nighttimer & goamerica - this topic is not about Bin Laden & our involvement in Afghanistan. Let's stick to the topic, please:

QUOTE

The Occupation of Iraq: support or pull out?

I guess it doesn't occur to you that we already ARE being attacked by terrorists in Iraq every single day. Your fear mongering has no effect on me. I'm willing to take my astronomically low chances of being killed in a terrorist attack at home if it will mean we stop losing a couple soldiers per day in Iraq. Not to mention the ones that are coming home without limbs or suffering from DU poisoning or post traumatic stress. I'm willing to take my chances rather than allow any more innocent civilians to die in my place. At last count Iraq's civilian casualties more than doubled the number we lost on 9/11. Not that they had anything to do with it in the first place...but they have suffered far more than we have.

I'm not sure why you think we are safer at home because we are carrying out a war thousands of miles away. There were terror cells in Germany, France, and the US after 9/11...according to Sen. Graham we still have a huge amount right here at home. You can travel the globe and kill all the Arab's you want but the chances of another attack on US soil does not diminish. The only way to combat that problem (instead of make it worse as we are now) is by stricter border patrol and immigration services. And by having much much better intelligence than Bush used to invade Iraq or prepare for 9/11 in the first place. Too bad we can't afford to upgrade those things because this ridiculous war is bleeding us of every cent.

And don't forget that while we continue to side track our efforts, our money, and our strength, bin Laden goes about his business planning our next attack so that Bush and Cheney can chase oil and reconstruction contracts in Iraq.

Jaime, with all due respect, I don't think I was engaging in a separate debate about Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden as much as I was trying to illustrate that becoming enmeshed in a war of attrition in Iraq is complicated by the unfinished business of finding bin Laden and creating a stable government in Iraq.

The morass of Iraq is very much connected with the nation building being attempted in Afghanistan. President Bush in a speech last week spoke of how he would not allow "terrorism" against the U.S. in Iraq deter us from our efforts to create a democracy there.

That refrain sounds very familiar to me as Afghanistan has faded from the public consciousness.

Your probably right, but can I see a link that shows that Iraq is now the FOCAL point of islamic terrorism.

In regards to the initial question: "Support or pull out?" I would say we should stay.

Theres unfortunately not much we can do about that. We're going to have to stay because we made a commitment. Lets just get a democracy going and pull out. Now, if only the Bush administration had made ANY steps to start a democracy...

*Edited for Spelling

You mean beside this rather recent bit of news?:


Iraqis given more say as cabinet is named
..and the fact that much of Iraq has local democratic Iraqi governance already...

A council.... set up by foreign leaders... which has done little to nothing.....

Is getting us closer to democracy?

Granted its a step forward, but a very, very small one. What about the government, how will that work? Will laws be changed? What laws? Will there be a president? Will it remain a council? How will the voting system work, popular or electorial? Will there be representatives?

Hand picking out a bunch of people and calling them a council does not seem like a huge advance in democracy. When the council starts controlling most of Iraqs operations (show me if they are already!), I will be slightly more impressed.

Perhaps you misunderstood. The council is not the achievement I referred to, rather that the council appointed the Iraqi cabinet which is set top take over most of the non-major duties in the country as well as the quite major control of the Iraqi police forces. Not democracy just yet, but Iraqi control...
The council also appointed a constitutional committee.

IRAQI GOVERNING COUNCIL MEMBER COMMENTS ON ARAB TOUR, CONSTITUTION

So obviously, with the progress you are stating, we should stay. If we leave, we let all that we have set up in the way of gov't crumble and return to Baathist rule or rule of Iranian Theocracy

OK...so the US handpicked Iraqi council handpicked another group of people that are to be put in charge of various ministries in Iraq. I'm still not seeing anything near a democratic voice of the people coming through. Yes it's nice that they are giving a bunch of people a title and saying they are in charge of this ministry or that...but eight of the chosen ministers couldn't even be sworn in since they were out of the country.

