well from that point of view. Do you really
believe that? If so, what gives you purpose in your life to succeed or even be a decent human being? I'm not being disrespectful. Is it
the repercussions of the law? Is the intimidation of your fellow human being really enough to keep us in line?
I see a world with out God or gods empty and nothing more than a hollow struggle to exist and to die. How very sad if that were the
case.
What are human beings after all? just a super intelligent animal that had nothing else that this intelligence to survive.
And life worth fighting for even without a supposibly god that looks behind us. Since the begining of humanity, religion and faith were used to control the masses, saying them what is good and what is not, denying them their freedom to do what they want, justifying their slaves like life by an hypothetical after life that many of the sermonizers didn't even believe in. What guides us is humanism, the faith in man, it's the only one worth fighting for, improving the life of everyone, because we have only one life and we have to enjoy it.
I don't want to hurt the beliefs of anyone, i am just exposing mine (as a lot pf people did), or maybe it would be more accurate to talk about my absence of beliefs
I find the debate of the divine comes down to this. Either you believe that there is something bigger out there than us or you don't. If you do and how you label that is another subject. If you don't believe than no amount of discussion can persuade you. The divine reveals it's self when you least expect it, when that happens, how you interpret it or if you wish to acknowledge it is up to you. 
boulou38, and anyone else yet unfamiliar with the finer aspects of posting here. Please refrain from double posting. If you are the last person to have posted in a debate but wish to add or change something, you have a 12 hour window to edit your post. If you read the post to edit you will notice at the top right corner a Blue option button allowing you to edit. Thanks!
I usually avoid topics such as this one, because it is impossible (to my mind) to prove things that are a matter of faith. St. Paul wrote, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
What I hold in my mind and psyche to be true I cannot adequately impart to someone else, and yet that does not invalidate it.
What you believe deep down inside is what directs your thoughts and actions. To be without a positive motivation of some sort is to be in despair.
In this context, I find comfort in believing that God is eternal. He's always been there, seen (or done) that, and understands what I can't possibly begin to comprehend. When I add to that the belief that God cares about us, it gives me hope.
What I hold in my mind and psyche to be true I cannot adequately impart to someone else, and yet that does not invalidate it.
What you believe deep down inside is what directs your thoughts and actions. To be without a positive motivation of some sort is to be in despair.
In this context, I find comfort in believing that God is eternal. He's always been there, seen (or done) that, and understands what I can't possibly begin to comprehend. When I add to that the belief that God cares about us, it gives me hope.
I think that believing in a power that in a way control our life, like believing in fate, is the thing that is dispairing, because it implies that we don't have the control of our lives, that we are not free, as I believe every human being is.
I really think that a secular world would be a better one, elimating all the antagonism between the religions, putting an end to anti-semitisim, to islamism, etc....
But this debate is endless, because you are not going to change your point of view, and me neither.
I really think that a secular world would be a better one, elimating all the antagonism between the religions, putting an end to anti-semitisim, to islamism, etc....
But this debate is endless, because you are not going to change your point of view, and me neither.
QUOTE
I think that believing in a power that in a way control our life, like believing in fate, is the thing that is dispairing, because it implies that we don't have the control of our lives, that we are not free, as I believe every human being is.
I really think that a secular world would be a better one, elimating all the antagonism between the religions, putting an end to anti-semitisim, to islamism, etc....
I really think that a secular world would be a better one, elimating all the antagonism between the religions, putting an end to anti-semitisim, to islamism, etc....
My belief is that God DOESN'T control our lives. It's FREEWILL that He gave us. There is no such thing as fate. You make your own destiny. God is a comforter and wants our lives to be rich and wonderful. The guidelines he laid down in the 10 commandments are their to give us a moral compass. NONE of those laws restrict your life but rather enhance it. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world but rather to bring life and life more abundantly. Love is the greatest commandment. How is that despairing?
We're venturing off topic.
- Who created God?
QUOTE(Kaushik @ Jul 27 2003, 12:38 PM)
This is the conversation that took place between me and my friend -
Me : "You see, only God could have created such a perfect universe.
How could it be that everything is accidentally 'exactly right' to sustain
life on earth. Just think, Humans are such perfect machines. Who else
could have designed us?
