I usually differ with my party on gays, but this seems way out of line. I would be furious if my tax money was being spent this way.

This story is on CNN.com

Though I think an all gay school is a great idea, it should be in the realm of a private school, such as a Christian School. If this were to be a publicly paid school, it would feed to the bygone idea of state sponsored segregation.

To be fair, this is not the creation of a new public school - merely an expansion. This school has been in existence for 20 years, but was only 2 classrooms in size.

The schools are controlled by the people. If voters don't like it, they will elect a new school board to close the school. So I'd say the proof of whether or not this is a good idea will come in a few years.

Perhaps the conservative politicians who are opposing this should focus more on ending bigotry and violent harrassment of gays in public schools instead of spending time railing against this particular reaction to such activity.

You're a good man Charlie Brown!

I have to agree. This could be the start of another segregation problem.

We need to stop treating gays like they are a disease and treat them like human beings.

Just because their lifestyle is different, doesn't mean we put them in a seperate school.

And the problem with a state sponsored all gay school is that this is supported by the gay community. Being a lesbian myself, I have to say that this will encouraging the stigma that we want "special rights". African Americans don't have government sponsored "Black" public schools, that would be considered segregation. Why would an all gay public school be any different? I think that the gay community and the gay corporate sector in the larger and more progressive cities like New York and San Fransisco are organized enough and have the resources to fund a private school for gay kids. I see no problem with that, several groups in America do that: Christian schools, Catholic schools, military schools, finishing schools and the haughty rich whiteman elitist schools. There is no reason that the gay community cannot create this. But to involve public funding for this now, is premature. I would hate to see a back lash. I think the fight for basic equal rights, such as government recognized same sex union, with all the same rights that straight married couples have and national anti-gay discrimination laws are the pertinent goals that lay ahead of the gay community.

Actually, black colleges ARE funded via tax dollars. Until 2001, they weren't required to be diverse.

I agree with quark partially on this issue. We (collective we) need to work on promoting tolerance so these children aren't forced to seek alternate solutions to an education.

Until then, gay schools should be privately funded.

Really? I didn't know that. Ofcourse, I agree that the attitudes towards the gay community is what needs to change.

I think that this has gone wayyy too far! An all gay school is too stupid. What if we made an all white school or an all black school? Activist will get on their needs and start protest

Kids to other kids can be very cruel. They don't just pick on someone being Gay. They pick on nerds, overweight kids, short kids, tall kids white kids, black kids, ( I think you see my Point). I don't think making an all Gay school is the answer to the way some kids are treated in general. Maybe I am wrong, but let me know how some of the people here who are gay think about this. Do you think if they made an all gay school and the kids that are the bullies already know about this school, do you think they would wait outside this school and taunt them even more knowing it is an all gay school? Sad to say I think this would happen. It should not but there are those kids who would do just that. Your Thoughts. -

Here is the news article I am using for background:

Gay High School

Although the people behind this program seem to have their hearts in the right place, in the attempt to protect these students from harrassment, I feel that this is not the best way to achieve this goal. Would we say "The students who belong to Ethnic Group A are being harrassed by Ethnic Group B; let's put them in their own school for their own protection"? I hope not. I hope we would, instead, make it clear that harrassment will not be tolerated.

Something like the organization linked below would be better for public high schools, I think.

The Liverpool High School Gay/Straight Alliance

This is completely different from segregation of blacks and whites in the South. The blacks had no choice in the matter, because they were forced to attend all-black schools. In this case, they're simply providing a haven for gays and lesbians that have to deal with serious bullying and beating that the school system is either unable or unwilling to take care of. There's only going to be about 150 students, meaning that only the most extreme cases would enroll.

I see nothing wrong with this. If they were forcing gays and lesbians to go to this school, it would be terrible, but that's not what's happening. If my children were gay or lesbian, I personally wouldn't send them to a school like that, but if parents feel that their child's learning and/or safety is in danger, then they should be allowed to send their children to a place where they know they won't have to worry about this anymore.

If you want to protect these kids from abuse, go after the harrassers and punish them, don't just have the gay kids run from their problems. What happens when they're adults, they won't know how to handle abuse.

CP

Unfortunately, this doesn't address the problem. It isn't the gay students, it's the homophobes that need to be addressed. Even if they do go to gay schools, that hatred is going to be waiting for them when they leave school. What do they do? Live in gay communities and close themselves off from the outside world? That's the kind of thing that many blacks and Irish and Italian people did in the 19th century, forming cultural communities where they didn't have to worry about being hated, but it didn't change the hatred outside of the community. In fact, it made people hate them more because they were perceived as anti-social with something to hide.

