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ikeaboy69
Winner, Best Topic: International Debate 2003-2004


Not once have I seen any of the News organisations explain why Americans are more and more hated by the rest of the world. I think that would make an interesting story. Although 2 years back Newsweek asked "Why do they hate us?" written by Farheed Zahareji something or other, anyway in my opinion that article didn't tell the whole truth and the explanation the government has presented is so absurd it isn't worth mentioning. Are Americans isolating themselves? What do you think? hmmm.gif
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Grendel72
QUOTE(ikeaboy69 @ Sep 14 2003, 09:09 PM)
Not once have I seen any of the News organisations explain why Americans are more and more hated by the rest of the world. I think that would make an interesting story. Although 2 years back Newsweek asked "Why do they hate us?" written by Farheed Zahareji something or other, anyway in my opinion that article didn't tell the whole truth and the explanation the government has presented is so absurd it isn't worth mentioning. Are Americans isolating themselves? What do you think?  hmmm.gif

I honestly don't think it's "Americans" who are hated, it's our government and especially the current administration.
I think playing cowboy and stirring up a hornets nest with no idea of how to handle the outcome, the "with us or agin us" attitude exemplified by things like "freedom fries", and a general lack of respect for other cultures, has made us look bad. However, on an individual basis most "anti-American" foreigners are perfectly OK with us and understand that the actions of the administration don't reflect on all Americans.
nileriver
My two cents on the issue is that America is a superpower, we all know that, we have a massive economy, military and sway over foreign affairs from this. I think its just a result of how we use this power or what we do. When you elect a president in the u.s, you are electing a president that will have effects on peoples lives all over the world, not just the u.s. So in light of my opinion, hate or love i guess could come with the title, based on actions. I imagine the same focus has shown itself with all the super powers in history, we just have more rapid and better communication today, and the ability like me as of now to voice opinion and such in these mediums.
Paladin Elspeth
When we identify who "they" are, then it's easier for us to figure out why they dislike our country.

It is especially easy for countries that are comprised of a majority of poor people to despise us. On CNN the other day, a journalist was covering how Iraqis are managing to live with high unemployment. Many Iraqis sort through garbage. They pay the trash collectors for the garbage to sift through, where they look for things to repair and sell and possibly things to eat.

Most valuable by far is the garbage that comes from the Americans. They find more wasted food and items that may or may not need to be repaired before they can be sold.

Our greed and wastefulness are factors in the prejudice against Americans in general, and I know I'm also guilty.
GoAmerica
Good Question hmmm.gif

It's based on 3 reasons:
  • We support Israel
  • We have troops in Saudi Arabia, home of Mecca
  • It is burned into their brain by brainwashing propaganda by Arab State-Run newspapers and online news
Mostly it's because it is burned into their brains that "the west cannot be trusted" and that the Arab State-run news sources are more accurate than CNN. Also, Osama Bin Laden, who always preaches his garbage, somehow convinces young muslims that we are evil and that we have declared war on Islam

And Grendel, it's not because of our current administration. It's because of Osama convincing the young muslims who don't know better that we are attacking Islam and not just terrorists. Also, we have been attacked by Osama's gang during the Clinton Administration so i don't think you can blame just Bush for the hatred.
Curmudgeon
QUOTE(Paladin Elspeth @ Sep 14 2003, 11:10 PM)
When we identify who "they" are, then it's easier for us to figure out why they dislike our country.

It is especially easy for countries that are comprised of a majority of poor people to despise us. On CNN the other day, a journalist was covering how Iraqis are managing to live with high unemployment. Many Iraqis sort through garbage. They pay the trash collectors for the garbage to sift through, where they look for things to repair and sell and possibly things to eat.

Most valuable by far is the garbage that comes from the Americans. They find more wasted food and items that may or may not need to be repaired before they can be sold.

Our greed and wastefulness are factors in the prejudice against Americans in general, and I know I'm also guilty.

This is by no means a new phenomenon.

A high school history teacher told us what it was like to be part of the occupying army in Europe after WWII. "If we were hungry, we'd enter a house, eat the food off the table, and throw the dirty dishes out the window."

In 1964, a college professor was telling my class what it had been like when he was a soldier in S. Korea. A local had been hired as a chauffeur for 10 cents a week to drive the jeep for them. One evening, as he was driving them back from the movies, one of the soldiers in the jeep tossed a partially eaten bag of popcorn from the movies onto the side of the road. The driver stopped, walked back, picked it up and proceeded on. The soldier tried to apologize for littering. "No apology is needed." They were told. "American garbage sells at a premium. This bag of popcorn though, and an orange, is what I have to feed my family tonight."
CruisingRam
I have only my own personal life experiance when I was backpacking around the world to fall back on. Now, backpackers from any country are usually a tad counter-conformist and likely to try to "go local" in any country they enter, which is what I of course did. I was always ashamed to see my fellow Americans that were traveling "high" (staying in hotels, doing the tourist thing) and see thier arrogance and nastiness while in anothers country (though my german fellow backpackers would argue that they were more embarrased than I)- but many times I heard an American asking a local to talk english, or in France or other countries talking about how we "saved" them in WW2- Lord how I got tired of hearing this- or the worst was in third world countries, having the US women look down thier noses at the females in other countries for being "subserviant"- which, when you got to know many of them, they certainly were not! I think in many countries our own superiority complex where we are guests have a lot to do with it!

