Hating France has gotten way to long, and per Dontreadonme's request I have started a new thread. What are your thoughts?

CP

I voted other. I really didn't like the choices. I would say that the anti French sentiment is somewhere between justified and ridiculous, leaning more towards the ridiculous. Obviously, a person could make a fairly strong case for hating us as well. It's a matter of perception.

I think it's ridiculous... you can't blame them for what they've done, when plenty of other countries, even our own US of A, has done the same things.

Taking responsibility for one's actions is actually fairly reasonable.

Which things are you talking about?

CP

CP ,
Great topic. I personally believe that hatred for the french government as well as the french people that chose their governement is well justified. I have a flurry of reasons for this but I will try and narrow this down to four or five concise points. Mind everyone please, before I go on.....I have been to france several times in my life, so don't ask that question as others did a million times over in that last thread about france. It just makes it obvious that you're not reading whole threads, and that should embarass people.

First point: The french are practicing Anti-Semites that have learned nothing in the last eighty years. I will post one page here and if I am debated on this point, I have thousands more I can post to prove it. Many from non-secular establishments as well.

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsoc...nd_its_jews.asp

Second point: The french are anti-American. Plain and simple and proven in life in general. Just visit their "country". Here is an article about how french citizens believe 9/11 was an American Conspiracy.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/9_11/articles/911deny.htm

Third point: france has elected cowards and weasels to run their "country". I have always said Chirac was a two faced son of a gun.
Here you go. Two sources.

http://www.kconline.com/zach/archives/sadd...chiracandsaddam

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/...4725732463.html

Fourth point: The french are numbskulled politicians and businessmen that are trying to blame the US government for their own blunders and mishaps over the years. They should try and be more business saavy. If you read this all the way through it will make you laugh and you'll also see why the french hate Bush sooooo much. It's great.

http://www.brojon.org/frontpage/frenchtoast.html

I have now four points that absolutley justify french hatred. I believe the argument now is, how can liking france be justified

Edited to add: I'm having problems with one of the links....It'll be up shortly.

It's ridiculous. Just because someone wouldn't support the war that we started doesn't mean we have to hate them and kill their tourist economy.

But Chirac had to fuel it by telling the Pro-War EU Candidates that their membership was in jepordey if they participated & supported our conflict

I have no love for the french, and i will not defend them as a country or as a people. but i cannot bring myself to "Hate" them. severely dislike, yes, maybe this stems from my british roots, or perhaps their terrible track record (see earlier articles sited by johnlocke).
Now, this all depends on your definition of the word "hate", my personal definition goes along the lines of: detest something or someone enough to wish it harm. and along those lines, i cant bring myself to think of ALL france in that way.
BUT
let us be fair and accurate. the merriam- Webster definition of hate: 1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

i am not hostile to france, (mind you , i have never met a french citizen i have liked, but i am open to the possibility) but i can understand how people can feel hate (MW definition) from a sense of injury or wronging (from the anti semitism, or the conspiracy over such an important time in america). or perhaps anger for their non-commital stand on active world affairs.
I do not encourage people to blanket the French as terrible people, but i do think that disliking (or even hating using the MW definition) what france as a whole has become, can be justified.

I don't see that this thread is anything other than a chance by some posters to further voice their anti French sentiments.

Any one who wishes to so 'hate' other people, does so at the cost to their humanity, and will eventually pay the price for it.

I don't hate the French gov't because they didn't support us in the war, it is the reasons why they didn't support us that is horrible. They did it for money and their own interests.

CP

I'd just like to point out that hating French people is hating ALL french people. Which is putting them all together in one group. That is called a...


STEREOTYPE!!!

I know the French family I stayed with during the summer were all for the reformation of Iraq and, if further justified, the war on terror. Which actually differed from my opinion that the war on terror was a waste of time and money.

I'm sure that another French person hates the US. But all I'm saying is that its a DIFFERENT French person. So please don't put them all in one group. They are different people.