Ultimately, gays and lesbians are going to simply have to face the hatred head on and deal with the consequences. Some people will never like them but most, with exposure, will come to accept them so long as they act like good, responsible human beings.

You can not promote equality by giving preferential treatment to one group. It doesn't matter if its white kids, black kids, gay kids, etc.. This school is just another example of government running away from the problem. If you want to stop teasing in school then crack down on those tormenting others. Don't throw money at the problem in order to avoid dealing with it.

Exactly. Fighting against intolerance is what makes a community stronger, not ostersizing themselves. I would hate to live in an all gay neighborhood or community. Just the same, I don't have any gay neighbors right now, but my partner and I are befriending our suburban straight lased friends and I think over time we'll be accepted into our family based neighborhood! It's persistence and good character that makes a difference. Not retreating and cowardness.

Precisely. And for all you know, you might have gay neighbors. People, be it in school or on the street, should be befriended based on how they act in public, not what they do in the bedroom. Every kid is going to find people who are going to laugh at them or treat them unfairly. That's normal and natural and a part of life. To take kids and segregate them into an environment where everyone is the same does the kids a disservice. Besides, if anyone thinks that just having gay and lesbian kids in a gay and lesbian school is going to stop the normal laughing and unfairness that all kids face, they're nuts. It just won't be based on sexual orientation, but on looks, dress and all the other things that kids have to deal with in the outside world.

Segregation is never the answer.

It does not teach these kids to cope with the situation, it does not send the message to the offenders that their actions are wrong.

Maybe we should start a "fat high school" why not, they get made fun of.

CP

This isn't a permanent solution.

However, we're not going to "solve" homophobia and harassment of gays at school overnight. Simply exposing homophobes 150 more gay people will not solve the problem, it will just make life terrible for those 150 gay people. I see nothing wrong with allowing them to attend a school where they can get away from the harassment until we can get rid of the problems of homophobia and bullying to a degree that they can go back to normal school. If solving these problems was as easy as you treat it, there'd be no need for this type of school. But we've been treating bullying like a problem for quite a while now, and we haven't solved it. Do you really think we can just snap our fingers and end it?

This is not taking all the gay people and putting them in a seperate school. That's segregation. This is giving some specific gay children and letting them escapse the harassment and have a safe learning enviroment. It's a shame that we can't provide that otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that we can't.

There are so many in the gay community that have been persecuted, bashed, ridiculed, teased and discriminated against. YES IT IS WRONG. I'm gay, I've had it happen to me. But in all honesty, it's the adversity in our lives that make us stronger and it's how we rise above them that sets the example for others to be strong of character. If we separate the gay kids from the straight kids, how are the straight kids going to learn that the lies, misunderstandings and homophobia from the previous generations aren't right? Yeah the media is a lot more liberal than it used to be, but it's our PEERS that truly influence us the most, ESPECIALLY during adolescence.

It is simply special treatment and should not be allowed.

Why NOT start a "fat school" or a "dork school" or a "school for people with lisps"?

The same arrangement would HAVE to be extended to every group which is bullied or harassed.

This is no solution.

By the way, don't you know that no government program EVER ends? In a few years, if the program were ended, some people would inevitably cry foul that their school is being closed. Also, further down the road, the school will be pointed at as yet another case of state sponsored segregation (regardless of the original intent), this time of gays instead of blacks.

I agree. Right now it may seem like it's progression, but it could be turned against the gay community and be inforced (though I doubt it). I don't want this to lead to wearing a pink triangle on my clothes...

This isn't separating the gay kids from the straight kids. This is New York city and this is a 150-student school. I assure you, of the millions of children in NYC, more than 150 of them are gay. This is just a place for the msot extreme victims of harassment can go. There's not going to be any gay diasopra from public schools, it's just a safe haven for those who have no other options.




No it wouldn't. Maybe it wouldn't be fair, but I know that gay kids always faced a lot more *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** than fat kids or kids with thick glasses. Unless schoolchildren have become a lot more enlightened in the last 10 years, they're still hugely homophobic and treat gay people much worse than anyone else.

If we are going to allow gays to "escape" the harassment of others by building them this school, we need to build a school for anyone that is being harassed, just in case they "need to escape" from the harassment. Musicians, art lovers, goths, computer geeks, obese kids, scrawny kids, drug users, non drug users, etc...
i know that the abuse facing the homosexual community is much more severe than most of us realize. but that does not change that treating them like they have more right to avoid abuse than others is ridiculous.
I support that they can have a school for only Gays if they wish, it doesn't bother me extremely. it only bothers me when they are going to use public money to do so. it should be a privately funded and ran organization. like any christian academy, (where christian families do not want their kids subjected to the abuse of the other kids). Or any homeschool organization ( where kids are not subjected to others, by parental discretion).
Whether you support these private institutions or not, it doesn't not matter, because they are privately funded by the parents of the students who are in it.
now this raises the issue of affording such a school, and that raises the old issue of school vouchers, and states helping fund private schools. but let us not fall into that.
any school that will stray from the general public in cirriculum or attendees should not be publically funded.

