This is getting ridculous.

Hamas has been quiet for...what....2-3 weeks...then suddenly they blow up a bus! What did they say in justification? Because we can????

Abbas (Palestine PM) vowed to crack down on militants....no results. So, he let's Arafat re-group his Hamas dogs and allow them to blow up a bus! So, Israel, saying that Abbas is a worthless shell, assassinates a Hamas leader by blowing up his car with an Apache helicopter. This causes Hamas to get angry and the peace agreement flies out the window when Hamas lays down their bomb belts and say the peace plan is GONE. Now, the cycle of violence begins again with Hamas blowing something up, causing Israel to retaliate, and so on and so on.

What would you do to calm this situation?


Personally, i'd find out where Arafat is sleeping one night, parachute drop a commando team on his roof, capture him, and try his butt for being the terrorist that he is.

I would FORCE the Palestinians to accept a State. That way they would be responsible to control terrorists in their boarders. Then I would build a huge wall and get the U.N. to help the Palestinians control their country.

I think Isreal has to be forced a little farther along too though. Remember from our debate on the Jewish homeland, the displacement of the palestenians was wrong as well. I think a bit of soveriegnty of the Jewish settlers has to be removed and some kind of power sharing goverment for a period of time and full citizenship and right of return for the refugee palestenians, but no reparations or property confiscation, exept for the settlements placed after the seven days war. Hopefully it would make the majority of palestenians involved in the actual running of goverment and power to the middle and lower class palestenians, and hopefully marginalize the extremists so the goverment powers that try to arrest them are the palestenians themselves.

I know it sounds crazy, but isn't that kind of what is happening in Ireland?

Not quite. I think the crucial difference in Ireland, which has made the peace process more or less succeed there, is that the majority of ordinary people on both sides got to a point where they were deeply tired of violence committed on both sides, and didn't think anybody was "right".

In Israel, there's still a partisanship in the condemnation of violence on both sides (and external to Israel, among those that condemn or support on side of the conflict).

"The poor downtrodden Palestianians are expressing their desperation and anger against the arrogant and violent agenda of the Israeli government and people", for example. Or "The noble and democratic Israeli people are simply exercising their right to self defence in the face of relentless terrorism", for another.

In essence, people on one side transfer all blame onto the other side. Their side is blameless, and is only reacting to what the other side is doing. That is not a recipe for conciliation.

Until most people, most especially the people on the ground on both sides, simply say "The killing has to stop", nothing much will change.

I find myself in this position, with perhaps a hint of bias against the Israelis - I suppose I expect more of a democracy than to continue with their (frankly) racist policies. Ethiopians practising a religion that separated form mainstream Judaism several cenuries before Christianity can come to Israel and become full citizens at the drop of a hat, but the Arabs that live and work within the borders of "Greater Israel" are treated like hostile aliens. Some of them probably are, but I'd wager that they'd be a damned sight less hostile if they were treated with some dignity and respect.

However, unlike the most vocal observers (inside and outside the area), I don't think that this justifies armed resistance among the Palestinians. They don't need Hamas and an Arafat, they need a Gandhi or a Luther King.

Maybe the best way to stop this mess is to tell the Palestians with American Warplanes to stop blowing themselves up in Israel? Just a suggestion.

The question of Palestine is a bit more complex than you seem to grasp, goamerica - with a long, fractured history. Do you have a credible source linking Yassir Arafat to Hamas and their activities??

Hamas was constituted in the late eighties with the support of Israel, funded and trained under Yitzhak Shamir, in an effort to create an organization in opposition to the PLO. Hamas was long dedicated to undermining the Palestinian Authority and Arafat, with the suppot of our good friends in Saudi Arabia.

The actions of Hamas against Israel are yet another example of blowback - similar to our creation of the Taliban or our early support of Saddan Hussein. The situation will never be "calmed" until we start realizing what the situation is. The capture of Arafat - especially in relation to Hamas - would accomplish nothing.

