My answer to this question is yes, I think the US should adopt a policy that codifies English as our national language. The first step in this process should be to require that anyone receiving a high school diploma be able to pass a basic test in English. Otherwise, our educational system isn't really doing it's job.

There is only so far a person in this society can go without being fluent in English. Sure, they can work in low-paying jobs for people who are bilingual, but I don't think that's quite the idea of what the American dream is truly all about. For immigrants to succeed in this country, they have to learn the language, period. And if we are going to invite them to come here, it seems to me that part of our responsibility as a nation is to offer them the chance to succeed. A fundamental part of that is teaching them English.

I totally agree with Aquilla. You hit the nail right on the head. And just to add an old saying, "When in Rome do as the Romans."
People who live in a nation whose language is not their native tongue and who don't have a good working knowledge of that language are at a great disadvantage.

Indeed. I cannot stand going into the automated process in the supermarket and have to pick between english and spanish. And I live in a small town to boot. Learn the language or leave. I find it seriously troubling that in california and arizona, in public schools, we teach children in spanish. I find it very troubling.

--Rob

Although it's not overly painful for me to press the 'english' button at the ATM, I think everyone who immigrates to the US should learn english, .
But where would it end? For those who would favor multi-lingual signs, brochures, handbooks, etc...What languages would have to be included?
You obviously can't accommodate everyone, so some sort of quota would have to be reached for a given area before that language was included. So there would be no standard from one community to the next. And, oh by the way....where would the money come from to make these changes on government items? Would we have to enact a 'latte tax' or the like to fund this, when it should be an integral part of becoming a productive citizen anyway.

my view on it is this: if I go to russia, I am to expected to learn enough russian to communicate. I don't expect them to learn english to accomodate me. if someone from another country comes here, they should learn english (or american rather) I should not have to learn their language.

thing is, is that almost all people that come here learn at least enough english to get by. the biggest problem is with hispanics that don't and more importantly WON'T learn any english (there are some that have been here for nearly ten years and still can't speak any english, and even kids that have lived here their entire lives and speak little to no english!) in Greely, colorado, it is virtually impossible to get a job unless you are bi-lingual! that's *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***!!!

yes american (or american-english) should be our official language. oh and did you know they give the citzenship test in spanish if you can't speak anything else? it should be strictly an english test (in fact make part of the test be an evaluation of basic english skills)

In public, people should be required to speak english, if not fluently, then at least effectively. However, when it gets to their homes and private life, it shouldn't make any difference whatsoever. I don't think we should ever go as far as outlawing certain languages.

I don't think the United States needs to make english the official national language. I don't think anything like mandatory usage of English is feasible or desirable.

However we should not be hamstrung by requirements to make all services available in two or more languages. Our bureaucrats have enough trouble performing adequately while being proficient in one language.

I would certainly never suggest that any language be outlawed, in private or in public. I would only require that people be able to speak the language because that's what they have to do in order to make their lives better in the US.

Edited to add a response to Eeyore....



It seems to me that making English the official language in law doesn't mandate that people use it, only that they learn it for certain things, like graduating from high school. Our public educational system is supposed to equip our children with the tools they need to be successful in life. One of those tools in my opinion is the basic capability of communicating in the English language.

People who want to get ahead in America have always learned and will continue to learn English - whether they're from Cambodia or a cave in the Appalachians. I agree that teaching primarily in Spanish is a troubling development, but the real issue is under-funded school systems and under-qualified teachers; teaching kids in Spanish is a band-aid for that particular problem, not the problem itself.
Adopting English as the national language strikes me as a fatuous, politically-motivated, empty gesture. While we're at it, let's adopt baseball as our national pasttime and apple pie as our national dessert.
And is touching "English" on an ATM that hard?

It isn't a matter of outlawing other languages. You can speak 500 languages if you want, so long as one of them is English. And here, I thought that in order to become a citizen, you had to pass a basic English proficiency test.

If this is true, it is news to me. A basic knowledge of the English language was a prerequisite to naturalization when I was in High School. As a result, they attempted to combine Spanish (for English speaking students) with "English as a Second Language" for persons studying to be citizens. We had a lovely teacher. She had graduated from a "Normal School," a prerequisite to a teaching license in the 1920's. Ready to retire from a 35 year career teaching Kindergarten, she got a call that "You're the only teacher in our system qualified to teach Spanish. Would you like the promotion?" She had had no cause to speak or read Spanish for 35 years, but accepted the promotion and took a refresher course.

Problem 1: Speaking English does not mean you can function here.
According to the Sept. 12, 2003 Detroit Free Press, "In Detroit, an estimated 47 percent of residents 16 and older read at the lowest literacy level or not at all." and "Nearly 1 in 5 Michigan residents fit that category." I know that I read at one time that Seven-Eleven teaches English to more people than any other institution in the United States. I can't put my fingers on a source for that statement at the moment, but for employers at the minimum wage level, communication can be a problem.

Problem 2: English is not the most useful tool for communicating.
I often said that in my first marriage, we had a major communication problem. I was raised to speak English as my native language, while my wife had been raised speaking English as her native language. As a consequence, we never were able to find a common language which we could use to communicate with each other. Because English has adopted words from other languages throughout it's History, we have a language where snow might have 100 meanings, as opposed to the eskimo languages which purportedly have 100 words for snow. The pun as a source of humor, I have been told, is unique to the English language. There is the additional problem, that what you hear in an English statement depends on whether you are in Kindergarten, or a college professor. As an example, I had a pat reply to co-workers over the years who felt that one or more of my behaviors meant I must be gay:

"After years of consultation with various psychotherapists, I can assure you that I am quite comfortable in my role as a blatant heterosexual, with clearly identified latent Homo Sapien tendencies. Until you tell me differently, I will assume that the same is true of you. I have as a result been known on occasion to behave in unpredictable, and even irrational fashions. I try to be neither surprised, nor offended when someone like yourself acts in a similar fashion."

