Reminder - Let's make sure this thread doesn't stray to far from the topic of France.

I think you misunderstood what my aim was.

I doubt that it takes several months to form a plan to save peoples lives. It is a standard peacekeeping operation, its nothing compared to an invasion because the people are requesting our help, not fighting against us.

And Bush did say that the United States wouldn't play a major role in Liberia. 2000 peacekeepers is really not that many, at least not compared to Iraq.

And it is undeniably true that our focus is more on Iraq than liberia. Both people are suffering, what makes the iraqis more important... (Start another post please!)

Anyway, getting back on topic, I think its fine if you hate the French government. I, personally, don't believe they have done anything to warrant outright hate. But if you want to, go ahead. Just don't stereotype and hate all French people.

I was looking again at the title of this thread--"Is the anti-French sentiment that has swept the nation justified or not"? Can we really assume that it has "swept the nation"? Whether it has or not, it's a parochial attitude. It does provide a safe harbor for channeling bigotry that cannot be expressed regarding other groups without incurring condemnation.

Anti-war sentiment swept the world more than anti-French sentiment swept the country. It's not often that protesters can count on having so much company in so many countries. This was not a popular war. As far as world opinion goes, France's opposition to the war was a popular stance.

And while our own leaders are backpedalling and have had three officials (so far) come forward, each claiming that it was his/her fault that the erroneous intelligence statement made it into the State of the Union speech (hold anyone accountable but the one who delivered the speech, for heaven's sake!), President Chirac has not had to defend his or his government's stance against the war. The absence of WMDs has only ruffled the feathers of the Coalition of the Few.

This "pre-emptive" war on Iraq has sullied the reputation of the United States. While France will suffer some economically from fewer American tourists visiting them, the United States stands to lose from many other nations who have yet one more reason to hold America and its leaders in contempt. Would that we took care of our own inconsistencies before condemning other countries for theirs!

(Edited to add: Have you looked at the poll results? As of this writing, responders indicated that the anti-French sentiment was: Justified=6, Ridiculous=13, Other=3)

Actually, for the fun of it, don't hit the I'm feeling lucky button. I found over thirty pages of web sites including the above set of directions. It's becoming a bit trite.

France, Germany, Russia, and I am certain other countries wanted to give the weapons inspectors more time, and opposed our invasion of Iraq. The President has declared a victory. American deaths continue to rise as a couple of soldiers die every day. What about the weapons of Mass Destruction? The President has learned, like the UN weapons inspectors, that it might take some time and effort to find them, if they even exist. We are being told that someone slipped falsified documents into the President's speech. How are we supposed to respond? We're supposed to be patient and believe that these weapons will eventually be found. Isn't that what the world was asking of America before the war?

We could have been patient and waited for the weapons to be found without a costly invasion and occupation. I fail to see where I should line up behind this "leadership" in Washington and hate the French, simply because they failed to join the Coalition of the Coerced.

That's interesting considering that the U.S. went to war for money and its own interests.

Urban, there was no reason to ever get involved in that conflict to begin with. We should have chosen neither evil. Even then our recent action in Iraq says nothing for the dealings we continue to have with other nations claiming horrible human rights records. We were led to war under the claim that Iraq was an "imminent threat," and we asked other nations to fight alongside us under this claim. Nearly 200 U.S. soldiers and thousands of Iraqi civilians later, it appears that Iraq was less and less of a threat to her neighbors, much less the United States and other industrialized nations. Why should the French have committed soldiers to die and contributed to the deaths of Iraqi civilians for what they felt was a lie, and what appears more so each day to have been a lie?

In regards to Halliburton, the U.S. is not the only country with professionals in the oil business. The United States is also not the only country which lost soldiers in Iraq. Beyond Halliburton we also have MCI Worldcom being awarded uncompetitive contracts for Iraq's reconstruction. If you follow the link, you'll be reminded that Worldcom was busted for the biggest American accounting fraud last year. This will also be their first attempt at trying to establish a wireless network. While Halliburton got much of the press, there were other irresponsible and questionable businesses being awarded profits for the war in Iraq.