Just imagine yourself the only democracy surrounded by irrational and closed-minded fanatics. That's what it's like in Israel. They are a sound, democratic nation forced to deal with the insanity and ignorance of the Palestinian people.
Things will not get better until the Palestinians are enlightened. At present time the majority of the Palestinian population is brain-washed and desperate. Desperate people do desperate things (i.e. blowing themselves up in the name of freedom)......The situation will not improve until the evil is abolished....You cannot reason with madmen, you have to systematically take them out to restore order. There is no other way.

DP- you mean a situation more like South Africa- an aparthied system very much like Isreal, with all your "uncivilised" nieghbors "just don't understand you"- remember, it is the Isrealis who are the home stealers and oppressors here, and I doubt very much if an American would react so much differently to an occupation by a foreign power to strong to fight by conventional means.

THEY ARE NOT A SOUND AND DEMOCRATIC NATION until they allow the right of return all palestenians and share goverment power with them. IT is a false democracy set up by Britain really that has come to haunt us to this day.

C.R.,

The world was founded on people stealing land from others, so if you are going to use that as the basis of your Pro-Palestinian argument, then you must agree that it is time for us Americans to give our land back to the Indians. Fair is fair.
Do I need to remind you that the Jewish people underwent one of the most horrendous acts committed against mankind, EVER! It was called the Holocaust!
They deserve Israel. And they're not going to give it up to the Palestinians, nor should they. Israel has offered reasonable solutions, in terms of land allotments, and the Palestinians have foolishly turned them down. The lives that have been
lost due to the cowardly violence on the part of the Palestinians is disgusting! Anybody with half of a brain can see that Israel is the side to favor. Period!!! Furthermore, peace in the middle east will not happen until
both sides want it - the Palestinians, along with almost every other Arab nation in the Middle East, do not want peace with Israel, they want to see the Jewish people completely obliterated.

I agree with you toa point Wertz,
Here's an article detailing the mess going on over there now. It puts a good perspective on things....

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=55

doomed: I would respectfully submit that using terms like "irrational", "close-mided", "insanity", "ignorance", "brain-washed", "madmen", "cowardly", and "evil" do not contribute much to constructive debate - especially as they could be applied with equal accuracy to both sides in this conflict. Indeed, I would argue that they are far more applicable to Ariel Sharon and the Likudniks - but what would that prove? That I can rant as well as you??


You also seem to be contradicting yourself a bit. You argue that Israel has some divine right to exist because of "one of the most horrendous acts committed against mankind, EVER!" This could just as easily apply to Native Americans who underwent massive extermination through the systematic genocide practiced by American settlers who broke over 700 treaties with the native population - yet you seem to imply that their claim to territory would be ridiculous. Fair is apparently not fair from where you're sitting in judgement.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::

johnlocke: Thanks for the link. The murkiness of shifting loyalties and mutable alliances among Palestinians seems as complex as ever. This is one of the reasons I tend to avoid discussions of the question of Palestine. It's difficult to express even the simplest of opinions - at least convincingly - without an accompanying doctoral thesis. Nothing in Arab-Israeli politics is simple - and there is no clear right or wrong, despite the partisan blather of ideologues.

That's kind of what I was getting at. Your position will not stop until all the Palestinians have been forcibly "enlightened" (or "killed", as we might say less euphemistically). Their position will not stop until all the Jews have been killed or pushed back into the Mediterranean and Israel is part of an Islamic caliphate again.

I submit to you that neither is a likely outcome. Indeed, that the only possible outcome is continued bloodshed on both sides.

The one constant truth about humans everywhere is that they don't like being forced to do anything. They don't like being persecuted, or denied rights that they can see people around them getting. It's the reason that European Jews didn't cooperate with the Nazi Holocaust, for Pete's sake! It's the reason that Israelis are trying so hard to protect themselves from hostile outsiders that want to see them ejected from "their land". It's the reason the Palestinians also want to protect themselves from hostile outsiders who want to eject them from "thier land", too. The main problem is, they both have the same definition of what constitutes "their land".