It's the kind of banter one uses in the home when your father reads the new copy of an unabridged dictionary, notes the errata, and sends a note off to the publisher. The next evening he would go back to reading his normal 2 newspapers, 5 - 6 library books, and several magazines. On one occasion though, a contract janitor was so offended by what I had called him, that he made me write it down for him, and then filed a formal protest because I had called him a Homo Sapien. When it reached grievance stage, and both my foreman and the union steward laughed at the fact that he was protesting being called human. He quit and got a job at the Seven-Eleven. "At least people show respect for me there." was the message that he gave his employer when he quit. He was born, raised, and educated in America. He spoke only English, but not well enough to help him function.

Problem 3: You can succeed in America, even if you can't speak English.
We recently had dinner at a friend's Chinese restaurant. When a customer drove her car into the restaurant about 4 feet behind where I was seated, the owner handed my wife the telephone. "Can you call the police?" We were the only people in the restaurant that spoke English, or knew that 911 was the number to call. I've seen photos of their home, watched as the restaurant has become more and more elaborately decorated, and become good friends with the waiters and waitresses. If I had to evaluate who is "living the American Dream," I would have to argue that language has been a small barrier for them. The police left them with instructions to "Call your insurance agent." So far they haven't, and I am beginning to question whether they understand the word. Their sons are in elementary school. The next time I see them, maybe they can translate the question for me.

Problem 4: "The people that arranged their immigration weren't well prepared."
Twenty years back, I was moonlighting as an electrical contractor. My accountant moved from his house across the street, and rented it to a Vietnamese family. Later that day, the fire department called me in to try to help defuse a growing language problem. They had a wok and a charcoal fire in the middle of the living room carpet, where they were trying to cook dinner. The homeowner and the mother were both screaming at each other, one in English and the other in Vietnamese. Repeating the same message louder and louder did nothing to teach either person the other one's language. The father, a very accomplished story teller if I was to infer anything from the inflexion in his voice and his arm and hand motions, was telling the children a bedtime story. They were paying so much attention to him, that they were ignoring the real world war in the same room.

The fire dept. presumed the stove was not working. I moved the wok to the stove, and turned the burner on. No one had showed any of the family members where anything was in the house, or how to use it.

A policeman with some wartime experience in Viet Nam arrived on the scene. He contacted the person who had arranged the lease. "Welcome to the United States, I'm glad to see you made it." It was a church project, he spoke English and a little bit of French. The family spoke neither.

Problem 5:Why English?
After the revolutionary War, the founding fathers, I have been told, considered German as an official language to underscore the break with Great Britain.

Problem 6: Which English language would you use?
My father spoke to a job applicant once, beginning "Mr. Harrison..." He was immediately interrupted with "Hif han Haitch, hand ha Hay, hand two Hars, hand ha hi, hand ha hess, and ha hoe, and ha hen don't spell, Arrison, what hin ell duss hit spell?" The "King's English" is rarely spoken in America, but it is still a large country with many regional dialects. My wife and I were both raised in Michigan, but we have never agreed on how to pronounce roof.

Problem 7: Why bother with the complex process of creating a needless law?
Spanish is not an option on the ATM machines locally, although I suspect French might be if I got closer to the Canadian border. English is by all accounts, the language of commerce, by International treaty the language spoken by all air traffic controllers, and the language most prevalent on our radios, televisions, movies, newspapers, packaging, etc. If you want to learn English, there is de facto saturation training available. If you want to function in America speaking Chinese, Vietnamese, French, or Farsi; you will need to find or create a support network that allows you to do that. English is in fact, if not in law, already the nation's "official language." Enacting a law leaves it subject to judicial interpretation, and overthrow. Do you really want the Supreme Court to overthrow such a law, and then rule that everything must be translated into any language spoken as a primary or secondary language by more than 1% of our population?

In my opinion, we need to do more to ensure that the people who are born here are better educated. Our society has always been fed, and changed, by the cultures, talents, and labor provided by immigrants. We are competing today with an international labor pool. I would rather that competition was working under American laws, labor rules, union contracts, etc.; than to be buying merchandise made in a Chinese prison from an employee whose payroll is being computed by a technician operating a computer in India. Illiteracy rates of 20 - 50% are not reflecting an immigrant population, they are reflecting an educational problem with the Americans who were born here. (And impacting the resale value of your computer!)

Caution: Some spells in this post may not work as expected, according to Spell Check.

Why is it our responsibility? We let them in, surely that is enough of a chance to succeed that it makes them almost equal to those of us already here. The rest is up to them. There are night classes available that they can attend, but we can't teach those who don't attend.

A Chinese friend came here as a pre-teen with his parents, and he still has an accent that I have adjusted to. His parents speak very little English, and they have been here almost 20 years. But they have succeeded financially, by skimming profits at their restuarant, thus avoiding taxes. Seems that learning how to avoid taxes is more important than communicating in English.

I dont think English should be our official language, as it would hinder the rights of those who dont speak English or those who dont speak it well.

I am also not sure what everyone's fear about teaching Spanish in schools is, because it also means that English-speaking students will learn Spanish, and everyone knows (or should know) its easier for children to learn a language wqhen they are younger. If teaching Spanish in schools results in more bi-lingual students (and from what Ive red about the problems in CO education system) I fail to see the problem.



