Yes, the argument can be raised that cameras should be installed in public bathrooms.

But why stop there? How about cameras in the stalls? You might catch someone snorting cocaine or shooting up! And if you're doing nothing wrong, what do you have to hide?

I get the feeling that I've just walked in on a "spousal
spat".....

Yes, we should have cameras in public schools. IT is for the
safety of everyone involved. Not just the students, but the
teachers too. And it's a way to keep the teachers doing what
they are supposed to be doing - teaching.

The slippery slope argument is slippery, at best. I doubt it
would ever snowball to the point of cameras coming out of
the toilets (so to speak).

In this day and age, unfortunately, we need ways to better
monitor and protect our schools.

Who among us would have predicted in the 1960's that there would be such monitoring of activities in public places? I don't think that ubiquitous monitoring of citizens' activities is all that far-fetched, especially since 9/11.

I am all for metal detectors at school and public places, even though it inconveniences and sometimes embarrasses those who are subjected to it.

Look at the television shows. See a pattern with these reality shows? See the ratings, the curiosity of people who watch other people in daily activities that were previously, for many years, considered private moments.

Then think about the Patriot Act where governmental monitoring of citizens' activities has been given more power, where the checks and balances have been eroded in some cases, even to the point of the government being able to find out what books you're checking out of the library.

All of this is done for the "protection" of our citizens. Organizations like the ACLU are screaming bloody murder about it.

Provide the rationale that a medical professional will be monitoring activities in the washrooms and bathroom stalls, a professional who has an obligation to keep things confidential, and see the opposition to even that scrap of privacy in a public place melt away.

How much are we willing to give up for our protection?

P.S. It's just a disagreement, not a spat.

I agree with what you are saying. I guess I would be
willing to make that exception for the sake of "safety" in our
schools. But, we are running the risk of things getting out of
control, and losing important freedoms.

It seems like the world, in general, is a slippery slope of
problems. Environmentally and otherwise. Things seem
to be getting out of hand in almost every aspect of the
world. One day it will all come to a head. And the outcome
looks pretty bleak.

Cameras in schools is really the least of our concerns
(or it should be)......

Since we moved to Muskegon:

A young girl had her underpants stolen at knife-point in the bathroom of a discount store about a mile away.

A young girl was raped in a library bathroom downtown.

My daughter and I were having breakfast at a restaurant, something that was a Saturday morning tradition for the two of us. It was a way of ensuring quality time, and a chance to talk to each other. She said "We need to go home. There's a man in the ladies room. I told a waitress, but I still need to use a bathroom."


On the local news, they were discussing the latest use of cell phones. Small, easily concealed, and capable of communicating directly to the Internet, they are being used to make "porn stars" of people who are unaware they are being observed in just such places. "How do we catch the producer/photographers?" was the focal point of the story.

(Well, I'm drifting off topic, and giving the appearance of a spousal spat. I've injected my twenty cents worth, and likely changed nobody's mind. PE, I'll leave this thread to you. )

The actual topic is, (paraphrased) "Should public schools in America be equipped with cameras in: classrooms, hallways, etc."

(Apropos to the bathroom stories, I believe that the same-sex parent should accompany a child to the restroom.
Also, is a restaurant considered a public place or a privately owned establishment? If the owner wants to have cameras in the restroom for safety purposes, the customers should at least be warned by way of a sign on the door.)

Your post, Curmudgeon, once again brings up what would be a valid reason for restrooms in public places to have video cameras. Where will it end?

I am thinking that instead of having video cameras in school, why not have a self-monitoring student peer group to act en masse when violations of the rules take place? This would be a group of dedicated students willing to take on the responsibility of peacefully confronting and reporting situations that are harmful to fellow students and teachers.

This would give students who can be trusted a chance to provide leadership and exert peer pressure to ensure proper behavior in the classes and the hallways, and especially in situations where the teacher might not be around. Students can see where cameras cannot. Have cell phones (the ones with cameras) available for the student leaders to call the principal's office and/or 911, THEN use the camera when the situation calls for it. Peer pressure is very important to students; why not have them use it to their benefit?

