The idea for this thread was sparked by a post from Tobyn, on the Adultery, is it a sin? forum.

I have been in situations (too often, unfortunately) in which I had knowledge of extramarital infidelity. I am curious what the general consensus is on this issue. Does a friend have a responsibility to tell the wronged party, or is it none of their business?

I'd have to do a play on words of your signature Mrs. Pigpen and ask, "If it IS broke, how are you going to fix it?"

Not by telling someone they're being cheated on.

Nobody really knows how somebody else's relationship really works. Do they have an open marriage where an outside fling every now and then is permitted or at least tolerated? Is it a relationship where it is sexless? Perhaps the spouse that is being "cheated" on can not or will not engage in sex.

Does the other person really want to know this or do you only think they should? Knowledge is power and ignorance is bliss, but is this kind of knowledge going to help or hurt the person you're concerned about? How will they take this revelation? Will they be grateful or resentful that you told them? What are your motives? To be helpful and informative or to be nosy and vindictive?

What impact will it have on YOUR relationship with that person?

There are a lot of GOOD reasons to tell someone that the other person in their relationship is untrue, but there are a lot of BAD reasons that rule in favor of keeping it to yourself.

This is easy.

"Act only on that maxim through which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." - Immanuel Kant

Now, the "how" you act in this case is, by the very nature of Categorical Imperative, limited. I'll hazard a guess here that most cuckolds would, when choosing between crappy alternatives, prefer to find out about their spouse's infidelity from the spouse, not from a third party or by accident. The fact that their alternatives for finding out are crappy doesn't alter the fact that most also would prefer to know. Ergo, the preferred choice is to bring about a situation wherein the cheating spouse fesses up, next would be telling the spouse yourself.

You go to the cheater(s) and inform them that in X days (a small #) you will be discussing their infidelity with their spouse(s). It is up to the cheater to decide whether to inform the spouse, or wait for you to do it. Then you simply wait and tell.

If, as Nighttimer speculates, its an open marriage or some other deviant arrangement, then the cuckolded spouse won't be bothered, so his concerns are neutralized. If fear over the damage telling will do to your relationship is your primary concern, then, while understandable, selfishness is a lousy moral guide.

Ignorance may be bliss, but as any recovering heroin junkie will tell you, bliss ain't always good.

I dont think a deviant relationship is a good way to look at it. If i choose along with my partner to have an open relationship or whatever you want to call it, that would be my/our way to go. I dont think anybody likes to be lied to about much anything. The content of shareing your life with someone makes it that much worse. I always prefered to know about something like this then live in the dark about it. For me it was also always better to here from the partner rather then the grapevine.

I voted other.
I would ask the cheater if his/her spouse is aware of it. If so, let it go.
If not, ask yourself if you want to remain friends with that kind of person.
It is not a moral issue as much as I am not comfortable being around the type of persons who have so little respect for their own spouse's feelings.
If you love someone, you don't do things that will hurt them.

I voted other because I think this is a total judgement call. This is life altering information. Some soul searching is needed to \know that if you are going to tell your friend you know why you are doing it and what the impact will be.

I would tell my best friends almost every time as long as I got up the nerve.
I would also ask myself what my friend will think of me when he or she finds out that I knew about it.

Friends I don't know as well I would probably feel out the spouse and try to let them know that I know.

It would be magnanimous to go to the cheating spouse and tell them that if they don't come clean then you will.

I do however think some spouses would be happier not knowing. But I would rather know and I would want me friends to know that they could come talk to me about tough topics and still have a friend.

So in conclusion, I don't know.

I think the best way to asnwer this question is to try to put myself in the shoes of the one who was cheated on. I know I wouldn't want to hear it from anyone other than my spouse...not only would it seem like I was the last to know, but it would make it that much worse because my spouse couldn't come clean, not to mention the fact that I would always have doubts, questions, suspcions of motive if someone else told me (my husband happens to be liked by everyone he meets, so it would not be at all odd to envision someone jealous of our relationship trying to damage it in that manner).