I'm not sure if that was directed at me or J. Locke, if me, then I have said that I hate only the current French gov't, nothing wrong with that.

CP

I am not going to "hate" the French government or their people because they do not agree with the agenda of our government. I don't agree with the agenda of our government, either.

Again, what I said was,

CP

So that makes them just like the rest of the Capitalist human race. "Me first." These days, that is why wars are waged. Let's not deceive ourselves thinking that it's because of the little guys.

Come on PE, that doesn't have much substance, nor does it pertain to the subject at hand. The fact is instead of helping other countries out, as we do, I might add, the French let us go at it and lose American soldiers' lives by ourselves, that's immoral.

CP

CP ,
Hey man, I think the responses reflected in your poll are actually responses to the question...Are you Conservative, Liberal or don't know? That seems to be the case seeing as how we have a list of several reasons why one would be justified to hate the french (gov) involving reason and logic with a steady diet of love for America and a long list of reasons why it is wrong to hate anything. I would like to remind people that read this that hate and love are strong emotions and neither are wrong to feel when justified, which CP and I most certainly are. Anyone denying these emotions is either lying or repressed. Emotion allows for passions and passions bring love AND hate. Hence there is no love without hate and so on. All the Liberal idealism in the world can't stop people from basic emotion, but denial can. So, in conclusion I would like to say that "don't hate" is not a relevent argument and I will ask this question again and please compare your answers to my earlier postings....

Why shouldn't I hate the french (gov)

CP, It has everything to do with it so long as the anti-French faction wants to try to shame the French government for doing what our government does as a matter of course.

Nobody made America go into Iraq but our leaders. The French wanted more diplomacy. We figured because ours is the superpower that we were going to "make things right" by pre-emptively attacking Iraq. Nobody else made us do it.

(edited to clarify this is a response to CP)

It was immoral for the French government not to send their troops to die alongside ours for a cause neither they or their people supported? What obligation do the French have to seeing their troops killed alongside ours? The French were not the only people to avert contributing troops, and they had no more of a monetary interest than the United States could be said to have. Repeating that they only did it for the money isn't going to make it true, CP.

Hating the French people, as BecomingHuman pointed out, is a stereotype. Hating the French government is hypocritical. I can understand disagreement with policies and actions -- even hatred for policies and actions. But to hate a group of people on the basis of scattered ideas and actions is ridiculous.

PE: They didn't want more diplomacy, that was *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***, they had interests in Iraq and did not want them challenged, what exactly did we do that was similar to that?

Abs: Hypocrisy? Please explain.

CP

CP ,
I think what Abs means by hypocritical is how America entered the war solely for oil, just like we claim the french were stalling for the same reason. One big difference. We haven't usurped the oil or any other resource. All anyone can prove at this point or at any previous point was that we ousted a horrible man from power and the french sat by croaking away rather than help a common good. It makes me sick to see even Americans fall into a belief conjured up by european marxist groups and then fed to them by the left wing American Media.

CP: The French were in agreement with the majority of the UN member nations who officially preferred extended diplomacy to the United States invading Iraq.
In WWII there were a number of US corporations (including one headed by Prescott Bush, the grandfather of George W. Bush) who conducted business with Nazi Germany even while Great Britain was at war with Germany. Now you'd better believe that they were against the United States entering the war against Germany. Did that make them hypocrites, or typical businessmen?

Whoa buddy,
easy tiger, got any proof? And please don't post anything form the ELF handbook.

Yes, including Security Counsel members, Russia and of course Germany, Russia being one of Iraq's top 3 trading partners, and Germany being top 10. So, so much for the UN.

Yes those businessmen were hypocrites, but that doesn't really matter much.

CP

Please avoid calling people names.

Sorry PE,
My apologies for the name calling.

Sorry CP, I was referring to this quote by John Locke, which is clearly putting all of France into a single category.

No problem, wasn't sure who you were talking to.