Why would we burden students with schools security. And will the bullies not then go after the members of this group as “squealers”. And I have a real problem with even trying to turn students into informers. The cameras are the best method and are non confrontational.

As to how far should it go – well Singapore is one the lowest crime countries in the world and they use cameras everywhere in public places. We could use that in many inner-city neighborhoods today where law-abiding citizen are literally hiding in their apartments from the thugs that own the street.

What really gets me are statements like “we know of over 100 open air drug operations on the streets on Camden NJ”. Now tell me just how is it we allow this stupidity to continue.

First of all, it is the students' living space for the time that they spend there each week. Granting volunteers some responsibility validates them and instills a sense of purpose.

I am not suggesting that the students be glorified snitches, but be a peer group under administration guidance that polices its own for infractions that do not require a SWAT team or the narcotics squad. Positive peer pressure could work.

Students know where all the nooks and crannies are, who sneaks off to smoke in the washroom, and who harasses other students. Giving them a reasonable amount of power to peacefully confront those who are misbehaving is a step toward realizing what self-government is about.

This is not really the thread to describe the way such a plan would work.



I just don't see how steadily increasing the surveillance of everyday activities is really going to help, especially since the agencies designated to "serve and protect" us are already being stretched to the max, and police as well as other emergency responders are being laid off.

Increased surveillance only works if there is someone "Johnny on the spot" to handle the situation. Otherwise, it's a lot of money spent and a lot of privacy lost, whether in school or anywhere else.

We divert $87 Billion on top of the moneys already spent, to ensure that the people of Iraq have police, fire protection, public schools, and adequate health care. When funding requests are brought before Congress for police, fire protection, public schools, and health care in America; we are told that we already have a large deficit and too many taxes. Camden, NJ may simply not have an adequate police force, prosecutors, or jail space to build the cases, make the arrests, try the dealers, and jail them. This is unfortunate, as I have read that we are less successful at controlling the growth and trafficking of Opium in Afghanistan than the Taliban was.

(Sorry, I was responding to PE reading this post aloud, and didn't realize how off topic I was!)

I read this thread and immediately was reminded of this news story I read.

We must always be very careful of what powers we are willing to relinquish to a governing body...I feel this is especially true in regards to our children. I can not understand how spending all this money and resources on something so non proactive as recording acts of violence will in any way solve any problems. Why not address the reasons why children act out so violently against their peers? Why so much focus on prosecution and not prevention? These are children after all.....we should and we ultimately bear responsibility to attempt to guide them and rehabilitate them...the focus should not be on punishment.

Palidin I don’t think positive peer pressure will work in most cases. The morons that do the majority of the nasty violence in schools do not respond well to it. And just how would it work. Someone, who is not a snitch and will not “turn the person in” asks the thugs to please be nice?? Come on you know what the response to that will be. And the who protects the student who made the request if the thug feels he was “turned in” by a person or group?

I would never ever allow one of my kids to be part of this scheme. Cameras are unobtrusive and do the job. Yes they cannot be everywhere but the area where they are absent can be covered more easily with the camera covering the major areas of interaction.


As far as the streets are concerned the same rules apply. Folks should not have to hide in their houses. The criminals cannot be allowed to rule the streets and with cell phones a police car cannot get near a drug dealer without warning. We do not have enough police walking beats to do the job either.

If the courts are going to continue to put the drug drug dealers back on the street we need to do something to get the streets back. Let them do their dealing in houses. Then when the cops come there is nowhere to run.

Bucket. Obviously we have to be careful that the cameras are not put where kids undress. Neither do we want “peep holes” into those areas but this can be easily dealt with and does not diminish the value of the cameras.


Why don’t we focus on prosecution and prevention? Good question. As I have said, when I was in school one violent act and you were OUT for the year and that was it. In the late sixties we started some very bad practices. One was “social promotions” and the other was allowing kids to get away with far too much violence before we toss them – if we ever do. We would not want to damage their “self esteem” now would we.



After Columbine I was in an airport waiting for a delayed flight and got into a conversation with a principle and a teacher (different schools). I asked the point blant “how is it that the school did not know that these kids were bad apples”? How does any school not know?

The answer from both was immediate – we know EXACTLY who they are but we cannot get them tossed out. That is the grim reality of today’ schools. The trouble makers after ll have “rights” (read this as rights above the teachers and administrators).