Other than to tow the line I can see no reason why France should have supported us in this war. It appears those who offered the most support have found themselves in a political firestorm for doing so with little or nothing gained from it. Our very own credibility has been left in tatters as a result. If there's a reason to hate the French, I certainly don't see recent actions in Iraq to be it.

I love that suggestion. How's bout we totally ignore all the problems all over the world. Hey yeah, then we'd never have to deal with any problems....WOW I wonder why no one ever thought of this before???

The French didnt put Saddam OR the Ayotollah into power (but guess who did?), so what mistake are they refusing to correct?

I would also like to point out that something around 70% of the French population protested against the war, while only 40% of Americans protested against the war. The US going to war makes some sort of sense, since a majority was FOR the war. In France the majority was AGAINST the war, cite money all you want, but its not the like the French people wanted to go to war. And isnt that what elected officials are supposed to do, go with the will of the people?

This is a classic straw man argument. Abs never said anything even close to what you're ridiculing him for. All that he said was that we should not have supported Saddam Hussein or Iran, because both sides were terrible. Your post does not even approach being constructive.

Come on Abs. We aren't doing anything wrong, don't you think we'd of heard of the US companies drilling for anyone other than the Iraqis? Do you think it's possible that we're helping the Iraqis, mind you helping the Iraqis may help us also, but that wasn't the basis of the war. Come on. I assume you mean paying Turkey to join the war was the "Hypocrisy" you are referring to, but what was wrong with that? Paying a country to liberate people, how horrible of us! Now let's see what France was doing, paying countries and threatening countries so they don't liberate an oppressed people, that's not right.

CP

This is what I'm talking about.

"Oh, well, we saved your country, I guess you won't be needing this Oil anymore!"

Thats what I what I'm hearing when you say "mind you, helping out the Iraqis may help us also."

If we're truly a nation that uses it heart, then why are we paying so much attention to Iraq when Liberia is a country that is being much more devastated. Aren't they humans too?

Come on now. Are they people too? Yeah, that's why we are going to help them. We have to finish off the war we are fighing without French help. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Our main objective in this war was to free the Iraqi people, it is coincidental that oil is involved at all. The point is, we went to war with Iraq to free the Iraqi people, among other things, none of which was oil. Now, saving people is always a good thing, so if your France, why intimidate other countries to "persuade them not to save an opressed country? That is immoral to do, so how is hating the French gov't so immoral?

CP

Remind me who the French paid or threatened not to support the United States, Conservpat. Provide links. While you're at it, perhaps you could provide some kind of evidence as to misdeeds committed by the French in relation to Iraq over the last 12 years.



That's why Iraq took precedence over Liberia despite the situation there being significantly worse, right?

I would be giving you the same links that I provided in the Hating France thread, well, here they are, again. Here's one and, here's another one.
As to the case with Liberia, we are planning to go there, we went after Iraq first because SH and the US have history, and he's suspected of harboring terrorists. Let's face it, there is no proof that we went into Iraq because of oil, meanwhile there is plenty of facts that suggest the French didn't go into Iraq because of cash.

CP

I never said I hate the French government. I said I disagree with it. And I think that most Americans who dislike the French do so because of the old stereotypes, ex: French people not taking showers or not fighting back. It's more for comical reasons than personal hatred.

The first link says nothing of what I asked you about, Cp. It says nothing about France paying or threatening countries to align against the United States on Iraq, and it says nothing about French misdeeds over the last 12 years in relation to Iraq and the sanctions against them. Citing an article that France was one of Iraq's largest trading partners is no more damning than me citing an article showing what a significant consumer of oil we are in the United States. If your hatred is tied into France trading with Iraq I find it curious why you don't also hate Russia.