How much do you want to bet that's because they are another group of exiled Iraqi's who were waiting in the wings until it was safe enough to return and claim whatever high level positions they had already been promised by the US before the war. Even if that's not the case it will be what most people will assume anyway.

It was a nice gesture...unfortunately it's about two or three months too late to make any difference now but like someone said, it's a step.

What makes you think a democratic process is so easy to establish in a country like Iraq? Sometimes the lack of patience you exhibit is baffling. I'm sure we'd all love to see a quick resolution so we can free our troops for their next mission, but some things take time. Patience is a virtue, and will eventually be rewarded.

In the meantime, those calling for our withdrawl should be mindful that even Howard Dean and John Kerry don't support that position.

Patience? Patience for what?

Waiting for the dancing in the streets and cries of jubilation when we liberated the people of Iraq?

Here's a news flash: Didn't happen.

And it ain't gonna happen. Instead, they are killing one soldier a day and wounding 10. And before we start with the "Well, it's safer than the streets of Chicago" rhetoric, Chicago doesn't have 20 million people.

The Iraqis don't want us there. We are occupiers. It's that plain and simple. They don't care about politics or the rest of the world. They care about water and electricity. And we've taken that from them.

So, Bush may want patience, but the people of the world and people of Iraq have none. Bush did not have a plan on the possibility that we'd be looked at as invaders instead of liberators. Bush did not have a plan to restore water and electricity immediately. Bush did not have a plan to restore law and order immediately.

This isn't a question about patience. Patience includes monitoring the progress of a well thought out plan. And there is none. He's making it up as he goes along because nothing, I repeat NOTHING has happened consistent with all the blather before invading. There are no WMD's so we revised that to weapons programs. The scientists, Tariq Aziz, and the whole friggin' card deck can't point out WMD to save their own a$$. Bush rejected the UN as irrelevant when he decided to get the coalition of the stupid (Cameroon, etc) and remove that immediate threat of our destruction, only to find out there never was a threat and now needs the UN because <gasp>, they were right and we don't have the resources to follow through what we originally planned.

The UN is severely weakened because of Bush, Blair will lose his job because of Bush, our economy is going further in the toilet because Cameroon can't bail us out economically (who would've known?) while we pour billions of dollars into the stinkhole called Iraq, the troops hate Bush, Iraq, and everything associated with this mess, Bush will become a one term president when he was in the drivers seat to be one of the best presidents ever, and now, the democrats will have an amazingly easy time getting the presidency, senate, and house because of koolaid drinking partisans that can't face reality.

In the meantime, more Americans will be getting killed while the world gets more dangerous everyday because we just figured out, of all things, we don't have the resources to be the world cop we thought we could be.

And you want what?

What makes you think the Iraquis even *WANT* a democracy? Did anyone ask? Nope, but Bush is going to make the unofficial 52nd state whether they want it or not. We have no time for patience, not when 10 billion dollars a month is going into Iraq. It's money we don't have to waste on this political boondoggle. King George the Conquerer needs to be dethroned.

Newsflash: They did celebrate.



That is true. They don't want us there anymore. They want to handle the country themselves. We care about them getting their water and electricity back.

May I ask why these statements are excepted as fact without any evidence?

I would have though an American soldier killed a day, 10 wounded, and Bush going to the UN for help would provide a fair amount of substantiation as to why they might not want us there. Not to mention the Iraqi people we just recently put in charge telling us to get out. Besides that, you're right - I got nothing.

That "big celebration" involved about 200 people. Out of 20 million. And many of those were bussed in a day before the US hit the streets of Bagdad.

Casualties happen in war. Even Post-War. Germany, Japan, Afghanistan: Same thing



Maybe in the collapse of Saddam's statue, but there was celebration country wide in Iraq.



Do you have evidence of this accusation?

Sorry about my impatience...perhaps another six months of un-necessary death and destruction is all democracy needs to flourish. My position has never changed and that is that democracy does not grow out of bombs, invasion, lies, and a hostile occupation...that kind of environment breeds resistance, fundamentalism, hatred, despair, guerilla warfare and terrorism.