The principal who headed a CA public school said it drove him out. He is now the principle of a private catholic school which he loves because they can rid themselves of the bad ones quickly and easily. He said in the first week of school he gets all the kids together and goes over the rules and the penalties for not following them. At the first infraction he tosses the kid out and makes sure everyone in the schools knows about it. The rest of the year usually goes on without incident.

I thought of the idea of the student peer group after reading a chapter in Starhawk's book, The Spiral Dance. A group of women attended the trial of a man who sexually assaulted a friend of theirs. The man was, unfortunately, acquitted.

As the man descended the courthouse steps, a large group of women surrounded him, about 4 deep, so that he could not move in any direction. The women focused on him intently. One woman stepped forward until she was about 3 inches of his face. She said, "We know what you did. We will not allow you to do it again. We will always be watching you." The man was "shook up"; he had nothing to say. After they held him in check for about a minute longer, they disbursed. To my knowledge, the man never bothered the woman again.

Peer pressure can be extremely effective. And it doesn't have to be violent.

Your alternative? Cops? They can be on the take. Judges and juries? They can be bribed or intimidated. Same with educators. The most innocent and the most interested in seeing justice is served with students ARE the students. To deny that they are capable of being fair and effective is at the same time to acknowledge that none of us can be totally fair and effective. Student groups can provide warnings to students as an incentive to not repeat the behavior. If the warnings are not heeded, then they can be reported. In each case, non-violence is prescribed.

In our society, we need to start pursuing peaceful ways of ensuring proper behavior, if we ever want to approach self-governance without using force.

And bucket's point about the responsibility of parents in this cannot be over-emphasized.

Cameras are not the answer. There has to be someone there to constantly watch and, even at that, the one who monitors the activities cannot always know the circumstances behind the actions. At best, cameras can determine the facts as they WENT DOWN. At that point the the innocent party is already a victim. It's very hard to demonstrate that they actually prevent violence and crime, especially when a defense attorney can persuade a judge to exclude evidence in many cases.

Edited to say: I would be interested in knowing how many students think that there would be a chance for a student peer group to take the initiative and handle things (to a reasonable degree), rather than depending upon video cameras to record every action of theirs in the classrooms and the halls of school

The kids parents would call it threats and intimidation. And what if it’s a group of tough guys? No thanks I will take the cameras – same ones in banks and teller machines.



Cops are only needed when a kid breaks the law. Cameras will prevent most of that remember.

But threats of what? Being reported? And if the child went to his parents, and the parents went to the administrator, it would come to light what the child was doing to get the attention of the peer group.

You know, this government, for the past two years, has been trying to tell the citizens to be more vigilant and not to assume that the answers to security problems are necessarily someone else's responsibility. So why not take it to heart, unless we are so utterly convinced that BIG BROTHER is all-wise and is going to take care of all our needs.

It is crucial that students be educated about the need for self government, especially when you consider that when they are the leaders running the country, folks like me might be living in some hovel eating cat food in order to pay for the medicine, and perhaps packing heat for personal safety. The students will be trying to straighten up the messes we have left them, and it will be easier if our educational institutions encourage the development of leaders rather than depend upon electronic overseers. Developing the character of our future leaders is crucial.

Cameras do nothing to instill trust or hope in the student population. And anyone who thinks that s/he is really "safe" because there are cameras everywhere is mistaken.

It has squat to do with ‘big brother” and has everything to do with people doing their damn jobs. The job of the school is to provide a safe environment to LEARN. The kids should not have to be the cops.

You idea of “we won’t let you do that again” is ridiculous. In some schools in this country that could get a kid killed and the real bad kids would not be deterred they would just put the “peer group” on the beat up list.

There are some kids who attack teachers for god’s sake. I had a friend who didn’t have a job when he got out of college so he volunteered in Malden MA as a substitute teacher. The first day he was there he had a run in with a kid. The kid was throwing paper in the class and generally disrupting when my friend told him to quite down he was told to f---- off. He then asked the kid to accompany him to the Principles office. On the way out the door the kid turned and took a swing at my friends head.

