this is possible the only place on this issue we may agree. I think they should attack IDF posts and israeli government installations. bombing buses only hurts their cause. but that isn't the whole guerilla war, those are TATICS used in said war (and not good ones at that!)



first, israel RARELY arrests anyone. if they did we would here reports of "hamas leader so and so was arrested today" instead we hear "hamas leader so and so was killed when Israeli helicopters shot his car with a missle" the PA doesn't have the resources or forces to arrest people by the way:

also, if israel arrested those involved with terrorist activities ariel sharon, thousands of IDF members and many former israeli PMs would be sitting in jail (sharon has been indicted in belgium for war crimes BTW) as would catapiller (construction company that sells israel bulldozers used in collective punishment) but, I digress,

it should also be noted that israeli settlers have done terrorist attacks before, and never were arrested, and many in israel's jail have been charged with NO CRIMES!



can you be sure that no innocents weren't harmed or killed in that incident? I say it's safe to assume not THIS TIME! but this isn't the first time israel has used overwhelming force. in june or july 2002 they used a 1000 (or a 2000 can't remember) pound bomb to kill a single hamas leader IN A CROWDED APARTMENT BUILDING!!!! or a couple weeks ago, like 80 people were killed or injured when Israeli gunships used a missle to attack a car with hamas leaders in it (they escaped) or may I suggest you check out remember these children all are under 18, and it includes israeli youth killed as well. it goes back to the beginning of the current intifada. note a good 75% of palestinians were killed when israel used disproportionate force.

Well, after I blew ice tea out my nose laughing when I read "Hamas Declares Ceasefire", I took 5 minutes to show you how clueless you are about this situation. Your opinion on this subject isn't simply distorted - it appears made up.

In reality, there were 180 attacks by Palestinians during that "cease fire". This doesn't include the 15-20 terrorist threats EACH DAY the IDF had to deal with. But let's just look at the week of Aug 3 (leading up to your August 8th incident which you claim broke the cease fire)

Aug 3:
Israeli mother and her 3 children ambushed at checkpoint south of Jerusalem
Hizbullah fires anti-aircraft shells and injures a few Jews.
Israeli police have to shoot a guy when he wouldn't stop at a roadblock.

Aug 4:
Palestinian arrives at a IDF roadblock claiming to be shot in the foot by an Israeli
Israeli woman hurt when a concrete block is thrown at her and hit her face
Palestinians fire anti-tank rockets at IDF troops in Rafiah, Ramallah, and Jenin.

Aug 5:
Palestinians fire anti-tank rockets at IDF patrols in Tulkarm and Kadim.

Aug 6:
Palestinians fire at IDF patrol in Jenin. Mortars fired at Neve Dekalim
Israel releases 334 Palestinian security prisoners and administrative detainees (apparantly, this is the lack of restraint everybody is whining about)

Aug 8:
Hizbullah shells IDF outpost at Mount Dov. IDF responded with artillery and aircraft
Palestinians fire at IDF patrols in Kadim. Israelis return fire and injure 2
4 Hamas memebers killed at Askar when IDF operates against terrorists in refugee camps

Go to http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=HomePage, go to "Specials", and click on "Security Incidents Map and Timeline". Pick a week. Any week. They're all the same.

Unabomber, no offense dude, but I quit debating you one on one a long time ago. It's one thing to be opinionated on a subject beyond reason (which is probably why we're all here), but you can't get a fact right. And quite frankly, I don't have time to do your research for you.


Well, there ya have it. Justification for war crimes. I've seen it all now.

Ok Unabomber, you're starting to fly off the handle here. Feel free to debate, but lets get realistic.



Everybody knows what happens when you assume.



First of all, you need a source. Second of all, I haven't seen any source suggesting the casualty count was anywhere near that high.



No, you have shown that some Israeli leaders are racist. Not all.



You're drawing conclusions here as well.



There is no evidence that it was not, and until we are privy to some information on the nature of said building the only source that you could possibly be using to draw these conclusions is your own prejudices regarding Israeli's and the IDF.



My dad is an Israeli. As soon as I return to that country and claim my citizenship I will become an Israeli. You know what? We're not cowards. The people that serve in the IDF do so to protect their families and loved ones, and their country. That is not cowardice. Likewise, the suicide bombers who die in what they perceive as the only way to achieve their political goals aren't cowards as well.