Is it not possible to accept that the Israelis have the right objective (peace and security) but be pursuing it through the wrong means? Is it not possible to see that the Palestinians have at least one worthy objective, too - not being run out of their homes to make way for someone else?

The point I'm trying to make is that sitting down and trying to peacefully negotiate (which Israel has done, ad infinitum, with the Palestinians) with a group of people that are violently and randomly murdering your country's citizens is not going to work. It amazes me that so many people don't understand that when one are being attacked on an almost a daily basis, (and in the most cowardly way, as the Palestinians are doing) one cannot lie down and take it. If I was Sharon I'd be doing exactly what he's doing. You fight fire with bigger fire - you don't take the Ghandi approach because it won't work unless both sides are using peaceful means.
This is a big, big problem, that has been ongoing. There are many factors that contribute to the madness, but I'll side with Israel as long as the suicide bombers
and the cruel opinion-leaders are mindlessly trying to make their point with unnecessary and cruel measures. You cannot compare Israel's tactics with those of the Palestinians - they operate on two different moral and ethical codes.

Um... it worked for Gandhi.


So you're suggesting what? That the Palestininans should take "the Gandhi approach"?

I don't have a whole lot to add; but to those who harp on a military intervention against the Palestineans, I have one question.

Where did you find out that the majority of those people support the intifadah and attacks on civilians? I certainly have seen no credible polls in support of this opinion. Care to provide a source? Because bombing a population in response to the actions of a few people who have entrenched themselves therein has proved pretty poor as far as peace-making is concerned.

UJ, I would hardly consider targeting cars with Hamas leaders in them and bulldozing homes of homicide bombers 'bombing a population'.

When a group of terrorists routinely blow up buses, killing civilians, I think even Gandhi would advocate a military response.

Please don't disregard the content because of the source.

Here's more info:

Palestinian choices

58% of the Palestinians support Hamas' refusal to accept a ceasefire

Did Ghandi have to put up with suicide bombers wanting to kill HIM? Nope.

Beladonna:

So according to your link describing that 58% of Palestine people agree with Hama's decision to refuse peace, you are saying that a majority hate Israel, see the peace plan as bogus & want more Israelis to die.

That tells the world that Hamas needs to be taken out, whether the Palestian gov't does it or Israelis Attack Helicopters do it

Thank you goamerica and donttreadonme for being the voice of common sense and reason. Sometimes the obvious truth is utterly lost on people - it is so clearly prevalent in many of the posts submitted on this subject.

What is painfully obvious is that Isreal and Britain CREATED this enemy- remember, when the Jewish state was created in 1948- there was already an indigious population- Isreal's only RIGHT to exist is because of bigger guns and some support from the worlds strongest militaries. If you have a population, a really large displaced, discriminated against and beaten at any conventional military option, thier desperation is logically going to go in this direction, the direction of targeting Isreali civilians and using suicide bombings, because they have no choice left.

The current policies of Isreal and US and Britain has only succeeded in further radicalization of the entire population of all non-Jews in the region. So the only way to find some peace is to force Isreal into some concessions, as well as the Palestenians. Asking the Palestenians to stop bombing is exactly the equivilent of asking the Isrealis to dismantle thier military.

You don't need to be insulting. People are going to disagree with you here. It's a debate forum. Please be civil (questions about this? PM me)

Israel has made so many attempts to satisfy the needs of the Palestinians by giving them more land, etc.. The Palestinians' chances for better living conditions have been repeatedly sabotaged by their own leaders, and so-called supporters.
The truth is that there is so much that could be done by the surrounding countries, to help the Palestinians, but the Arab countries do not want that. Why? Because it would bring peace and quiet, and leave little chance for the annihilation
of the Jewish population, which is the ultimate goal for so many in that region. Israel can be blamed for all of the Palestinian problems, but the truth of the matter is that there are so many others who are really responsible, like Arafat, for one. Perhaps, if he would have stopped lining his own pockets, and used resources to actually build better lives for his people, they would not be in
such a desperate state. He purposely has kept them "hungry" (literally and figuratively) and ignorant.