What this punk did not now is he was a Karate instructor and the kid found himself bouncing hard off the lockers on the other side of the hallway. The principle was overjoyed that the troublemaker got whacked and begged my friend to keep coming back. (The class he was in was dead quite when he returned to it).

My friend refused to go back. Teachers and students are NOT security. If we cannot bring ourselves to throw out the punks then cameras are required – or armed guards in every class

Pick one.


My bet is you will not find kids willing to risk their lives so you can avoid getting a “big brother complex”.

And the kid's parents did not complain about it?

Cameras do not prevent thefts or assaults in convenience stores, banks, or jewelry stores--they still happen. All cameras do is record what is happening. Now, unless these companies (and schools) also employ someone to watch these monitors continuously, the use of cameras still only record what happens.

You will note that the substitute teacher, who was a karate instructor, stopped the kid, the camera didn't, and the police didn't. That's what I mean by personal responsibility.

Let's not pretend to believe that the cops are going to be able to do everything. They can't now.

The kids parents were told the kid attacked a teacher and I am sure it was not the first time. All teachers are not Karate instructors and many are terrified of their students who know they can do just about anything where there are no witnesses willing to turn them in. That’s right the kids are so scared by some groups in school they would not even turn them in if they saw them beat someone much less confront them personally.


Did you know that one of the Columbine killers wore a longer leather jacket and had a swastika tattoo? Why do you think they shot certain kids? Would you want your child to be on the “hit list” of some animal like that kid?


Who said the cops can stop anything. They can’t do a thing until after the fact but the cowards who do these vicious acts are, for the most part, afraid of the punishment. And only the certainty of that will deter them. Cameras are that certainty. They are the impeachable witness that cannot be killed or intimidated.

If you want to volunteer your kids to be school security go ahead – not mine.

Do you have kids in school???

There are reform schools for students who cannot function peacefully in a mainstream public school.

Yes, I have a child, a very bright one who has a strong sense of right and wrong. When this child sees other students hurting each other, she has spoken to the students involved, but she more often goes to the teacher. I am proud of her for not looking away, figuring that it is none of her business. As a matter of fact, she has taken some karate and can handle herself to a degree, but she doesn't willingly go into any physical conflict, because one of karate's principles is avoiding a fight if possible. I am very proud of her for her compassion and fairness.

If more students took the initiative and realized that if one student is hurt, ultimately they all are, this would be a better society all around.

Surveillance can only record; it is people who need to be proactive.

I have taught Karate for over 25 years and agree with you on the principles. I will also tell you that unless your daughter has been working hard at Karate for YEARS she has no chance against a thug or two especially if they have say a knife.


Her bravery is commendable but my point is that it is not the job of students to confront violent people. You have no idea how vicious some kids can be especially in a group.

The job of our schools is to teach our kids and keep them safe. If your daughter or anyone got into a fight with another student SHE could be sued even if the other kid started it unless she had a witness will to testify for her. It is just not worth it. The tough inner-city schools are impossible for you to understand. I have taught teachers at some of them who studied only because if they didn’t feel they could protect themselves they would have to leave teaching. It is just not right that this nonsense goes on.

The problem with that "peer group" thing, is who would want to be in it? Who would want to be a constant snitch? Is there anything more repulsive than that? I would honestly rather have my kid being one of the ones causing the trouble, than one of the ones ratting on their peers. People like that tend to get a very well deserved beating.

As far as the cameras, they are a complete waste of money, as well as destructive to a learning environment. Schools already have metal detectors, armed guards, now cameras? What's next, orange jumpsuits? People who are expected to behave like criminals will not disappoint.

Then exactly how to you protect students and teachers in school systems that cannot toss out the bad apples? Someone has to hold these punks accountable and as we know the parents often come in and defend the kid against suspensions.

As they say a picture tells a thousand word and a moving picture tells the story without prejudice. The reality is that most schools don’t need the cameras but the ones that do need them badly.