Now before you start crafting a response please make sure you read this. (I'm talking to everyone in here.)

The only way that peace can be reasonably achieved is if EVERYONE stops killing. The only way we (as a reasonable group of people) can approach this dilemma is to realize that every human life has value and that nobody deserves death in the throes of armed combat. Fate should lie in the perview of chance or justice, not in the hands of a soldier or militant. That means that the Palestineans have to lay down their arms, and the Israeli's have to withdraw. Now obviously there are tremendous difficulties and I am in one way oversimplifying the affair. In another way I am being an idealist. But I can tell you one thing; there will be no peace in Israel (or anywhere else) while there are people who value one life over another. And just about everyone here has done that; much to my regret. How do the participants of this forum talk about the lives of people they do not know, and likely never will? How exactly are you fit to pronounce that so and so should die, or that this group should kill only these people, or use this approach? These are people who are simply doing what they think is right, not out of hatred, but of love. It is one of the great tragedies of our time that these people can have their love twisted so much that they are driven to kill for it, and that other people can thirst for their blood.

Joe - please avoid 'yelling' at us. This is a civil debate forum.

Arafat isn't sending in all of the bombers, many of them are doing it on their own because they feel so strongly about the issue. Killing Arafat isn't going to do a thing to stop the suicide bombers, it would probably encourage more violent and more extreme acts of terrorism in retaliation

[quote=Ultimatejoe,Sep 12 2003, 10:38 PM] [quote]n you be sure that no innocents weren't harmed or killed in that incident? I say it's safe to assume not THIS TIME![/quote]

Everybody knows what happens when you assume.

[/quote]
UJ I was assuming no INNOCENT palestinians (none were mentioned) were harmed in this attack on a SUSPECTED bomb factory.

[quote]
[quote] 
or a couple weeks ago, like 80 people were killed or injured when Israeli gunships used a missle to attack a car with hamas leaders in it  [/quote]

First of all, you need a source. Second of all, I haven't seen any source suggesting the casualty count was anywhere near that high.
[/quote]

I'm not positive what the original casualty count was (I think it was actually 25 killed AND injured) unfortunately the source of this story has been "scrubbed" (http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusintl/reuters09-01-071703.asp?reg=mideast - page says: "Our Web servers cannot find the page or file you asked for" WTF???)

[quote]No, you have shown that some Israeli leaders are racist. Not all.[/quote]

I will give this one to you, as there are a few israeli leaders that were truly interested in peace (Rabin comes to mind) I will give THEM credit. however the current leadership has shown utter contempt for any idea of peace, and that is what matters.

[quote]
[quote] 
since the beginning, they have hated them and wanted them killed off  [/quote]


You're drawing conclusions here as well.[/quote]

I admit I am. it seems that MOST israeli leaders have had a deep hatred of non jews. (to me at least) as I mentioned above there are SOME that have been willing to work for peace.

[quote]
[quote]
notice there was no CONCLUSIVE evidence about it, as you imply. israel decided, (likely through information tortured out of someone) "that's an explosives factory. and the used an ANTI TANK ROCKET which they KNEW (as any reasonable person should) would result in deaths of bystanders. [/quote]


There is no evidence that it was not, and until we are privy to some information on the nature of said building the only source that you could possibly be using to draw these conclusions is your own prejudices regarding Israeli's and the IDF.[/quote]

exactly. perhaps the IDF did have evidence the building they shot with an Anti Tank Weapon was a bomb factory. but there is still the chance they were wrong. if they had proof, they should have shown the world the proof and done as the would have. as far a I'M aware they did no such thing. but could they not have used less force in taking these people out? what had there been small children nearby? (the report only acknowledges the HAMAS member's death though, which makes me think there were no children or innocents about) I simply think because israel has the more capable force they should restrain themselves a bit (this doesn't mean not defending themselves.)

