I think it's a crying shame when a person can't even walk down the street without being accosted by some career mendicant that feels compelled to beg you for your spare change. Everyone of them has some story about being schizophrenic, disabled, or whatever. But most of them are just lazy bums.

Recently I was in Toronto Ontario, where this problem is worse than I've ever seen it in any US City. There is literally a beggar on every corner. One night while on my way back from the bar, some homeless reprobate crept up on me and scared the bee-jesus out of me in an effort to gets some money. Having a few beers in me, and by virtue of the fact that I was just plain sick of beggars by this point in the day, I let this miscreant have an ear full as I started yelling at him about not creeping up on people in the dark, begging, and why he doesn't get a job like the rest of us.

The next thing I know, I've got some liberal-minded Canadian standing next to me asking me why I'm harassing the homeless guy!!! I'm serious!! This guy thought it was terrible that I'm dressing down a bum on the street for no good reason! Suddenly I was on the receiving end with "You arrogant Americans have far too much money" and "There needs to be a re-distribution of wealth" and blah blah blah. You know, typical liberal blather.

He asked the bum how much money he needed to get something to eat and the bum replied, "Eat? I just wanna go buy a pack of cigarettes!"

In my opinion, beggary should be outlawed, and those that do it should be fined. The crazy ones should be in an asylum. The criminal ones should be in jail.

What do you think?

I have to totally disagree. People should have the right to be lazy, worthless beggars. There are some places where loitering laws may need to be applied, but generally a man should be free to pursue happiness in the manner of his choosing. I always carry a bag of apples to distribute to the bums. Got one right between the eyes.

While I'd agree that people should have the right to be lazy and worthless, I fail to see why they should be allowed to beg.

Where I live we have concealed carry laws and I pack a Glock 17 when I'm on the streets. Had I've been at home when the bum accosted me, he might have gotten plugged in the head with a 9mm protection round.

Begging is a public safety issue. You never know when one of them is going to mug you or snatch and grab your wallet/purse. I think if anything, I should have the right not to be shaken down for spare change on my morning commute to work.

If we wanna be nice and do the humane thing, put them in a home or shelter. Have them evaluated for competency and get them a job.

But get them off the streets.

You can make all the laws you want but enforcement is the real trouble. Begging is illegal here in Savannah,

Sounds great, right? The cops now can arrest beggars. BUT - who will pay the beggar's ticket for the first offense? (or bail the beggar out of jail after multiples?) - not the beggar - it's obvious s/he has no money. So we the taxpayers get to foot the bill for something on which we will see no return on our money.

I am at a loss for what to do. I never give anything to beggars on American streets (I've not been to any truly poor countries and I may act differently there). We have two soup kitchens in this town, two battered women's shelters, three homes for runaways and at-risk juveniles, one public mental health facility and two shelters. I'm not sure what else my city could offer to those who claim they need help. We provide an awful lot and yet I still get guilted when I am walking to the courthouse by that sorry old man who sits in front of CVS with his sign when I don't give him money. If I gave him money, he would still be there tomorrow. He's ALWAYS there; I can't make a difference and neither can the 20 people a day he does get to give him money.

What possibly could be done that isn't being done?

I'm in agreement that the panhandler/beggar issue needs to be addressed but as already offered by previous posts in this thread the solution is not in plain sight.

Only those who wish to be helped will accept help from the county/city in which they find themselves supposedly deprived of opportunity. Additionally it is fairly common for such people to refuse such help because these help systems in and of themselves are considered more dangerous than the streets by vagrants and/or beggars the authorities attempt to enroll in the system. I am not saying that shelter systems and other supporting agencies should be providing club med like environments for the homeless but I am saying the reservations expressed by some are valid in many cases.

I had opportunity to experience this first hand years ago as I was assisting an agency in my area by volunteering at a homeless shelter. Fights, theft, and an assortment of other undesirable activities were quite common and resulted in people leaving for the streets rather than be housed in a group manner under conditions that lacked any semblance of security.

I don't know what the solution is but arresting violators to any laws prohibiting begging will not solve the problem in the long term. Sweeps by law enforcement definitely clear any given area for a short period of time but the same faces return in quick fashion to pick up right where they left off.

