There are so many debateable aspects to this issue. Crime, jobs, terrorism, votes, social services to name just a few. But it seems that the issue stays below the radar in national debate, and here as well. Why?

To start off what I hope will be a very broad debate on this issue I simply ask, 'why do we do so very little to address this issue?'.

Good question, this is where Bush has me a little annoyed, he needs to focus on our boarders too. There are way too many illeagal immigrants coming into our country and taking advantage of our country ILLEAGALLY.

CP

Illegal immigration is just what is says- illegal, and should be enforced as strictly as any other threat to America's stability. I am all for LEGAL immigration, I am married to one and related to several, but Illegal immigration is a crime, and they should be treated like criminals.

Because neither party wants to anger the growing hispanic voting group.

This is a topic that has been on my mind for a long time. Why are "we"
so lackadaisical when it comes to enforcing our immigration policies?
As a resident of southern California, I can offer two possible explanations.
First, the illegal Mexican immigrants consume a lot, and that boosts the economy. Also, businesses needs cheap labor, and they are providing that. They are obviously filling some needs, or they wouldn't be allowed in.

Is the correct term "need", or "want"?

When Bush announced he was granting amnesty to illegals, I fell completely off the Bush bandwagon. That was the biggest sellout move anybody could have made in my opinion (like all illegals are Mexicans - and no Arabs).

But the justification is the "need" for migrant workers to work those lower paying jobs. Why are they lower paying? Because they can pay low? Maybe if business didn't have an endless resource of cheap labor, they could figure out a way to make a profit with legitimate labor.

Our unemployment rate is actually over 10%. They claim just under 7%, but they are not counting the ones who have been out of work so long, they're not part of the job market anymore. still, we're sending jobs out all over the world and letting illegals take the ones left. This seems preposterous to me and I'm stunned this Administration is not doing anything about it.

Any proof?

I get tired of this idea that illegal immigrants are taking advantage of the opportunities supplied to them in America. Like the opportunity to get paid dirt cheap under the table to pick strawberries for only 1 season out of the year? It's not like there's an illegal immigrant who says, "Oh yeah I'm only working in computers till something in produce comes along." Bottom line, we're doing nothing to help Mexico out of its poverty. In fact, we're exploiting it by employing hard-working illegal immigrants to do the work no American citizen would want to do, and for pay which no citizen would accept. Do you like paying a dollar for a head of lettuce? Because if it weren't for illegal immigrants working in the fields that lettuce would be at least twice as expensive. We rely on illegal immigration to keep produce costs down.

And there is no way to keep all the immigrants from coming across the border. No matter how much money we spend on walls or fences or tighter security, people will still find a way to get across. If you want to stop illegal immigrants from coming from Mexico, then solve the problem at its root. If Bush is so big on humanitarian aid and maximizing the good for the U.S., why doesn't he help Mexico and quit giving Mexicans a reason to leave. Two birds with one stone. Start giving them fair trade contracts (not the so-called free trade we have now), and stop the corporations from exploiting Mexican laborers (in the U.S. and Mexico). That would mean higher prices for a lot of products, but hey, it's better than a bunch of poor immigrants taking our opportunities in field labor.

This is probably one of the few policies of Bush's that i have to disagree with. Letting Illegals come into America and his policy of legalizing illegals is kinda making the fight in the War on Terror weak because these illegals could be al-queda members coming into the U.S. to start a cell and cause another 9/11 attack.

I think he ignores this because he probably figures cheap labor means better profit reports for companies which means good looks for his poll numbers in the economic sector

No, they take advantage of: Welfare, social security, and jobs that people here legaly should have the opportunity to get. Also, most terrorists get here by ways of illeagaly enterance.

CP

Who says no american citizen wants to work low paying jobs? Not the american citizens that are out of work, that's for sure.

I'd love to see a poll on unemployed american citizens asking if they'd accept a low paying job or would they rather have no income at all. Low paying jobs are not career jobs, they have high turnover rates, that's why they're low paying. Any employer offering these jobs does not expect to have a 10 year anniversary party for any of their employees. Low paying jobs are for people that need a stepping stone, a place they can get some income while looking around for better work or to go to school.

I didn't realize it was our responsiblity to support what apparantly has become the United States Of Mexico.

I am a bit ignorant to how welfare and social security works; but how can they apply for these if they come over illegally? If they can though, I ultimately agree that they shouldn't suck the system dry as opposed to an american citizen.

But most of the jobs the illegal immigrants take are mundane ones. They also get payed below minimum wage; obviously because they can't sue whoever is paying them.