BTW- my travelles were in 1985-86- Reagan was still prez and he was personally hated everywhere, but from what I saw, they were in love with a major portion of american pop culture, especialy fashion, movies and music. It was everywhere, even when it was illegal!
unabomber
"they" (as in not americans I assume) hate us for a couple reasons:

1)say you were a 10 year old boy in the gaza strip, now let's say you have a few friends, now say one gets hit by shrapnel from an extrajudicial killing, on that shrpnel it reads "MADE IN USA" would you not like us? (this applies all over the globe where atrocities happened we contributed to (by giving people weapons)

2)overthrowing (or supporting overthrows) of democratically elected and legittimate governments. here are a few examples:
  • 1953, Iran
    the lawfully elected Mossadegh government decided in 1951 to nationalise the Anglo Iranian Oil company. In august 1953, a people’s referendum confirms this with a 99.4 majority. Two weeks later, the CIA trained and controlled officer corps overthrows the government. The previously British oil companies are taken over by a US consortium. The US return the Shah to the country and to power and annihilate the Iranian democracy.
  • 1954, Guatemala
    The CIA organises a coup to overthrow the lawful Arbenz- government, who as part of the land reform wanted to nationalise the US company “United fruit company”. Under the rule of the US installed military dictatorship, 140,000 indios are killed or vanish without trace.
  • 1956, Egypt
    US government and CIA want to destabilise the government of president Nasser, who has become a leader of the block- free (ie non- aligned) countries. in July 1956 they withdraw their loan for the assuan dam, a project central to the development of the Egyptian agriculture. As a consequence, Nasser announces the nationalisation of the suez- canal, in order to use the fees generated by the canal for the Egyptian economy. Britain, France and Israel attack Egypt. At the tail end of the Suez- crisis, the US occupy the leading role which had previously been held by Britain.
  • 1965,Indonesia
    operation “arc light”. The army, whose commanders are controlled by the CIA, is moved against the anti- imperialist president sukarno. When the leftist “popular front”, the strongest supporters of the president, tries to take power from the army leadership, a long planned “counter-strike” is executed. Hundreds of thousands of sukarno followers are murdered. Sukarno is replaced by suharto, a loyal follower of the US.
  • 1970- 73
    in 1970, the candidate of the “unidad popular” Salvador Allende, wins the presidential elections. When the commander of the Chilean army, René Schneider, resists American pressure to stage a military coup, he is killed by a CIA- organised commando. After 3 years of sabotage and de- stabilising activities, schneider’s successor general pinochet, carries out the CIA coup. President Allende is murdered, and the football stadium is turned into a prison for tens of thousands of Allende supporters of the democratic president. Thousands of activists of left wing parties and unionists are chased and killed by death- squads. US foreign minister kissinger comments: “ I cannot see why we should allow a country to become communist, only because it’s population is of unsound mind.”
  • 1981- 85, Nicaragua
    financed mainly by profits from the arms deals with Iran, the US builds and maintains an army in Nicaragua, which consists mainly of members of the army of the previous dictator Somoza. These several thousand “contras” are used in contravention of an explicit direction of US congress. Additional sources of finance for the CIA are drug profits: the US pilots fly weapons in, and on their way back take drugs out. In 1986 the international court in den haag finds that the paramilitary actions of the US were contravening international law.
  • 1983, grenada
    operation urgent fury. The US attack the small central American country, liquidate the Marxist government and install a regime of their choice. Over 400 grenadians and 84 cubans, mostly construction workers, are killed
and more:
Chronicle of the violence of US foreign policy since 1945
A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS
MSN groups: Know your enemy: A Timeline of CIA Atrocities

gee, I wonder why so many people hate the US and our government!?!?!? unsure.gif couldn't be that we keep messing with peoples countries, now could it? nah, must be because were "free" and they simply HATE "freedom" rolleyes.gif
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(ikeaboy69 @ Sep 14 2003, 07:09 PM)
Are Americans isolating themselves? What do you think?   hmmm.gif

No, American's are not isolating themselves.
What other country in the world is so fixated on the rest of the world's opinion of them? Do you think the average French person cared whether or not Americans liked them? I doubt it. They live their lives, and we obsess over world perception.

I disagree with CruisingRam about American behavior overseas as well. Americans can be rude, but certainly no more than the average European (friends who have traveled to Muslim countries tell me it is worse over there- those were Italian friends). I would say they are friendlier by far, and most definitely more polite.
GoAmerica
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 15 2003, 03:29 AM)
I have only my own personal life experiance when I was backpacking around the world to fall back on. Now, backpackers from any country are usually a tad counter-conformist and likely to try to "go local" in any country they enter, which is what I of course did. I was always ashamed to see my fellow Americans that were traveling "high" (staying in hotels, doing the tourist thing) and see thier arrogance and nastiness while in anothers country (though my german fellow backpackers would argue that they were more embarrased than I)- but many times I heard an American asking a local to talk english, or in France or other countries talking about how we "saved" them in WW2- Lord how I got tired of hearing this- or the worst was in third world countries, having the US women look down thier noses at the females in other countries for being "subserviant"- which, when you got to know many of them, they certainly were not! I think in many countries our own superiority complex where we are guests have a lot to do with it!

Some of us can be rude and snotty snobs to our friends overseas but they certainly do not represent a majority of our nation.

I think it is less snobness and more cultural/Foriegn Policy that makes people hate us the most. We have things in our culture such as lots of sex/nudity, which is frowned on by the muslim community and they see it as a corrupter when it tries to squeeze into their society. Take the Saudi Arabia/Barbie doll thing. Saudis: Barbies a "threat to morality" (I know this is from Rense.com, but the article was taken from news.com/au) The Saudis see the Barbie doll as "Jewish Barbie dolls, with their revealing clothes and shameful postures, accessories and tools are a symbol of decadence to the perverted West." God, this looks like something that came from The Onion! In our Foriegn Policy, it's obviosuly Israel and our presense in Saudi Arabia
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Cephus
We are hated because our government, especially lately, seems to think that we run the planet and can tell every other country what to do. If we don't like you, we invade your country, try to kill your leaders, cause massive destruction, disrespect your beliefs and culture...

Hell, I'd hate us too!
Billy Jean
I agree with Cephus. Before WW2, we were an isolationist nation and since we became a "world power" we have become somewhat of a megalomaniac society and have delusions of grandeur that we are the saviours of the world and have a massive superiority complex that offends a majority of the world. Until recently they've kept quiet about it and we've always gotten our way because we "saved the world from fascism" and we continue to hold that over everyone's head. Now since the USSR is pretty much out of the picture, we've created a false sense of security and supremacy which 2 years ago was blown to kingdom come.

No one likes a bully and especially a bully who's oblivious to the fact that we're doing more harm than good. dry.gif
Hobbes
My. my, my--it sounds like much of the America hating happens within our own borders crying.gif.

This phenomenon has nothing to do with the current administration--it existed long before then. Yes, even during the Clinton years (unless you think those were just shots of joy the Somalians or Bosnians were firing). As pointed out above, the answer varies depending on who 'they' are. To assume it is only those in the Middle East who feel this way is missing the mark by a long shot.