I have nothing but admiration and respect for Israel, for surviving the way they have, against all odds, in a tremendously hostile and anti-Semitic region.

Furthermore, NOTHING justifies suicide bombings. NOTHING!

Just like NOTHING justifies bulldozing houses, blocking ambulances, killing children who throw rocks, or the expansionist policies of Israel.

What chances did Palestinian leaders throw away exactly, for a better life? Because it all comes down to Palestine not havnig a military and giving up more of their land. Gee, sounds like a great way to statehood.

Not quite. The world is founded upon people winning land from others. It's done through military action where one side wins, kicks the other people out and keeps the land. Israel never did this. Israel was *GIVEN* the land by the US and UK because both countries felt guilty for ignoring the Holocaust during WWII. The US won territory from the Indians because we were militarily stronger, we were not simply handed the country by a superior force.

If Israel actually ever fought their own battles (which they have never done), I might feel differently, but they don't.



And that has what to do with taking land from a native people? They got screwed so they get to screw someone else?

So who fights in place of Israel? Can you explain for us what you mean?

So you are saying suicide bombings are justified? By that logic then you must agree with eye for an eye punishment?

Edit to add I say give Palestine their state, including the west bank. Then once the terrorism does not stop, declare war against the state.

Oh Gee. Now if we had stayed out of the Six Day war, Israel would be an islamic state by now. Before we started supplying them with weapons, they had nothing. They would have lost for sure.

Wrong. Harboring terrorists justifies bulldozing houses and the idiots standing in the way. You make it sound like Israel arbitrarily picks a neighborhood to start bulldozing because it's "National Bulldozing Day".

The reasons Israel bulldozes houses and neighborhoods is to flush out the terrorists trying to kill them. The Paelestinian people protect, harbor, and hide these terrorists because they hate Jews more than than they love their own lives. When the Palestinians start helping in ridding their land of terrorists, Israel would have no right to bulldoze houses to flush them out. Until then, I hope they level the entire area to get rid of every murderous scumbag hiding in those neighborhoods.

Bulldozing houses saves Palestinian lives. Collateral damage from missle retaliations is much higher. The Palestinian should be thankful the Israelis respect their lives more than they do themselves.

They didn't fight to win the country to begin with, and in every case where Israel has gone to war, they've done so in nice, new US-built warplanes, with US-built weapons, paid for by US money in the form of massive foreign aid packages. Israel gets millions per person living in Israel per year from the US. What do we get in return?

If they had to actually finance their own wars, fight in their own home-built fighters/tanks/whatever without any help from the outside, they'd get slaughtered.

Dont be ridiculous, where have I ever said that suicide bombings are justified? Im sick of having people make this leaps of logic to twist my words around.



Uh...Just because the Israeli government says they are bulldozing houses of terrorists doesnt make it so. They bulldoze homes of families, and if Israel is such a democracy, then why not arrest the suspects and put them on trial, instead of killing other people?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0113-04.htm



I guess leaving Arabs homeless is OK though...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0322-02.htm



But I guess those homes and health clinics are harboring terrorists, and the Palestinians dont really need them anyways.



Same article. All those civilians? Terrorists.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1001-05.htm


All those kids that Isreal could have spared? Terrorists.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0902-03.htm

This is an article saying that Israel is fairly racist towards its Arav population.



But thats OK because all those Arabs are terrorists.



Call me stupid, but I fail to see how killing Palestinians actually doesnt kill them. Exactly where does the respect come from, when collateral damage is disgustingly high with the IDF?

