In one of the threads comparing European attitude to American ones, someone mentioned something like "Americans don't travel much outside America" and an American responded with "flights are expensive, and we have to fly across the Atlantic where you can just drive across a border".

Disregarding that these were stated in what was more or less a yah-boo, Europe vs America debate, why do you think this is?

I'll clarify my questions and assumptions:
1. Do Americans really make fewer international travel trips than Europeans? If so, why? If not, why do Europeans perceive that they do?
It's commonly stated on threads like this, here and elsewhere, that relatively few Americans hold passports, and implied from this that Americans make few trips abroad. (Does anyone have comparative figures, by the way?)
Here in Britain at least, long-haul travel has become more 'normal'. I'd say (based on my perception, not any survey I've seen) that most middle class Britons expect to travel to the USA/Canada at least once during their lifetime - more likely several times. Australia/Far East probably comes a close second on dream long-haul vacation spots. I detect no similar expectation (or ambition) among the Americans I've met there or corresponded with (the 3-4 Americans I've met here must be the exceptions, provided that the rule itself isn't flawed, as they have all emigrated here)
2. Transatlantic air fares seem to be relatively cheap bought in Europe compared to those bought in America for a journey betweent the same two places. Why is this? Is this the main factor in discouraging long-haul travel for Americans?
I recently (March 2003) paid £159 (about $225 at the time) to fly to Boston MA from London. Is this expensive compared to flying in the other direction? Ultimately I can't see how this would be the case, if indeed it is, unless the market is smaller, i.e. comparatively few Americans actually want to travel to Europe, so the competition between airlines is less fierce, keeping prices relatively higher.
3. Paid vacation time in the USA averages around two weeks per year, compared to an average of four weeks in the EU member states. Is this a driving factor?
Long haul travel for periods less than a week can seem a little curtailed - you lose the first day or two of useful activity to jet-lag.
In the EU four weeks' paid holiday is now the legal <i>minimum</i>. Few Americans get this much leisure time before they reach retirement age - which perhaps explains the British stereotype of American tourists as middle aged or elderly.

In discussing these issues, I think it would be worthwhile trying to separate out any fears of flying, or of a hostile reception to Americans, that were brought about by events of 9-11 and since. I don't expect anyone to ignore these fears, but please try to identify them for what they are, as I would say that the commonly-held perception that Americans don't really like travelling outside the USA, let alone North America (including the Caribbean), pre-dates September 2001 by at least a decade.

Also, if your travelling was directly related to your job in commerce or the military, or that of a family member, please state that in your replies. I'm trying to get a handle on the way Americans think about long-distance travel for leisure.

Well, thanks to the Navy, I have been a few places.
I am of the opinion that there is so much to see and do here in a very large country, that there is little desire for me to visit a bunch of small countries that have less to see and do.
Further, I limit my travels to the western US, as there is still so much to see and do in this part of our country.
And I don't want to cross our southern border again. It is depressing to see such poverty and hopelessness among the people who live RIGHT NEXT DOOR to us.
I will eventually go to Canada, the western part of course.
I can see the British wanting to go to USA, Canada, Australia. Could that be because those places are not England?
Yes, travel time is a big factor, likewise the lesser amount of vacation that we get here.
But overall, I think a lot of us just don't see much attraction in Europe.

Surely anybody who has any understanding of Americas roots, Classical Civislisation and the great history of Europe, let along Russia, China and India would love to travel outside the US of A?!

I think America's roots are imbedded in the minds of certain European philosophers, many of whom had to leave their own countries to be free to speak their minds and publish their thoughts. Visiting their places of birth isn't important. Acknowledging their contribution is.
My current "hobby of intellect" is studying the Age of Enlightment, and to a lesser extent the Age of Revolution. The many wars fought are not near as fascinating as the ideas of man that led to the wars.

Thats good, but theres nothing better than to travel to Versailles, Paris, Berlin or even Moscow - all places where I have travelled too. You can spend your whole life reading the history of Russia, for example, but nothing beats actually walking around Red Square at night!!!

Remember, you have only one life(?) on this planet, so take advantage of it.

I read in the newspaper last year, that something like 10% of Americans hold passports. I think the reason that many Americans dont travel is the hassle of going overseas. Ive had many a friend who would sit there cooing to me "Youre so lucky to have gone to France" (or insert the few other countries Ive been to), and when I made the simple suggestion of them getting a passport, it was just dismissed. I dont think its really that much more expensive to travel from the US to somewhere (especially not to Europe, where there are always airflight deals and student discounts AND hotels are WAY cheaper in Europe, and Im not just referring to hostels). I also think that some Americans are wary of going to a country where they dont speak the language. This is all just speculation, of course.