I think the biggest factor comes primarily from our status as a super-power (and, in recent years, the ONLY superpower). Being put in such a situation will naturally cause dissent--either for things we did, or for things we didn't do. Other countries don't get this treatment, because everyone understands they're not in a position to do anything. So, they get off Scot free (where does this saying come from, anyway?).

I would also have to agree that American's behaviour around the world doesn't help things either. We do tend to be pretty arogant, as a whole. I think a lot of this arrogance comes from our general ignorance of other cultures. Most Americans, even those in governmental positions of power, know next to nothing about other cultures, their values, or their way of life. Yet, as superpower, we are put in the position of making decisions that affect these cultures and their people. So, we are making such decisions often from a position of ignorance of many of their effects. This is bound to lead to a lot of dissent around the world.

Just my 2 cents worth....
Paladin
Who is 'they?' If referring to Islamic fundamentalists, this email I received spells out their major gripes. Much of it boils down to a clash of civilizations, and their own religious intolerance.

QUOTE
Sunday November 24, 2002
 
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
 
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers)
who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is
Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]
 
"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve,
fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g.
Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the
plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]
 
Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis
are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some
of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others
which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and
warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.
 


EDIT: Sorry about that! smile.gif Read the rest here: Full Text of Bin Laden's letter to America
Amlord
QUOTE(Cephus @ Sep 15 2003, 11:27 AM)
We are hated because our government, especially lately, seems to think that we run the planet and can tell every other country what to do.  If we don't like you, we invade your country, try to kill your leaders, cause massive destruction, disrespect your beliefs and culture...

Hell, I'd hate us too!

When did we invade France, Germany, Turkey?

When were the leaders of China and Russia killed?

Let's try to keep some focus on reality.

The biggest problem is one of envy. The US is the big kid on the block. I liken it to sports...

Why is it when someone speaks about the Yankees they are either a huge Yankee fan or absolutely hate the Yankees? Rarely do you see sports fan with a blase attitude towards the Yankees. Why? Because they are without a doubt the most successful team in the Majors. Most people actually have an odd combination of admiration for the Yankees' success and rationalization for why it has happened. They win because the spend more money. Or they win because big name players want to play in NYC. Or because it is a big media town.

Why do people like the Yankees? Because they are winners, because they succeed. Because their success has endured the test of time.

Why do people hate the Yankees? Because they always win. Because they are better than "My Team". Because they continue to win. Because "My Team" looks bad in comparison.

The United States is the New York Yankees of the world.

If you look around, most people have a strong opinion one way or the other of the United States. Most people in other countries admire our success while at the same time rue their own lack of success (in comparison). The reasons are the same as the Yankees. But in order to "beat" the United States, to surpass or even catch up with our success, you can't just beat us "on the field". You have to knock us down

The US surpasses other countries on certain levels, but is certainly lacking in other areas. Instead of celebrating their own successes, other countries tend to focus on the negatives of the US or their own country's comparitive lack of success in the areas in which we excel. Similar to the Yankees, they rationalize why the US is so successful : They are successful because they bully others. They are so powerful because they hold others back.

It is hard to be both successful AND well-liked. The US and the Yankees are very good examples of this.

(I hate the Yankees...does that make me a hypocrite? hmmm.gif )
Julian
With some exaggeration for effect, (I'll leave you to guess how much mrsparkle.gif ) I'd say that in general, people hate America more than anything else because when America and Americans aren't ignoring the rest of the world, or behaving as if their crude pencil-sketch perceptions of other nations and peoples are hard-and-fast rules, their engagement with the rest of the world is always about America.

American news organisations and government agencies seem to be forever asking after "what do you think of America", which might indicate to outsiders that America's only concern is America.

Now, nobody blames Americans for putting America first. Everyone puts their own countries' concerns above those of elsewhere, just as individuals primarily look after number one.

However, like states, individuals sometimes find themselves in circumstances where the interests of other people are paramount, leading to them having to refrain from doing something, or to do some things they wouldn't otherwise do.

In individuals, popularity doesn't come from always putting the concerns of other before oneself - that more often leads to invisibility and contempt. Rather, it comes from willingly helping out when needed without imposing prior conditions that must be agreed to before help will be extended. It is enough to act in good faith, assuming that at some point a good turn will be repaid. Special affection will come from help that is extended when there is no benefit to the helper, or even when it causes them some pain or inconvenience.

Any individual who clearly has the resources to help, but refuses to do so unless it is on their terms, i.e. immediately to their advantage, and to the long term disadvantage of those being helped, and/or refuses to help in areas of activity where they have no personal interest, can expect to be admired (for the way they have gained such an advantage), envied (by those who do not have such an advantage), and actively hated (for not helping when there is a perceived need for help, real or imagined, or for putting obstacles - again, real or imagined - in the way of those who would wish to gain such success, since the wealthy and powerful individual believes that wealth is ultimately a zero sum game, and they are terrified that they may "lose").

A state that behaves in the same way can expected to be admired, envied and hated just the same as an individual could. As above, so below. States are only organised collections of individuals, after all.

An real-world example: the WTO talks in Cancun have broken down because, ultimately, the USA and EU refused to remove the agricultural subsidies that are causing economic, and real physical, hardship in the Third World. The US refused to contemplate subsidy removal, as it would cause their own farmers some hardship. The EU refused to remove their subsidies unless the USA did as well, to avoid putting their own farmers in the same position that Third World farmers are already in. Consequently the whole WTO is at risk because the rich world doesn't want to help the poor world unless they can get richer doing it.

In a microcosm of US/EU opinion, only one person has had an opinion on the thread I posted about it over the past three or four days, yet there are active threads about children's names, song lyrics and the arrest of a superannuated dopehead comedian who isn't funny any more. I'm not saying that these are issues that are unimportant, just that when given the opportunity to constructively discuss the problems of the people that "hate" Americans (surely the best way to stop them hating you), most Americans prefer to stick to domestic issues (literally in some cases).