That said, what I would do is tell the cheater that I know about the cheating. It is up to the cheater at that point. Most likely, the cheated on spouse WILL find out eventually (at least I'd imagine so) and your "butting in" would serve little purpose other than to anger both parties.

If it was truly cheating (ie: not an open marriage/relationship) I would definitely tell, and have told, the "victim."

When I started dating my other half I had two friends who were dating. I had known that "The Boyfriend" was pressuring "The Girlfriend" (then a virgin) for sex. That's when I started getting love notes from "The Boyfriend."

I was furious not only for my friend (The Girlfriend) but also because it was a complete affront to my character. I immediately contacted the girlfriend and gave her the notes. She didn't believe me, but my conscious was cleansed and I haven't talked to The Boyfriend since.

I guess it's just my possessiveness talking, but I'd equate not informing the spouse/partner of the cheater along the lines of not reporting a crime that you've witnessed... Also, if I found out my other half was cheating on me and I had friends who knew about it, you can bet they wouldn't hold that esteem for long.

I would give the cheating spouse the opportunity to come clean and if they refused, I absolutely would inform their partner. If they choose to have an open relationship, that's fine, but one side hiding it from the other isn't an open relationship, it's a lie and lies in relationships are always a bad thing.

I couldn't consider myself a friend to either of them if I just kept my mouth shut.

I'm not sure whether it would be easier for me to hear it from my spouse or someone else. I don't think I'd be able to work through how I felt about everything if my spouse is still right in front of me (perhaps asking for forgiveness) and I am still trying to just get over the shock of the betrayal.

I feel it might be easier to hear it from a friend where I could cry and rage without having to get bogged down in my partner's feelings about the matter at the same time. It would just be less to deal with at once.

(NOTE: the situation that sparked this topic is between couples that do not have open marriages, at least not that I've ever been aware of)

Like most posters, I'm not sure about this one. Each course of action would depend on the situation and people...I think there are a couple of primary variables to consider.

1)It's difficult to know for absolute certain. I once had a girls-night-out in Venice with other married friends. Two of them decided to go home with Fabio and Aurellio (two Italians they had just met) for late night coffee. They came back to the hotel room at noon the next day, but didn't actually confess to anything..Needless to say, I ceased casual relations with those two friends.

Short of a direct admission or some sort of hard evidence (which would pretty much be catching them in the act), how to be sure?

2)Is it a relationship or one-night stand?
In the case of an obvious frivolous extramarital sex life, I usually conclude that there is either some understanding between the couple or one actively chooses to be blind. I also break off casual relations with those friends, but I have never told the spouse.

In the case of a relationship, things can get pretty tricky. There is usually a tremendous amount of subterfuge on the part of the cheater. I think the best course of action would be to confront the adulterer directly. Usually, that provides the needed catalyst for a situation in which one party was being deceived and the other would be happy to maintain the status quo and continue the deception indefinitely.

I have never confronted the wronged spouse directly. For me personally, that would be a tremendous deception. I believe that marriages more often survive after infidelity if the adulterer comes forward his/herself. Finding out from a third party (or on one's own through pieced-together evidence) is liable to doom the marriage. There is no true closure when the wronged spouse is placed in that sort of position, and no reason to believe that the deceiver would have ever come forward with the truth. Even worse, there is always the underlying impression that everyone except the deceived spouse knew.

there are a couple questions which come to my mind here and would effect my decision...
1. is this a repeated occurence
2. does the spouse have suspicions already
...

I'm going to go ahead and vote "other"

This is definitely a question where one answer does not fit all circumstances. I believe in many cases the spouse knows and is dealing with it in his/her own way.

[COLOR=green]It's right to tell the spouse, if they are not already aware, that their partner is unfaithful. How can you be a supportive friend if you are unwilling to go the distance and be honest even when it's tough? Not making them aware of a problem will probably make them feel more hurt later.

A friend tells a friend the truth, whether they want to hear it or not, because the basis of friendship is trust and respect.
I would try to get the unfaithful person to 'fess up or I would tell the other person.
Ugly truth is ultimately better than a pretty lie.

Yes, without hesitation.