[quote]
[quote] 
just another example of Israeli cowardice! (don't say pal. suicide bombers are cowards. blowing yourself up takes a lot more courage then firing a anti-tank rocket!)[/quote]

My dad is an Israeli. As soon as I return to that country and claim my citizenship I will become an Israeli. You know what? We're not cowards. The people that serve in the IDF do so to protect their families and loved ones, and their country. That is not cowardice. Likewise, the suicide bombers who die in what they perceive as the only way to achieve their political goals aren't cowards as well.[/quote]

Ok, maybe I DID go a bit overboard and painted too broad a picture. let me clarify. rather the risking their lives to bring this/these bomb makers in the IDF tends to use ATWs (anti tank weapons) and helicopter gunships. I think THIS is cowardice. true, people trying to protect their country (especially when constantly attacked) are fairly brave. but from what I understand a sizable minority refuses to serve in the occupied territories. I give them "props" as they know they may be the victim of an attack yet refuse to repress and oppress the pals. the people in the IDF and IOF (israeli occupation forces) on the ground do could be considered brave as well. (they ARE more open to attack) however, I feel it is cowardly to use F-16's and apaches and A1's to brutalize the palestinians. (as I fell it is cowardly for the USAF to drop bombs from 30,000-50,000 feet or 200 miles out to sea) it takes a certain amount of bravery to place on self in harms way. I apologize for my gross over generalization

[quote]The only way that peace can be reasonably achieved is if EVERYONE stops killing. The only way we (as a reasonable group of people) can approach this dilemma is to realize that every human life has value and that nobody deserves death in the throes of armed combat. Fate should lie in the perview of chance or justice, not in the hands of a soldier or militant. That means that the Palestineans have to lay down their arms, and the Israeli's have to withdraw.[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly. peace cannot be reached if only one side lays down their arms. I feel however that israel (as the more capable side) should do something to start this process. perhaps the next time HAMAS blow up a buss the israelis should do nothing. (aside from peacefully arresting those responsible) and instead of bombing an apartment building and killing dozens of innocents (as happened last year) they should try to arrest those responsible. and perhaps, rather then treating the PA as an enemy, they could offer sevices such as training of police so the PA can crackdown on terrorists. also I think it is important that israel abide by UNSC resolutions calling for withdraw from the occupied territories (which would likely curb A LOT of terrorism, IMO) and perhaps HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, and others could denounce bus bombings as ineffective and target any Pals. that did so.

I commend you ultimatejoe, though your bias seems to be on israel's side, you recognize that BOTH sides need to do something to end this. that is not something you find in this heated argument much.

Suicide bombers are not brave, they are cowardly thugs. The specific targeting of innocent civilians being described as an acceptable tactic is barbaric. Defending those positions on one hand and calling for peace on the other is hypocrisy at its worst.

Passion, where did unabomber say he supported that? From everything I've read, he's said that he doesn't support attacking civilians:







Also, I don't think your post was very constructive. It was just two lines of rhetoric with pretty much no explanation.

let me see you strap explosives to your chest and pull the pin. then tell me palestinains aren't brave!! as rattlesnake, my comrade, pointed out, I do not condone their choice of targets. they really should attack IDF post and israeli gov. installations, as a matter of tactics (harder to demonize people attacking armed soldiers) their targeting of innocents simply hurts their case. I can see the desperation that leads to suicide, but killing innocents accomplishes NOTHING. the are WRONG to do do so.

on the other hand I can see that israel is not completely innocent in this whole affair. (unlike some ) they have more then once instigated the violence that leads to suicide bombings. (in reality I would have no problem with those tactics were they directed toward IDF, IOF, and Israeli government installations)

I think that israel should HELP the PA crackdown on terrorists. using gunships to kill a person extrajudicially will only lead to violence. israel, as the more powerful side should take some responsibility.

I leave this post with a quote from from ghandi: "let the jews, who claim to be the chosen race, vindicate their posistion by chosing the path of nonviolence"

Israel retaliates by bombing Hamas members. Hamas just bombs back, then Israel retaliates....it's an endless cycle!



The PA doesn't want Israel's help to crack down on Hamas. The PA doesn't crack down on Hamas ever so i guess there is no reason to ask for their help

Strapping on explosives and blowing up a busload of women and children doesn't even qualify one as human in my book. Brave?? HA! They are brainwashed chattel raised from birth with one goal in life, to martyr oneself in the pursuit of a perverted goal of annihilating the Jewish race.