Actually, according to: http://www.immigration.gov/graphics/servic...atz/general.htm



Also, I am curious to know the assertations by people who say that some immigrants have been in the country for 20 years (or whatever ridiculous amount of time) but dont speak English. If they dont speak English, how did you get by asking them how long they've been in the country, and if they are studying English? Ive met alot of people who have the tendency to think that because someone has an accent it means they cant speak English, but I have yet to meet someone whos been in the country for over 6 years and speaks NO English. When I was in France, I had mostly friends who spoke English (there was a group of study-abroad students from MD) but I learned enough French to hold a basic conversation...I find it difficult to believe that someone can live in America and not pick up a decent amount of English.

And even if they dont, SO WHAT? Someone speaking Korean doesnt have much of an effect on me.

I would go a step farther and make at least 2 languages mandatory for promotion TO high school. In most European countries they may have 3 or 4 "official" languages, and many studies show children with more than one language have an average higher IQ of 10 or more points. I think it is a great disservice to our country not to DEMAND more languages from our children, and demand at least 3 national languages. My daughter will have at least 4 languages without accent by age 5, and I hope my wife adds another three by the time she goes to highschool, same with my son. My Mom knows 3, mother-in-law 7, and wife 5. My wife is a lingual genius, nearly no accent in any of her languages, including Japanese, as reported by the Japanese. It is the quest for mediocrity than is harming our nation in this issue.

OK, CR, back away from the high horse and nobody will get hurt.
America has as our immediate neighbors Canada and Mexico. Most of Canada speaks English, and Mexico is not exactly an economic powerhouse or a military threat such that we all need to learn their language.
Russia has as neighbors, well, almost everybody else in the world when it comes to languages. They have a need to know more languages than we do. There is no valid reason for most of us Americans to know more than English, as most of us will NEVER have to deal with foreign languages. I feel the same way about Solid Geometry. Never used it after high school, and still don't see the value in it except for a very few professions, whatever they might be. I have taken, in High School and College, French and Spanish, but have never been anywhere that the knowledge has done me any good. I suspect that most Americans are in the same boat.
Mediocrity isn't so bad, certainly not as bad as being forced to learn useless knowledge when more important knowledge is being withheld.
BTW, how many languages do you speak fluently?

Let's see, which scans better:

"Give me your tired, your poor;
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

or

"Give me your English-speaking tired, your English-speaking poor;
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free - so long as they learn English.
The wretched, Anglophile refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the English-speaking homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden, English Speakers Only door."

I vote for the first one - though I do seem to be in a minority. I hate to keep harping in these forums about what this country is supposed to mean - but some will persist in forgetting. For hundreds of years, people of every nation, every race, every tongue have sought refuge on our shores with the hope of new opportunities and a new future. America is theirs, every bit as much as it is "ours". Diversity is what America means.

The instant we declare "an official language" is the instant we begin spitting in the face of the Statue of Liberty. We should no more declare English the national language than we should declare caucasian the national race. Neither should we have a national religion nor a national gender nor a national level of physical ability nor a national sexual preference - though you can bet there are those who would think otherwise.


I'm in a different boat altogether, Bill. I live in Florida (Spanish, by the way, for the "feast of flowers" - or Easter) and come across Spanish-speakers every day of my life. I also frequently encounter people whose first language is Creole - and Orlando has a substantial Vietnamese community and a substantial Arabic community. I use my high school Spanish, such as it is, a couple of times a week - and could use proficiency in another two or three languages. I expect the same could be said of many living in New York or California or Texas - or in any major urban area of this country. I suspect that it's your boat which is small, narrow, and rather lacking in passengers.

"No valid reason for most of us Americans to know more than English"? How about the fact that Hispanics are our largest minority, that it's estimated they will make up 25% of our population by 2050? That for 93% of them, Spanish is their first language? How about the fact that you are living in perhaps the most ethnically diverse country in the world? How about the fact that that world is growing progressively smaller and none but Americans expect the rest of the globe to learn their preferred language?

English isn't even this country's first language. It may have been Algonquin or Sioux or Dakota or Iroquois or Cherokee or Ute (all of which have given us state names, twenty-five of which are from Native American languages) - but it sure as hell wasn't the language of King George. For that matter, large sections of this country were "discovered" by Spanish-speaking peoples. Large sections of this country were settled by Spanish-speaking peoples. Indeed, large sections of this country were taken from Spanish-speaking peoples by conquest. Five states - excluding, er, New Mexico - bear Spanish names (as well as three French, one Greek, and one Polynesian). Perhaps we should make Choctaw the official language. One could make as good a case...

One more time: the United States is not about exerting the will of any majority - even an English-speaking majority. This is why our founders - surrounded, as they were, by French- and Dutch-speakers (as well as a lot more natives than most of us will ever encounter) - didn't even think of establishing a state language. And this is why it will never happen.

Sure, encourage conformity and assimilation, expect a basic proficiency in the language of the diminishing majority - why not? Discriminate against your fellow citizens on the basis of language, if you must - bigotry is a right. But make it a matter of law? What a silly concept.

2- working on 3 (starting German this semester, got Russian down pretty good) - and of course, like I said, correcting this oversight with my own kids.

And Bill- it is very arrogant to say "we don't need to know these other languages"- when in fact, we are really needing it more than ever- we are becoming less insulated and more Global- on top of that, we may not be the "trade language" forever, and it is very dangerous to paint ourselves into a corner with this. I still think we should require at least 2 languages before age 7, it would definately improve our education level in this country at the very least!

It doesn't hurt anybody to learn a second language. It helps us understand English better because we have to know different parts of speech. It enables us to learn the culture of the speakers of that language; in other words, it is enriching.