EDITED TO ADD:
I think a sports analogy is a useful one, but the comparison is not that of a baseball team being prime within a league of peers. It is of a team being "in a league of it's own". Nobody else can really beat it with any consistency. Certain areas of the game amy show statistical superiority in some areas, but nobody can beat it in a full game (not without cheating, anyway). If a team ALWAYS wins, even fans get bored, and fans of opposing teams will start to suggest that the uber-team needs to be disbanded or handicapped in some way, in just the same way that no sane flyweight boxer would get into a ring with a Tyson or an Ali. In a real sports analogy, the team would eventually get flabby through not having any serious challenges, and would start to lose. Other good teams might start to consolidate, so that maybe they would stand a chance of winning outright, rather than losing gracefully (the EU, anyone?).
If other "teams" want America to "lose", then it's because America has invented a game where someone has to win and everyone else has to lose, refuese to play anyone else at their own game unless they think they'll win, and where there is no pride to be taken from a good defeat. Americans don't seem to want to play because playing is fun, only because winning is fun.

(Like I told you, I am using hyperbole, but the points are all real if perception really is reality.)
Billy Jean
QUOTE
When did we invade France, Germany, Turkey?


We freed France from the Nazis and invaded and occupied West Germany up until 1989. I think they can construe that as American domination. Now, don't get me wrong, Hitler HAD to be defeated, his ideology was pure evil. But power corrupts and American foreign doctrine since ww2 has deviated way off of what this country was conceptualized as.

QUOTE
The biggest problem is one of envy. The US is the big kid on the block. I liken it to sports...


THAT'S THE WHOLE PROBLEM!!! down.gif The whole "American Cowboy", "My gun is bigger than yours" and "the law of the jungle" mentality is what's causing alot of this!

"I'm the big kid on the block and I'm gonna kick your butt!" LISTEN to how that sounds! This isn't the school yard or the football field where you may get bruised up and at the most you're ego gets damaged. We're talking WW3 and nuclear annihilation! mad.gif Terrorist attacks that overshadow 9\11 and a downward spiral and decline of the American way of life... FREEDOM. sad.gif

God, this world should be a matriarchal society and get the testosterone away from "the button" before we all go to hell.
CruisingRam
To boil it down- America is behaving like a big adolecent bully with situational morals, and we are hated for it, and rightly so. Time to get some common sense leaders in office- we really need a regime change!
cyclone
A matriarchial society? Brilliant idea—I've never known a woman to act irrationally, or impulsively… whistling.gif . In any case, I think it's fair to consider that it is the proper role of a nation to act in its best interests, and those of its citizens, whenever possible. When those interests coincide with the interests of other nations, all the better. When they don't, tough cookies. I'm not sure how "being liked" should be part of any kind of foreign policy.
Julian
QUOTE(cyclone @ Sep 15 2003, 08:08 PM)
When those interests coincide with the interests of other nations, all the better. When they don't, tough cookies. I'm not sure how "being liked" should be part of any kind of foreign policy.

Good. Should I look forward to the absence of "why do they hate us" threads in future, then?
Billy Jean
QUOTE
A matriarchial society? Brilliant idea—I've never known a woman to act irrationally, or impulsively…  . In any case, I think it's fair to consider that it is the proper role of a nation to act in its best interests, and those of its citizens, whenever possible. When those interests coincide with the interests of other nations, all the better. When they don't, tough cookies. I'm not sure how "being liked" should be part of any kind of foreign policy.


What about being respected? huh.gif Oh, being feared is good enough? That's a good way to win over our enemies. dry.gif

The best interest of our citizens in to provide them the opportunities in THIS country and to make sure THIS country is self sufficient and has enough jobs for IT'S citizens. Worry about our homeland first and STOP butting into the worlds problems. If we weren't drenched in greed for Middle Eastern oil and could pry our fingers off of the gas pump and realize that we don't NEED them alot of our problems would go away.

THEY DON'T WANT US OVER THERE.

Why don't we take the beam out of our own eye first and fix the mess we have at home and repair our morals and attitudes therefore the image we project to the world is a little more mentally healthy?

I can name a couple of women off the top of my head who were EXCELLENT national leaders and who's countries prospered under their rule: Queen Victoria and Margret Thatcher. How's them cookies?

smoke.gif
cyclone
QUOTE(Julian @ Sep 15 2003, 08:14 PM)
Good. Should I look forward to the absence of "why do they hate us" threads in future, then?

Um…I don't know. Or rather, I don't know what you mean. I think we agree that people are going to root against Bad Bad Leroy Brown and for the guy who kicks Leroy's *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***. So we're the biggest kid on the block; that's just the way it is. I guess some people will spend the rest of their lives wringing their hands and agonizing over the fact that the average guy in Cameroon claims on CNN not to like us. I'm just not one of those people, and I hope whoever is leading the nation at a given time is more worried about us than he is about currying favor with DeVillepin or whomever. It's like having a real estate agent who is primarily concerned about selling your house for a low price, so as to make the buyer happy. Me, I'm looking for an agent who will get me as much as possible for my house.
JSIN
We are the only super power left, it just comes down to jealousy and these insane religious fanatics, seperation of church & state should always be upheld.
Billy Jean
QUOTE
Um…I don't know. Or rather, I don't know what you mean. I think we agree that people are going to root against Bad Bad Leroy Brown and for the guy who kicks Leroy's *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***. So we're the biggest kid on the block; that's just the way it is. I guess some people will spend the rest of their lives wringing their hands and agonizing over the fact that the average guy in Cameroon claims on CNN not to like us. I'm just not one of those people, and I hope whoever is leading the nation at a given time is more worried about us than he is about currying favor with DeVillepin or whomever. It's like having a real estate agent who is primarily concerned about selling your house for a low price, so as to make the buyer happy. Me, I'm looking for an agent who will get me as much as possible for my house.


Moral responsibility doesn't really ring a bell, huh? If, by being the "World's Superpower" and carrying on the way we are, we are setting bad examples. And how can we tell another nation not to do what we do? Who are we to tell one nation they can't develop a nuclear arsenal when we are selves back out of treaties and continue down that path? Where does America get justification for it's authority? We are turning into a rouge nation ourselves and are looked apon as spoiled, selfish hypocrites who always have to have it our way.

Now, is that the image a world superpower is supposed to project? huh.gif
cyclone
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Sep 15 2003, 08:20 PM)
If we weren't drenched in greed for Middle Eastern oil and could pry our fingers off of the gas pump and realize that we don't NEED them alot of our problems would go away.

If by this you mean we should open up drilling in ANWR, I agree completely. It would provide us with much needed leverage. THAT would be leadership, and good for the people of this country, and would certainly reduce our dependence on middle east oil.