He, the 'intelligent designer' is what we believe as God , whoever or
whatever it may be".
Friend: "If everything must be 'designed' by someone, then
Who designed God??- A Super-Intelligent Designer??
If God designed this universe, then what was there before he designed it?"
Me: Well,....????
Me : "You see, only God could have created such a perfect universe.
How could it be that everything is accidentally 'exactly right' to sustain
life on earth. Just think, Humans are such perfect machines. Who else
could have designed us?
He, the 'intelligent designer' is what we believe as God , whoever or
whatever it may be".
Friend: "If everything must be 'designed' by someone, then
Who designed God??- A Super-Intelligent Designer??
If God designed this universe, then what was there before he designed it?"
Me: Well,....????
Eh. If you wanted to prove him wrong on something, just ask him when dinosaurs existed according to the bible. If he says that dinosaurs and humans existed together at one point, he's wrong. He cant say that they existed before humans, because humans were within the first seven days of the creation of the earth.
Or...better. Talk about cave paintings. Those (illiterate) cavemen left no written word etc.
Or... Ignore the issue entirely. Thats always the safest way!
Most religions, especially Jews and Christains, believe in one God, but I would qualify that it probably means one God for this earth.
There may well be other gods, such that the God of this planet has a father, who is a God in his own right, but for some other planet.
Jesus being the son of our one God acts in his behalf, and could well be the God of the Old Testament, or simply the son of our one God, depends on your views.
There are many theories, but no verifiable proof, so all we can do is speculate.
Hardly matters, tho, as we can't know anything in this area until it is revealed to us.
Hopefully, in the hereafter, we will get some answers.
There may well be other gods, such that the God of this planet has a father, who is a God in his own right, but for some other planet.
Jesus being the son of our one God acts in his behalf, and could well be the God of the Old Testament, or simply the son of our one God, depends on your views.
There are many theories, but no verifiable proof, so all we can do is speculate.
Hardly matters, tho, as we can't know anything in this area until it is revealed to us.
Hopefully, in the hereafter, we will get some answers.
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Jul 27 2003, 11:28 PM)
Why do perceive faith as irrational and the concept of blind faith disturbing? Some people do not need evidence of what they believe in. It's the comfort in the void that is filled by that faith that makes religions enduring. The hope in the beyond and the goodness of mankind. It is one of the common elements throughout human history in all cultures, regardless geography, the concept of a god(s).
That's true. It isn't the TRUTH of the religion that seems to matter, it's how the religion makes you feel. If it provides comfort, that's wonderful. If people just realized and lived by that, the world would be a much better place to live. Unfortunately, you get the Catholics fighting the Protestants, the Christians fighting the Muslims, all over not only which set of myths you believe, but which VERSION of those myths and it all falls apart. There's a whole lot of Bible-waving going on that has nothing to do with comfort or the goodness of mankind.
And while I don't disagree that you don't need evidence to believe something, believing in the face of overwhelming evidence that your beliefs are wrong is something else entirely. Man can never prove that God, as a concept, is real or not real. God is conveniently beyond man's ability to detect and so any claims about the existence of God fall into the same category as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Some people believe, some don't. But once you start demanding that others believe, once you say that your sectarian beliefs should be put into public schools, public tax money should be spent to support your religious beliefs or that politicians should vote to support your religion over others, that's where people have a right to ask for you to defend your beliefs. And if you can't... then you have no right to ask for special treatment as Christianity and many outspoken Christians certainly do.
QUOTE
Even IF evolution were true, how do you explain this one common concept? It is not necessary for physical survival.
To look beyond oneself and wonder about the nature of the universe seems to be univeral among intelligent humans. However, just because ancient man created gods to explain the things that they didn't understand, modern humanity knows the answers to many of the things that primitive people didn't. We no longer need to believe that deities make the sun rise and set. We don't need to pray for the crops to grow or the hunt to be bountiful. And while most people will probably always fear death because it represents the ultimate unknown, we don't need to invent fanciful places for non-existent souls to flap angel wings and strum on harps forever. When you die, you die. Your body decomposes. It returns to the universe that gave it birth. Your molecules become the next generation of life. While your individuality may cease with your brain activity, you are a part of the great circle of life and a part of the universe at large. It's unfortuate that more people can't simply accept reality as it comes rather than inventing mythologies.