Further, when an English speaker attempts to learn another language, it is a sign of respect. It means to the non-English speaker that s/he is valued enough for someone to try to understand him/her. With my modicum of understanding of Spanish, I have often helped Hispanics in the jobs I've held. While my mistakes have sometimes been amusing, they have helped break the ice and enabled the other person to relax a little.

There is always a need for more respect and understanding. This is one practical way to achieve it.

Swahili, I understand has borrowed most of it's words from other languages. Esperanto was an attempt to create an artificial world language. English has "borrowed" a number of words from other languages. Our dictionaries, in fact, make a point of listing the etymology of English words.

Consider if you will, a possible consequence of defining English as our "official language." A national conference of language experts would meet to decide which words are "pure enough" to be considered English. Other countries with official languages, such as France, actually do this; as they work very hard to ensure that their language is not corrupted by the addition of English words. President George W. Bush, as the opening speaker, would stand up to address the conference; and his opening remark would be. "Heh! I've just been informed by the French Ambassador, that the problem with the English language is that we have no word for entrepreneur."

the biggest problem I have is with those that refuse to learn ANY english (and there are quite a few out there, I have no sources, as I heard this on fox31 news in 2000 when colorado was considering an admendment for bilingual schools) if I were to go to france, should they learn english because I don't want to learn french? if I go to mexico, I am expected to speak spanish, brazil portaguese, etc, etc... the people that founded this country spoke english, a good 90% plus (I assume) of people that live here speak english, nearly all people that were born here speak ENGLISH, and I REFUSE to learn another language in order to communicate with someone! (not that I refuse to learn another language, just not so that I can communicate with someone from somewhere else)

almost every immigrant I have met spoke at least enough english to communicate, but I have worked with people that couldn't speak ANY english (though one WAS trying to learn it) and I learned from people that COULD communicate with them that they had been here for at least 5 years (and have lived around others here for decades, like my childhood best friend's dad) I have met kids BORN here (again communicating through someone else) that couldn't speak ANY english, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a job in Greelly colorado if you don't speak at least some spanish. I should not have to accomadate you to communicate, I was BORN here, and I speak english as a first language, as do most americans born here. that isn't to say that among themselves, (non-english speakers) they should speak their own tounge, but when talking to me, use english, or I WILL ignore you.

and I think cruising ram does have a good idea of having children learn at least 2 languages by 7. In malaysia, (I think) children know something like 3 languages by the time they're eight or something!

Absolutely not! Aside from the fact that I think it's ridiculous to mandate something like language, it would just be adding more governmental control that we don't need. I don't need someone to tell me that I need to speak English in order to "get by" in this country (and, quite honestly, in many places that just simply is not true - my step-father's place of birth, El Mirage, Arizona, being one of them). I can go just about anywhere and see that menus, street signs, legal documents, etc. are in English and that it would be wise to learn English in order to have a better shot at "success" or "the American dream". What would be the benefit anyway? The satisfaction that one language is somehow "superior" to another? If we start getting into the politics of setting up national (or "official" languages) we will soon realize that we'd have to consider Spanish and probably a few other "minority" languages as official languages as well (just like other countries do...for instance, in Belgium, German is an 'official' language even though only 3% of the population speak German). At least I assume that would be an issue...I'm no expert

I think it's interesting that the people who are so against the government helping others (by way of welfare, affirmative action, universal health care, etc.) have used the argument that because not knowing English is a disadvantage we should make it our responsibility to make it the national language (as if that would somehow solve the "problem" of people not speaking English?). Why is it our responsibility to teach and promote English but not to make sure that every human being in the country has basic health care? That seems a bit odd to me.

The "learn it or leave" rhetoric is what's troubling to me. Last I checked we live in a FREE country and are free to speak whatever language we choose. Why it matters to anyone else what language I choose to speak is beyond me. You should be "fortunate" you live in a country where there is only one commonly available translation (Spanish) instead of somewhere in Europe where you have to dig through an entire page of things to find the language of your choice. Why is it so hard to understand that some people just don't want to learn English (or have had a VERY hard time learning it but are trying)? They aren't "hurting" (potentially) anyone but themselves, so why does it matter to Joe and Jane Citizen what language their neighbor speaks?

I think it is arrogant of us to think we're so wonderful that we don't need to learn another language. Aside from the fact that learning Spanish and French by virtue of our proximity to Canada/Mexico (not to mention Central/South America) would be a nice gesture, it would be beneficial in terms of business (international dealings) to learn other languages as well. In Belgium, the majority of people speak at least two languages fluently (with many speaking 4-6 languages fluently). And you know what? They don't care and don't get all in a huff because I don't speak French (it's French where I live). It doesn't effect them any and often they actually try their best to accommodate me with the little English they DO know (just as I do with the Spanish I know, which I think is just a common courtesy). My nurses at the hospital even apologized for not knowing English like I was some high and mighty person demanding their respect and admiration...oh wait I'm American and the world revolves around me, that's it - I always say it's not their problem it's mine (and they usually speak far better English than they give themselves credit for) and that they shouldn't apologize for speaking their language. I feel the same way about the language issue in the U.S. It's the non-English speaking person's "problem" (and I personally don't think it's at all a problem) if they don't want to learn English and while I feel it's my obligation to do what I can to help them (in relation to not understanding English), I don't need to be apologetic to those who don't know English (as it's not something in my control).

One of the main reasons I plan to homeschool is so that I can spend time teaching Spanish and Japanese (trying to learn Japanese right now, actually ) when they are most receptive (before around age 8).