To me, this falls under extreme moral obligation. I despise cheating, it's lined into my moral fabric. I've also been cheated on and it is quite possibly the worst thing you'll ever go through, that being said, it needs to be known. You need to know that the person that is supposed to care for you actually doesn't. It's not just the sexual part, it's the lying, it's the lack of respect, and most importantly, you cannot truly care for someone and cheat on them. If you want to have something on the side, you need to divorce, separate, break-up, whatever first.

Why let it go? If the spouse is aware of it, then there's no reason to keep the subject off-limits in discussions with the spouse. Unless, of course, the cheater lied to you.

naaaaahhhh, that would never happen.

If not, ask yourself if you are that kind of person. Birds of a feather and all that...

As someone who has actually been in this situation, and elected to tell, I'd say that the right thing depends very much on the details and usually favors silence. Relationships are very complex things, and there are many ways people in such a volatile situation can get hurt. What if the cuckolded spouse is abusive? What if they're unfaithful themselves, but better at hiding it, and could take advantage of the information asymmetry to get the house...or the kids? Forcing the issue is like pushing both people into a minefield. Maybe it would salve your conscience, but it's not exactly doing them any favors. Even if they survive it's likely to be painful, and nobody has the right to put someone else through that even if it's for their own good. It's their marriage, and their decision. By all means, encourage the cheater to stop or at least come clean, but don't presume to second-guess someone who's more directly/deeply affected and has more complete information.

If a friend knows about it, he/she should tell the wronged spouse because they would hate you for not telling them if they find out that you knew and didn't tell.

I voted not to tell.
There are too many unknowns. Possibly the couple has a dont ask dont tell unspoken agreement. I have had these type of relationships. If a freind comes and tells me something of the sort then, I would ask why they are not attending to their own house and checking up on their own husband/wife.

Maybe they love each other and will spend the rest of their lives together but for internal reasons are not having intimate relations so one partner must look elsewhere for exclusively this purpose, not intending to ever leave the other. What happens then if You stick your big fat nose in it.

For the most part I believe that these things are nobodies business except the two people involved. Noone really knows everything thats going on in someone elses relationship, people put up facades for others.
The person being cheated on may be looking the other way and waiting for it to settle itself ( there are many reasons one might be doing so) the shame of finding out that others know might force action which might otherwise not have happened. Telling could entail breaking marriages and involve children. I dont want that responsability.

Peering into others bedrooms and private lives and making decisions for them based on ones own morality is an ugly thing to do and very wrong. Im sure there is some closet cleaning most people can do right in their own home if examined carefully. I think more people should spend a lot more time minding THEIR OWN BUSINESS and stay out of others lives.

That being said, if it were my very best friend, I would have to think about it long and hard. I have not told in the past, especially when I know the woman is totally in love with her mate. Im not going to go and break that home when as far as I can see its not doing any damage that is any of my business. If she comes crying to me uncertain, or things are going very badly because of it, that might be the time.

If the couple works it out or they break up, you could lose your friend because they associate you with the problem. In almost any scenario you become part of the shame and hardship of the situation, and what business of yours was it anyway?

That sounds like the sort of self-preservation I was talking about. What about their feelings? Is it worth pushing two people into a minefield because you're afraid of someone being mad at you?

To me, the whole notion of fidelity is one of the most most ridiculous customs which our society has ever imposed on our species - and the most unnatural. As many people do subscribe to this daft postulation, though, I'd weigh each instance on its merits.

Assuming that we are dealing with a couple which ardently subscribes to something which is so against nature, I would be wary of triggering something which could end that relationship on what I personally see as completely frivolous grounds. That said, if it looked as though one partner were being seriously dishonest with the other (about anything), I would definitely mention it to the guilty party and, if s/he weren't willing to come clean, would probably share my suspicions with the other.

On the other hand, if we are talking about a couple which does not try to deny their natural biological make-up, this would not be an issue in the first place. If dealing with rational people, no action would be required.

Errr...back to the matter at hand...

I am still at a loss to understand why the marital fidelity of another person (or the lack of it) is any business of mine.

I don't want you poking into my private life and I'm sure not going to check yours out either.