As to whether they want us over there, I guess it depends on who "they" means. If you mean the French, sure they want us out of there—or at least they did, when they were doing business with Saddam. The Russians want us out of there now, so they can profit from the rebuilding (heck, just "building") of Iraq, and they'll probably get a piece. I think the men, women and children who were freed from the gulags and torture chambers are glad we came; if some had it their way, we never would have never freed the prisoners, we never would have discovered the mass graves (reason enough to indict Milosevic, wasn't it?), Uday and Qusay would still be raping and murdering at will. I'm glad we didn't bend to the will of those who would have preserved the Saddam regime, just because they didn't want to be offensive, didn't want to make waves.

I will agree with you about the Iron Lady—she could run my country anyday (if only the Constitution permitted).
kimpossible
Cyclone, the way the world percieves the US has an impact on the US. Its not just about getting on someone's goodside. We need international support for some actions, and it would be nice to get it when the time arises. We cant do everything by ourselves, but who's going to want to help in a crises if we just ignore their conditions? Its called working together, and America just doesnt know how to do it.
Platypus
QUOTE(Amlord @ Sep 15 2003, 02:26 PM)
The biggest problem is one of envy.  The US is the big kid on the block.  I liken it to sports...

That's a crock. I've traveled overseas, I converse with people overseas all the time, I even grew up overseas. Yeah, it's a small sample, but yours was zero so get over it. Envy isn't even a factor for most people. If someone in France, for example, envied the US they would either want to move to the US or would want their own country to become more like (and/or more closely bound to) the US. Do they? NO. They think there's entirely too much US already. Same for the Germans, the Danes, the Aussies, etc. They think we should become more like them; that's the very opposite of envy. Even for poorer nations, any envy that might exist is totally overwhelmed by this view of the US as an example of how not to run a country or a society with that kind of wealth or power. It's not the fact that we have wealth or freedom that bothers them; it's what we do with that wealth and freedom, how we totally waste and misuse it.

You want a a sports analogy? Here's one: we're the high-school jocks of the world. When we apply our height and strength and speed to excelling on the sports field people applaud. When we use that same strength to play bully, to stuff people who aren't like us into lockers or shake them down for lunch money, they don't applaud so much. We're like the arrogant, swaggering jock whose athletic excellence is overshadowed by an utter lack of restraint or respect for anyone around us.
Billy Jean
I definitely think we should drill in ANWR and we should seriously start investing in alternative energy sources!

Let Russia and France have Iraq and let them deal with the mess of trying to appease all the different ethnic groups. We've been doing it for the last 50 all over the world and OUR BOYS blood has been spilt way dispreprotionatly compared to theirs.

We have plenty of untapped resources, let them deal with that mess.

And as far as the Iraqis killing one another, Bush Sr could have stopped it when he had the chance and had the world backing him back in 1991. Blame him! whistling.gif
cyclone
QUOTE(kimpossible @ Sep 15 2003, 08:33 PM)
Cyclone, the way the world percieves the US has an impact on the US. Its not just about getting on someone's goodside. We need international support for some actions, and it would be nice to get it when the time arises. We cant do everything by ourselves, but who's going to want to help in a crises if we just ignore their conditions? Its called working together, and America just doesnt know how to do it.

KP, I agree. I think diplomacy means we don't always get what we want, and I think diplomats understand that. So sure, I can accept it. But really, do you think waiting a month, or three months, or six months, would have changed the opinion of our sometime allies re: Iraq? Honestly, how many UN resolutions had Iraq flouted? Hadn't a resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq been approved by the UN? And still they demurred, which is their right. However, I think you'll agree, our will as a sovereign nation shouldn't be subject to the approval of Kofi Annan. Should the President of the United States be required to ask the permission of the UN Security Council every time we want to do something? You tell me.

I think it bothers some people that we are decisive, that we are willing to go it alone if necessary. The simple truth is that we can, and Cameroon, or Luxembourg, or Denmark simply cannot. They have no choice but to govern by committee; we are not similarly constrained. So they do things differently sometimes than we do. Look at it this way: we could probably write off the UN entirely, if we wanted to, as we provide a greater % of the funding than anyone, we provide them a base of operations, and we provide the bulk of the UN's military might. The fact that we do consult the UN, keep them in the loop and provide opportunities to work together shows that America can and does cooperate with our international allies.
Cephus
QUOTE(Julian @ Sep 15 2003, 07:05 PM)
Now, nobody blames Americans for putting America first. Everyone puts their own countries' concerns above those of elsewhere, just as individuals primarily look after number one.

No, nobody blames America for putting America first. People blame America for putting America first, last and in every other position. We simply don't worry about what anyone else wants, we do what America wants and screw everyone else.

That's the problem. Consideration for anyone else is absolutely absent on our radar.
kimpossible
QUOTE
Let Russia and France have Iraq and let them deal with the mess of trying to appease all the different ethnic groups.


Why should they be willing to take over a mess we activley excluded them on? Maybe this is a reason some countries hate us: we ruin a country and then say that the opposing parties should foot the bill to make it better.

QUOTE
However, I think you'll agree, our will as a sovereign nation shouldn't be subject to the approval of Kofi Annan.


To an extent, but as long as we signed a treaty to work with them, then we have to follow the UN rules. Even though it seems no country has the ability to do that, I think that we may be the worst at ignoring it. I have yet to see a case where the UN has actually threatened our sovereignty (and I dont count Iraq, since the UN laws explicitly state that you must be ATTACKED first to respond with military action. We signed on. We're supposed to obey).

QUOTE
I think it bothers some people that we are decisive, that we are willing to go it alone if necessary.


Thats how you see it, others see it as imperialism and hegemony. If it was some other country doing it to us there is no way we'd be happy with them about it. The first example that comes to my mind is with Mexican immigrants. Throughout the US, there is now more labels in Spanish, more options for people who speak Spanish, and its considered an asset if you can speak both Spanish and English, and the US HATES this fact (and look at how much we like Mexicans). Well, the rest of the world is tailored to speak English in pretty much the same way, it may not be on food labels, but in hotels, airports, airline services, transportation, restraunts things are in English. Why cant Americans simply learn some phrases when they travel across the world?
CruisingRam
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Sep 15 2003, 08:39 PM)
I definitely think we should drill in ANWR and we should seriously start investing in alternative energy sources!