And while France vocally criticized certain members, and countries awaiting membership, of the European Union, the USA Today article says nothing of France either threatening or paying countries to align themselves in opposition to the Iraq war. It too does not address any French misdeeds that they would, as you believe, have to atone for.

The articles show that France traded with SH, and it showed how Iraq threatened countries joining the US, how is this not incriminating? It shows exactly what I said is true. And who said I didn't hate Russia? I certainly didn't. So I'm not sure what's wrong with my clear case against the French, it's backed by evidence, accept it if you want.

CP

It showed no threats and France was hardly the only country to trade with Saddam Hussein. We traded with Saddam Hussein. Hate whoever you and the kettle like, though.

CP ,
This is such a hard topic to debate and not because the french are respectable people, but because those defending them are absolutley, rock solidly and one hundred percent determined to side with anyone that hates America as much as the french government does. It's intolerable! I have pointed out flaw after flaw and people just over look them. In the old "Hate france" thread I spoke several times on the anti-semetism that really never left france and people just ignored the allegations. Now they say that the article I posted was "biased", as if all
the other evidence I posted never existed. It showed the systematic integrated way that the government chose to snuggle up to the Moslems by hating the Americans and Jews. But you know what CP , if they aren't inclined to despise the french government for hating Americans, they won't hate france for siding up with Saddam, or Radical Islam, or for being cowardly. For those people that will listen to a little reason...........................

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/france.html

I love the part in it where it talks about the french minister to England making openly anti-Jewish remarks at a London Dinner Party. Interesting. I guess the anti-Jew and anti-American feelings have branched out into all of their government. Sad. Here's the headline in two years:
HOLOCAUST, AGAIN!!!
What I really wonder, is whether American safety in france will continue, and for how long.

johnlocke--This is excerpted from your 2002 link. I see there was a lot of anti-Jewish crime. I also see that French President Chirac deplores anti-Semitism.

It is unfortunate what the French ambassador to Britain said at the dinner party in England. I wonder if he was reprimanded. But it does not appear to be representative of the French government's position based on your link.

As far as what took place during the Vichy government, the current French populace is not responsible for the actions of the Nazi collaborators. But I do note that emigration to Israel is down a little, which would possibly indicate that French Jews aren't as unhappy as they might be. Do you have anything more recent about violence against Jews in France?

And for the record, it is possible to like France and not be prejudiced against Jews.

(Edited to add: And as far as "hating America", that's really jumping to conclusions. I've lived here all my life (50 years) and I have always loved my country. But I don't like it when the leader of my country acts like an *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** to the rest of the world and considers it his prerogative to send my people into harm's way in a pre-emptive war on a non-belligerent country based on bogus intelligence information and manipulation of the American people's emotions from 9/11!) It's possible to love America and still be p.o.'d by Bush II!

No one here hates America, which is what you are obviously insinuating. In fact, we love America so much we are willing to stand up and speak against government which we feel does not represent what America stands for, so don't go questioning our patriotism.

As for your anti-semitic accusations of France, there are many anti-semites in America as well, and almost any country you can think of. While I think it is intolerable that the French government is not doing anything about the growing anti-semitism there (if that's true), that doesn't make all French people anti-semites. Unfortunately, in almost every society, all the power lies in the hands of very few, so governments can still get away with some pretty horrible things without public support (i.e. the war in Iraq).

And making unsubstantiated claims like HOLOCAUST! AGAIN!!! will make you lose credibility fast. And anyway, even if they wanted to, the French would be destroyed before they could ever think of starting another holocaust. They are French, you know.

First of all, I am not inclined to believe that Jack Shirack (for ease) is anyless anti-semetic than Daniel Bernard!!! Secondly, this year emigration to Israel is the highest it's ever been from france. And the rest of you retort seems to be nonsense based some where on the outskirts of reality, possibly. I would like to point out that our stance toward france may seem cynical, but I believe it was George Bernard Shaw that said..."The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it."

johnlocke--Please note that I edited my previous entry. And I edited it for your benefit.