I work in a Bank. Of Course a camera is not going to stop someone but it is there for a reason. If bank was robbed as someone else posted it is in black and white who did it.
As for a camera in school hell yes they should be there. There are a lot more of good kids in school then bad apples but I can't understand where a parent with kids in schools would not want them.
Over the years they have been many shootings in schools.
So what if a camera is watching them. It may or may not deter a kid from doing something wrong but I can't see it hurting any one.
And I hate the big brother thing. They are being watched. So what. Unless they are planning to do something wrong then a child I would hope would feel safer with a camera then with out.
I think most kids would feel safer with the cameras then with out. I would like you who have kids in school to ask them what they feel?

I'm not sure if anyone else in this board is in education but I have decided to play the "I'm a high school teacher" card....

Saying "There are reform schools..blah blah" or "Why can't kids use peer pressure..blah blah" is proof that these people have not actually been inside a normal high school during its operational hours. Elspeth I am willing to admit that your daughter must be an amazing kid and excellent student. I can say this with confidence because it is always the parents of the good ones who are so horribly disillusioned about what happens in a school. The only way I can describe what happens in the hallway between classes is to say, "imagine a composite of every Rap video you have ever seen...put sixteen year olds in the same skimpy outfits and zits on the rappers faces and VOILA"

The most common use for cameras in schools (they are now finally in my school) is to catch thieves. I teach in a very middle class Northeastern high school. There are kids in my school who get free lunch and others driving BMW's to school every morning.

So far this year I have heard about or witnessed these things:
Multiple thefts from the locker room.
Drinking and smoking in the bathroom.
Sex inside the school.
Drug deals inside the school. (this was my 17 year old sophomore who should have been kicked out long ago)
Sexual Assault in the school.
Drug abuse (taking acid/smoking marijuana) in the school.
Countless fights. (I broke up only one fight between girls so far)
Multiple thefts from lockers.

I'm sure the list is longer but I can't force all the stories to the forefront of my thoughts. It is CRITICAL that you realize I teach in a nationally recognized high school in Connecticut, the state ranked #1 in many areas of education nationally. I KNOW for a fact it is much worse in city schools.

People's memories of yore, about their own high school experiences are, for a lack of a nicer way to say it, useless for this discussion. Those schools no longer exist. We are in an age of self-empowerment. Children are now taught that their feelings and ideas come first. They are asked when they should go to bed, what they should eat for dinner, and when they should have curfew. Many parents have gone to the extreme to empower their children with a sense of self-worth and the understanding that they have rights. It has backfired.

Sixteen years later, when the parents are too busy working to talk to their kids and one day hear that little Jonny told his teacher to #### OFF they respond wildly.
Generally speaking, parents make last ditch attempts to "be there" for their kids because they feel they have failed in some way. It turns into a "What did that damn teacher do to you" crusade. In all of the above cases of crimes I only know of ONE parent that did not contest their childs punishment!!
That was the parent of the boy caught dealing drugs, who never even responded to the schools attempts to contact her...


We live in a cynical age where authorities are guilty until proven innocent. Politicians are crooked, police corrupt, teachers are either pedophiles or just hate YOUR child.... The worst part is that parents TELL these things to their children from an early age. I admit that there are plenty of bad politicians (more reward) and a lot of bad cops (power corrupts) and there are sadly, lots of bad teachers (get the summers off). However, MOST and I really mean most teachers don't get nearly what they deserve for supporting, teaching, and loving 120 kids every day, all day. Without cameras to prove the unruly kids and their parents wrong teachers' jobs, reputations, and well-being are in jeopardy.

And if an incompetent teacher or two get the axe more the reason to celebrate cameras in schools!

Kids in high school don't need to be taught about their freedoms anymore. They already know to call the police on their parents for punishing them. They know that teachers can't "make them" do homework, leave class, or listen to any orders they don't like. There is a rash of megalomania in the youth of today and I am far from alone in noticing it. Even in the face of video evidence I have seen kids AND parents refuse responsibility for their actions.

Finally, to end my novel I would like to say that by no means is this an indictment of all teenagers. I teach and coach because I LOVE the kids I work with and enjoy watching them grow up and become adults in their four years with me. There are plenty of good ones around to do the work this nation needs to have done in the coming decades. I feel safe getting old, almost

Edited to remove profanity bypass filter attempt

We are talking about cameras in public schools, these points don't hold any water in that setting. But, for the record, many stores that sell porn and booze do in fact have cameras. No problem with me.