Let Russia and France have Iraq and let them deal with the mess of trying to appease all the different ethnic groups.  We've been doing it for the last 50 all over the world and OUR BOYS blood has been spilt way dispreprotionatly compared to theirs.

We have plenty of untapped resources, let them deal with that mess.

And as far as the Iraqis killing one another, Bush Sr could have stopped it when he had the chance and had the world backing him back in 1991.  Blame him!  whistling.gif

Opening ANWR will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on our foriegn dependence on oil- you guys need to research this further. Oil production just doesn't work that way. If, by a swing of the wand, we were able to get it up to 100% production tomorow (which is truly magic- it would take 7 years to production if we got permission tomorow, and another 3 or 4 to full 100% capacity, then there is no guaruntee one way or the other that it has the amount of oil that is claimed to be there- it is a guess, a scientific guess, but a guess nevertheless)- I am from Alaska, and it would be great for our states economy, but that is about as far as it goes! So all this talk about ANWR and decreasing our dependancy is hot air and irrelevent to this debate- it is precisely the reason we are hated as well- the powers that be KNOW that this is a side issue and we need other countries oil to keep the status quo and themselves in power- so we strong arm other countries, bully them, assasinate them, meddle in thier affairs, then try to claim the moral high ground- my God, I would hate us too if I were the rest of the world and had to rely on our "kindness"- with friends like us, who needs enemas?
GoAmerica
QUOTE(kimpossible @ Sep 15 2003, 05:09 PM)
QUOTE
Let Russia and France have Iraq and let them deal with the mess of trying to appease all the different ethnic groups.


Why should they be willing to take over a mess we activley excluded them on? Maybe this is a reason some countries hate us: we ruin a country and then say that the opposing

No. They just think we are selfish in that case.
Jaime
goamerica - please elaborate. You really should know better than to post a one-liner. dry.gif
Rancid Uncle
We aren't George W. Bush and the rest of the world isn't Osama bin Laden (not that Bin Laden and Bush are morally equivalent). It doesn't bother me at all that some French people are more liberal than me. I'm not losing any sleep over that. What's at the core of this question is terrorism. Americans should lose sleep over 3,000 of them being murdered on September 11th. The countries that most terrorists come from are very poor. Our per Capita GDP is $37,600; Syria's is $3500. When someone's country is that poor and another one is so rich they need to know why. A very convenient reason is the rich country's wealth comes from its evil deeds. This makes terrorism a subconscious way of justifying your own poverty. The reason many Americans look down upon the countries of the Arab world is quite similar. The poor countries poverty lies in its people being evil. This is a fundamental human fault that has always divided us.
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(Julian @ Sep 15 2003, 12:05 PM)
American news organisations and government agencies seem to be forever asking after "what do you think of America", which might indicate to outsiders that  America's only concern is America.


I believe journalists ask this for exactly the opposite reason of self absorption. Americans are, in general, extraordinarily concerned about what the rest of the world thinks of us.
QUOTE
Any individual who clearly has the resources to help, but refuses to do so unless it is on their terms, i.e. immediately to their advantage, and to the long term disadvantage of those being helped, and/or refuses to help in areas of activity where they have no personal interest, can expect to be admired (for the way they have gained such an advantage), envied (by those who do not have such an advantage), and actively hated (for not helping when there is a perceived need for help, real or imagined, or for putting obstacles - again, real or imagined - in the way of those who would wish to gain such success, since the wealthy and powerful individual believes that wealth is ultimately a zero sum game, and they are terrified that they may "lose").

The United Nations is comprised of over 150 countries, of which one country (America) has carried over 30 percent of the costs and manpower for peacekeeping activity. I don't think this qualifies as 'refusing to help', even by hyperbolic standards.

I agree that we aren't perfect, and the current behavior of the administration leaves a lot to be desired (an understatement). However, anti-Americanism is not a recent phenomenon. I have yet to see a foreign entertainer come to America and bad-mouth their home country. Ours go overseas and do it in droves. It's a posh thing to do these days, and it vexes me. Would European countries welcome back actors, who bashed their country overseas, with open arms? I'm curious, do Brits do this?
We aren't the evil incarnate, and I have visited many countries which are significantly more corrupt than we, and more one-dimensional thinking, none of whom are nearly as despised.
GoAmerica
QUOTE(Rancid Uncle @ Sep 15 2003, 07:36 PM)
This makes terrorism a subconscious way of justifying your own poverty.

This reminds me of how Hitler used the Jews as a scapegoat for the Great Depression. So basically, you are saying that Osama goes around and says "The Americans are the reason you are poor" ? Yep...Hitler all the way.


Also, to add to this comment of yours, they would convince a poor person to fight Americans so you wil be rewarded with 72 Virgins and all that.
kayakcamp
Why we are hated? Well that's a big question with lots of answers.
In my travels while in the Marines back in the 1980's I observed a few things:

First, and most scary... Many people around the globe form opinions of the US based upon what they see in the movies.

Second, most folks in the US have a bit, if not a lot, of class envy. They simply are jealous of our wealth and success as a nation.

Third, we are very powerful. In our position, most nations around the globe would be very aggressive and build a huge empire. Not that we do not have an empire, but ours is a result of defensive wars. We were attacked and we took some real estate and kept it afterwards for security reasons. Not like the French, Russias et al of the 19th century.

That brings me to another point on France and friends. They view our actions through the filters of their colonialist past. They think we will act like they did when they were the "big dogs" and therefore must act against us. The old "balance of power" thing in pre-WWI days.

As for islamic extremists, well you can't reason with them. The want to go back and tit for tat back in time to a point that suits them to justify their actions. I say go all the way back to about 488 BC when the Greeks fought for the beginnings of Western Civilization. I fought some of these types in the first battles agains terror in Beirut in 1983 to 1984. There was only one thing that got their attention, I think you know what that is.