The main reason I want to travel has little to do with history (and I am fascinated by history, but am less fascinated with sight seeing old monuments), and more to do with exploring cultural differences. So while the US has many sites to see, everywhere I go I will see the same Starbucks, McDonalds, SUVs, etc. Besides I have seen a good portion of the US through being part of a military family

To answer Bill, I'd say that the British people who are most likely to travel long-haul to the USA - the middle income middle classes - are also the ones most likely to travel within the UK.

It isn't an either-or choice, except in low-to-middle income brackets, where the desire to go somewhere reliably hot and sunny pulls people towards the Mediterranean. When the summer weather in Britain is warm and dry, it compares well with anywhere we're likely to want to visit. However, it's unpredictable exactly WHEN it will happen, so for someone wanting their annual dose of sunshine, Spain, France, Greece or Italy are safer bets.

In the lowest income brackets there's no decision to take, of course.

Happily, it is more and more possible for us to do both long and short haul trips - we're a small country, so it's easy to nip away somewhere for weekends. This is mainly because of discounted, fiercely competitive short-haul air travel to the rest of Europe, and the Channel Tunnel link (which has also has to compete).

We don't travel abroad because we don't like Britain (or "England" as you insist on calling it), or else maybe we'd never come back. We do it because we like travelling.

I can understand why you want to visit the Western USA - I've been there myself and plan to come back again in the next few years. What I'm trying to get a handle on is why you don't think you can, or don't want, to visit Europe (or Australia or Japan or anywhere else - I'm not writing because I want your tourist dollars here ) as welll, which is why I raised cost and time implications in my original questions.

If you had FOUR weeks paid vacation, minimum, like Europeans get (in my last job, including additional service days, I got 28 days per year, over and above national holidays) would you THEN consider travel outside the USA?

Yes, Americans by and large make fewer international travel trips than Europeans.

Why? Distance is the biggest factor. With the exception of Russia, no country in Europe has the sort of distances necessary to reach an international border that many American citizens face, AND because ours is very mobile society, we find ourselves doing a tremendous amount of intra-national travel. When your relatives are scattered from one end of the continent to the other, visiting them leaves less time for visiting the great musuems of Europe.

My guess on the transatlantic fares may have more to do with gov't subsidies of airlines than anything else, although giving the shifting winds in the airline industry, who knows what direction the fares will be going on both sides of the pond. The fares are not, however, the main reason. A lot of Americans have visited foreign countries when they, or their families, were in the military, and thus the travel bug is sated.

Yes, especially since Americans also have a tendency to take mini-vacations, which eats into their vacation allotment. Unlike Germany, all of America doesn't go on vacation the same month. We generally have the ability to take a day or two here, a day or two there, etc. Thus, it is more "difficult" to put together a large chunk of vacation suitable for trans-oceanic travel.

International travel is psychologically a bigger deal over here, because we have a wider cost/time spread between domestic travel and international travel than you experience. Its not that a lot of Americans have an aversion to it, its simply that the real costs are higher in relation to domestic travel, and that doesn't even begin to address the hassles.

Grace and peace, BD

If you had FOUR weeks paid vacation, minimum, like Europeans get (in my last job, including additional service days, I got 28 days per year, over and above national holidays) would you THEN consider travel outside the USA?

Yes, Julian. I have actually wanted to visit Ireland and Scotland (the better parts of Britian, or am I still messing that up) , but time has been the issue. I just retired, and my wife is a teacher, so a trip there may be in our future. She retires in 4 years, so probably after that.
If we visit your town, lunch is on you.

Nah - WALES is the best bit.

If it's castles you want, South East Wales (and hour and a half or so from Heathrow Airport) has more in the county of Monmouthshire than any other comparable-sized area in the world (it's roughly oblong in shape, with sides of 50 and 40 miles - not very big). A few of them are still private residences, too (Usk and Penhow, for two).



I live in Swindon, which is good and central for places like London, Bristol, Oxford, Stonehenge, Salisbury, and so on. So, you're on!

Absolutely. America is huge. I'm not sure if people realize just how huge it is. Cut America and paste it over Europe to get the idea.

There is so much to see and do within our own borders, most people never see it all in one lifetime. Granted, we don't have the history that Europe does, but we have fascinating sites to see nonetheless.



I can't believe you only paid $225 to fly overseas. That is amazing. If it were that cheap, I would have done it a long time ago, and would be planning to in the future. I live on the west coast USA, just getting to the east coast will cost me $500-$600.

I have NO clue why it is so cheap for you and expensive for me. Gov't subsidies perhaps? Whatever the reason, cost is definitely prohibitive for even some middle class people.