One way is for a pregnant woman to come across and give birth in the US. The child is then an American citizen, and the family can apply for assistance. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here)

You are correct. It involves a lot of bureacratic INS paperwork (red tape) but yeah, you are right. The same with, for example, a United States ship rescues cubans off a life boat and one of them gives birth on the U.S. ship, then technically, they are on U.S. "soil" so the child is an American citizen automatically

When my wife was in jail(long story, sigh), one of the ladies there was there for bringing illegals into the country. She got paid one thousand dollars per person. Another service she offered was a social security number, which is how they are able to apply for welfare and other programs.

Illegals shouldn't be allowed to exploit our social security and welfare. I think it's ridiculous that just because you are born in the U.S. you become a citizen. One of the parents should have to be a citizen already.

What I'm saying is that without illegal immigration, our economy would be a lot different (and worse). Right now is not the time to kick out a bunch of people who are supporting our minimal economy. Bush had to keep the illegals here so that he could finance the programs he thinks are more important, namely the War on Terror.

And, DR, unfortunately Mexico has become, economically, a part of the U.S. NAFTA has seen to that.

So, it's up to us to support Canada then? Or any other entity related to North America? Is that what NAFTA is?

Canada doesn't need our help.

What I'm saying is if we helped Mexico out a little more and quit exploiting them (by the rules of NAFTA), there would be no more illegal immigration problem. That's all.

I think 9/11 necessitates that we get very tough border policies, thorough monitoring of our ports, and that we do what we've needed to do for a long time now anyway, and shed our oversensitivities about rejecting freeloaders and criminals from abroad. If they immigrate legally, fine, open arms, yadda, yadda, yadda, but I think our first priority should be our own security, then their lives and safe return, and then, how to spend an absolute minimum of our own money doing it.

This is not exactly a new concept. It dates back to the birth of the nation. Article II Section I of the U.S. Constitution, outlining the qualifications for President states in part:
The Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution further clarifies that anyone born in the United States is a citizen, stating in part:

Here are some immigration facts:

Immigrants in the United States - 2002
A Snapshot of America's Foreign-Born Population

November 2002

By Steven A. Camarota

Download the .pdf version

Read the panel discussion transcript


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies of the Current Population Survey (CPS) collected in March of this year by the Census Bureau indicates that 33.1 million immigrants (legal and illegal) live in the United States, an increase of two million just since the last Census. The March CPS includes an extra-large sample of minorities and is considered one of the best sources for information on persons born outside of the United States — referred to as foreign-born by the Census Bureau.1 For the purposes of this report, foreign-born and immigrant are used synonymously.2 The questions asked in the CPS are much more extensive than those in the decennial census, and therefore it can be used to provide a detailed picture of the nation’s population, including information about welfare use, health insurance coverage, poverty rates, entrepreneurship, and many other characteristics. The purpose of this Backgrounder is to examine immigration’s impact on the United States so as to better inform the debate over what kind of immigration policy should be adopted in the future.


Among the reports findings:


There is no evidence that the economic slowdown that began in 2000 or the terrorist attacks in 2001 have significantly slowed the rate of immigration. More than 3.3 million legal and illegal immigrants have entered the country since January of 2000.


By historical standards, the 33.1 million immigrants living in the United States is unprecedented. Even at the peak of the great wave of immigration in the early 20th century, the number of immigrants living in the United States was only 40 percent of what it is today (13.5 million in 1910).


Immigrants account for 11.5 percent of the total population, the highest percentage in 70 years. If current trends continue, by the end of this decade the immigrant share of the total population will surpass the all time high of 14.8 percent reached in 1890.


Immigration has become the determinate factor in population growth. The arrival of 1.5 million immigrants each year, coupled with 750,000 births to immigrant women annually, means that immigration policy is adding over two million people to the U.S. population each year, accounting for at least two-thirds of U.S. population growth.


Although immigration has a very large effect on the overall size of the U.S. population, it has a much more modest effect on the age structure in the United States. The nearly 16 million immigrants who arrived in the United States since 1990 have lowered the average age in the United States by only four months.


The percentage of immigrants without a high school diploma is 30 percent, more than 3.5 times the rate for natives. Since 1990, immigration has increased the number of high school dropouts in the labor force by 21 percent, while increasing the supply of all other workers by 5 percent.


The poverty rate for immigrants and their U.S.-born children (under 18) is two-thirds higher than that of natives and their children, 17.6 percent versus 10.6 percent. Immigrants and their minor children now account for almost one in four persons living in poverty.


The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 24.5 percent compared to 16.3 percent for native households.