I will state emphatically that Israel has not entirely innocent in their tactics, but at least Israeli society doesn't breed children only to raise them for an early death.

'palestinian' tactics are the antithesis of civilized conduct.

Dontreadonme: why did you put the word Palestinian in inverted commas and with a small p? Because you don't think they are a proper nationality? or because you think the tactics actually somebody else's? Just curious to know.

Maybe you should have waited for unabomber to present his own defense of some of the most inhumane actions being perpetrated on the face of this planet today before you chimed in that he said nothing of the sort.

Fact....Palestinians are slaughtering innocent human beings by the hundreds, by the thousands!

Fact....They are specifically targeting those innocents.

Fact....'Wishing' they would change the targets while calling them brave anyway is condoning what should be condemmed.

Maybe you'd care to offer some on-topic insight into the topic instead of defending the indefensible comments made by your 'comrade'. An erroneous defense at that.

Palestinian is not a nationality, palestine is not a nation. Palestine was not a nation.
My opinion.....I'm sure others will disagree.....

Palestine may not be an independent nation today, and you are even correct if you say it was not an independent nation in the past. However the test of nationhood has never been whether you are now, or have been in the past an independent nation. Try telling the Latvians they were not a nation until the 1918 and then only briefly - this is certainly the approach the USSR adopted. Today Russia is making the same mistake with the Chechnyans - with tragic consequences on all sides.

The Palestinians clearly see themselves as a nation. That is why the few symbols of nationhood which they have, such as their flag and their leader, are so important to them. You are entitled to disagree with their strongly held nationalist feelings, but it does you no credit to try to belittle them by putting the name they call themselves into inverted commas.

For twenty years, between 1967 and 1987 the Israelis did try this exact approach, pretending that the concept of Palestine or Palestinian no longer existed, even had never existed at all. This extended to forbidding Palestinians to display their flag. As has happened so often in history this attempt to suppress a nation ended in revolt: the first intifada. Only then did Israel begin to give some sort of recognition to the Palestinians as a people and begin the process of negotiating with them.

sources please. over the past 3 years they have killed less then 1000. (try going to the Remmber These Children site. (I realize it only records 18 year olds and under) israeli children killed: 101 palestinians: 464! who's slaughtering who! (most the pals. were killed by stray IDF fire)



I do not dispute this, and I condemn THIS.



I will NOT condemn them for fighting the oppression they face from Israel on a near daily basis. it takes bravery to fight someone that is better equipped, bigger, and stronger! I do think that suicide bombings are an unsound tatic (lose people to fight Israel) as is their choice of targets (target innocents makes it easy to demonize you)




DTOM, I was not aware you grew up in the occupied territorries, nor that you were a palestinian. if you didn't grow up there and weren't "brainwashed" yourself, I want to see the sources for this statement. maybe these bombers are 'brainwashed' rather then very desperate. perhaps these people are tired of feeling oppressed and see blowing themselves up as the only option the have to fight that oppression.

I should point out that those that want to destroy israel and kil all israelis are a minority. according to a reprint of an article by israelipolicyforum.org:
(http://www.laborzionist.org/reprint_daring_to_hope.html)

I realize there are some people that want all israelis killed, but they are in the minority. oh speaking of them (hamas and groups that split from them) israel had the oppurtunity to keep hamas from ever getting recognization:
(http://www.mideastfacts.com/hanania_hamas.html)

and they were originally funded (albeit seceretly) by israel's security service, Shin Bet.

(http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/04/10/1018333371865.html - about halfway down)

Bogus. Completely bogus and here's why:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2.../30/91308.shtml

Assuming you won't read this link because you apparently didn't read this in an earlier post:

think about this for a second:

Why is it 95% of the "innocents" killed on the Palestinian side males? And 38% of non-combatants killed on the Israeli side were female? It's impossible to be killing people randomly with that rate of males while 38% fits the model perfectly.

So gee, why is that?

Because that butthead Arafat is sending them out into harms way so people like you will look at the RAW numbers and feel sorry for them. Obviously, it's working.

When Israel responds to terrorist attacks and tries to take out combatants, Arafat is sending kids out there to throw rocks, stand in front of the terrorist leaders, etc. And then, what happens? They get hurt and killed! This is against the Geneva Convention, this is a war crime, and just plain barbaric.