I am responding only to the topic of the thread in direct answer to the question, I have not read any of the replies so I do not know what has been said so if I am repeating someone else this is why.
God is GOD. So simple yet so profound. Unless you are saved you will never understand this in its full force.
God has no beginning and no end, without creation there was no time, space or anything except God. God was all, the beginning and the End, infinite and without boundaries. And when God said 'Let there be light' in that instant were the universal laws of physics set in place but then they where perfect. In Six Days God Created the cosmos and as I have mentioned before six days is such an expression of the beauty of our God. Six days is long enough to show that he cares so much about his creation but short enough to show his amazing power and love.
Unless you can truelly say you understand infinity and know when you talk about God that he is beyond all measure, an infinite a triune three in one then go away and read the Bible, Gods all revealing word, and then come back and debate with me the wonders of our lord.
The Christian God, Three in one, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Man was made in his image Body, Mind and Soul.
The substance of the Son, The wisdom of the Father, The essence of Our God.
God was Not Created, he has always been.
Here is an example God gave us to explain it. Here it comes, are you ready, do you know what it is, it is a Circle. You put your finger anywhere along the circumference of a circle and go round and round and round. The circle has no beginning and no end, it is the same for ever and for ever.
God IS GOD. Talk not of what God is but only what he says for even in heaven I doubt we shall truelly understand how great our God is.
God is GOD. So simple yet so profound. Unless you are saved you will never understand this in its full force.
God has no beginning and no end, without creation there was no time, space or anything except God. God was all, the beginning and the End, infinite and without boundaries. And when God said 'Let there be light' in that instant were the universal laws of physics set in place but then they where perfect. In Six Days God Created the cosmos and as I have mentioned before six days is such an expression of the beauty of our God. Six days is long enough to show that he cares so much about his creation but short enough to show his amazing power and love.
Unless you can truelly say you understand infinity and know when you talk about God that he is beyond all measure, an infinite a triune three in one then go away and read the Bible, Gods all revealing word, and then come back and debate with me the wonders of our lord.
The Christian God, Three in one, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Man was made in his image Body, Mind and Soul.
The substance of the Son, The wisdom of the Father, The essence of Our God.
God was Not Created, he has always been.
Here is an example God gave us to explain it. Here it comes, are you ready, do you know what it is, it is a Circle. You put your finger anywhere along the circumference of a circle and go round and round and round. The circle has no beginning and no end, it is the same for ever and for ever.
God IS GOD. Talk not of what God is but only what he says for even in heaven I doubt we shall truelly understand how great our God is.
QUOTE(Zebbeddee @ Aug 4 2003, 03:20 PM)
God is GOD. So simple yet so profound. Unless you are saved you will never understand this in its full force.
God has no beginning and no end, without creation there was no time, space or anything except God. God was all, the beginning and the End, infinite and without boundaries. And when God said 'Let there be light' in that instant were the universal laws of physics set in place but then they where perfect. In Six Days God Created the cosmos and as I have mentioned before six days is such an expression of the beauty of our God. Six days is long enough to show that he cares so much about his creation but short enough to show his amazing power and love.
Unless you can truelly say you understand infinity and know when you talk about God that he is beyond all measure, an infinite a triune three in one then go away and read the Bible, Gods all revealing word, and then come back and debate with me the wonders of our lord.
God has no beginning and no end, without creation there was no time, space or anything except God. God was all, the beginning and the End, infinite and without boundaries. And when God said 'Let there be light' in that instant were the universal laws of physics set in place but then they where perfect. In Six Days God Created the cosmos and as I have mentioned before six days is such an expression of the beauty of our God. Six days is long enough to show that he cares so much about his creation but short enough to show his amazing power and love.
Unless you can truelly say you understand infinity and know when you talk about God that he is beyond all measure, an infinite a triune three in one then go away and read the Bible, Gods all revealing word, and then come back and debate with me the wonders of our lord.
That's all well and good as a matter of faith, but you can't back any of that up with evidence. If that's what you want to believe, so be it. Many of us expect good, solid objective evidence for the existence of God, and lacking that, really aren't interested.