I do know that the worst thing that could happen for UBL and company is for the average muslim to interact with Americans and walk away saying "Hey, those guys aren't' so bad". That is why they will fight so hard in post war Iraq. I truly hope we do the right thing as a nation with Iraq. Give them a few years and let them decide their fate.... And we leave them to it.
Alan Wood
QUOTE(goamerica @ 2003,)
Good Question hmmm.gif

It's based on 3 reasons:[LIST]
[*]We support Israel
[*]We have troops in Saudi Arabia, home of Mecca
[*]It is burned into their brain by brainwashing propaganda
Ooops...I wanted to say that brainwashing thing about Americans crying.gif

QUOTE(goamerica @ 2003,)
Mostly it's because it is burned into their brains that "the west cannot be trusted" and that the Arab State-run news sources are more accurate than CNN.
Our local 'Ladies Knitting Circle Monthly' is more accurate than CNN blush.gif
QUOTE(goamerica @ 2003,)
Also, Osama Bin Laden, who always preaches his garbage, somehow convinces young muslims that we are evil and that we have declared war on Islam
You have and just did. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the self styled 'Don Quixote' of the modern World recently invade an Islamic country in order to offer them the freedom and idillic American way of life?
Jeepers I think I misunderstood something here blush.gif

QUOTE(goamerica @ 2003,)
And Grendel, it's not because of our current administration.
OH YES IT IS!!!
Lets take just a tiny insignificant thing to demonstrate the current administrations testosterone overload.
Remember Rumsfeld in Iraq?..........Remember his little gem to the troops regarding UN help?...no..........ok here it is..
"....the US is aggressivly petitioning the United Nations to assist in Iraq..."
Aggressivly pleading for help??? wacko.gif wacko.gif
Oh dear oh dear..........such a peace loving bunch of hitmen

Regards....Alan
Horyok
I agree with KayakCamp that France and other countries within Europe see the American attitude as resemblant to our colonialist attitude in the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.

But there's more than that. We moved on a great deal since these times and our vision of the world has changed. The idea of war makes most of us sick to the heart.

Today, we have achieved peace within the EU. We have stabilized a continent where wars have raged for hundreds of years. This is a success. Our success. Now, we would like to see the extension of this process to the rest of the world, because we know it works.

Therefore (to make a long story short) our idea about Iraq was to apply a similar process, and prefer negociations to bombs, whenever possible.

I believe this was the biggest shift between America and Europe about Iraq after all. Quite ironically, it was the freedom given by the Americans after WW2 that allowed us to change, unite and become the EU.

Sorry for the off topic post... wink2.gif
GoAmerica
QUOTE(kayakcamp @ Sep 15 2003, 10:44 PM)
First, and most scary...  Many people around the globe form opinions of the US based upon what they see in the movies.

That's one thing. It's kinda sad to think that some countries see the United States from movies. Of course, muslims are isolated, they have no idea that our movies aren't real life things.
quarkhead
QUOTE(goamerica @ Sep 17 2003, 07:51 AM)
QUOTE(kayakcamp @ Sep 15 2003, 10:44 PM)
First, and most scary...  Many people around the globe form opinions of the US based upon what they see in the movies.

That's one thing. It's kinda sad to think that some countries see the United States from movies. Of course, muslims are isolated, they have no idea that our movies aren't real life things.

Somehow I don't think there is a higher rate of idiocy in Muslims than in anyone else. Muslims do not mistake movies for real life, GA. What many of them object to is the general subject matter (violence and sex) that our movies glorify.

If you read Bin Laden's letter, it is quite interesting. He is certainly not an idiot. Some of his statements about America are about issues we ourselves are very divided on. His letter is scary, too. If his thinking is representative of many, I think we may be in for quite a long and deadly battle.
GoAmerica
QUOTE(quarkhead @ Sep 17 2003, 10:09 AM)
His letter is scary, too. If his thinking is representative of many, I think we may be in for quite a long and deadly battle.

I doubt a majority think the way he does because his teachings aren't that of the Quran. Some Clerics in the United States think Osama is basically off his rocker.
quarkhead
QUOTE(goamerica @ Sep 17 2003, 08:17 AM)
QUOTE(quarkhead @ Sep 17 2003, 10:09 AM)
His letter is scary, too. If his thinking is representative of many, I think we may be in for quite a long and deadly battle.

I doubt a majority think the way he does because his teachings aren't that of the Quran. Some Clerics in the United States think Osama is basically off his rocker.

I agree - I doubt it is a majority. However, as we know in this country (and this has been true through the ages), a dedicated and powerful minority can still control a country. If a cause is presented well, it can polarize many who are undecided or moderate. For example, it is true that probably a majority of Muslim nations, and their populations, are opposed to America's policies concerning the Middle East, Russia, and Africa. How hard would it be to sell these people on some of Bin Laden's rhetoric? Not too hard, I imagine.

As has been made obvious by my posts on this forum, I don't support the way in which our "war on terror" is being managed. However, when I look at the type of campaign we have so far engaged in, and when I look at Bin Laden's letter, I do see a conflict which has, unfortunately, not reached its highest point yet. I am afraid that, unless radical changes are made, this war will be long and bloody, and that the outcome is much less sure than our current administration would have us believe.
cyclone
QUOTE(quarkhead @ Sep 17 2003, 03:09 PM)
Somehow I don't think there is a higher rate of idiocy in Muslims than in anyone else.

I don't know if idiocy is the term I'd use, but I'd argue against any notion that your average Iraqi is as savvy as your average westerner (not surprising, given that their society is about 800 years behind ours). A recent article on the AP line reported that many Iraqis still fear Hussein—because they believe him to be invincible due to a magic rock he carries. Stories abound among these people (and these are merchants, mechanics, etc., not idiots) about instances in which Saddam demanded a soldier fire at him, and the rock caused the bullets to veer away from him and kill a nearby goat or other animal.

I think you may be misrepresenting (unintentionally, I'm sure) the position of the administration on the war against terror. I don't believe President Bush, Colin Powell or anybody else in a position of responsibility has ever said or implied this would be a quick and/or bloodless war. On the contrary, they have consistently stressed that this would be a long and difficult process.

I believe the Muslim world would be better off if it tolerated real debate about Islam; instead, dissenters (a la Salman Rushdie) are threatened with death, killed whenever possible. Until the middle east chooses to move into the modern age, I suspect radical Islam will continue to menace the rest of the world.
ikeaboy69
QUOTE(kayakcamp @ Sep 16 2003, 03:44 AM)
Why we are hated?  Well that's a big question with lots of answers.
In my travels while in the Marines back in the 1980's I observed a few things:

First, and most scary...  Many people around the globe form opinions of the US based upon what they see in the movies.