I am also of the mindset that a portion of these beggars are in fact quite capable of working for a living but simply choose not to. Is being lazy in and of itself a crime? Should it be? It is rather obvious that each case needs to be examined on an individual basis as I am of the feeling their is a distinct difference between a professional beggar and a homeless person who very well was living paycheck to paycheck until the paycheck suddenly stopped.

I know that I'm merely months away from being homeless myself should I be handed my walking papers at my place of employment as are many other hard working people in this country. I also think it's important that we run this very thought through our own minds before classifying all beggars as bums that should be kept out of the eyesight of mainstream society. I highly doubt I would beg on the streets for money but then again I can't be sure because I've never been in that situation so I suppose anything is possible...no matter how unappealing such a scenario may be to me.

Well, first I think we should clarify what we mean by begging.

If your talking about an aggressive bum trying to hit up as many people as possible, I could see why that might be made illegal.

But if your talking about the guy who is simply rattling his coins while slouching against a building, holding up a can/hat to any who might give him change; I'd say we shouldn't hold him in too much contempt. After all, his mere presence isn't illegal.

Got any statistics to back that up, or is this just a hunch?

According to this, about 1/3 of the homeless have drug and alcohol problems, 1/4 are schizophrenic or bipolar, 1/4 are actually employed, and 10 percent are veterans.

I live in a big city and get hit up for change constantly, and yes, it's irritating sometimes - but c'mon, imprisoning the lot of them because you don't want to have your buzz harshed? Like Jaime said, there's absolutely no way, especially with our prison system full to bursting already, that it's going to happen. If I were you I'd just spend ten bucks on one of those "Don't ask me for s__t" t-shirts.

This could be seen as a First Amendment issue. Why do telemarketers have the right to call my house and solicit money but homeless people do not? When CO tried to implement a way to block telemarketers, all the firms screamed out that their right to free speech was being infringed.

I dont think its that big of a deal if there is some annoying bum asking you for money. Its his right to ask, its your right to say no and move on.

If we arent going to allow begging, we may as well outlaw all other nuisances such as: people asking you for the time, or someone asking you for help if their car broke down, or if someone asks you for a cigarette.

No statistics. It's just common knowledge. I fail to see how having a drug/alcohol problem justifies beggary. Those people need to be thrown into rehab.

And most mental disorders can be treated. When I was in Toronto I talked to a begger with schizophrenia, and he said he the Social Services give him a routine shot that kept it under control. So I say they should either be in an asylum or working.

And if you're employed or a Veteran and still begging, you've probably got a mental problem. Same thing applies: asylum or job.

As a society we could start a Government run Social Services program that would put these people to work. They could be cleaning up our streets and neighborhoods, digging our ditches, picking up our trash, washing our cars, or any one of the numerous tasks the rest of us despise or dred. In fact, we could take all the people on Wealfare and make them work to get that money. That's what we should be doing.

As far as this being a freedom of speech issue, that's patently absurd. The 1st Ammendment does not give you the right to harass people. As far as telemarketers go, their days are numbered. Sign up on the national "Do not call" list and then if one calls you, you can sue the company.

I hate to break it to you smash, but common knowledge doesn't fly here.

You have a point about harassment, and I agree that aggressive beggars like the one who snuck up on you are not protected by the First Amendment, but from my experience, most homeless either just sit around with a can at their feet or they play an instrument and hold the case open for donations. Most street musicians are good enough not to qualify as noise pollution, so there's no harassment issue there.

If you don't like giving money to panhandlers then don't, and if you are accosted by one and you feel like giving him an earful, go ahead, that's your choice and you're protected by the right to free speech. But with as much federal funding that we spend on the "War on Terror" and other such problems that the current administration deems important, spending more money to put these people in prison or in institutions is not really an option. Unless you're willing to pony up the cash to clear the streets of beggars, put up or shut up because there are many more serious problems than a guy on the street asking you for a quarter.

Common knowledge doesn't fly here? You must be kidding. So I guess, in your world there's no such thing as lamps, only "darkness suckers". And gravity doesn't pull, the Earth "sucks" as well. 1 + 1 = 0 and 1 - 1 = 2. Is that what you're saying?