Man Has the Capacity for faith and God gave man Proof enough in his creation and the Bible if you are willing to see it. If you were given absolute proof you should turn your back in all free will from God and for that he would have to eternally punish. Absolute proof is not given because God is wise. Before Man fell in the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve walked with God.
Because they where made perfect this was possible but now that man is filthy in the sight of God he can no longer walk with man on earth because he is holy and pure. It is said that Proof denies faith but I would say Absolute Proof Denies Faith for if you are given everything you have nothing to build a faith on. So God keeps as much as he can from us so that we have the choice, either for him or against him, for he gave us free will and cannot break it as it is the covenant he made with man at creation when he made man in the image of God. Would you like you free will taken from you and this instant to be taken in the wrath of God and cast into eternal punishment. I think not. God IS GOD, come ye unto christ and this shall ye truelly understand.
Only God can do a work of grace in hearts and bring you to your knees before the Lord of the universe, It is my place only to do the work of witness for all that I am worth in love and admonishen of my lord jesus christ who died that the world might have light.
Because they where made perfect this was possible but now that man is filthy in the sight of God he can no longer walk with man on earth because he is holy and pure. It is said that Proof denies faith but I would say Absolute Proof Denies Faith for if you are given everything you have nothing to build a faith on. So God keeps as much as he can from us so that we have the choice, either for him or against him, for he gave us free will and cannot break it as it is the covenant he made with man at creation when he made man in the image of God. Would you like you free will taken from you and this instant to be taken in the wrath of God and cast into eternal punishment. I think not. God IS GOD, come ye unto christ and this shall ye truelly understand.
Only God can do a work of grace in hearts and bring you to your knees before the Lord of the universe, It is my place only to do the work of witness for all that I am worth in love and admonishen of my lord jesus christ who died that the world might have light.
QUOTE(Zebbeddee @ Aug 4 2003, 04:17 PM)
Man Has the Capacity for faith and God gave man Proof enough in his creation and the Bible if you are willing to see it. If you were given absolute proof you should turn your back in all free will from God and for that he would have to eternally punish. Absolute proof is not given because God is wise. Before Man fell in the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve walked with God.
It's amazing how many Christians claim there is proof, yet when called on that claim, have absolutely none to offer. So why don't you be the first to provide even a shred of this so-called proof in creation or the Bible?
And, just for the record, any God who would punish me eternally for using the free will and mind that he supposedly gave me is a sadistic bastard that NO ONE should worship.
QUOTE(Cephus @ Aug 4 2003, 11:20 AM)
It's amazing how many Christians claim there is proof, yet when called on that claim, have absolutely none to offer. So why don't you be the first to provide even a shred of this so-called proof in creation or the Bible?
Granted you can't prove there is a God. But can YOU prove there is no God?
I believe Man made God, outta ignorance and fear
If God made man, then why the hell would he put us here?
I thought he's supposed to be the all loving
The same God who let Hitler put the Jews in the oven?-- dead prez, propaganda.
I have to agree with this. I believe that there is a LOT in the universe that we don't know, but can't believe in a deity that punishes me for using my "free will" (if I get punished for not doing as I'm "supposed" to do, do I really have free will?) and can't believe in a "god" that let's a couple million of his "chosen" people to be slaughtered when he is supposed to be "all loving" (I am a pantheist and do believe in an energy force that affects things, but in subtle, un-noticable ways)
(and yes I qeustion the numbers killed in the "holocaust" Institute for Historical Review: What is 'Holocaust Denial'? )
If God made man, then why the hell would he put us here?
I thought he's supposed to be the all loving
The same God who let Hitler put the Jews in the oven?-- dead prez, propaganda.
I have to agree with this. I believe that there is a LOT in the universe that we don't know, but can't believe in a deity that punishes me for using my "free will" (if I get punished for not doing as I'm "supposed" to do, do I really have free will?) and can't believe in a "god" that let's a couple million of his "chosen" people to be slaughtered when he is supposed to be "all loving" (I am a pantheist and do believe in an energy force that affects things, but in subtle, un-noticable ways)
(and yes I qeustion the numbers killed in the "holocaust" Institute for Historical Review: What is 'Holocaust Denial'? )
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Aug 4 2003, 04:33 PM)
QUOTE(Cephus @ Aug 4 2003, 11:20 AM)
It's amazing how many Christians claim there is proof, yet when called on that claim, have absolutely none to offer. So why don't you be the first to provide even a shred of this so-called proof in creation or the Bible?