This is not freedom fighting. This is annialation. This article nails the situation perfectly in my opinion: Why Israel is right to assassinate Hamas leaders

Well, I was trying to be civil and not call them brain dead. Do I have to be a palestinian or grow up in Israeli territory to believe that people who would blow up themselves and innocent women and children are brain washed?
Let's see, suicide goes against human nature. Suicide/homicide attacks have not proven to be an effective technique for gaining statehood. Families, Imams and terrorist leaders exhort young palestinian men (and sometimes women) to strap explosives on their chest and walk into a cafe, market or on a bus before pulling the fuze. Calling them brainwashed is giving them credit.

That's because there is a higher probability of children dying in Palestine because of the fact that the Israelis use Apache missiles, which can cause a huge explosion compared to a suicide bomb & the fact that they are firing in a civilian populace and missiles can go haywire and stray

which is ILLEGAL!!!! firing missles that can fail, miss and cause general dstruction is reckless. it is also cowardly to use gunships to kill them rather then putting soldiers into possible harm by trying to arrest them, or even just kill them!!

dayton, no ONE of those 464 listed on the remember the children site is listed as having been killed in suicide bombings. according to you own link: taking this number, remember the childrens numbers, that leaves 115 adults that have been killed. (I am not sure how RTC gets their numbers right now, I will get back with that, but according to their "about us" page )

I do not care about raw numbers by the way, israel could kill none, but if they still oppressed as they I would still support their cause. there may or may not have been a palestinian nation. that is irrelevant. what is relevant is that there were people in the land the british gave to the jews (not meant in a derogatory way) the british had no right to give anyone, but the people already there, that land. by the way, israel's first PM admits they stole the land:

I would like to point something out to you dayton: (from the article "Why Israel is right to assassinate Hamas leaders") now if it is true Israel doesn't believe Arafat can get hamas out of the picture, it PROVES that israel doesn't want peace because everytime they work toward peace, they insist that arafat stop militant groups!!! (by the way I'm not against killing hamas leaders, hamas is perhaps the greatest obstacle to peace, but israel should use soldiers instead of 1000 pound bombs. they should conduct the assassinations in a responsible manner!!)

dtom, you don't seem to understand. yes I'm sure some of them are "braindead" (of course so is a good half of america!) but most of the ones that grow up to blow themselves up are deperate. they have seen family and friends killed and are extremely angry. there is no NEED to brainwash people like that. zealots just take advantage of that, and convince the kid bomb certain targets. most suicide bombers would do so even if no one ever talked to them (Many are suffering psychological trauma, and, according to Shafik Masalha, a clinical psychologist at Tel Aviv University, some 15 percent of Palestinian children say they want to become “martyrs.” “I believe that the motives are the terrible lives that the children live daily,” Masalha said. “This should be a warning not only to Israeli but also to Palestinian society [about] what they are doing to the next generation.” notice he criticizes BOTH sides.) and your right, suicide bombing won't work for getting statehood, but most of them (the bombers) probably don't care about Pal statehood, and would rather die fighting israel and the oppression they feel.

EDITED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING:
this is likely my last post on this subject. I get tired of arguing in circles with people that seem to think israel is never wrong and the palestinians are never right.

Yes, because you are wrong. A nation isn't defined by geographical bounds; just as a nationality isn't identified by a state.

A nation is merely a people united by a common culture, tradition and shared history that identify themselves as a cohesive entity.

UnaBomber was making the point that Israel's actions in the 'Occupied Territories' and Palestine are illegal. Well, neither Palestinian suicide bombers or Israeli missiles are legal I'm afraid, unless I'm a complete fool.

We're trying to see these two nations as peaceful and settled. But the truth is, they're at war. War. And any actions they take against each other (attack and retaliation) have to be considered in that perspective too.

I am only aware of one nation involved in this mess. As best as I can tell the other side is made up of Syrian/Jordanian refugees left behind from an illegitimate Arab created war. The real question is whether or not Syria and Jordan knew what they were doing when they left these poor people behind. Let's be honest with the world and start holding the Arab world accountable for the war they created.