One-third of immigrants do not have health insurance — 2.5 times the rate for natives. Immigrants who arrived after 1989 and their U.S.-born children account for 95 percent (7.5 million) of the 7.8 million increase in the size the uninsured population since 1989.




Immigration accounts for virtually all of the national increase in public school enrollment over the last two decades. In 2002, there were 9.7 million school-age children from immigrant families in the United States.


In 2002, 39.2 percent of immigrants 18 and older were citizens and they comprised 6 percent of all eligible voters.


Immigrants and natives exhibit remarkably similar rates of entrepreneurship, with about 1 in 10 being self employed.

Because the CPS is primarily designed to gather data on people in the workforce, it does not include those living in "group quarters," such as prisons and nursing homes. However, it is possible to arrive at a total immigrant population of 33.1 million simply by adding the roughly 600,000 immigrants found to be living in institutions by the preliminary 2000 Census results to the 32.5 million immigrants in the CPS.3

Because all children born in the United States to immigrants are by definition natives, the sole reason for the dramatic increase in the immigrant population is new immigration. While some immigrants die and others return home, the issuance of 800,000 to one million permanent residency visas annually and the settlement of hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens each year greatly exceeds deaths and out-migration. The immigrant population in the CPS includes perhaps eight to nine million illegal aliens and 900,000 persons on long-term temporary visas, such as students and temporary workers.

In any discussion of immigration’s effect on the country it is important to keep in mind that the number of legal immigrants allowed in each year, the selection criteria used, and the level of resources devoted to controlling illegal immigration are all discretionary policies of the federal government. Thus the numbers discussed in this report represent a policy choice, one that does not have to continue into the indefinite future. It is also important to note that given the sampling and non-sampling error that exists in any survey, the results in this Backgrounder for states and immigrant groups with relatively small populations should be interpreted with caution


The low educational attainment and resulting low wages of many immigrants are the primary reasons so many live in poverty, use welfare, and lack health insurance, not their legal status or an unwillingness to work.


This last statement is interesting to me.

However, illegal is still illegal, and it should be enforced!

CruisingRam - please provide a link to the document. If your article is a copywrited material, please cite only small portions of it and do not post it here in its entirety. We can not afford to be sued. Thanks!

Sorry, I have tried several times to upload that link, I always get them off of askjeeves, and they just don't link for me, I don't know why, That is why I posted the author. Any suggestions?

I can't really add to much to the subject, but the Toronto Star recently published an (edited) editorial from a conservative American journalist/economist in which he asserts that open immigration and a population that reflects such policy is one of the reasons why the Canadian economy has fared much better in the last three years than it's NAFTA counterparts. I'll dig it out of the recycling pile tomorrow if I remember.

Still, it begs the question; should America be clamping down on illegal immigrants, or working to let them in legally?

Legalizing illegals is something all first world nations do occasionally, first because they have no way to find and kick them all out, and secondly because it creates more working taxpaying citizenry, also voters, and Bush really wanted those hispanic votes.

NAFTA has worked well for American companies in Mexico also, just go see all the Blockbusters, Pizza Huts etc. Much better than it has for Mexican companies in the US.

I dont know anyone in our culture, not even a damn student who wants to pick strawberries or anything of the sort. As a photographer I once went and saw what temporary immigrant workers go through, its right out of 'The Grapes of Wrath'
Ive also wondered what would happen to the California restaurant business if we didnt have low paid Mexican workers, visited a kitchen lately?

I would like everyone to be decently paid, legal, and hopefully get our own (born here) youth back to knowing what it is to work for a living, if they would even bother, but Im thinking we may have gone too far already.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Now American companies can exploit Mexicans in their own country. And who gets those profits? The U.S. and not Mexico. We provide low paying jobs and keep all the profit.

This is long but theres a lot of valid points to it, i wouldn't spend the time typing it if i didn't feel it was worth reading!!!

