In a minor skirmish that left both of us bloodied, but still standing, a certain un-named, far right, but not correct, Republican and I are not in agreement as to what TJ was.
Doing some searches, I am still of the opinion that he was a liberal. My nemesis in this matter not only says he was conservative, but a Republican. Blasphemy!
There are books claiming both sides of the fence for the man. There is one book, American Sphinx, that may be most correct in its title, if not in the content of the book. The author is under a cloud or two for some of his personal claims, ala Al Gore.
I suppose anyone who has had as much to say as Mr. Jefferson will have inadvertantly said a few things in favor of conservatives. My searches under Conservative Quotes credits only 5 to TJ, but there are bound to be 1 or 2 more.
I have found, particularly in TJ's letters to others, arguments for social welfare, against capitalism, and for funding education for the masses such that any of us can get the liberal education required to be a leader in government. Sounds liberal to me, so far.
BTW, if there appears to be a bias toward the liberal side so far, well, it is MY post.

Please bear in mind that I would never equate his liberal slant to be the same as the current definition of liberal slant. You know the type, the ones who scare some of us away from the Democratic Party.

So the question is, What was Jefferson, liberal or conservative?

Bill,
Let me start by telling everyone that I am this far right Republican (as if you all didn't know). Let me also say, if you would like to see who was "bloodied" Check "Republican Debate" Under "Straying Far Left". And that's at the "Party Specific Debate". While trying not to brag I don't mind telling you all that I site Years of history and even put a link to Whitehouse.gov to prove the point while listening to great come-backs similar to, "I am so much smarter than you haha." I never once heard him site anything. On top of this he claimed that the Whitehouse.gov was scandalous because President Bush could control the information. Now he has appealed to everyone else here to make a decision that has already been lived.
Is this tantamount to asking..."is THE SIMPSONS a cartoon? , is the Whitehouse a building?" ? Yes it is. For all the references in the world as to why he was a Republican...Please see the previous Thread I sited earlier in this foolish rant.

This thread is NOT going to turn into a personal spat. Debate the topic constructively or don't do it all. Spare us an editorial regarding the worthiness of the debate.

My post was tongue-in-cheek. My most humble apologies if you are so easily offended.
I am not a mean, vicious ogre. Well, I may look like one, but underneath I am a soft hearted guy.
I believe that all the founding fathers were liberals, and in that day the word was not offensive to anyone. The word has changed meaning some in the last 200 or so years.
Conservatives of that era were the church leaders and the monarchies, who were the undisputed leaders for most of Europe. And they didn't exactly have the best interests of the common folk in mind when they formed the laws.
Liberal Philosophers, especially during the age of enlightenment, were the ones who were searching for a better way of life and government for the ordinary people. Without them to influence our founding fathers, where would we be? This era was also just prior to the age of revolution. Nearly all the western nations can trace their current representative governments to those philosophers.
I also stand by the comment about Whitehouse.Gov. Just because it is a government site is not a guarantee that it will never contain propaganda. So citing a single internet site is hardly convincing.
It appears that both sides of the fence are fond of quoting Mr. Jefferson, but I suspect that the preponderance of quotes will favor liberal ideas.
If anyone has better knowledge of the issue, please post. If there are not enough responses, let it die.

Mr. Jefferson was very pro-personal freedom, but he was also quite anti-business. It's impossible to know what he'd think if he were alive today, especially seeing as he lived long before the Industrail Revolution, but I'd guess he'd be a European-style libertarian, who opposed both the growing power of centralized government and corporations, much like Noam Chomsky or myself. Calling him a Republican is quite absurd in my opinion, and if that's your view please back it up with some information.

It should be noted that a European-style libertarian is very distinct from what we call a Libertarian in America. The Libertarian"Big L" Party is basically a property rights party, while the "small L" libertarians are focused on freedom from all authority without the property right rhetoric.


EDIT: Jefferson quotes:

Well, I think the founding fathers actions themselves are good enough for me to call them liberal- a radical change in the way goverment is done- liberal by definition- if they were conservative, they would have picked a king and set up a goverment exactly like they already had known and experianced!

A conservative wants things to stay the way he believed them to be in the past (even though often it was not as rosy as he remembered) and an unwillingness to embrace change ie "a conservative bet, a conservative outlook, conservative dress".

Some of the old-school economic ideas of the old mainstream conservative I agree on, staying out of others business, keeping the national debt and deficit managable, staying away from too much spending etc.