When you see a begger on the streets, with all his limbs in tact, wits about him enough to come up to you and shake you down for money, what excuse would you give to justify why this person is incapable of honest labor? And if this person is in fact capable of honest labor and prefers panhandling, then this person is nothing more than your run of the mill, garden variety, BUM.

Alcoholism, drug addiction, and mental disorders to not justify beggary.

Playing an instrument for money is not begging.

Sitting on the sidewalk with a cup and not accosting people is not begging (it's vagrancy, and another issue entirely).

And I find it disturbing that you would compare the plight of homeless bums to that of the War on Terror (especially in the light of 9-11).

And while I'd certainly agree that there are more important issues than begging, my recent harassment at the hands of Canadian bums led me to post this thread. Obviously, you felt it an important enough issue to chime in (on multiple occasions now) with your two cents (gross, not net).

And finally, as far as ponying up the cash, I pay a tremendous tax rate in this country. TREMENDOUS. I have the right to feel safe when walking the streets, and I personnally do not feel safe doing so when I have BUMS sneaking up behind me in the PM. My government is obligated to check the behaviors of miscreant homeless bum panhanding mendicants.

And that's the name of that tune.

I hate to hammer away on this, but if you're going to make a statement as broad and damning as "Most homeless people are lazy bums," you're going to have to bring some figures to back that up. If every argument on this forum was backed up purely by anecdotal evidence, it would just be a lot of people yelling at each other, not unlike most discussion forums on the net.



First, there's no such word as "beggary," redolent though it is of the word "buggery." Whether or not buggery should be outlawed is an entirely different thread.

Second, being addicted to crack or Thunderbird might not justify begging on moral grounds, but in practical terms it does.This website predicts a success rate after one year for addicts in recovery at around 25 percent, which is actually on the liberal side compared to most estimates I've heard. However, if we're speaking purely idealistically, then yes, I agree that no one should beg (or be addicted to drugs for that matter), and we can end this discussion.



You're making an awful lot of assumptions here. I'd recommend you have a look at "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich. It might dispel some myths you're laboring under as to the correlation between slaving away at a minimum (or sub-minimum) wage job in America and actually being able to pay the rent, buy groceries, etc.

Why don't you pull out a dictionary before spouting off at the keys?

http://www.m-w.com/

One entry found for beggary.


Main Entry: beg·gary
Pronunciation: 'be-g&-rE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gar·ies
Date: 14th century
1 : POVERTY, PENURY
2 : the class of beggars
3 : the practice of begging

And secondly, once again you've failed to prove that beggars are in fact NOT bums.

Edited to remove personal insult

Enough said.

Being rude to other members will not earn you any credibility. Please take the time to read the rules and guidelines

and Barbara Ehrenreich?? Wasn't she that buffoon that told all praises for The Communist Manifesto? She claimed that Marx was brilliant and that The Communist Manifesto was "an excellent read"!

100 million people dead, but the Manifesto sure was a "good read"!

HAHAHAHAHAhA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, congrats on using a different online dictionary than I did - no listing in the Cambridge online.

I didn't realize we we're arguing whether or not beggars are bums. While we're at it, let's argue whether boats are ships. I thought this was about whether it should be outlawed, and if that's the case, you've provided no argument for your case other than the evident fact that you don't like begging. What else don't you like? Cancer? Why don't you start a thread about how you don't like getting rained on, too. There's no practical solution to the problem of some people being homeless and indigent.

Also, Nickel and Dimed is a great book - I take it from your response you haven't read it. Whether or not Mrs. Ehrenreich enjoyed the Communist Manifesto is an ad hominem argument and a complete non-issue. The Communist Manifesto is, by the way, a great read, whether or not it gave rise to Stalinism - a development Marx himself surely would've abhorred.

And 100 million? Once again, where is this coming from? The most liberal estimates of deaths in the great purges in the 30's stand at around 20 million - not that makes it any better - but it seems like you're just making stuff up.

Removed Personal Insult

Smash,

That last post was the first I've posted in this thread, and you need to read more carefully. I brought up the War on Terror to show that there is no comparison between homeless people asking for change and the more important issues that deserve our time and money.

I'm sorry for your experience, but deal with it and move on because you're not going to find many people who are sympathetic to a petty complaint such as yours.