Granted you can't prove there is a God. But can YOU prove there is no God?
I don't have to, the burden of proof rests with the positive claimant. However, in every case where we can look at the Bible scientifically, where the claims that God did something are open to objective evaluation, we find that what is claimed simply never happened. There was no worldwide flood, as the Bible claims. There was no special creation, as the Bible claims. In fact, if we just look at the Bible, we find that virtually every supernatural aspect was simply copied from other pre-existing mythologies by the Hebrews. The creation story wasn't original. The flood story wasn't original. The virgin birth wasn't original. The crucifiction wasn't original. The resurrection wasn't original. None of the miracles were original. The Hebrews simply copied stories from the surrounding cultures, added their own spin and today, people are declaring that it's true.
QUOTE(Cephus @ Aug 4 2003, 09:46 AM)
There was no worldwide flood, as the Bible claims.
if there were no worldwide flood, why do the chippewa have a story about it? what of the abrigonal story of a massive flood? throughout most of europe there are stories of mass floods, as well as through out africa and the americas. crucifixtion has also been documented to have happened. (maybe not Jesus' but others crucified by the romans)
you need to realize the bible is like a written game of "telephone" I come up with an idea, or teach something to you, then you take it and repeat it, adding a touch of your own to it, the person you told changes it a tiny bit, and so on for thousands of years, until it is distorted beyond recognition. (this is why I never believe what the bible says jesus "said". some of his teachings were not written down until at least 50, and most 150-250, years after he died!)
while the reason(s) for the events you described are bogus(god), many ACTUALLY happened, much of the old testament HAS in fact been backed up with archealogical research and findings. while not supernatural, some of it can (to a point) be backed up with tangible evidence (except, of course, god)
I once had an atheist say to me that believing in God is a complete cop-out and that it has held back the advance of science for centuries. I would like to put this straight, Atheism is a cop-out, rejecting your maker thinking science has the answers and saying that there are no consequences that a person is not responsible for his actions (nothing but chemicals). Atheism denies your greater purpose, to worship God.
Pantheism is better than atheism but will not get you anywhere. It does away with accountability but not God so in this it is a dangerous view to take.
Atheism and evolution generally go hand in hand, so with no God comes life that creates a God because it doesn't want to feel so alone.
I have an explanation for everything of this world because my creator made everything that we see, hear, touch, smell and taste but as for things of God I can only point you to his creation to study it in a new and better light.
But as for putting right the original statement Evolution has held back genetics and biology, the one area everyone says it is imperative to to teach evolution along side. Under the assumption that things get left behind from millions of years of evolutionary changes people did not bother to study them. As a man of God I would say that the further science goes the more it shall prove the wonders of God as there is now just one organ and 60% of our genetics that we are not sure of the purpose as opposed to 15-20 organs and 92% and most of the research is done by christian biologists who do not believe evolution.
In answer to the topic, simply, and in one sentence:
In the beginning was God
I have a beginning, the whole universe has a beginning but God has no beginning. He has been always and forever will be.
All things where created by God and only God can create.
I read an article saying that evidence for evolution is also evidence for creation but I wish to take that further. Your evidence is ours and our evidence is ours. Let us think objectively shall we since you seem so keen to do so. The evidence for a flood is unmistakable, it is written in many literary works of ancient culture that a monumental flood took place but the reasons for it where different.
The bible says God brought the flood because man was evil in his sight and, for example, the babylonians say that it was because man was to noisy but the archeological evidence for a flood is huge. The flood must be held as fact by a creationist to show how the apparent age of the planet is wrong because in such a monumental event stalagmites and stalactites would form very fast, chasms would be hewn by water in a very short time etc. The parting of the continents I believe happened at the time of the flood and when all the animals came out of the ark they went to each land mass and populated the bits that best suited them and built the ecosystems we know today.