Second, most folks in the US have a bit, if not a lot, of class envy.  They simply are jealous of our wealth and success as a nation. 

Third, we are very powerful.  In our position, most nations around the globe would be very aggressive and build a huge empire.  Not that we do not have an empire, but ours is a result of defensive wars.  We were attacked and we took some real estate and kept it afterwards for security reasons.  Not like the French, Russias et al of the 19th century. 

That brings me to another point on France and friends.  They view our actions through the filters of their colonialist past.  They think we will act like they did when they were the "big dogs" and therefore must act against us.  The old "balance of power" thing in pre-WWI days. 

As for islamic extremists, well you can't reason with them.  The want to go back and tit for tat back in time to a point that suits them to justify their actions.  I say go all the way back to about 488 BC when the Greeks fought for the beginnings of Western Civilization.  I fought some of these types in the first battles agains terror in Beirut in 1983 to 1984.  There was only one thing that got their attention, I think you know what that is. 

I do know that the worst thing that could happen for UBL and company is for the average muslim to interact with Americans and walk away saying "Hey, those guys aren't' so bad".  That is why they will fight so hard in post war Iraq.  I truly hope we do the right thing as a nation with Iraq.  Give them a few years and let them decide their fate....  And we leave them to it.

Isn't these the reasons the government gives us, they must be because if you ask me they don't sound very convincing.

You really think the fact that America and Isreal have voted against any and all resolution the UN has come up with to ease palestinian suffering? The fact that Saddam was sponsored by the government in his war against Iran? The fact that when Salvador Allende got elected president of Chile the government did everything in its power to eradicate the Chilean economy and invoke a military coup? The fact that the US airforce has been bombarding countrys on a monthly basis, well almost, since 1945? Etc. Has nothing to do with the hatred?
Cephus
QUOTE(cyclone @ Sep 17 2003, 06:26 PM)
I don't know if idiocy is the term I'd use, but I'd argue against any notion that your average Iraqi is as savvy as your average westerner (not surprising, given that their society is about 800 years behind ours). A recent article on the AP line reported that many Iraqis still fear Hussein—because they believe him to be invincible due to a magic rock he carries. Stories abound among these people (and these are merchants, mechanics, etc., not idiots) about instances in which Saddam demanded a soldier fire at him, and the rock caused the bullets to veer away from him and kill a nearby goat or other animal.

Just like there are Americans who believe the Earth is flat and the moon landing was performed on a Hollywood sound stage. There are people carrying around prayer beads, thinking they'll protect them.

Stupidity exists in all cultures.
Horyok
Why are Americans hated?

Well, why are French hated, why are Brits hated, etc, etc...

Everybody hates everybody, it's a general feeling between countries, running through the national opinion. It's not founded at all most of the times.

I think this 'hate' comes from a very primitive fear of the 'difference' between individuals. When you see 'difference' in someone else, it raises doubts about your own safety. A part of you asks the question : "Can I trust that person whom I don't understand?"

As foreigners, we're all different... so we hate each other's countries and cultures. It's not specific of the US.
Julian
QUOTE(Rancid Uncle @ Sep 16 2003, 12:36 AM)
We aren't George W. Bush and the rest of the world isn't Osama bin Laden (not that Bin Laden and Bush are morally equivalent).  It doesn't bother me at all that some French people are more liberal than me.  I'm not losing any sleep over that.  What's at the core of this question is terrorism.  Americans should lose sleep over 3,000 of them being murdered on September 11th.  The countries that most terrorists come from are very poor.  Our per Capita GDP is $37,600; Syria's is $3500.  When someone's country is that poor and another one is so rich they need to know why.  A very convenient reason is the rich country's wealth comes from its evil deeds.  This makes terrorism a subconscious way of justifying your own poverty.  The reason many Americans look down upon the countries of the Arab world is quite similar.  The poor countries poverty lies in its people being evil.  This is a fundamental human fault that has always divided us.

That's very true, RU, and it links to a correspondance that Mrs Pigpen and I had a few weeks ago.

America raises the idea that hard work and persistance will always deliver the desired result if you keep it up long enough to a higher level than any other country in history. The idea that you could work hard with persistance and NOT get results just doesn't compute for most Americans.

So it's easy for America to look at the poor world, hear the cries for help (or handouts) and think "why the heck should we help you? nobody helped us, and now were the big cheese. If you work hard like we did you'll get what we've got." Which would be a convincing argument, if it wasn't what we British called a load of bollocks. It doesn't even work within America (or other countries where it is applied, like Britain).

So I think the occasions when America allows sentiments to this effect creep out - by and large you don't ram the idea down people's throats - just add to any resentments of the USA's success (as you've already highlighted).

Like any complex individual relationship, there are things both sides do that they themselves realise are mistakes. These are not generally the things that cause the most ill-feeling. Instead, it's the things we do that we don't realise rub other up the wrong way, or worse, that when challenged upon, we justify as the right thing to do - these are the things that, over the long term, REALLY cause damage.

Unlike relationships between individuals, countries can't move to a new town if it all comes to a painful dead end. We're stuck with each other. The key is not to find fault with the way everyone else behaves, but to be aware of how what we do affects them. Our own behaviour is the only thing we have any real control over, after all.
SoCaliente_1
well as far as Osama binLaden, he hates the debauchery of the west. his solution is either conversion or death. He acted against us. This concerns us.

saddam hussein hates us because America was the PREMIER source of obstruction to his goals of domination of the ME.

he hates us because we gave Israel the means by which to bomb Iraq's Nuke reactor (supplied by their friends the French) which prompted Saddam to later admit (during the attack on Kuwait) that is those damn Israelis hadn't blown up my Nuke I would have used it. Saddam hates both Israel and the US for consistently thwarting him. This concerned us.

The North koreans hate us because we called them "Evil", which they are. They hate us because we demand accountings of the aid we send to NK. The idea, Kim, is to feed the starving NOT to power your military. They hate us because we are on to their *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***. They concern us.

Iran hates us because we are the Infidel. They support terror and they hate that we know this. they hate that we called them "evil" which they are. They are a terrorist state who hates us and has possible Nuke capabilities. They concern us.

as to anyone else hating us? Who cares.
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