Newsflash: 12 guys jumping around for the camera does not indicate a nationwide celebration. Celebrating nations don't tend to kill the people they're supposedly celebrating. I'd like to see an unbiased, independent survey of a wide cross-section of Iraquis to see just how welcome the US really is.



We care about getting their oil wells running again and filling up US tankers. Do you think when US troops finally leave Iraq, Halliburton is going to pack up and go home too?

When pigs fly.

Sure, but my mistake. They weren't bussed in. They were flown in. In any case, that entire "liberation celebration" was staged.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/159845...451_comment.php

Excuse my nitpicking but that proves nothing regarding public opinion in Iraq. It doesn't take a substantial amount of the population's support to perform hit-and-run attacks on coalition troops. As for the councilman's statement, you might want to consider the timing. His brother (or what was left of him) was being buried. Perhaps we should look at what he said after he had time to calm down...


Iraqi Official Foreswears Attacking U.S.
A certain degree of frustration, but not a "get out or else statement". He still plans to works the coalition and give them time...

DR,
I would hate to think you have based your argument on a thread from DemocraticUnderground.com (where it seems Indymedia got their info). Thats about as a reliable news source as Pravda or FreeRepublic. The photo involved proves nothing, and there is just about as much speculation that the different photos of Chalabi span a couple of years.
Of course we flew in Iraqi Freedom Forces and exiles, you wouldn't have wanted native born Iraqi's to assist your efforts?
Nobody has proven that any portion of the liberation was staged, they have simply second guessed camera angles to support their agenda.



On edit: Cephus..every major news organization in the world has been and is still in Iraq. Photoshop and camera angles can work both ways by the way, depending on who is doing the spin.

I'd have to go looking for it again (I lost my bookmarks when I had to reinstall my OS a couple weeks ago), but I saw a very convincing breakdown of some of the pictures used by the media were, in fact, doctored with Photoshop. The exact same groups of people were copied and pasted in place, there was one guy who appeared at least 6 times. And of course, most of the people who appeared were identified as US citizens dressed up in Iraqui garb.

There is no credible evidence that the Iraqui people want us to be there and Bush isn't allowing anyone in there to verify the story he's telling.

Perhaps, but there isn't a lot of media indication that they want us there.

Going back to the initial occupation and claiming it was staged is really grasping for straws. If we 'staged' that one, we could've 'staged' a whole lotta more celebrations.

I have no doubt they were happy to be rid of Saddam. As far as welcoming the US they offered polite warnings in the beginning such as, "Thank you, now go home". Which was more than we deserved after we had already made several key blunders.

The first omen of what kind of idiots were running the show came when Rumsfeld dismissed the cries of people asking him to do something about the immediate lootings that began once we 'secured' Baghdad. To him it was no big deal that they were looting homes and businesses, or hospitals, or known weapons areas that he failed to secure, or any ministry they so desired. 'Freedom's messy'. He failed to recognize the beginnings of a serious issue of law and order that is still a problem today and one of the biggest complaints from the Iraqi people.

All of our available security had already parked itself around the oil ministry and there it sat. While the world was watching and waiting for us to prove our intentions we didn't let them down from day one. Our priorities have been clear ever since.

Next we refused to let the UN come and finish their inspections. Day by day WMD's become less important to the US and the UK who spent so much energy trying to convince the world they were there and they were dangerous. I guess they simply forgot what they came for. No explanation for this refusal to cooperate was ever offered and it continues even today.

Then the famous and never ending failure to restore electricity and water even to it's prewar levels. With the money and time they've already squandered don't expect another $60b dollar package to do anything but guarantee the same lack of results and long term 'need' to stay in Iraq and 'finish the job'. With a job and employer that paid so much and was willing to settle for so little I'd never want it to end either.

The next major mistake was turning 430,000 potential security and intelligence sources into a 430,000 group of various unemployed citizens with time on their hands to make kicking us out their new hobby...they are free to work on their efforts full time.