Well, then you are not a very aware person then LOL- sorry, too easy, but it ALWAYS takes two to make a armed conflict, and isreal and Britain and the US are far more culpable for the problems in the middle east than any other group, because of our continued ignorant meddling.

To place all the blame on the palestenians is just to put your head in the sand and ingnore the reality.

Fact: Isreal was a non-entity in the world since AD-70 when the Romans destroyed the temple. There was no Isreal until Britain and with some help, the US created it in 1948. There were already people living there, a majority, that had to be displaced to do it. Guess what? They are not happy about it!

OK, we can argue semantics........
Palestine is not a state nor a country.
All the talk of the 'occupies territories'....
The only territory Israel has occupied was previously owned by Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon or Syria.

I believe there should be an actual nation/state of Palestine, but let's quit pretending that Israel invaded and occupied a country that didn't exist.
Next Israel will be blamed for occupying Narnia.

John Locke - it would be helpful if you could substantiate your views that the Israelis are a nation but the Palestinians are not, by responding to the arguments made by Ultimatejoe.

In the meantime try looking at it this way: Syria, Jordan and Palestine were all colonies established by the Western Powers after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The first two became independent nations; the latter ended up being taken over by what is now Israel. You are quite wrong to claim that the Palestinians are somehow Syrians or Jordanians - they came from Palestine - not Syria or Jordan.

The more extreme Israelis use the sort of warped logic of your statements to call for the expulsion of all the Palestinians to Jordan and/or Syria - this would be ethnic cleansing, a practice which is contrary to international law and was rightly condemned by the USA when practiced by the Serbs. It would also no doubt result in a most appalling and tragic humanitarian crisis. I take it you don't support such a step, and if you don't you should not encourage those who do by portraying the Palestinians as Jordanians and/or Syrians.

Are the Kurds not a nation or nationality? I am sure the Kurds will be upset at that statement as well- and are arguably the largest and most oppressed non-nation having ethnic group in the world- oppressed by the Iranians, Turkish and Iraqis- yet we have not given them a nation either- I still think that the only way to end this is to force the Jews into a goverment situation like the former Yugoslavia- no ethnic cleansing allowed by the Jews, sanctions against the Isrealis until they allow full power sharing with the Palestenians, full right of return for palastenians etc etc. Anything else will make this end in no way but genocide and continued loss of innocent life.

and there they at it again.

19 bystanders including 4 children were killed, 55 wounded in a restaurant by a "palestinian" woman wrapped in explosives . Looks like it was a good day for Islamic Jihad. She even murdered 4 arabs in her effort.

Arafat condemned the action...naturally.

Next up...Israeli retaliation.

Naturally he would condem it. He is a nobel peace prize winner. They usually condem violence (insert another sarcastic remark here). Israel will retaliate, and then the hypocritical United Nations will tell Israel to not do it again and once again bring another resolution against them.

Previous actions by the Israeli government since before the War of Independance could hardly be called "justified". Thus, such examples of Palestinian/Israeli brutality are rather limited. '

Though, few other then Ariel Sharon can boast such a record of murder then he. If the Israel.

The Haganah itself was rather active before the War of Independance.

Now Arafat wants to talk.

Arafat wants to talk peace

I don't believe it for a minute. The day i believe it is the day Sharon and Arafat are shaking hands after signing a peace agreement in front of the White House. This is a stall tactic. Just so Hamas can catch it's breath and re-group.

I agree. Watch media opinion, though, when Sharon agrees with us and brushes Arafat's offer aside.

[quote]Just so Hamas can catch it's breath and re-group.[/quote[

Or maybe he's tired of Israeli tanks rolling into the west bank?

Just a thought.

Doubt it. He loves watching the Israelis do what it does militarily because it some how strengthen's his position and the position of his terrorist buds.

I do not see how an Israeli invasion force strengthens Arafats' position. Sharon has not exactly had the most impressive record, and would likely be sacraficing America's interests in the region with yet another invasion.

If you look back on history, you might see why they are so upset, and why they will not stop unless Israel starts making commitments of it's own.

I think the first thing to do would be to stop looking through history in an attempt to assign blame, or claim the moral highground. Palestinian terrorists have blown up Israeli (and Arab) citizens, just as the Israeli army has killed Palestinian civilians.