Unless I'm mistaken, designating English as the official language does not affect learning languages in school, or about being considerate of immigrants.
It involves the publication of official documents, handouts, brochures, signs and the overall 'official' language of government and the courts.
This isn't about making people feel good, or feeling left out. It's about the cost associated with hiring interpreters for various languages and making all the above listed official items in a common format. Streamlining the language used in government cuts costs.
If we are to continue making 'government' language mutlilingual, where will this money come from?

true, but why should I learn spanish to get by in MY country? I personally don't care what ypu speak to others that speak your language already, but I should not have to learn spanish (which is the major language besides english) to communicate with somebody. I absolutley REFUSE to learn spanish in order to effectivly communicate with someone from mexico. (all other immigrants I have met have been able to effectivly communicate with me.)


if you can't learn english to pass a citzenship test you should not be allowed to stay here, as you are in this country illegally. (i have no problem with people COMING here illegally, as the process to get here legally is very difficult) if you are caught by the INS you should be given the option of becoming a naturalized citizen. the test required should be in basic english. (IE easy enough for a three year old to understand) if you can't pass it they should ship you home.



how, exactly would it add more government control? I fail to see this. it would require things like citizenship tests to be in english, and that you would be required to learn basic english to pass a citizenship test. and it would reqiure that schools teach in english instead of english and spanish. making english an official language would mostly be a paper thing, instead of atlases reading "no official
language" they would say, "english"



because, nearly 90% of the people (give or take 5 points) born in america speak english from the day the learn to speak. you should notice that I believe all humans (not simply americans) have a right to food, shelter, medical care, utilities and access to employment. but I should not have to learn spanish to get by in MY country. that's just bull! like I've stated, if I went to france, I would be expected to learn french, russia; russian, germany; german and so on. I would NEVER expect these people to learn english in order to communicate with me. but there is a sizable portion of immigrants (and more specifically, mexican immigrants) that feel I should learn spanish to communicate with them because they don't want to learn english. (there are some groups that want spanish only schools from what I understand)

I have no problem learning other languages, but I refuse to learn any for the sole reason of communicating with outsiders coming to america. If I planned on going to mexico, then I would learn spanish, but as I don't plan on going there any time soon I don't plan on learning spanish (the only reason I have now is to communicate with immigrants from mexico) MOST americans speak english as a first language, and immigrants should accomadate US, not the other way around

If you re-read my post, you will see I used the phrase "MOST OF US" when stating my position. I am not in the small boat as MOST OF US will rarely have a need to speak another language. Hispanics may make up 25% of the population, but most of that is likely internal. If they are born here, their first language is English. Are you suggesting that we learn Spanish for the small percentage coming from south of the border? I think not. If you choose to learn other languages, fine for you, as you live in one of the hot spots of language diversity, but don't mandate it in our schools. Other languages in our public schools should be electives offered to those who want it, not required subjects. The majority of us in the 'here and now' are English speakers, and bringing up the languages of Indian tribes has nothing to do with this issue.
The majority rules, and in this case it is not a form of tyranny by the majority. It would be tyranny to force minority languages on the majority population. BTW, most of the immigrants insist their children learn English, even if the adults are reluctant to do the same.
You suggested (see bold type) that I am narrow minded, but if anyone is being bigoted here, you are by resorting to name calling. Just because I, and the majority of the population, don't agree with you is not a reason for you to be casting aspersions. Your idealism is laudible, but the majority of us should not be required to participate in it.
If you get to know me better, you will find that I am very open minded and tolerant of most anything that does not affect me personally. I am opposed to wasted effort in our schools, however, and like I said, the time spent learning 2 languages was not time well spent. I said the same about solid geometry, remember?
You may also note that I never supported mandating an official language, just am opposed to requiring the majority to learn languages that they will likely never use.
And the rest of the world has already seen the value in learning English. That is why it is easy for a lot of our jobs getting shipped overseas, as so many of them are English speakers. Or are you suggesting that if we learn Farsi we can get our jobs back?
My point was, and still is, that MOST OF US will never have a need to learn or speak other languages.

Why not? We dont have an official language, so theres no reason you shouldnt have to learn Spanish. Youre country happens to be comprised of people who dont speak English, and how do you know that those who cant communicate arent learning English? Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, learning another language is difficult, and its takes some time to even learn enough to communicate, its not something that magically happens when you step onto US soil.



The test required IS in basic English, Ive already provided a link from Immigrations website. They dont provide tests in other languages unless youre mentally deficient or over 55 years old.



But they've already learned English, and the fact is, they dont refuse to communicate with you just because youre not able to speak their language. Like KMSouthern, when I was in Europe I had people APOLOGIZE to me for not speaking English. Ive never had anyone be rude about the fact that I didnt speak Italian or French, they just took as thats the way things are, and we'll have to learn to communicate someother way. When I got my phone line activated in France, I hardly spoke any French and they just set up a phone for me without asking me any questions (except for things like my passport, and my lease) and without screwing me over.



There doesnt have to be a valid reason, learning another language is ALWAYS a good thing. And I think there are plenty of valid reasons, especially if you want to travel out of the country (and I havent met an American who didnt want to vacation in Europe). Why is it Americans arent willing to accomodate, but the rest of the world is? In Japan, India, Sweden, and Norway you are required to learn English, but in America you arent required to learn anything. A host of other countries provide their students with the option of learning a forgien language quite young, and I know in France that English is the first choice.

Russinans dont need to learn another language anymore than Americans need to (no country does) but its not seen as this hassle/problem for them, its seen as beneficial. Why cant the US grow up and see it the same way?

As far as I know, every other developed country in the world has an official language, except for ours. Ours is the language by custom, not law. It is the official language in 24 out of the 50 states, though.
official languages

I think we should make it legal throughout.

English is becoming the language of commerce worldwide. It behooves all immigrants to learn english. I believe certain programs, such as printing ballots in foreign languages, are counterproductive.

An Official English Amendment might save millions in printing costs on government forms, ballots, etc.