CP

Becoming,
Infact I do hate all (actually most but not all) french people but this topic is about the french gov according to CP .

johnlocke: Here is your link regarding Prescott Bush:

http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0001a/fortunateson.html

Grrrrr.....No problem. (What's an ELF handbook?)

HOW can you say that?! Have you met every single French citizen and gave them a chance? Has EVERY French citizen given you the opportunity or reason to hate them?! Hate the government! Hate their policies! But to hate an individual that hasn't done ANYTHING to you or our country DIRECTLY goes against the very thing we're opposing terrorism for: BLATANT HATRED.

johnlocke,

How many French people do you know? I realize you've been there but how many people did you meet and get to know? "I hate all French people because they don't agree with my politics." That's what you are saying. By that rationale you should hate me and any liberal in America. Do you?

That kind of hatred is ridiculous and unfounded. Yes, there are plenty of reasons to hate the government and even elected officials for their actions, but why hate people you don't even know?

You know guys, this whole world is full of hypocrites. If your reaction to someone is hatred because of their hypocrisy, who is actually controlling your emotions?

That's how propaganda works anywhere.

If I am reacting because I think something is wrong I am controlling my emotions, and there is justification for what I think is wrong, so I hate it.

CP

It. Are you saying you hate the French government? Or the people as a whole? There is a difference between hating their policies(and do remember, France IS a democracy) and hating a people. Hating a people leads to a whole nother level of intolerance....

[QUOTE=Billy Jean,Aug 1 2003, 04:28 PM] [QUOTE]
so I hate it.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]It. Are you saying you hate the French government? Or the people as a whole? There is a difference between hating their policies(and do remember, France IS a democracy) and hating a people. Hating a people leads to a whole nother level of intolerance.... [/QUOTE]

The French gov't.

CP

We've been over this before. France can no more be said to have avoided the Iraq war because of financial reasons than America can be said to have engaged only because of them. Beyond that, we had another debate before here at AD which detailed the misgivings of our country when it came to money and terrorism.

Going back to the start of this debate, I've had a chance to look through the first two links provided by johnlocke. If I might, john, I would recommend using other sites if you're trying to express to us the anti-semitism of France or convince us that all of France thinks we're responsible for September 11. They may as well have been links saying all Americans hate blacks and homosexuals or that all Americans believe Saddam Hussein was responsible for September 11.

So can't something be said about the US trying to remedy it's past errors by taking what was given to terrorist nations back? Whereas the French are hiding their mistakes by not going to war.

CP

Getting kind of heated here....
I know more than a few amateur historians who have no respect for the French, people or government, just based on the events of the last century, prior to the Iraq issue. But hatred is not what they feel. Probably, this post would have been better if some word other than hate had been used?
Hatred of a people is never justified, for their actions maybe, but not for the people.

Seriously folks, it is irrelevent how much I hate the french and specifically who, but I will tell you this, it is not your job to tell other people who they can like or dislike. Most of my loud trumpeting comes from a playful dislike, but yes I hate the french government. So litigate that elsewhere. Please answer me this.....from my earlier posting on exactly why I hate the french government, can anyone give me reasons why I should like the french governemnt? Please tell me and put me in my place.

CP ,
Do you see this tactic, they all try and turn the subject around as if we were the anti-American, anti-Semetic aggressors.

Don't lump me into that category! I was just concerned for your hatred of the French people, I could care less if you disliked their government!

This is so ridiculous, why is it OK to discuss the hatred of France, could this not be construed as racism? But here I go proving that hating France is totally asinine, even though it seems some people will continue hating the French regardless of what evidence proves them wrong.

JohnLocke, your articles are really nothing more than the opinions of the journalists that wrote them. I would say that the French are more anti-arab (and when you really think about, both arabs and jews are of semetic origins), than anti-jew, and I wouldnt even say that . The French government is addressing the issue of racist violence, what else do you want them to do? Throw the jews in a pen with armed guards? Let's face it, there is nothing showing that the government OR the people are advocating any anti-jew behaviour. And France isnt the only place that is experiencing a rise in anti-jew violence, so I think its hardly a reason to hate them. From the article that you linked to:



Does that mean we should start hating the US government too?