The INS does have ways of tracking illegal immigrants (not completely, however, they can find large amounts of them at a time). I can see to a certian extent occasionally - every 10 years or so - giving illegals green cards for tax purposes only! The fact of the matter is that the only think illegals contribute to the economy is underpaid work primarily in the fields and the little bit they pay in tax on clothing, beer, and smokes. I live in Fresno CA where we have one of the largest population of illegal immigrants. What blows my mind is the fact that new laws give illegal immigrants drivers licenses WITHOUT a background check. The governor (who i believe signed the bill to save his own *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** from the recall) states that the bill was signed to give the licenses to the illegals so they have transportation to work, after all they drive anyways so we might as well make it legal. Where I find this to be profoundly stupid is in the statement "they drive anyways" which shows that not only are they here illegally but their driving without licenses and without a license they have no insurance - 1 federal law and 2 state laws are being broken right there. So instead of punishing them they just give them a license, how stupid is that? You have to look at it like this, their here illegal, driving illegally, so what in their right minds do they think that just because they now have a drivers license they will get insurance, especially when you take into consideration the fact that their working at dirt cheep prices. Common sense would tell you that not only can they not pay the high insurance prices but if they do get their drivers license revoked for not having insurance then all of a sudden "Jose Gonzales" will become "Jose Garcia" the next day with a brand new drivers license again... after all there is no background check to make them prove who they are and lord knows their here illegal so they don't have a social security number unless they obtain that illegal too, or perhaps the government might just start giving them out too!!! For the life of me I can not find any reason for the DMV to be printing out drivers manuals for every language except ebonics (since theres no written language for ebonics), THIS IS BY LAW AND ENGLISH ONLY COUNTRY... its not our job to cater to everyone else if they want to be here. How are you going to communicate with someone who doesn't speak english for a minor accident that doesn't involve the police? Are we expected to hire our own private interpreter to "shadow" us incase theres and accident?

California is about to pass a new law allowing illegal immigrants to apply for financial aid for college just so long as they have atleast 3 years of highschool and have graduated - THEIR ILLEGAL, HOW IN THE HELL ARE THEY GETTING INTO SCHOOLS FOR FREE THATS BEING PAID BY THE PUBLIC FOR THEIR OWN CHILDREN, NOT MEXICO, NOT AFGHANISTANS, ETC...

I would really like to know how INS can just stand by and allow california to pass laws that basically promote "its ok to be illegal, we'll help you out in any way possible, even if you are violating federal law."


To comment on the part of people in our culture that wouldn't want to pick strawberries... My wife and I have both picked grapes at 20 cents per tray, on an average day our take home was about $15 working from sun up to sun down. Most illegals get paid more than that, however we were broke and desperately needed money so instead of living off of the system we took our responsibilities upon ourselves and worked our *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** of for what we have today.... which for being married with 8 animals and a house in the city at 21 years old isn't too shabby!!! We had more pride in ourselves making $15/day than we would living off of the system, so YES there are people that are willing to work for next to nothing to get where they have to go. Its not a career but it is a stepping stone that if needed will be taken!!!.... back to the subject, State law says that anyone, including illegal immigrants, is entitled to atleast minimum wage and with all of the laws that are being passed farmers are going to have to start dishing out minimum wage, even to these illegals that "do the work no one else is willing to do." illegal immigrants are not afraid to sue, and the courts have to accept the cases (even though these illegals aren't paying taxes to be able to do so), not too long ago about 20 illegals sued a farmer for not paying them minimum wage. Heres what i think, get rid of the illegals, if they want to be here so bad then either let them go through the proper procedures to do so or let them straighten up their own country!!! If you get rid of them unemployment will go down drastically, more tax will be paid (solving the national and state debts), and yes, produce will double but i'm willing to pay the extra 50 cents if it means that the US will be a better more secure place to live!!!

Heres something to think about, illegals come into the country (we'll use mexicans for an example), have a baby, get citizenship for it (the baby and themselves), make money, send the money back to their relatives in mexico to come here to live too.... how do you suppose their relatives come into here.... do you think they, the relatives, take proper procedures to get here (which usually takes up to a year), or do you think they do it the way that has been proven to work and only takes at most 9 months (by being illegal and having a baby which makes them legal)???

I think the biggest pisser for me personally with the illegal immigration issue is how hard it is for legal aliens that have the conscious to do it right. I wanted my cousin-in-law to come over here and get a year of American high school for some experiance in his native Russia. They wanted 8000 dollars a year for him to go to school here. If he was Mexican and illegal, he could have gone to school for free, no questions asked or allowed to ask.

It took some serious hoops for my wife to jump through for her green card when she married me, then 31/2 years to get her citizenship, with 2 interviews and 3 "check-in" interviews in between.

I am in total support of a generous quota for legal immigrints, heck 100,000 a day from all over the world if they can show proof of secondary education and 35,000 in the bank will make this countries economy rock and roll big time!

In askjeeves, there's a small "Remove Frame" link at the top right when you're at the site you want to be. Click that and you'll have the real address in your address bar.

I completely agree with everything iibcd says how can you give drivers license then free college classes and expect people that are rightfully here either naturally born here or went thru the proper channels to get to the United States. What we call people that come into the United States>>>>Illegal Aliens!!!!! Hmm, tell me does that not sound like an oxymoron to let someone here illegally be able to use our system the same way legal United States citizen can and are under law required to?