I deal with a lot of immigrants, heck my wife is one, and I have never met a second generation immigrant who did not speak english

Personally I believe there should be neither an English only amendment or government requirements of bilingual ballots, forms, education, etc. My wifes native tongue is cebuano, never seen an official form in that language. Sadly, It looks like we are doomed to one or the other.

English should be the official language for the United States of America. Yes we are a melting pot of other cultures. But at the same time look at anything the government hands out now its in several different languages. Who determines which languages it get printed in, which is in fact costing the tax payers more money for printing information in several different languages. And even worse when I make a phone call to a company 95% of the time it asks if you want to continue in english press 1.

If we continue to allow immigrants to become citizens of this nation without learning our adopted language that we have had for over 200 years, yes soon we will have to learn several different languages. Which I do know several different languages from school, just need a refresher course cause I have not had to use French since I was in 6th grade and had a french student stay with us.

By the way, I do have an example how it directly effects me. Were I used to work we had several spanish speaking people and several of them could not comprehend instructions in english at all. So one of the people had to be pulled away from her duties any time we had to communicate with them. Taking away time from me, the interpreter and the non english speaking person. Which happened several times a day so that did effect me directly since I was a one of the supervisors. I do know some spanish but not enough any more to get the full communication across.

Are you saying that private businesses shouldnt be offering this service? Its no place of the government to dictate what a business does in this respect, if a company wants to cater to Spanish speaking people, why cant they? When I was in France there are a few companies that do that, and its not illegal. If we implemented a national language, having to press 1 because you speak English would probably not change.



How many times do I have to say it? We DONT ALLOW IMMIGRANTS CITZENSHIP IF THEY DONT SPEAK ENGLISH. The citzenship tests are IN ENGLISH, so I dont know why people are all frightened that they may have to learn another langauge.

I don't know that the fact (if it is one) that every other country in the world has an official tongue is any argument for America having one. First of all, American culture is, and has historically been, commendably fluid and flexible regarding the assimilation of other cultures. Basically, as I'm sure you know, the whole premise from the get-go has been that anyone who can make it here and contribute is as welcome and a part of America as anyone else (in theory, if not always in practice). The de facto national language has always been English, which is as it should be since the majority of Americans have always been of Anglo descent, but what about when Hispanics and Latinos become the majority? Spanish will be the de facto national language, and all the eurocentric ostriches will have to take their heads out of the sand and bury them in Spanish I textbooks.
Secondly, do you really want to live in a country like France? They have an entire branch of the government devoted to nervously protecting their official language from barbaric neologisms and American corruption, like a mama bird tending to a cracked egg. It's silly and embarassing, at best. At worst, this kind of mentality breeds cultural resentment and neofascism, a problem the French currently have in spades.

CountRockula, I think you're wery much exaggerating. Protecting our culture is one thing, but we're not neofascists for that! You're mixing too many topics together here.

Second, we're not oppressing foreign people into speaking French at all costs and times. We're one of the most visited country in the world, so it wouldn't make any sense.

If this is true, then I must ask why do we have ballots printed in languages other than English? That seems to me to be quite a large expense if everyone who is eligible to vote is fluent in English.

Really? Didn't Jean-Marie Le Pen and the National Front grab something like 4 million votes in a recent election? I'm not saying you personally are neo-fascist, or that most French are, but that there's clearly an strong element of this type of thinking in French political culture and discourse. And in my opinion, the strict legislation of a national language, at the very least, probably doesn't help fight close-mindedness vis-a-vis immigrants and alien cultures.



I never said I thought there were armed guards that forced everyone to speak the mother tongue, just that, IMO, this kind of legislation implicitly condones a cultural homogeneity that is antithetical to everything America is allegedly about.

Um Kim it is a problem when on the phone for example the phone company that if I don't press the number 1 key then I wont hear it in english. This is the United States of America were the vast majority of the people speak english, so if you still want to cater to the minorities that don't learn our language well keep up the good work and like

.

And remember KIM there are exclusions for certain immigrants that allow them to get around the rule you keep saying we are scared of.

As I said I am not scared to learn another language I know 2 not that well anymore unfortunately but that is my own doing to learn the languages. But when schools are teaching kids for example mexicans in california only in spanish how is that going to help those students from being productive people in our english speaking society?

I still don't see the big deal about pressing an extra button phones and ATMs. I know, I know, it's a slippery slope - pretty soon we might have to press (gasp) two buttons!



I think you've misunderstood my position on this, or else you just liked my turn of phrase. If it's this latter, thanks. If the former, I'd like to state for the record, I don't see anything particularly ghastly about Spanish becoming the de facto national tongue. I live in Los Angeles, and, in point of fact, have noticed that many people here already speak Spanglish, a kind of pidgin English that I predict will become nationally more widely spoken in the near-future. What's the harm? "English" (read: "American") as we're discussing it, is the mongrel dog of all tongues, and the most expressive, to boot. Languages, just like the gene pool, improve in direct proportion to their heterogeneity.

CountRock, about your second comment :



Your definition of culture is just different from ours. We're definitely not Americans! Anyway, I won't interfere with the subject anymore since it doesn't concern my mother tongue at all.

Bill: I don't mean to make this a personal discussion between you and I, but you do address an number of points which bear clarification.


No need to re-read, I know what you wrote. I disagree. MOST OF US live in what you elsewhere refer to "hot spots" - and those "hot spots" are spreading throughout the country and well beyond urban centers. This is mentioned in the link I provided in my previous post . If you follow that link you will also see that your underlined suggestion is only 7% correct. As I already quoted, for 93% of Hispanics in America, English is not their first language - whether they were born here or not. I am not suggesting that anyone learn Spanish, Bill, just that no one be forced to learn English.