Moderation note: Inflammatory, off topic posts that appeard between Wertz's & nighttimer's posts have been removed. -Jaime

I'd like to add, that if those with a high moral standard come to me with tales of my partners infidelity, well.... You then go home to your happy life having dropped the proverbial bomb on me. Your business is done, and mine only begins.

While you may be having a nice family dinner after doing your moral duty, my life at home could be a whirlwind of confrontation, commotion, anger, hurt feelings and strife.

I suspect the taleteller would "feel" better about coming clean, sitting cosy, never mind that the 'others' life is suddenly in the toilet and truly, its all their fault for being a nosy spy and tattletale.

Think about it.

nighttimer: I think the hypothetical involved one knowing both partners in a relationship and somehow discovering that one or another of them had been transgressive. In that circumstance, what do you feel you should do?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::

The removed posts unintentionally brought up an interesting issue that is actually related to the topic, though. Suppose you knew that the person who was having unsafe sex outside of a relationship - and was not telling their partner. Would that affect any of you who feel that it's not your business to get involved? It would certainly make the decision for me.

Response to removed posts removed. -Jaime

Wertz,

It would be hard to know if someone was having unsafe sex with another unless they expressly told you so. If they told you THAT then I suppose you are friends with both partners, then I would discuss the issue with the offending party in depth. It might be necessary to eventually go and tell the other, I dont know. Maybe hinting around that they might need to be suspicious.
In the hetero world we dont often discuss if we are having safe sex or not. Sometimes a friend might bring it up if they think you are being stupid and promiscuous, but its not a usual topic or question.

That is indeed a good question. My very first comment to this thread started with "it depends"; in that specific case the balance might well swing in favor of telling. It would have to be very concrete knowledge, though, and I'm not sure how I'd know someone else was having unprotected sex unless I happened to be watching.

Two things. First, the claim that it is the person who told's "fault" that the other's life is in the toilet is kind of ignoring the fact that it was their partner that did the cheating. This just sounds like misplaced anger.

Second, the reason I might tell would not be to appease my personal moral burden, but an attempt to actually help my friend who's wife is lying to him. The big question for me is if it is better to know or not, and what are the chances of things just getting worse for him or if it is better to find out now.

It's possible for more than one party to be complicit, and responsible for what happens. How would you feel, for example, if someone was beaten as a result of your "help"? Having taken the choice of when and how to reveal the truth out of another's hands, would you still deny all responsibility?



What I've been saying, and I think others have as well, is that it's not a question for you. It's a question for the people in the marriage. Only they can provide the answer.

Agree completely. While you may THINK you are helping, chances are you are not. There are WAY too many variables that you have no knowledge of (and even if you did, it still doesn't make it your place or your business to play counselor or moral guide. I must say, that in my experience (personal and from friends who've been there, done that) the cheated on party probably knows and just doesn't want to admit it or deal with it. I knew that my first serious boyfriend (to whom I lost my virginity) had cheated on me, but I tried to pretend that I didn't know. Almost all of my friends have said they felt the same way (in married relationships) - sort of *knew* but didn't want to know. I think it's probably less likely that the cheated on person is entirely in the dark. The only time I can see that telling would be a good idea would be if I somehow knew that the cheater was having unprotected sex with his/her other partner(s). Then it doesn't just involve a relationship, but someone's potential health. Even still, I'd talk to the cheater first but would still tell.

I dunno, but I don't want to pass up on a perfectly good opportunity to mind my own business.

REOPENED.

Please continue to debate:

QUOTE

If you are privy to knowledge that one spouse is cheating on another (assuming you are friends) should you tell the wronged spouse?

Keep it civil and constructive.

Remind me never to get into a relationship with you, Wertz.

Given the fact that monagomy does exist in the animal kingdom points to that fact that it IS indeed acceptable to nature.

For the issue here, I think the truth is important. If the cheater's partner DOES know, then you aren't telling them anything new, hence no added stress, except the fact that the cheater has been SO blatant that people outside of the relationships now know.