I understand that. But what starts as a small idea in the LARGEST and ONE of the most culturally influential cities in our country, could, over time become the status quo. I think it's good that NYC is compassionate towards those kids, and in theory it's a great idea. BUT NOT GOVERNMENT FUNDED. It should be in the context of a private school, like a private Christian school, as I've stated earlier.

Billy, that's a logical fallacy. If that happens, the there'll be a problem, and we have to solve it. But making a safe haven for 150 kids whi face the worst abuse in the city school system is a noble thing to do.

I agree that it's noble a noble endeavor.

edited to add:

But my conclusions aren't based on an uninformed opinion, nor are they a logical fallacy. I look at our own history and come my conclusions.

In this situation I'd call it more quixotic than noble.

People are going to be homophobic wherever you go. People are going to be anti-semitic, racist and a plethora of other prejudices wherever you go.
Yea, these kids would have a safe haven from homophobia while in school. Great. They're still going to pick on each other over clothes, acne, weight, intelligence, etc... And then they're going to step out of school and be ridiculed for their sexual preference as well. That is life; no matter who you are or what you do someone will hate you for it.
...and these are the years you learn to deal with it.

Creating a separate Government Funded school for these kids is not the answer. Dealing with prejudice within the schools is.
I remember an incident in one of my classes where a guy came up to me and thought he'd get a nice laugh out of me with an off-color, anti-semitic joke (something to do with "Jews and Pizza"). I replied that I was Jewish, and then ignored him for the rest of the year. When I went to the administration their response was telling me to, "Just not sit near him."

"Just don't sit near him," is the problem that needs to be dealt with.

And I'm not even going to get into the horrible precedent this sets since it was adressed so nicely by other posters...

back to lurking!

Another possible fallout that came to mind is when these kids graduate and apply for jobs (perhaps even college), it could give a homophobic employer an easy way to spot a gay applicant. I know it sounds crazy, but it should be kept in mind.

I want to contribute, but Cephus stole mah thunder.

Then please refrain from posting until you have something constructive to add.

If gays want their own school, why can't they pay for it themselves? The people of New York don't need their tax dollars going for this.

It's not like NY state doesn't fund other schools; this one will be no different in function or funding; it will just be geared to a different element of the population.

Ok, I thought something funny was going on with this whole story, so I decided to look into it.

No "gay-only" high school exists in NYC as far as I could find. The school that is being debated here, apparently, is the the Harvey Milk School (HMS). This gay-friendly high school has been in existence in NYC for SIXTEEN (16) YEARS. The only thing that is changing, and is what seems to have gotten some folks' undies in a bunch, is that the city will kick in $3.2 million (approved by the Board of Education who are elected) to renovate a school so the HMS can expand.

What I think is very important here for people to know is that the HMS does NOT require a student to be gay, lesbian, or transsexual to attend - you can be straight and attend there if accepted. From their own website's FAQ:

I hope this information sheds some light on what is really happening here and not just what the headlines say.

Edited for spelling - duh -J

I'd say that clinches it. Does anyone still think it's unacceptable even though they admit heterosexual students?

I certainly do not think it is unacceptable, but I still contend that it is not the best solution to the problem (as much as I applaud the sincere efforts of the people behind the idea.) Perhaps it is simply the romantic in me; instead of setting up a place where we say "Here you are safe and welcome," why are not all schools places where we can say it?

For those students who feel safe only at this facility, I can only be sorrowful that they have been victimized to such an extent that this becomes necessary. I heartily wish for the day when the Harvey Milk School will be simply another school, because its special function will no longer be needed.

It does not discriminate, but will many straight kids apply for this special school now that it is advertised as a "gay" school?

From the hmi.org site:

This seems to indicate that although all are welcome, it is basically a "LBGTQ" school.

$3.2 million for 170 kids : $18,823 per kid which does not include operating costs, only the costs of expansion.

It should be pointed out that HMI (Hetrick-Martin Institute) is a private institute that is for helping the gay community (very laudable). The HMS (Harvey Milk School) is a public school that is in partnership with HMI.
It currently serves 50 kids, and the expansion will help it expand to 170 kids.

The whole idea would be great for a private institution. The fact that they are using public money (to the tune of almost $19,000 per student) to provide a safe haven from the real world is not so great.