The danger of making such statements has been repeatedly pointed out elsewhere. I am certainly not suggesting that minority languages be forced on anyone. The only ones here suggesting "force" of any description are the English-speaking chauvinists. And, yes, this is a case of tyranny by the majority. Apart from flat denial, how can you argue otherwise??


Apologies for your misreading of my metaphor. I was hoping to conjure up images of a tiny lifeboat compared to the mighty SS Melting Pot. I meant to imply that your experience was narrow, not your mind. As you have confessed that you've never seen any need for bilingualism in your life or anyone else's, I would suggest that your experience is very narrow indeed. And, um, I've seen no evidence that "the majority of the population" would disagree with my opinion - just those posting to this thread so far. Do you have any foundation for that? You could be right, but I'd be very surprised if it were a substantial majority.


I have no problem with that. I have certainly not suggested that anyone, yourself included, be required to learn any languages. In fact, that's kinda my whole point.


My point was, and still is, that MOST OF US could benefit from bilingualism, but that no one should be forced to learn any languages at all. Making the tongue of England the official tongue of America would certainly imply that they should.

That said, I certainly think it is to the benefit of every citizen to have a working grasp of the language of the majority. I have, however, only ever met two people in my life who lived in the US and had no English at all (one Finnish, one Venezuelan) - and both were making efforts to pick it up. Granted, many find it much easier to communicate in their native tongue, but I find nothing wrong with that in the least. I do not see a lack of proficiency in English as a major problem of any description whatsoever. Making English an "official language" seems to be addressing a problem which does not really exist.

While there may be some expense involved in actually translating a government document or two and printing certain forms in more than one language, I suspect the cost is ridiculously minimal compared to, say, another week spent in Iraq. This is a storm in a teacup.

Again, just because Hispanics may at some time in the future be the majority, it does not automatically mean Spanish will become the defacto language. Most of the increase will be among Hispanic-Americans, those who are already here and having children, not those who emigrate from Spanish speaking countries.
Eurocentric Ostriches with their heads in the sand? Cute, but hardly accurate.

Well, this certainly has gotten interesting since my last post....... eurocentric ostriches.

Anyway....... views on this situation are all relative. Mine is that if we have one standard language in the US, that everyone uses for public communication, everything will be a lot easier. Communication in general could be improved. I think it's as simple as that: it's not a long speech, or anything fancily worded or prepared, jsut a simple statemmment that I believe "sums it all up."

Perhaps you need to ask your state legislator or governor. I have never seen a ballot, or voting instructions, in any language except English!

There is a recurrent allegation that the problem of not being able to speak or read English is limited to immigrants. Most, in my experience work hard to learn enough English to find work, run their businesses, deal with the public, etc. Literacy Figures from the National Adult Literacy Survey (NALS) ; a comprehensive study of adult literacy conducted in 1992 by the Educational Testing Service on behalf of the U.S. Department of Education tell a story instead, of a failing educational system.

QUOTE

The study found that between 21% and 23% of American adults are functioning at the lowest level. This is approximately 40 to 44 million people. At most, people at Level 1 are able to perform tasks involving “brief, uncomplicated text,” such as totaling the entry on a bank deposit slip or locating information in a short news article, but many do so with difficulty. Others are unable to do so at all.

Of that group, only 25% are immigrants. That means, if my arithmetic is correct, that 75% of functionally illiterate people in the United States were born in the United States.

The entire report is worth reading if you want to encourage someone to stay in school. Those functioning at a level 1, for instance, earned a median income of $240 per week, in the average 18 - 19 weeks a year they were able to find work. The majority of this group, 62%, had dropped out before completing high school!

In the Seven-Eleven this morning, the owner was giving instructions to one of his employees. You'll be breaking in a new hire later, and she needs to know what's in these instructions. She can't read them. You'll have to help her fill out the forms, and try to make sure that she understands what she's signing her name to. You'll also need to sign your name as a witness."

No, it certainly doesn't automatically mean that; they could all decide to speak German for all I know, or care. My point has less to do with the specifics of what 2030 will hold for English speakers, and more to do with the attitudes of said English speakers regarding some perceived encroachment upon their inalienable right to speak in English in America, forever and ever, amen. This has been an English-speaking nation for a couple hundred years, but that's really not a lot of time in terms of the demographic and cultural development of a nation that could (hopefully) last for hundreds and hundreds more. And the only way to prevent a natural and fluid evolution of the American tongue is to impose some silly, xenophobic mandate like the French have, which is one of the hallmarks of a decadent empire past its prime - navel-gazing about the days of yore (Ah, Bill, remember when we didn't have to choose between English and Spanish on our ATMs? Back when America was truly...America.)



Condescending, but hardly relevant.

Private businesses should be able to have Spanish and English options if they want. If we had English as a national language, that wouldnt change. I dont know why you think it would, unless we become a totalitarian state where no one is allowed to speak any other language than English. The government CAN NOT force a PRIVATE business to use only English in its business dealings. So, if a bank or phone company, or airline wants to have the Spanish option, whats the problem? Do you realize the difference between having a national language and forcing businesses to speak English only? And obviously the vast majority dont speak English, or there wouldnt be a Spanish option on your telephone. What does it matter to you? Is it too comlicated for you to look at the number pad on your telephone and push 1? If someone wants to speak Spanish, or Korean or French, and they arent talking to YOU, then why do you care?



What rule are you talking about?