It is ironic that you would characterize my writing as nonsense, especially since you like to exercise by jumping to conclusions and groundlessly accusing others of being on the "outskirts of reality" based on your own "special" observations.

The article, in fact, says nothing about this year's emigration of Jews to Israel from France. It's a 2002 article. Care to provide a link, or do you want to remain uniquely privy to that information in this forum?

In addition, for every article you can show me on prejudice against Jews, I can show you five articles on crimes perpetrated against other minorities in this country. Every person counts the same in God's eyes, but not in yours?

What I see is, even in your own link, it is reported that the leader of the country is against any sort of anti-Semitism. You'll have to do better than that to prove your case.

That's precisely what I have been praying to here you say.

Neither France or the posters at this site hate America, no matter how much you might try to throw that red herring out there for us, john.

Your links provided thus far show me nothing of France being anti-Semitic, though it appears there are many crimes committed in urban areas where Jews and Muslims are living in close proximity. This much as been detailed by your own sources. Also detailed by your own sources is the fact that France boasts the largest Jewish population in Europe and "is said to boast more kosher restaurants than any other city outside of Israel."

The remark made by the ambassador was not anti-Semitic at all. It is possible to denounce the actions and government of Israel without being anti-Semitic.

From your most recent provided link:

A 20% drop from a country that you claim is sooo anti-Semitic? It sounds like your site is almost disappointed that there isn't enough anti-Semitism to draw Jews out of France and the rest of Europe to flock to Israel. Hate crimes in a country, however, do not reduce the people or the government to anti-Semites. Were it so anti-Semitic, they'd be hard pressed to boast any significant Jewish population, much less the third largest outside of Israel itself.

Back pedalling huh? Alright. Just remember, as they said about George Washington.."The defender of the mothers will be the protector of the daughters". Soon to be heard about Bush Squared or whatever you want to call him. I notice George W. Bush doesn't name call you. What makes you think you have the right to name call him? Huh? That sounds like hating him. Hate is wrong and I've got like a million posts on this thread to prove it.

You have absolutely no foundation for such a slander, johnlocke. None. Such smearing is beneath the dignity of this forum - and beneath contempt. Your "argument" is intolerable.

And speaking of intolerable, people who believe the sort of links you provided in your first post are exactly the same sort of people who believed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. They are people who seek out propaganda, however ill-founded, to support their prejudices. Dredge up whatever you like to support your irrational hatred - the internet is full of nonsense that can support just about anything. You're changing no minds. Apparently, though, that is not your intention here. You are clearly not interested in making any kind of convincing argument to support your untenable position - otherwise you might try doing so. You seem only to be interested in abusing those who deign to disagree with your unfounded and hypocritical position - and sniggering in a corner with someone whose opinion sadly overlaps with your own in some small measure. Knock yourself out - please. But don't expect to earn any credibility or respect.


Here's another headline in two years, should haters like yourself prevail:

HOLOCAUST, AGAIN!!!
Citizens of French extraction interned in US labor camps.

What I really wonder, with people like you around, is whether French safety in America will continue, and for how long. Hatred like yours - all too similar to Nazi hatred of Jews - has never come to any good. Nor, God willing, will it ever.

I find your accusations annoying, johnlocke.

How about if you prove that you are pro-American, rather than make allegations that we who don't dislike France are anti-American?

(Edited to add: It's interested that when you quoted me, I had written that I "don't like" and am "p.o.'d" by Bush II. You mention the word "hate" in virtually every one of your entries. That's right, johnlocke, it's wrong to hate. And you're on record as saying you hate the French.)

Hey Abs,
Look when I close my eyes I can't see anything either Seriously though. That article goes in combination with the numerous sites I posted on the "hate france" thread. I'm trying not to post the same articles twice....but I used sooo many on that other thread. The articles (which you can still read) detail the systematic ignoring of Jewish complaints made to police and public officials. Also there are a few that detail how france specifically has sided with the Moslem countries agianst the US because they blame our government for the fact that until Iraq (which is gone now) they never got a good price on oil. All this and it's only one aspect of why I hate the french (gov).