It's a well known fact that Americans work more hours and get less vacation than most of the world. It's sad but true. A typical American will usually not see 4 weeks of vacation until they are employed by the SAME company for around 10 years. If you leave and go work somewhere else...you start over.... 2 weeks.

As I said before, America is huge. I can't even begin to count the number of people I know who have family scattered throughout the US. They tend to use up their vacation and money flying out to see them.

Example: I live in Portland, Oregon. If I wanted to see my Navy friend in southern California, I would spend around $225 . And it's probably only 1000 miles away. sucks don't it?

You mentioned a stereotype that only old people travel abroad. I'm not sure it's a stereotype as much as it is the truth. Old people with lots of time, no jobs, and large nest eggs tend to travel.

I do think there is one other reason which hasn't been mentioned yet. Right or wrong, Americans perceptions on what others think of us, is not good. While I've never traveled overseas myself, many family, friends and colleagues have. They report much the same thing. That they were not treated very well and were made to feel unwelcome, after others learned where they were from. This is both before, and after 9/11. Some places are certainly worse (or better) than others.

Sitting down eating dinner, and being hasseled by the waitress about Bush's foreign policy, doesn't sound appealing to me.

***********

There are many things I would love to see around the world. Great Barrier Reef (I'm a sucker for mother nature) Paris, Red Square, Pyramids, Ireland, Italy, Rome...you name it. I don't however, expect to ever see these places. heh.. maybe I'll find a woman with rich parents someday

--cheers

I think the percentage of Americans who visit Europe is roughly equal to the percentage of Europeans who visit America. Obviously, we have a military presence over there, which would account for many thousands (perhaps millions) of visitors alone. Some Texans have never been outside of their state. My Italian grandmother lived within a half hour of Venice, and never visited once in her 90 years on the earth.

I believe much of this is a generational thing also. Younger people (especially those without children) enjoy traveling long distances and experiencing new cultures, if the opportunity presents itself. Older people don't seem to as much. Most parents with young children don't like to travel that far either, for obvious reasons (and it's very expensive)....I know it would be a toss-up as to whether I would rather go on another 12 hour flight with my two youngsters or be shot.

I've been to Europe three times. The first two were with my mother, when I was 7 and 14. The other when I was 29 (as a military dependant). I also went to Asia because I had to for my husband's job, but I would never go that far (about 27 hours total travel) again unless I had to.

edited to add: I love England..been there twice. When I go back (probably in about 4 years or so) I will also see Wales, Scotland, and Ireland.

And the number one reason is.......price!

Just on a quick lookup.

With a months notice and returning a month later, a roundtrip fare from Albany, NY to London, UK will run you $920

With a weeks notice and returning a month later, a roundtrip fare from Albany, NY to London, UK will run you $1000

With a weeks notice and returning a week later, a roundtrip fare from Albany, NY to London, UK will run you $1100

I don't know about all americans, but I can't afford to spend $1100 per person just for flight fare. That's crazy. I might have $1100 to spend on an entire trip, flight fare, hotel, food, etc...

Wow! That IS expensive.

A quick check of British ticket costs on the web shows prices of £911.80 - equivalent to $1470, which is comparable (actually more expensive) than buying the tickets in the USA to come to London.

However, there are no direct flights to Albany from London; you have to change at least once, arriving in the USA at either Dulles or Atlanta. Direct flights to Dulles can be had for £573 ($924). That's still quite expensive - Washington isn't one of the biggest tourist destinations from here (unlike NYC, Boston, Florida or California, so the competition is less fierce). Considering the distance that you have to travel, the internal connecting flights between Dulles and Albany are the extortionate ones. If you really HAD to come to London, it would almost certainly be cheaper to drive to Washington, use the long term car park (costing maybe $200?) and fly from there.

The real secret, of course, is to fly off-season. The main reason I could fly to Boston for less than $300 is that I did it at the beginning of March.

But all of this does beg the question as to why Brits seem to be more willing to fly to the USA than Americans are to fly here - the money is about the same in either direction, so it can't be that. Which leaves vacation time and/or a simple unwillingness to leave the USA, really.

Well, my point is not that it's more expensive for us, it's that there are a lot more lower to middle class people than upper class(income-wise). I'm not rich, but I don't make minimum wage either, I have a great job in a large software company in the IT department and there's no way I could afford a trip overseas. The money it would require to make that kind of trip could always, 100% of the time, be used for a down payment on a house, a new car, paying tuition for myself, spouse or child, something. Unless I had some pretty screwed up priorities, I will probably never see anything outside of North America.