I think Thomas Jefforson and in fact all the founding fathers were in fact hippy radical free thinking revolutionaries that were way way way from conservative! LOL

I think the terms liberal and conservative only confuse the issue here. Our country was very lucky to have a president who put Jefferson and Hamilton in positions of power. They had differing views on what the roles of the federal government should be and they both helped lay down the foundation of our system.

In terms of Republican versus Democratic. The Democratic party has a claim its origins can be traced to Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party.

How would Jefferson have approached 9-11? Look at the embargo act. he chose isolation and the removal of U.S. economic interests abroad that might get us further involved in the Napoleonic Wars.

He truly felt that the government that governs best governs least.

In this he slashed defense spending (but did found West point)
He wrote the VA and KY resolutions that were the foundation of the nullification/states rights/right to secede arguments of the 19th century. (They also contested the Supreme Court's claim to the right of judicial review)

He was very suspicious of the rising tide of industry and business. He did not like the bank; he worried about the influence of money and graft over government. He felt that the government should pay its bills and not fund them. He felt it was a betrayal to put of one generation's debts on the next.

He saw virtue in revolution, a la the sentiment that the tree of liberty must be watered in blood every twenty years or so, type of sentiment that he expressed (much more eloquently than that) He placed a high value on the independent individual.

He was anti-elitist. He did not think public officers required great talent to represent their people. So he was a fan of people serving the government temporarily and returning to their private lives.

He was a strict constructionist. He did not want the federal government assuming any powers not expressly granted in the Constitution. So the elastic clause in his mind was a loophole that got around the intent of the constitution to expand federal powers unjustly. (This gave him a grave moral crisis when deciding on whether or not to acquire Louisiana) The needed changes could come with the agreement on amendments that would have to be ratified by the people.

IMO Jefferson's beliefs more closely align with a type of Libertarian philosophy. He was not a conservative (either Burke's philosophy or our neo-con flavor today. He would not have approved of the liberal social welfare network and its attending explosion of the size and scope of the federal government.

His foreign policy is best measured by his dramatic grad for federal power in the Embargo Act. This violated many of his principles in order to isolate America from a threat by not helping cause problems out in the open seas. This nearly crushed our merchant marine.

His political philosphy doesn't seem to bbe similar to either the modern Democrat or Republican Party. Rather he represents the classical libertarian position, small government, isolationism and a deep distrust for the banking system.

Only the modern libertarian party comes near to his way of thinking.

I think this will just be fun to listen to and siting my previous arguments on the other thread
I shall make no attempt to further animosity that may well have never existed....but for
others of you that are debating points it is important that we use the actual definitions of
"Conservative" and "Liberal". Just reading around I see most people in here have their own personal definitions of what exactly these things are. So remember...

Conservatives - are for a small or conservative government (not kings and monarchies just to note quite the opposite)

and

Liberals - are for a large or Liberal helping of government.

And neither implies any religious overtones as most are proned to believe.

John, what exactly make your definitions so much superior to everyone elses'? I call myself a liberal, and I'm not for a larger government. I know a whole lot of conservatives, especially neocons, who want to greatly expand the federal government and it's power. You seem to have gotten your defintions from the GOP. This is what dictionary.com says:




Or is the dictionary part of the "liberal media?"

Certainly the times helps skew the definitions. I would not completely equate the liberal of today (or the perception thereof) to what defined a liberal among the Moderns of philosophy, or among our founding fathers.
I guess I am the type of conservative that is part liberal in that I want change, if it is in the right direction, and will bring progress and benefit mankind.
We have probably all heard it said, "there is nothing constant in life, except change".
There is certainly one constant, though, and that is human nature. That probably will never change.
I can accept TJ being a libertarian, at least that label starts with the right letters.

Jefferson fell short of being a libertarian in the areas of slavery and sodomy laws. Like most men he was infected by the prejudices of his time. I would say he was philisophically a libertarian, but when it came to applying this philosophy to government he sometimes failed.

Liberal as far as I understand the term is for reform while the conservative kind of likes things the way they are, and are thus, pro status quo. Jefferson was obviouly a child of the enlightenment and would have favored liberal reform and a more democratic ideals then the republic they finally agreed on. His theology was definatly liberal since he made a version of the Bible that excluded all references to the supernatural. The fact that he was perhaps the best educated man in America at the time might tend to indicate that he was more liberal by todays standards. The fact that he was highly intelligent and yet not much of a buisness man might tell you something. I have to say Jefferson is what a liberal aspires to be, the very embodiment if there lofty ideals and inability to translate them into practical terms. If you mean liberal in the sense of idealist, iconoclast, reformer, radical Id say sure he is.