What? Seems to me it means we would be all for being protected. The only control over lives I see it as having is controlling illegal activities. No problem with that.


I didn't know classroom feeds were going to be carried nightly by the local NBC affiliate! That's how you make it sound when you say 'televise a person's movement'. To have a security team monitor camera feeds or review tapes in the case of incident is quite a bit different than letting everyone in the school (or city) view the feeds. Nobody is condoning that.


Nothing will ever make everyone "safe". That doesn't mean we shouldn't take measures towards that goal. Cameras on traffic lights, in banks, in stores, etc have clearly been an effective tool in catching criminals, and it can definitely be argued that they deter crime. Even if they don't, at least they can be used to identify offenders and enforce rules and regulations, and that's a step in the right direction.

There doesn't seem to be a way to adequately express my profound sadness that hallways in schools must be monitored for a safe environment for the students and teachers. You're right, I'm fifty years old; I could not have countenanced these changes based on my own experiences.

I have the feeling that this country is going to hell in a handbasket, and no religiosity in the world is going to stop it. Our society is reaping what we have sown with our cavalier attitude toward morals and principles, and the indulgence and neglect of our children. Materialism has usurped personal integrity and a sense of duty toward the next generation. I guess, by what has been posted, that my daughter is part of a dwindling few who still care about others and follow the rules.

So more freedom is lost as a result of society's selfishness and neglect. I guess we deserve it.

I just accept it. I've had cameras in my schools for the last..8-9 years. The past couple years, they've installed some 'dummy' cameras in order to keep the dogs in line without spending money. Using cameras? Alright. But being so ..tricky about it somehow makes it worse.

Paladin, I hate to depress you about today's youth so I want to remind you that, at the end of my diatribe I admitted that there are many good ones.
Granted their attentions span is down to seven minutes and they have horrible fashion sense, but HEY, we can't ask for everything

I read a neo-Freudian theory of consumerism recently. I'll have to go back and look up the source if someone is interested. It goes like this:

there's the basic Freudian development from ID (our animalistic urges to eat and be comfortable) to EGO (we realize "self" and by default, the rest of the world around it) and finally superego (we realize that even the desires of EGO must take a back seat to the needs of the many sometimes and become moral thinkers)

This gross oversimplification is enough to point out the theory. It was said that modern Americans have subverted this developmental cycle and that is why Freud no longer makes sense empirically. Because Americans have found it easier to sate the desires of EGO by buying and consuming their way though its demands they no longer go through the awkward step into Superego becasue it is constantly put off. So children who have had their egos pandered to never have to learn to subvert their own needs for the good of the many...

Basically we are buying self-centereddness and a certain amount of loneliness for our children every time we shower them with the things they want...

I realize this sounds right now like a cheap justification to not do Christmas, but let me tell you, it was an amazing idea when I wasn't the one trying to elaborate on it


But yes, kids in school are qualitatively different in many respects. In others they are the same as always. BTW, we had $300 stolen from the boys locker room on Monday. i have NO idea what the boy was doing with that much money in the first place (sometimes they bring Christmas money to school because they go shopping afterward). And so far I haven't heard if our few cameras were able to spot the perpetrator....

What your post is not addressing though, LHR, (and maybe that is by design), is that this is yet one more instance where members of our society have to be watched to make sure that crimes are not committed--one more chunk of our privacy gone, one less reason to have anything resembling an honor system.

Check our bags and persons to make sure there are no weapons. Check our internet use to see we don't download child pornography. Check the books we are purchasing at Barnes and Noble or checking out at the public library to see if we're reading something subversive. Check our urine and hair strands for evidence of illegal substances.

And with each incursion into our privacy, we become a more controlled society. I'm not going to try to intellectualize the problem with neo-Freudian concepts (I took that stuff in college, and I found out that intellectualization of a problem is a way to distance oneself from the problem). I will say that in the absence of and apparent disdain for instilling values, religious or otherwise; and the desire of parents to somehow make up for their negligence (or shut their kids up) by giving kids whatever they want, we are losing our freedom in society.

If that's the way it's got to be, so be it. And the few "good ones" have an uphill battle. I doubt they will ever experience the sense of freedom (privacy) I did as a child. I also doubt that they will ever be able to remove the strictures that our society deems necessary in order to be safe.