Now before anyone tells me I am merely ignoring the Palestinian violence against Isreal, Im telling you I hardly condone it in anyway. But there is a HUGELY disprorationate amount of random killing on the Israeli side, and well..I sympathize more with the Palestinians. After decades of repression, and being told they would be granted statehood and then having it refused, what else do you expet to happen? Israel has always used ONE excuse to kill people, and thats terrorism. It weakens their legitimate attacks (if such a thing can possibly be said) against terrorism. Hate begets more hate, and killing does not solve the problem on either side.

Please substantiate with credible sources your claim of disproportionate random killings.

Ever hear of a Galil assault rifle? How about a Merkava-3 Main battle Tank? Greenpine radar system and Phalcon airborne early warning systems? Kfir and Arava aircraft, the Ramta light armored car, Gabriel antiship missiles?
They are all very competitive with their US equivalents. I think they'd do just fine.

Never let facts get in the way of good rhetoric I always say

I would say that Isreal has done very well in making weapons, and for that matter, WMD- and our hypocrisy goes very deep here- we have NOT insisted on inspections on Isreal have we? Another reason our motives are questioned among the Palestenians and why we have no credibility, we run willy-nilly to any country that we don't agree with and question WMD- but one country that no one doubts will certainly use nukes if threatened is Isreal!

I think one thing DTOM and GA wont or don't recognize is both the desperation of the palestenians that commit suicide bombings, and the fact that many americans placed in the same untenable situation would do the same. If, for hypothetical conversation, the Chinese came up with a super weapon that allowed them to invade and take over the US without us having a hope of defense against, and the only method of making thier life miserable is to commit suicide bombing against "civilians", you can bet there would be a line forming to join the "freedom fighters"- War is hell, and it naturally evolves into forms we (hopefully) hate more and more, due to the desperation of those in the weaker position.

I believe you are greatly underestimating the intelligence and heart of the American people. Most of us would not become suicide bombers if we were put (our intelligence intact) in the same situation as the Palestinians.
Most of us would understand that to come to a peaceful agreement we have to be flexible and not have hatred in our hearts. The Palestinians do what they do because it is what they are taught from a young age - to hate the Jews.
They are led to believe that the Jews are responsible for their troubles in life. They are not told about the beautiful lifestyle that their leader is living, on the money intended for them. They are not told that they could actually have a decent
life, with a lot of value and happiness, if they would sit down and make some concrete agreements, that will not be broken by the acts of their vicious leaders. They are fed garbage, they are used and abused by thee ones they trust the most. What the Palestinians don't know is that their biggest enemy lies within. .

The sources I quoted already not credible enough?

DP- are you kidding here? Americans are possibly the most bloodthirsty poeple on the planet- "bomb them back to the stone age"- "Kill them all and let God sort them out"- "See strange new lands, meet interesting new poeple, and kill them"- " Kill a Commie for Christ"- "Kill a liberal, save a gun"

I grew up in the Fundalmentalist Christian movement- far larger portion of the population of Americans than of Palestenians- I have no doubt they would be lining up!

And do you think they speak for the majority of the United States population? No. Some people think peace. Remember those anti-war demonstrators?

Yes, I also remember the pro-war demonstrators who wanted to shoot, run over and beat up the anti-war demonstrators. I think CruisingRam has it right, Americans are pretty bloodthirsty, but most of them don't stop to think about the consequences of their bloodthirsty cries. To most, it's all a videogame or movie.

All of your sources are from commondreams.org, which is not bad, except they are simply republishing editorials.

I'm talking statistics. I want to see the numbers where Israel is disproportional targeting Palestinians at random as you have claimed. After all, you use these figures to justify your stance for the Palestinians and the basis of our disagreement.

Most (if not all) are opposed to any violence in that region. On both sides. And maybe there are times when Israel's retaliation is too strong. But Israel does not simply take up a couple tanks and bulldozers to start leveling neighborhoods because it's a nice day for it. It's always a response to the carnage Palestinians inflict upon Jewish 4 year olds and their mommies.