I love how Bremer is now saying the Iraqi people need to take on some of the responsibility for securing the country themselves...and how he's planning on hiring back some of the army he foolishly dissolved. Instead of handling it diplomatically he's making it sound like the fault of the Iraqi people for not doing enough to help. Must be another one of his smooth tricks to win hearts and minds.


This was followed by the next major mistake which alienated anyone that might be left willing to trust the US.


And that was how the East was lost. Everything since then has been out of the hands of the CPA and will continue to fail...but as long as the big corporate interests continue to reap huge profits thanks to supplementals that are never fully explained and as long as there is a total lack of oversight or demand for accountability the US will not allow the UN to come in and muck up such a profitable set up.

Nor will they admit they already failed no matter how many lives are lost. (Notice how they act like the number isn't very serious because it's not yet close to the losses we suffered in Viet Nam. At least that gives us an idea of how long it will be before they feel it's becoming a problem they can't ignore.)

Let's see....uncredible news site & from a message board runned by Democratic Underground. That's the sorriest excuse for proof i have ever seen.

But i can offer you proof of celebrating:
Celebration of the death of a regime



DANYA:



Actually it was more like "Bush, Bush, Thank you,":
Then it was: "Thank You, now leave" after a few weeks.

What news source can you trust or is not bias. I have had those "scientific" poles operators call me and ask questions, you are not allowed to answer those polls in any other fashion but how they want you. No news agency is going to tell you the truth. the closest you can get in my opinion is NPR, and that is still bias even with all of the viewpoints of the world, this includes republicans and conservatives.

If we were to base if we should stay or go from popular opinion, the answer from Iraq is leave. I have even heard that on news channels like c.n.n, which is almost moderate for a news channel.

We have a fragmented nation full of people looking for power in the vacuum, all kinds of groups of fighters that it seems we have no intelligence on, our troops cant protect themselves, the public, infrastructure or get anything done. Our leadership wants help from people it told to take a walk, and wants control, this is costing us so much money its not even funny, plus how many hundreds of billions the military budget already swallows every year.

There is nothing positive in any of this, the only thing that you an look forward to is the coalition admitting to there problem then trying to use Iraq to rebuild the international community, that’s all there is, i still vote to pull out.

I say pull out. I can care less about thousands of Iraqi citzens who will suffer. We are not their on a mission of liberation and peace, we are there to topple their goverment and disarm Iraq. Mission accomplished, get the hell out of there. They obviously do not want us there, with our soldiers being shot getting drinks and even merely driving down the road. If we stay there we are only inviting another Vietnam . It has already begun with mild guerrilla attacks from "loyalists". We are not the world police, they wanted their own country and now they have it. If we need more time to set-up a puppet goverment or whatever, fine, but we should pull out as soon as possible.

It has been speculated that continued presence in Iraq will attract conflict rather than diminish it. Let's face it, the soldiers are being viewed as targets and their presence will escalate violence. Pulling out would save lives but politically would deliver a blow to the creditbility of the current administration.

The evidence suggests that we staged the celebration that got all the media attention. It was suggested in the media that there were other celebrations, but no video was ever shown of any of them. It simply wasn't necessary to truck these people all over the desert and have them jump in front of the camera.

Danya writes:


Absolutely. Rumsfeld's position was "it isn't our problem or responsibility". Of course it's your problem and responsibility, the US is an occupying army! EVERYTHING is our problem and responsibility! We were more interested in protecting the oil than the people. I think the only reason they finally started doing something is because they realized that sitting on their backsides would turn a few Saddam loyalists into millions of people dedicated to throwing our *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** out of the country.

How humanitarian of you. All i can say is thank God Bush or anyone else in the world arena does not share your view.

The Muslim world sees us treating Iraqis like crap, they get madder than they already are

For all of those voting that we pull out, I have a question: How will doing that have any positive effect on reducing terrorism? To the entire Muslim community, that would just make all their preconceived notions of why we went over there come true. We'd be worse off than when we went in--which would mean that everyone that died over there died for nothing--heck, less than nothing. Is that what you really want? The only way we can achieve a positive outcome is to stay the course, and continue (start?) the rebuilding. Doing so will completely undermine all the terrorist rhetoric, and open the eyes of the common populace in the Middle East to the fact that everything they've been told about America isn't true. Leaving now would jsut add credence to all those sentiments, creating even more incentive for terrorist activity.