There are simply more important things to spend the government's money on than keeping the streets clear of beggars such as educating our children, defending our country, balancing a shaky economy, and putting real criminals in prison. It's just not worth it to put panhandlers in jail or to spend more money than we already do to keep them off the street and in shelters.

OK, first of all, while the word beggary may exist, its a NOUN and you used it as a VERB.

And secondly, I fail to see how saying its an issue of the First Amendment is "absurd". You are not being harassed when someone asks you for change, no more than someone asks you what time it is. Now, being harassed is different issue ENTIRELY, and should be dealt with accordingly.

The no call lists for telemarketers is exactly the same as telling a telemarketer you dont want to be called. That is your right to free speech, saying, "leave me alone." You can say the SAME thing to someone who is homeless. Deal with it, there isnt going to be a "homeless people cant ask these people for money" lists, so you'll have to go about it the old fashioned way and say it to them directly. I know how painful this must be for some.

You have an incredibly black and white stance on begging--oh wait, I meant beggary--which doesnt take into account logic. If someone is of sound mind and wants to beg, they have that right. I know no one likes it, but there is no crime in begging--there I go again, what I meant was beggary. If someone isnt of sound mind, or is on the streets for reasons that you dont understand, why should they not be allowed to ask you for money? Political parties do it all the time, businesses do it all the time, whats the difference between them and a homeless person?

Unfortunately, drugs handed out today are not "mental trauma" solvers, they're more like "mood changers." Shots may be able to mask the effects of a mental disorder, but they certainly do not cure anything. A man who has taken shots will still suffer the adverse effects of schizophrenia, though he may seem to be nice and pleasant. I'm sure that most people with slight cases of schizophrenia are able to work just as well as "normal" people, but those with more severe cases would have a harder time.

Having just spent the past 3 days in the U Dub section of Seattle I think I'd seen and been approached by more "beggars" then ever before in my life. Is Seattle the homeless/beggar capital of the country?

Suffice it to say, my SO and I were walking into a local coffee cafe and were stopped by what appeared to be a junkie due to the tracks runing down both arms. He grabbed our shoulders and asked for 4bucks. My SO said "no' but did go inside, bought the man a muffin and a coffee and gave it to him outside. I don't know if the man was *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** or happy. He took it and left.

Our policy towards these people is, if they harass us, we'll give them food but not cash. The results have been mixed. indifference or just plain *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** off.

Most of the time they scare me to death. I don't know what the answer is other then putting them out of their misery. Yes, horribly harsh I know, disgusting even. however, when faced with an oncoming, screaming-to-himself-and-everyone-else-wild-eyed-filthy-toothless-barely-humanlooking being...thoughts like that DO cross my mind.

are some of the more severe people even salvageable?

I've seen some of the most down and out, drug-addicted people rise above that life-style. It takes a strong will and a lot of time, but it is possible.

It sounds as though you've had some very negative experiences with beggars and panhandlers, but not all homeless people use those methods and not all beggars are homeless, so when you offer to give food to someone who is asking for money, you stand a good chance of them being disappointed by your generosity, sad but true.

I am always forced to think of the alternative. People make mistakes, and once you're at the bottom with a drug addiction to boot, it's extremely difficult to change your situation. I have know people that wanted to be there and had no intention of changing, but I also have known people who wanted nothing more than to get out of their situation. Some of those people did panhandle, and if they didn't make enough money doing that, they moved on to prostitution.

I don't blame people for not giving money to people who beg. I understand the concept of personal responsibility, and one persons' mess should not be someone else's to clean up. I just want to point out that sometimes begging and panhandling is a lesser of two evils for the person who is doing it. They may scare you, but they may be just as scared.

I hope that you don't stop being generous. There are a lot of other ways to help the homeless than just giving money to panhandlers. You could donate time, money, or goods to an organization like Stand up for Kids or your local rescue mission. At least then you'll know that the funds are being controlled.

Does anyone find it disconcerting that we no longer find it easy to differentiate between the "real poor" and the "pretend poor"?

Regards.....Alan

We travel to mexico quite often and to be quite honest, we give a lot more to the "poor" there than here in san diego. The govt of mexico does nothing for that country's poor in comparison to the support systems for the poor here in the US. In fact, mexican govt tries to dissuade foreigners from giving to their countless poor children and mostly women beggars. maybe in that process of giving, we keep them from crossing the border to the US...something that Vincente Fox might have a problem with? hmmm.

aside from that when approached by junkies...and it's very easy to tell, my giving them cash enables them to keep using. THAT, doesn't help me at the end of the day.