Many people think abortion is murder. Many, myself included, think our abortion rate is genocide. But does that give someone the right to blow up abortion clinics or kill doctors and their families to save lives? NO! We would NEVER tolerate this in our society and Paul Hill is proof of this. Our society will retaliate against those that choose to act uncivilized. And that's what Israel does.

I actually posted 3 news articles, and one editorial.

As for wanting stats, theres arent any that I can find because Israel will always have an answer for the killing it does, but the Washington Post did publish the numbers who have died on each side from 9/00 to 12/02

And how do you think all those Galil rifles and Merkava-3 tanks and Greenpine radar systems and Phalcon early warning systems and Kfir and Arava aircraft and Ramta armored cars and Gabriel missiles were paid for?

Here's some more "good rhetoric" for you.

Mideast Policy Council has daily statistics on the deaths on each side.

B'T selem is an Israeli human rights organization that has statistics on the people killed by the Israeli side of the issue. It's a valuable resource, because it often lists why a Palestinian was killed and if s/he attacked first.

It's obviously very difficult to find non-biased sources in this debate, and I find it bizarre that people pick a side of the conflict and stick to it when both sides are perpetuating the violence and both sides have some valid arguments and some useless rhetoric.

It's really not a black and white issue. Israel is guilty of human rights abuses, and the Palestinians are guilty of suicide bombings. Israel has valid claims to the land and so do the Palestinians. They can't live together because the hatred has been building for so long, but they can't live apart either, because it's not right to ask either party to leave. It's all wrong on both sides of the issue, and I don't know that there's anything that can be done to stop the violence.

The arab rejection of a u.n. resolution to carve the british controlled "Palestine" into two states one israeli - one arab has led to this situation, not an israeli rejection. The west bank was long controlled by Jordan, which was not very fond of governing the palestinians. The Israelis only control the West Bank now due to the Arab War against the Israelis in 1967. It was Egypt and the rest of the Arabs (due to their treaties to defend each other and the need to silence the anti-israeli arab street) that led to Israeli control of the predominately West Bank. The Israelis offered much to Arafat including most of the west bank but Arafat walked away (since in his view there should be no Israel at all.). With all of that said I see no reason what so ever that the Israelis should be considered the "bad guys" here nor should the average Palestinian however the Palestinian leadership which kills jewish children in coffee houses and has started the intifada (which has led to a disproportionate poverty and loss of life of Palestinians - who before the intifada were some of the most well off Arabs in the entire middle east) is largely to blame. With that said Palestians and Israelis are suffering because of Arafat's obsession with terrorism in opposition to peace and democracy. This is foolish. It is my feelings that Israel should use all possible means of destroying the terrorist infrastructure that operates and should offer its hand of peace to any Palestinians willing to step up in a leadership role that will fight for peace. The United States and especially the Europeans (since this mostly is a result historically of colonialism anyway) should be doing their best to make sure that the Israeli's live up to its obligations as a freedom loving democracy to the Palestinians and that the Palestinians end terrorism.

Ah yes the desperate palestinians....If they can't see that blowing up women and children on buses and in cafe's won't lead to peace and stability, then I wouldn't exactly call them members of MENSA.

Of course if we, as a sovereign, democratic nation were to be invaded, there would be plenty of freedom fighters. We're just not stupid enough to blow ourselves up on purpose for no apparent gain.

Wertz, I never claimed we haven't given Israel scads of cash, we're hardly the first world power to do so for an ally.

Using an Apache helicopter to take out Hamas does tend to cause collateral damage, which is unacceptable in all cases. But, Israel does not intentionally target civilians, and if they do, it is accidental. Whereas Hamas targets anyone who is Israeli

They arent targeting civilians intentionally, but if they do target civilians intentionally its accidental? Which is it?