The reality of the situation is that Israel contains 2 peoples - Palestinians and Jews....neither side will disappear and both must accept a degree of compromise IRRESPECTIVE of who may have the greater claim to the land...the alternative will be tit for tat and escalating violence. The majority of Israelis and the majority of Palestinians do not want that and would probably be prepared to compromise on their principles if it meant peace.

I do think that the countries surrounding Israel could improve matters by taking a less hostile stance towards it...it should be obvious to everyone that Israel is a permanent fixture in the Middle East and that however much the more extreme Arab governments may wish otherwise, it is in their interests to accept that and adopt stable and civil (if not friendly) relations with Israel.

As an aside, the current birth rates amongst Palestinians is much higher than that of Israel - if this holds up - and there is little reason to suspect it will not - then in 30 years time, if a two state solution is not adopted, Israel will contain more Palestinians of voting age than Israelis - which would create something of a dilemma for the middle easts most democratic country. (The Economist Nov 6 2003)

Over the past few months I have lost all sympathy [well, most sympathy] for the "Palestinians". They clearly do not want this violence to stop, and their tactics are unthinkable. There is no way that anybody should be able to tell Israel to stop PROTECTING ITSELF. My solution would be to let the Israelis do what they have to do to stop terrorists from killing Israeli citizens.

CP

I second that Conservpat. I'm so tired of them chastizing the nations that are trying to rid the world of terrorism and taking rightful actions to protect their citizens. Yet do NOTHING to contribute to the solution except complain and place blame.

That's how the UN works. They create a resolution condeming attacks from Israel but they never condem terrorist attacks by Hamas by a UN resolution. I'm surprised they haven't tried sanctions on Israel. That would be the boiling point for which international debate would erupt from

In case you had'nt noticed GA... Hamas is not a nation.

And the UN has condemed terrorism on many many occaisions.

editted to add


ConservPat



Would that be your final solution?

The alternative is that we don't allow Israel to do what's necessary to stop terrorism and watch the bloodbath of Israeli and "Palestinian" citizens begin. The terrorists are the problem, so the solution is killing them, and that is my solution.

CP

But that IS what the Israeli army has been trying to do. It isn't that easy, because innocents (and there are always innocents) get in the way and every dead Palestinian baby increases hatred of Israel and more people become terrorists.

It would be nice to think that terrorists were easy to find and deal with, one way or another, but they aren't. Real life is messy and complicated. And incidentally, the bloodbath has already begun - several thousand Palestinians and Israelis = bloodbath in my dictionary.

There will never be peace between these2 parties because there is always a group or a small band of people who want to kill Israelis, and once that happens, Israel retaliates, and the cycle goes on over and over again.

It was nice and quiet in the area until Palestinian gunmen killed 2 Israeli soldiers. Now retaliation will come and then another bombings, etc

Yes it was too quiet if you don't count the 3 Pal. people killed a week before, and the 10 year old boy the day before that, and 1000 people left homeless last month while the Isrealis continue to build their illegal settlements, which was deemed illegal by the UN, US, and the Israelis. But those are NO EXCUSEs for the Pal. people too retaliate, but deaths of two heavily armed Israeli soliders is reason enough for them to shut down all the Pal. land again.

I don't think that Israel is being allowed to fully protect itself though. America keeps tying Israel's hands, and we can't keep doing that. We need to allow Israel to do what it has to do to protect it's people.

CP

Exactly how has the US tied Israels hands? By giving them 16M a day in aide. The numerous vetos in the UN? If anything the US is backing Israel and usually stands alone doing so. Like the racist conference in South Africa a week before Sept 11.

Oh don't get me wrong, the US CLEARLY supports Israel, however the US is constantly telling Israel not to go overboard on the defensive counterattacks against the terrorists. But in that region of the world you have to go overboard, because if you show the slightest sign of weakness, terrorists will be jumping on you like a gymnast on a trampoline [yeah, I just came up with that off the top of my head, oy vey].

CP

I guess that racist would be a good term for the UN World Conference Against Racism, considering their treatment of Israel in the proposed language of the UN declaration.


Link

So who decides "overboard." How about Rafah last month. 1000 people homeless and dozens killed. The US government didn't even look twice and it barely made the news.