Wertz,
I see that in the light of my competant and poetic frameworking, you have chosen to copy my posting, only in the style of your own. Well, I'm rather embarassed Thankyou.

Paladin,
I do love America! Do you?

Talk is cheap, johnlocke. And flag waving is, too.

Jumping to conclusions about other Americans does not make you a better American.

Paladin,
are you just trying to detract from the point that you are supporting anti-Jewish behavior by a government? You don't hate Jews do you? I'm asking.

No, I don't hate Jews, never have.
And I don't like your demagoguery, either.

You're not even talking about France anymore on this thread, are you?

Well, I won't ask you to prove it, I believe you.

Always have, always will.

edited to add: Unless they apologize.

johnlocke,

I used to work with a man who tried to persuade me that women couldn't handle the type of work that we did. I continued to train women when given the chance. He would walk by my bench at the end of the day, and dump a day's work into the trash can. I'd pick it out, and send it out to the customer anyway. When the boss was out of the shop, he went to great lengths to persuade everyone that he was an unqualified supervisor because of his race. In the end, I don't think that he changed a single person's mind, but he developed ulcers trying.

Hate by definition is a feeling, not a fact. It can therefore only be supported by prejudices and beliefs. I was raised fearing the threat of attack by the Russians, but taught that under their form of government, they had as much to fear as we did. Therefore, I was taught that I could hate Communism, and the communist threat; but that the Russian people were humans like ourselves.

I see no nuclear threat from France. I am not aware that they are building either a naval armada or an air fleet capable of threatening us. I have no recollection of grievances where the French acted in direct opposition to family, friends, or country. They chose not to ally themselves with the United States in a war we probably should not have started so rashly. They are a sovereign nation. It was within their right to make that decision.

I see no reason to hate France, but it certainly does not mean that I hate the United States. I see no reason why I would vote to re-elect George Bush in 2004, but I don't feel that makes me un-American. It merely aligns me with the majority of Americans who didn't vote for him in the last election.

Curmudg-what?
Then don't vote for him. The Republican Party doesn't need your vote or your approval. George W. bush is just about garaunteed himself a win in the next election anyway and I shall tangle with anyone who says otherwise. Seriously, and since you won't vote for him now, you won't be represented in his agenda during the next four years. Do you honestly think that I care that you voted for the guy who lost. That's not very prestigious.

Edited to add: Curmudgeon, I have seen this word somewhere else, what does it mean?

Good. You should be. I'm embarrassed every time I see our country's flag adorning one of your hate-filled posts. Hating an entire nationality because their leadership disagrees with disagreeable policies is distinctly un-American. You are as free to wrap your hatred in the flag as the French are to oppose an illegal, immoral war - but as a patriotic American citizen, I resent it.

I'm embarassed that you don't hate anything. That's a little inhuman. Oh wait, I bet you hate me. Or how will you dodge that one, "no, I hate your actions and the things you say". Gosh Wertz, I thought some good ole fashion french bashing would be fun. Don't take it so seriously. On the other hand, I do still hate their government.

Blind hatred isn't worth my time. I doubt there's any rational debate about France with you, johnlocke. You've already stated from the start of discussions about France that you were raised to hate the French and couldn't be happier. You'll interpret any piece of news however you can to try and slander the French, and that's your freedom to do so. Your sites have shown nothing to support your accusations regardless of how much you might like to think or say they do. But hate away. You can carry on your distortions and mud slinging without me.


Also: Please refrain from double posting. You can be condescending and hateful without taking up so much space.

CLOSED.

This thread is unconstructive and no one is offering anything new here that wasn't covered in the Hating France thread.

If any events occur that would warrant a new debate, we can open a thread to discuss that.

Time for a break from Anti-French threads for a bit.