And I beg to differ. Ive already posted a link citing a study that Israel is incredibly biased against their Arab population, and that police officers are negligent in their duties to curb violence against Arabs.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/..._Casualties.asp

This has a good breakdown of civilians killed on both sides, and whether or not they were killed by other civilians. Total Palestinians (civilian and security) killed by Israeli defense forces: 3399
Israeli total: 251

Although that is just for the occupied territories, and if we add the stats that include the state of Israel the killing of Israeli civilians and security comes to:861
Palestinians:3478

This does not include a count of civilians killing other civilians (although the stats are listed) But to deny that the numbers are justified is ludicrous. Thats nearly FOUR TIMES the number of Palestinians killed, civilian and security. And most people are saying thats OK, because Israel is fighting terrorists.

And just for those who cant seem to believe that Israel demolishes houses to punish the Palestinians:
http://www.btselem.org/English/House_Demol.../Statistics.asp

Well, I've asked for credible stats and figures only to be told "there are none" from unbiased sources. I've listened to the "Israelis are perpetrators" as if, during a period of no violence, Israel began attacking. I've listened to "disproportionate random killings by Israelis". I'm surprised we haven't blamed Israel for Windows security flaws.

Anyway, I was mulling around looking for bits and pieces on the subject when I stumbled upon this website.

International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism
specifically, about a third down the page is a link called "An Engineered Tragedy Statistical Analysis of Casualties in the Palestinian". You need to hit that link because going to it does not change the address in the browser (at least in mine anyway). So, there was nothing I could copy and paste.

Note, this is not light reading. It is detailed analysis.

Anyhow, they have no dog in the hunt and have made every effort to deal with data. Among their conclusions, in statistical detail:

1)Almost 1900 Palestinians have been killed since the start of the “al-Aqsa Intifada”, compared to almost 700 Israelis. Numbers like these are used to create an image of lopsided slaughter, with Israel cast as the villain. But such numbers distort the true picture: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel.
2)Women and girls account for 31 percent of all Israelis killed in the conflict, and almost 40 percent of the Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians. Palestinian fatalities, in contrast, have been consistently and overwhelmingly (over 95 percent) male; even when combatants (almost all of whom have been male) are removed from consideration, just 8 percent of Palestinians killed by Israel have been female.
3) The fact that Palestinian deaths caused by Israeli actions do not, as a rule, follow the same pattern would seem to undermine claims that Israel deliberately targets Palestinian civilians.


And here's what the summary is in a nutshell:



This report is highly scientific and any subjectivity is included in the statistics. This report is overwhelming and as typical, under-reported. I don't know how anybody could read this report and not see the true picture of what is going on over there. The Palestinians are targeting and killing innocents and the Israelis retaliate, to the best of their ability, against terrorists.

DR, it is quite difficult to find unbiased sources on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It's been skewed on both sides, and it appears to me that the cause has been adopted by people outside of the conflict in a very partisan manner, as well...ie the right praises Israel and the left praises Palestine.

Thank you for the link. It is a good source, although I don't understand how you can look at it and deduce that:



The numbers of non-combatant casualties are too high on both sides of the issue for that to be true. I agree that the disproportionate number of Palestinians killed as compared to the Israelis is often represented without taking note of who was innocent and who was a combatant, but in the same way that you accuse other posters of blaming Israel for everything, including Windows security flaws, it sounds like you are doing the same with the Palestinians. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The numbers are unambiguous. If you took the time to read the data thoroughly, there is no other conclusion other than the Palestinians are targeting and killing innocents and the Israelis retaliate, to the best of their ability, against terrorists.

Is the killing on both sides too high? Of course it is! But that's what blowing up busloads of woman and children will do. And the numbers, once again, show EXACTLY that. Most of these "innocent" Palestinians aren't innocent. Many of these Palestinian casualties are a result of their own damn people killing them.

It's unbelievable to me that a person could see the figures, in black and white, and deterimine Israel needs to do more when presented conclusive proof they are doing far more than they are being given credit for. Of course they could do better. But it needs to start with the Palestinians - that's where the imbalance is.

If Sharon would calm down, we might get somewhere in Palestine to start. Two wrongs don't make a right.