The Muslim world hated us before we invaded, they hated us even more when we invaded and they hate us still more every minute we spend on their soil. To simply pull out and leave the Iraquis holding the bag isn't a good idea, but getting out as soon as possible and turning over complete control to the Iraqui people should be out goal.

Of course, we'll never do that. The oil is far too important to us. We're not interested in rebuilding Iraq, only in forming it in our own image so we have a foothold in the middle east. All we've done so far is prove that America is even worse than the stories said, that we're a powerhungry monster that takes what we want and expects everyone to fall in line or be squashed.

I don't really understand the tricks of the Bush administration about Iraq, and I'm not sure I want to know more than I already heard. The war was FABRICATED, it's an obvious fact. Intelligence was manipulated by politicians who couldn't care less... In my opinion, all the people who lied to your nation should be punished.

However, there is a situation in Iraq at the moment and the civilians are suffering from the chaos in the country. Do you really want to leave the Iraqi into anarchy? It seems that you want to pull out before the real difficulty even arises.

I don't recognize the America I know when I hear that. As much as I don't like the arrogance of some of you, I admire the courage of many in your nation.

You chose your own destiny with Iraq (or maybe your president decided for you), and now YOU HAVE A DUTY TO SUCCEED, for yourselves and for the millions of Iraqis in need for help.

It seems like everyone has a different opinion and that may be because no one can really predict what will happen. I just hope it end up all right. I support either pulling out or putting the UN in charge. I just do not trust Bush and the Pentagon to do the right thing.

I was watching Wolfowitz at hearing with the arms committee and I was troubled by the way he seems to be shifting the meaning of the war again. You would think being this stretched that the neo-con expansion plans would be on hold. But he keeps stressing 'democracy for the entire Middle East'. I hope he just means more work on Israel. But I don't trust him or any of them. I haven't for a long time but right now they make me even more nervous.

Ok....so.....many americans didn't see the oil profit as the original motivation before US troops were even sent into Iraq?? (Please tell me you're not serious.) And....how many are not seeing why we are still there, and will continue to be unless Bush is ousted in 2004? Who has overlooked who Bush gave all the reconstruction contracts to?
Graft, corruption, greed, death, lies and deception...not that they haven't always existed in this country; it's the very foundation the US was built upon (see 'Land Title Origins' by A. N. Chandler) - Bush has simply stepped up the pace, and lost any pretense of tact and the usual civilised veneer we deem acceptable. The insatiable money machine marches on; and with the corruption of our voting machines, the 'power' of US citizens to change an administration is waning alarmingly. ("Who votes does not matter - who counts the votes, wins." - Joseph Stalin)
The war in Iraq has only served to further inflame anti-US atitudes; and not necessarily unjustly. Our 'reputation' (translated as 'power to enforce, blackmail, negotiate, and bribe) is already severely damaged on a global scale; I do not think further actions should be decided on any but the most humanitarian levels, for the good of all involved.
But then again, that is rather like asking a cat to bark, isn't it?

Welcome, Incredulous - so....want to try answering the actual debate question?

As a foreigner, the most unsettling event I'm witnessing is the constant readaptation of American politicians to the context in Iraq. There's actually a striking contrast between the boldness of Bush and the changes of tone I've noticed in Rumsfeld and Powell's mouths over the past few weeks.

In many cases, the American administration which was set up in Iraq to raise the country has shown more abilities to react to chaos than actually acting to prevent it. Maybe the European media are partial about the actual progress that has been accomplished. Anyhow, the idea we get here in France is that the American administration doesn't have a clue about what to do next.

We need some clarity here.

If we pulled out now, it would be utter chaos and much much worse than ever expected. We need to hand Iraq over to UN control, and fund the clean up of our huge mess!

We've created an enemy in Iraq, not defeated one.