I think children learn a lot more than literal education in school, they learn about social settings, communication, competition, how to defend oneself and expand as an individual by the hard lessons taught from co-existing with others. All of us are unique and high school can be hard on everyone but the most beautiful and popular, the rest usually have to work for acceptance and understanding and find where they fit into society, its a part of getting ready for adulthood.

On that premise I think these kids may be psychologically less prepared for life after high school, akin to children that are overly protected from the outside world by their parents. How do you get a well rounded experience? How could education begin to be based around sexual preference? Sexual preferences to me are secondary to who a person is in their life, especially in high school. Since when is it a basis for life itself to revolve around? I think weve gone a bit off the deep end with this and hope it is not the start of a trend.

What happens in college or the work force when these coddled kids are suddenly faced with the cold hard facts of life?

I don't understand why gays would WANT segregation but I don't expect anyone to want to be forced to pay for it. I'm against an all gay high school because it does nothing to further tolerance.

Seems like a single bullies-only high school would solve everyones problems and remove the need for fat kids high, dork high and gay high in one stroke.

If you have a pattern of abusing your classmates, bye bye. Then the bullies can eat each other with the survivors probably graduating to the prison system, business school, or straight to the car dealerships.

Danya, we've already established it is not an all-gay high school.

I suppose that if there is a problem and the student's parents can afford tuition for this place, fine. But what about those who cannot afford it? Again, it comes down to fixing the public schools so that they are safer places for everyone. Not easily done.

At best, this is a halfway measure. An attempt at fairness in an unfair world. Seems to me a legislator should look at the costs to taxpayers of subsidizing HMS and compare it to bolstering the public schools, then present to the taxpayers a choice.

In the first place, I think its backwards to be creating more personal weakness in our society by aggressively sheltering kids from the realities of social interaction. But if liberals really want to ensure that gay kids have no endurance to teasing, they should encourage the PRIVATE SECTOR to fund a special school for them,

(And this part goes to Pal. Els. last post)

and support President Bush's school choice initiatives so they can actually afford to go to it.


Schools with value attachments should remain in the private sector, lest we open the door to taxpayer-funded Catholic schools.

And (to paraphrase Joe Scarborough from MSNBC, 8-7-03) you can't create special schools for obese kids, gay kids, acne-infested kids, etc., just to prevent kids from facing inevitable teasing (as if thats what we should be aiming for anyway) and expect the tax payers to accept that.

And if teasing reaches a point of actual degredation or begins to violate anyone's rights, the appropriate place to go is the school administrators. If they won't protect their kids from ACTUAL degradation, then again, the problem is with the administrator, and HE/SHE is what needs to change.

I should hope not. I wouldn't send my kids to a school that didn't have any values. It's just a matter of deciding what values are acceptable for schools, and I see nothing wrong with this.




Oh, but you can. You can't make schools for those who are facing serious and unrelenting harassment and expect Joe Scarborough to accept it, but you can certainly expect the general populace to accept it. It's nice to have rhetoric about magically solving the problem of bullying by simple administrative decisions, but if it were that easy then we wouldn't have anyone even wanting to go to this school.

So, when no one wants to go to this school, then the problem's solve and we won't need it anymore.

Rattlesnake, values are not what I'm calling the enemy here, its secular, creed-specific, or religous schools that I was referring to. Of course we want schools with values, just not ones that use tax payer money while beholding/promoting political views.


AndChristians are picked on as well. Would you allow your tax dollars to fund a Christian school? How about a fat kids school, one for kids with acne, one for kids that hit puberty too soon? Or should we not bankrupt our local governments with every kind of school for every kind of teasing as kids create them? Do you really think its feasible to segregate our schools (which by the way, violates every "diversity policy" on the books) just so we can make our kids even weaker?

Also, you apparently haven't looked at the poll results either here or elsewhere. Even a decent chunk of liberals oppose their tax dollars used this way. I think its fair to say that taxpayers DON'T accept this cost.

Atheists are picked on as well. So are non-Christians. If you keep creating all of these schools, where does it end? And where does the fat kid with acne go? How about the Christian with braces? Do they get into the Christian-friendly school or the braces-friendly school? What happens when the kid at the fat-friendly school stars getting laughed at for wearing glasses?

The problem with all of this is it makes no sense. It solves no problems and wastes tons of money.

This is simply a school for children who harassed at other schools and the school administrators are unable or unwilling to do anything about it. Gay fat Chriistians with braces are admitted along with straight, skinny atheists with dentures. You don't seem to be getting that.

Rattlesnake, if that is true, then the only problem left is that we are spending tax dollars to fund a special school for kids that are picked on, which only weakens them. And if they don't discriminate, whats the difference between them and any other school?

I didn't think that they'd want to be segregated from everyone else. I have a few gay friends, and not one of them would want such a school. I think it would just be another example of politicians with more money than brains.