The Creation is so amazing and I would say if you want evidence of a creator look at the marvels of creation for God has given us two books, the bible and creation and both show his wonders. I have seen it calculated that if you allowed the whole of the earths surface, land and sea, to be perfect for the manufacture of life and allowing an outside source e.g. a meteor strike to bring life to earth, the probability of producing the simplest bacteria imaginable that could survive to evolve into the next stage is 1 in 10^40000 (1/ (1 with 40000 following zero's). This is what you put your faith in. hears another mathematical probability of assurance for you evolutionists. The rate at which bacteria mustate is quite slow but if assuming that now they are higher forms of life than they were "millions of years ago" then genetic mutations would happen far more often, right, so you do the calculation with an ameoba of the simplest possible that has errors and for one of these errors to form a higher life form. Heres the mass of bacteria you would need, If the earth was 1000'000'000'000 times its diameter this would be the mass of bacteria. That's 1*10^50 bacteria for a guarateed new life count of one I say let mathematics and creation speak and look objectively at the world you live in. For the features of design are unmistakable for you where made by a great God who sits in heaven in Glory waiting to receive you.
Pantheism is better than atheism but will not get you anywhere. It does away with accountability but not God so in this it is a dangerous view to take.
Atheism and evolution generally go hand in hand, so with no God comes life that creates a God because it doesn't want to feel so alone.
I have an explanation for everything of this world because my creator made everything that we see, hear, touch, smell and taste but as for things of God I can only point you to his creation to study it in a new and better light.
But as for putting right the original statement Evolution has held back genetics and biology, the one area everyone says it is imperative to to teach evolution along side. Under the assumption that things get left behind from millions of years of evolutionary changes people did not bother to study them. As a man of God I would say that the further science goes the more it shall prove the wonders of God as there is now just one organ and 60% of our genetics that we are not sure of the purpose as opposed to 15-20 organs and 92% and most of the research is done by christian biologists who do not believe evolution.
In answer to the topic, simply, and in one sentence:
In the beginning was God
I have a beginning, the whole universe has a beginning but God has no beginning. He has been always and forever will be.
All things where created by God and only God can create.
QUOTE
in every case where we can look at the Bible scientifically, where the claims that God did something are open to objective evaluation, we find that what is claimed simply never happened. There was no worldwide flood, as the Bible claims. There was no special creation, as the Bible claims. In fact, if we just look at the Bible, we find that virtually every supernatural aspect was simply copied from other pre-existing mythologies by the Hebrews
I read an article saying that evidence for evolution is also evidence for creation but I wish to take that further. Your evidence is ours and our evidence is ours. Let us think objectively shall we since you seem so keen to do so. The evidence for a flood is unmistakable, it is written in many literary works of ancient culture that a monumental flood took place but the reasons for it where different.
The bible says God brought the flood because man was evil in his sight and, for example, the babylonians say that it was because man was to noisy but the archeological evidence for a flood is huge. The flood must be held as fact by a creationist to show how the apparent age of the planet is wrong because in such a monumental event stalagmites and stalactites would form very fast, chasms would be hewn by water in a very short time etc. The parting of the continents I believe happened at the time of the flood and when all the animals came out of the ark they went to each land mass and populated the bits that best suited them and built the ecosystems we know today.
The Creation is so amazing and I would say if you want evidence of a creator look at the marvels of creation for God has given us two books, the bible and creation and both show his wonders. I have seen it calculated that if you allowed the whole of the earths surface, land and sea, to be perfect for the manufacture of life and allowing an outside source e.g. a meteor strike to bring life to earth, the probability of producing the simplest bacteria imaginable that could survive to evolve into the next stage is 1 in 10^40000 (1/ (1 with 40000 following zero's). This is what you put your faith in. hears another mathematical probability of assurance for you evolutionists. The rate at which bacteria mustate is quite slow but if assuming that now they are higher forms of life than they were "millions of years ago" then genetic mutations would happen far more often, right, so you do the calculation with an ameoba of the simplest possible that has errors and for one of these errors to form a higher life form. Heres the mass of bacteria you would need, If the earth was 1000'000'000'000 times its diameter this would be the mass of bacteria. That's 1*10^50 bacteria for a guarateed new life count of one I say let mathematics and creation speak and look objectively at the world you live in. For the features of design are unmistakable for you where made by a great God who sits in heaven in Glory waiting to receive you.
DO NOT turn this into ANOTHER evolution vs. creationism thread.
Stay on topic.
Stay on topic.
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