Sources, are they only being taught in Spanish, or both Spanish and English? CO had a huge debate on this last year, and CA was mentioned repeatedly, and no where have I read that kids are being taught solely in Spanish. And if they are, SO WHAT? We dont have a national language, so they can be taught in whatever language they want to be. The free market should dictate what language children are taught in (HA! Does anyone see the irony of that statement?), and if its Spanish so be it. I highly doubt that the people advocating English as a national language are really that upset that children are learning *gasp* Spanish, and really care if these children become productive members of society (since most of those kids are poor, and everyone knows God hates poor people)



Does no one read what I write?! I posted a link FROM THE GOVERNMENT with the requirements for the citizenship test. I dont know why they have ballots in another language, and frankly I dont care. It doesnt change the fact that the citzenship test is required to be English.

Why does everything have to be taken on a hyper-sensitive, personal level?
English is the universal language spoken around the globe. Why is it discrimination
to expect our new brethren from other countries to learn the spoken language?


Of course it is better to know more than one language, so let the immigrants
learn English, as their second language, and they'll be better off. They'll find
better-paying jobs, they'll feel like they are really a part of our great country.

We, in turn, can continue (or begin) learning other languages. Spanish would probably be the most beneficial one to know. My 5 1/2 year old son is learning
Spanish in Kindergarten and I couldn't be more pleased!!

Now, let's not make this about discrimination . It's about finding common
ground on which to communicate with one another. English is the best choice
for our "national language".

Actually, French is spoken more than English. Just a little FYI. And as for my own two cents on the issue...the idea of a national language is ridiculous. Why do we need one? Establishing an official language sounds a little too fascist and hyper-nationalist for my taste.

doomed_planet: There are obviously others here who are making this about discrimination. Perhaps you should direct some of your criticism toward them as well...

I find it seriously troubling that some feel that insisting our citizens learn to speak "American" is more important than educating our children - in any language. And, sorry, I do find that discriminatory. Forgive me for being hyper-sensitive, but I find the "Love it or leave it" attitude worrisome enough. But to say "Speak the language I speak, or leave it - whether you love the country or not" even more worrisome. Perhaps, in Spanish, they at least learn to capitalize words like "California", "Arizona", and "Spanish".

While there are quite possibly some here who are genuinely concerned about the well-being and career opportunities of immigrants with limited English skills, I am certain that lurking beneath much of this argument (for others) is a very xenophobic prejudice. I expect you've seen bumper stickers like "If You Can't Speak English GET THE HELL OUT!". I'm afraid that this thread strikes me as being, at least to an extent, an extended bumper sticker.

As I was growing up, I knew kids who had Italian grandmothers without a word of English - or a Polish grandfather who spoke only his native tongue. My partner knew many families in Brooklyn where Jewish grandparents knew little other than Yiddish. I find it odd that "speak English or get the hell out" was never an issue that I encountered until it began primarily affecting people of color - those Latinos, those Koreans, those Creoles, those Pakistanis - they're polluting the country with their "foreign" speech. But let's not deport dear old nonna - not poor, sweet babka - they're from "the Old Country". An ostrich metaphor has already been used in this post, so I won't recycle it here. But I would suggest that if you are seeing this purely as a search for "common ground" that you are just possibly being a tad naive.

I agree with the rest of your post - as I have stated above. I would love to agree that this is not, in part, about discrimination. Maybe you should try to convince me otherwise rather than simply drawing attention to my obvious (and admitted) personal flaws. Tell me how you can read a posting like RobJohnstone's and not detect a modicum of prejudice.

And my apologies, doomed, for expressing my opinion. I keep forgetting that we're not supposed to do that here.

I figure anyone staying here for a prolonged period of time will not be able to simply ignore the english around them. Eventually, I bet everyone will pick it up. It's the grammar that will be hard for most immigrants, not learning the actual speaking part of the language itself.

I think it's fair that you have to know understandable English in order to be a citizen. But otherwise, I don't feel it's all that necessary for others to speak whatever they want to. Ultimately, it's their loss. I definitely wouldn't do anything drastic and DEPORT them.

Just wanted to provide some statistics to further the debate.

Census 2000 statistics on language use and English ability

According to the 2000 census, the percentage of the population over the age of 5 who speak a non-English language in their home is 18%

7% of those people don't speak any English at all and 16% don't speak it well.

That means that approximately one percent of the population over the age of 5 does not speak any English at all.

The vast majority of the people in the U.S. do speak English. I see no need to establish an "official" language. We've never had one, and I don't understand the motivations for wanting to establish one now.

It seems improbable that English can be defined and limited clearly enough to make it an "Official Language."

What would Taco Bell change it's name to?

Would you be able to use an elevator, or would we be required to rename them "lifts?" No, lifts are a type of shoe, or a jack, or a bra.

How many of the definitions for set would we be allowed to use?

Would a pickup need to be referred to as a lorry? What would I call a fork-lift then? They were also called "Jeeps" at the factory where I worked, although I never saw one with that brand name on it; so I doubt it would be a widely recognized synonym.

A manufacturer bringing a new product to market might be told, "You can market that product, but you need a clearly descriptive name, drawn from the official dictionary, for your product which has never before existed."

This post approved by Spell Check

Most Widely Spoken Languages
English is the number two language spoken globally, trailing only Mandarin Chinese(spoken by 1 billion Chinamen).

I don't think anyone can make the argument (credibly) that English is not the "unofficial official" language. There is nothing about an official language that forces all users of it to drop their individual cultures. There is nothing "fascist" about it.

Every other country in the world has an official language (or two, or three).

Here is a site which advocates English as the official language.
Here is an article listing their reasoning.

Thank you, Amlord. I looked at your link along with several other "pro-English" websites, and I keep reading that English is the only way to unite us as people, but the sites fail to show how language has effected our disunity. I'm willing to listen, but as I stated before, less than 1% of the population doesn't speak any English at all. From this angle, it appears that any problems of disunity in this country have little to do with language.