One thing's for sure: A person driven by ego will not be concerned with doing something merely because it's the right thing to do. If we do not address the thinking behind the actions, we will continue to have to treat our society's ills symptomatically.

No, I didn't adress that important issue because it was alte and I was tired

It's a good point. As our society becomes more manic we pay for it in freedom.
Who lets their children run free through the neighborhood anymore?

No Paladin, I don't think any of our children will enjoy the same freedom growing up that we did. It is sad but inevitable. They will have technology. They might have more fuel efficient cars, automated services of every kind and a host of other things that seem to make life easier and faster. Oddly, those things only seem to pull us further from ourselves.


I guess it truly is sad that we have cameras in schools. I mourn the loss of dignity more than the loss of freedom though. People in general need to be guided much mroe then they used to. I have seen the elderly pass with more dignity than the youthful manage the health part of their lives. Twenty years ago would we be able to sue someone for not reminding us our coffee is hot? I blame the lawyers for it all actually, because they created the environment where those cameras are so necessary in schools. Without them schools would have little legal footing and would be at the disposal (in a bad way) of the students and irate parents..
This, I think, is a similar justification for cameras in the workplace, email tracking systems and IP sleuths on the company LAN, etc...

Wanted to say that even tho I may be a wee bit younger I remember my high school being just like LRH explained. My husband who is older than me also has the same kind of memories and my eldest brother who is 12 yrs my elder had a student enter his class and take a shot at the teacher with a gun. All of these experiences were had in different states and obviously school districts.
I think it is very disingenuous to make out as if the students have all just become that much more in need of the surveillance because their behavior has become so much more extreme than before. I think extreme behavior can be seen from all sides of the issue personally.

Here is yet another news story to add to the debate ... how cameras are helping to uphold the student's rights? Or an example of how the power of surveillance can be misused when unquestionably granted ?

Fedayeen-style sweep in Goose Creek has no place in democracy

Bucket I am definitely glad you brought up that article, but there were two things missing from it.

One was that they also brought out the dogs who played around with the kids bookbags like chew toys. The same dogs according to the surveillance video on CNN were in student's faces barking and would not obey commands by the police.

Also missing is the fact that not even the Superintendant had seen the video ntil two days ago. So, it seems that this video-taping is a one-way street. Whenever administration does something outlandish, it can easily be hidden.

What's the point of cameras again? Oh yeah, safety.

they aren't for safety....

claiming cameras are for safety is like saying arson investigators are for the prevention of fires. Guess what, the fire has already happened, their job is to determine what happened and maybe force someone to take responsibility for it.

yes yes, there is the long term hope that, given enough successful investigations there might be a deterence effect but that is hopeful at best.

Right now kids in high schools take ZERO responsibility for the things they do and the same kids have parents who tell them they aren't responsible. Teachers and administrators and even the school based police officers have increasingly had all authority taken away. Parents run the schools for better or for worse.
Property values in each district rise and fall with the grades on state and federal testing... there is significant pressure in schools for teachers to shut up and hold the party line, even if it means ignoring some pretty horrendous stuff. I know of rapes that have been downplayed in a schoolsystem because of the pressure of taxpayers who don't want the schools to look bad.

Cameras are needed because, without them there is no truth. justice, or responsibility in schools. I caught a kid sneaking back into the school after an illegal cigarette break outside. He told me, "We'll see if my mom gives a $%# about what you say. She won't believe you." Well guess what people, If she doesn't believe me then the kid doesn't have to follow the rules.
Case in point
And when he works with or for you he will act the same way...

at Mcdonalds

BTW, I consider myself to be rather liberal on social policies but more conservative in other ways. Concerning the state of our youth, though, I am no longer ready to "let kids be kids" because it has gone to far.

And do you think in regards to the article I linked that the principal of that school or the police dept will take responsibility for what they have done? They have seen the tape too haven't they? Is it going to take a court decision to make these adults admit to any responsibility?