The article about the French thinking that 9-11 is a conspiracy doesnt even state that the majority of French think so. It refers more to Muslim countries, offering stats like this:



Wheres the stats that the French majority that thinks that 9-11 didnt happen? Just because ONE book is a bestseller (which I cant seem to find on amazon.com OR amazon.fr) hardly means that all the French think 9-11 is a conspiracy. 210,000 copies sold out of a population of 60 million hardly constitutes a majority.

One of your links I was unable to get to. But for for the next one (as I am going in order) with unfounded like gems like this:



Im not sure how you can even believe that. Where is the documentation that the French state is owed immense sums of money by Iraq?

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cf...fm?ItemID=14912
While its a cartoon, I think the point will come across rather quickly. Why is it Chirac is a rat for supposedly dealing with Hussein, while the US are heros for dealing with Hussein then destroying his country?

As for the last, I dont have the time to find information on it. Ill get to it later.



These are the same reasons we went to war with Iraq, why is it OK for us and not for them? A direct quote from DeVillepin, from Le Monde 16-17th February 2003 (I saved the paper, this is not off the internet and its in French. I am going to post the French quote and then translate, you'll have to trust me)



Which means, "10 days ago the american Secretary of State, Mr. Powell, stated the supposed ties between Al-Queda and regime in Bagdad. According to ur information and research lead in collaboration with our allies, nothing permits us to establish such ties. On the other hand, we must measure the impact that this plan of military action would have in reality. Wont it risk to aggravate the fracture between societies, cultures, people which nourish itself with terrorism?"

Theres more like that, but I dont have time right now. If no one thinks the quotes that I post from Le Monde are fair or correct, then tell me and I will go with different sources of information

Umm, we're not Iraq's second most important trade partner, France is, I fail to see how we have any interests that we need securing.

CP

Let's see, George W. Bush is an oil man, Dick Cheney is an oil man. Can you think of any reason they might be interested in that part of the world???

I'm going to edit this to say something about France and therefore keep it appropriate to this thread.

Personal prejudices against the French are your choice. My mother disliked French Canadians when she worked with them because they were always speaking French around her, which excluded her from the conversations at their work place in Hull, Quebec. I can understand that.

To accuse a national government of hypocrisy and use that as your stated reason for disliking them is disingenuous. Case in point: we were presumably invading Iraq, after the WMDs were not found, to FREE their people from tyranny. We can't tell who our friends are from our enemies there at this time, but we're there to keep the peace.

In Liberia, a non oil-rich country, people are being slaughtered, much of it having to do with, once again, a repressive regime that does not represent the people. Why don't we intervene? The stated reason I heard was we would not be able to tell the factions apart. This is after the United States was officially asked to step in.

We can't consistently tell our friends from our enemies in Iraq, but that doesn't stop us from trying to keep the peace there. But we don't know our friends from our enemies in Liberia, and that stops us from intervening. There is no oil interest in Liberia.

Is the US government hypocritical in its international dealings? You betcha. Like France? You betcha. And several other instances can be cited, if necessary.

If you want to base this solely around events in Iraq, Cp, we are by some estimates worse than how you perceive the French. We not only profited from building Iraq up and sustaining Hussein's regime, but ensured we were the ones around to profit off its destruction.



I don't think anybody is saying you can or can't dislike a person, government, policy or action. That isn't, however, to say we can't point out how ridiculous such general hatred appears to be.

Here is an indication of how far this has gone.
Go to Google, type in French Military Victories, then select the feeling lucky button.

The coalition of the willing is in Iraq too, what are you talking about?

So, they used to be oil men, now they're pres. and VP, we still aren't one of Iraq's main trade partners, care to respond to that particular fact.

How is disliking a gov't for doing somehting immoral disingenuous?

And we're going to step in, so I guess we're not in it for the oil, right? I guess Afghanistan was for the oil to. Right?