Anyone who is homeless in the U.S. is just bad at directions. All they have to do is find the office in their area that gives out SSI checks. Having known a woman that works in one of the poorest parts of our nation in social work, I can tell you that there is enough 'free money' coming out of our government to support the homeless.

I'm not very familiar with the SSI program. I know that some people who are mentally ill can qualify for SSI, but as I understand it, it's not an easy thing to get approved for, and they aren't just handing out free money at the door. Can you provide some source data about this?



Which is why I suggested going through organizations rather than just handing out cash or food. Then you can be sure that your money is being used based on need.

a good suggestion it is.

these organizations you mention together with govt support systems then should negate the need of beggars from begging or so it would seem.

the question of differentiation of "real poor" vs "pretend poor" ala Alan could become more clear as there ARE provisions for people NOT to beg.

I'm not going to spend time looking for reputable internet sources of data for this thread, but:

You are correct SSI goes to those who are mentally ill. This can be used in the following manner. If I have a child who is bad in school, he or she will likely be put in special education. If my child is in special education he or she is considered mentally ill by the federal government. We can therefore draw SSI checks. Further, if I over-eat and become obese, I can draw disability checks. If I’m poor enough I can also get assistance with rent (section 8 housing).

They really do give out free money.

Side note: Many of the homeless in the U.S. today are people that were released from mental hospitals in the 80's after Regan cut federal assistance to these institutions.

Then why make a point based on evidence you refuse to back up? I'd like to believe you, but unless you do provide a reputable source I can't.

More information is available here

How about another side note: This coincided with courts rulings restricting individuals from being involuntarily committed.

Pan handling, in my oppinion, is a first amendment right. I do not like it. I do not like those who do it. Furthermore, I like Dr. michael Weiner's ideas in resolving the situation. He purports that the "bums" should be put into work camps/ assylums. I fundamentally agree with this. I lived in Dallas, TX. and constantly was acosted by these folks. There was one time when, as I was approaching a conveniance store, I watched a pretty little white girl be acosted by a piece of garbage, bum. She ignored him, he then asked me for money. I ignored him as well. As she was leaving the store, this piece of garbage followed her to her car, harassing her all the way. As I came out of the store he came to me for his crack money. I told him off. He ignored me. I tapped him on the shoulder and said, " I am not through talkin' to you". He responded with "what-cha gonna do"? I side kicked him him, and within minutes had a gang of homeless garbage on my butt! Obviously, I survived.

If it's a first amendment right, then why would you "fundamentally agree" with forcing them into work camps or asylums? I'm glad you survived your "homeless kung fu battle," but do you realize that what you did is classified as assault? You actually kicked a person who was not attacking you or threatening you with violence.

It's amazing that given your description of this interaction, you were able to ascertain definitively that he was trying to get money for crack.

Welcome to America's Debate!

To Campbejn's reply about SSI, I can argue with your point that they are handing out free money cause someone I know that cant work do to extreme daily headaches with medicines and all not working has been turned down on their first try for SSI.

Here's what's missing in this discussion. Two words: Private Property.

All this talk about what someone has a "right to do" or a "right not to put up with" and all these other "rights" are necessarily cloudy because we are talking in a public property context.

When a beggar is on public property, he certainly does have a right to beg, because his doing so does not violate the person or property of anyone else. He does not have a right to assault or threaten someone. The line between begging and threatening is cloudy and always will be, since different people have different thresholds for feeling "threatened".

But notice that we don't have these kinds of problems and issues to deal with when we go shopping at the mall, or walking around in Disneyland. When we are dealing with private property, the owner has the clear and unambiguous right to make and enforce rules about loitering, begging, etc. Owners realize that they will attract more people to their property if they strike a good balance between flexibility and restrictions.

If more of our public property were privatized, we would have far fewer problems with begging (and other problems as well).

Those who beg today would have to find other ways to meet their needs and would be far more likely to seek charitable help from churches, private agencies, etc - which would do them a lot more good than getting money from strangers to spend as their habits dictate.