If the partner DOES NOT know, then don't they have a right to make an informed decision? Decisions made upon insufficient knowledge are often faulty. You, by telling, are not the one breaking the contract of the relationship. You are simply helping the partner make an informed decision.

Given this situation, I would do as Bikerdad suggested (what I heard on Dr. Laura a few weeks ago, as well... ) tell the offending partner that they in x number of days, you will tell their partner. The choice is then in the offending partner's lap. The action (the reasonable action) may fall into yours, however.

While I'm flattered by the implication that you would consider a relationship were I of a more monogamous bent, I suspect it wouldn't work out in any event. You're too tall for my taste.


Of course monogamy exists in the animal kingdom. So does homosexuality. So does asexual reproduction, for that matter. I was speaking specifically of homo sap. While I imagine that there are human beings who have a natural propensity toward monogamous relationships (just as there are those with a natural propensity toward homosexuality), the bulk of the species - like most primates - is geared toward multiple partners (regardless of sexual orientation). The denial of this nature in our society, to my mind, does far more harm than good. The whole thesis of this thread, for example, presumes that "infidelity" is some heinous breach of natural law when, in fact, it is quite the opposite.

That said, I understand that many relationships are built on some sort of restrictive mutual agreement (though I suspect that, in most cases, at least one partner is being a tad disingenuous) and that "infidelity" is therefore a breach of trust. It is those cases to which we are apparently directing our comments here - though, unlike many, it seems, I would be the last to judge someone for what is perfectly natural behavior (biologically, if not socially).

I would agree with the Dr. Laura solution in most cases (where's the mouthwash?). The issue raised earlier regarding unsafe sex, though, would make my terms somewhat stronger - and would ensure that I'd follow through with the "threat".

Let's see, in my first marriage:

We got married because she was pregnant. Twenty two years later, I was managing the churches blood donation program when my oldest daughter donated blood. I was Type O, the ex was type O, our oldest daughter is type AB.

My ex accused me of having an affair with every female that I ever had a conversation with. She confronted her best friend, who was always bragging about her extramarital affairs. "Have you slept with my husband?" "Hundreds of times!" (Never in fact.)

I got divorced. I got remarried. We went off on our honeymoon. "You must be getting along well with the ex. You both tried to rent cabins for the same weekend." "Why would she want to do that?" "She's had an ongoing affair for years with the guy that always rents the cabin next to the one you rent. I thought that was why you were always up here on the same schedule."

I haven't seen either of my children in years because my mother told them "who their real fathers are" without ever telling me she "knew about all her affairs" until I'd been divorced for a decade.

I've had my spouse lied to, and the "truth" withheld from me because "She was so open about it, that we presumed that you knew."

With AIDS still a problem, I believe monogamy is the only form of safe sex.

Should you tell the spouse? Yes, especially if you have intimate personal knowledge, rather than mere suspicions. It is not grist for the rumor mill, nor something that you should lie about. It is one of the most explosive issues that can exist in a relationship. Don't mention it if you have any doubts about the real facts.

I voted other.

I would only tell the spouse, fiance, girl/boyfriend, etc. if I was 100% sure. No need to raise hell on a suspicion. Quite irresponsible, in fact.

No, it is not your responsibility. I was recently thrust into a similar position, although this may put a twist on things:

My best friend got engaged to a guy I respect and admire. She then started admitting feelings of attraction to a female co-worker. They began a fling, which they said would cease after my best friend got married. It did not end. I was very good friends with all the people involved, and did not know what to do. My cheating friend fully knew my displeasure, but she worked with me. Hard to avoid or end a friendship when they work with you. Finally, she informed her husband of the infidelity, which caused a lot of hard feelings. Strangely, it is right back to square one, and I've decided it is none of my business. As a friend, I do not have to respect every decision they make to be friends with them. While I thoroughly dislike the idea, I was more upset that the two women broke their promise to cease the affair after the wedding. They both knew I would never lie for either of them, and if I found out I was used as an excuse, her husband would hear about it.

I think the only time you have a responsibility to tell is when your honor and name get used to support the things which you disagree with. Aside from that, you have no cause to get involved in the private matters of people, no matter how good of friends you may be.

But that's just my opinion.