And besides all of this, as JohnLocke has said, no one is telling me why I shouldn't hate the French gov't, you guys are just attacking America, so again, why shouldn't I hate the French gov't?

CP

Your freedom to hate the French is the same freedom you are exercising to be hypocritical, Conservpat. We are not attacking America but identifying the similarities and comparisons you appear to be blind to. Please forgive us for seeking to make obvious what you choose to blatantly ignore. How silly of us.



And the Coalition has been invited to bid on Iraqi contracts how many times? They have received how many contracts to rebuild Iraq despite not having been invited? Oh, that's right. Only those companies with interests within the administration are receiving preferential treatment -- among them Halliburton, who has now profited both off the support and destruction of Iraq.

Again, the French had no more a financial interest in abstaining from the war effort than we did in inciting it. I have seen nothing substantive indicating French wrong doing. Have you, Conservpat? On the other hand we here in the United States appear to have lost a great deal of credibility over the whole fiasco, with no sign of redemption yet in sight.

But we can do no wrong in the United States. We are the immaculate protector of the free world. Disagree with us and we'll point out what we feel are glaring flaws in your society while turning a perpetual blind eye to our identical problems here at home.

Hate the French all you like, Conservpat. And while you're at it, make sure you let that kettle know it's black too.

For the first quote: I don't see how, on the virtue of being president, you can suddenly change from being an oil man to an unbiased person completely in favor of morals and ethics. But furthermore, if you think that we arent going to suck oil from Iraq, well, thats just being niave.

As for Libera, we arent stepping in at all with the same amount of effort as we were in Iraq. Even according to Bush, we arent going to be the main peace keepers as we are in Iraq. Its funny how we had to stretch an explanation to enter Iraq (In Order to free the people and to stop and oppresive government, right?). But to the liberian people, who ASKED us to come and help when they were being fired on, we more or less pay them lip service and Say: "Do it yourself." You cannot argue at all that we are paying equal attention to Iraq and Liberia, thats just FALSE.

Good, you got my point BecomingHuman!



"Going to step in" is the operant phrase. The French have been in there already, trying to help out. BecomingHuman is right.

Once again, which nation appears to be more motivated by profits?

To Paladin Elspeth



I dont see any evidence of the US tapping Iraq's oil for its own benefits yet. No I dont watch FOX News all day, I pay attention to what's going on there and I havent seen proof of your allegations. I actually wish we could get some of their oil to pay for the costs of both the war and the peace.



I'm glad we're taking our time. I feel sorry for the people dying in Liberia but we must be very careful before getting ourselves into that mess, I'd much prefer letting the West African forces go in first.



Sure we can, our friends are anyone who's not loyal to Saddam or anyone who's not a terrorist. We may have trouble rooting them out, but Liberia is different. We have both sides saying they want us in, yet they are both shooting at each other and we're not sure if they will shoot at us too. What stops us from intervening is that Iraq was not racked by civil war and anarchy, but Liberia is. Intervening in a civil war must be carefully thought out or we'll find ourselves in a bloodbath

To Abs like Jesus


I know we supported Hussein in the past, and Im not proud of our government for it. But when you sit Saddam next to the Ayotollah, you have to pick the lesser of two evils. Furthermore, we are trying to correct our mistake where as the French refuse to.



Yes, US companies like Halliburton will be in Iraq, but they don't reap oil benefits. They just get paid for the rehabilitation of the oil fields. The Iraqi people get the oil benefits. US companies are there because they are professionals, and you don't fix your plumbing if you don't know how, you get a plumber to do it.

To BecomingHuman



I'm not necessarily referring to you, but the same democrats saying that we didn't have a plan in Iraq are now pushing us to go into Liberia without a plan. We CANT go in until the main peacekeeping force, the West Africans, go in, otherwise it will be a disaster. And yes, we are going in. We have 2000 peacekeepers off the coast and the UN just approved international intervention in the country.




I don't hate the French, I've been to Paris twice and I love it there. I just don't like Chirac for his actions

Take care all!!!