Oh please. Do you know the SCHOOL can tell me that how I must seek drug therapy for MY child in order to allow them to attend PUBLIC school. If the school tells me that MY child is is some how in need of medication for ADHD or one of the other many new epidemics that ind. has labeled our children with they can require me to DRUG my kid. We are waiting on the Senate to vote and allow us as parents the right to decide what medical treatment is best for our children. They say they have zero tolerance for drugs in school but that isn't at all true.

My mother is a teacher too...elementary school. Some kids unfortunately come from bad homes and their anger, violence and inability to deal in normal social settings is quite evident from the start of school. There are kindergartners and first graders who violently attack teachers or other students and throw the F word around. Our attentions on this issue need to be directed from a passive observer to a positive force for change. What will one accomplish by just watching?



Are you claiming that without the cameras in school we have chaos? If the cameras are the only way our schools intend to teach our children truth, justice and responsibility then maybe I really should start taking my husband's request to homeschool a little more seriously.
Besides as the article I posted claimed...maybe the kids were faking the drug scene for the cameras..maybe the camera always doesn't tell the truth..could that be a possibility? Also I think it is very very possible (and I have already given 2 examples of) that the camera can in fact bring injustices too.

It isn't that the cameras caused a lack of dignity, but that the lack of dignity caused the need for the cameras. People simply don't take responsibility for their actions anymore. They don't stop and think who will be affected by what they do. They don't care if they hurt someone. If they did, then we wouldn't need cameras in the schools because there wouldn't be much for them to catch on film.

Society has completely gone to hell.

No, as I said in an earlier post,if a camera gets rid of a bad teacher or two in the process then that's good too....



It is against the law for me, as a teacher, to even suggest that a child might be ADHD or needs any sort of medication. If I feel that a child is having a lot of trouble staying focused in my class the most I can do is suggest to the parent that they take up that issue with a doctor. And even then I have to be VERY diplomatic. Teachers aren't trained in applying the DSM-IV in evaluation of psychological problems. Only doctors or psychiatrists can tell you your kid needs help.
If someone's son is being disallowed form entering school then he has broken a law while in school. It is against the law for a school to deny anyone under 21 an education unless they prove, to police, that they are a danger. Once again, the school is not the judge on this matter. Teacher have been killed before by students they tried to have removed from class.
And anyway, why should a parent be able to "decide what medical treatment is best for [their} children" ????? Even doctors follow an ethical code to NOT provide medical treatment for family members as their emotional connection could interfere with their decision making process. And they KNOW medicine. So now the Senate should allow truck drivers and accountants make medical decisions just because they are related???? Makes sense to me....




I'm not "watching" .. I'm in the school every day trying to make change...




No, without the cameras we have an environment where parents and kids (and teachers sometimes) can play ignorant victim and deny responsibility for the things they do. The cameras are innocuous, they are placed in very neutral places. In order for a teacher to film themselves while teaching (a requirement for certification in my state) teachers have to send home notice to the parents of the filming and get an ok from all of them. The cameras are in halls and entryways in most cases, though I think some HAVE been put in classes in some states.



If the kids were "faking" a drug transaction, for some mysterious reason, then they will not get in trouble. The reality is that, in every school, the "druggies" are well known but hard to catch. They tell everyone what they do, even teachers. Like their rap star icons they are proud of their life-style and take every opportunity to show it off. I am told daily about various kids' drug habits...
So the schools know who is doing what in school because kids can't keep secrets. The trick is catching them in the act.




We will never avoid injustice in this world. If you are on this all about injustice then you need to start worrying about bigger issues than cameras in schools. We swim in aggravating, stupefying injustice every day. Our world seethes with it like a poisoned animal heaving for its final breaths... and you think a few cameras are the problem?
Personally, I'm ok with the potential for a slight chance of injustice because of a camera... The benefits of all the justice that IS done daily far outweigh the minor emotional bruising the occassional teenager might take. They are tough and learn from their experiences better than their parents do, don't worry about them so much.


Oh, and finally, I would like to mention to all that I don't intend to be drawing a death, doom, and destruction view of schools. Even the worst school systems have gold in them. Kids are capable of things that adults just can't do. They change seemingly painlessly. They adapt to new situations and people with ease.
They enjoy life rather than measure it....


I just spent a 12 hour day with my track team at an excruciatingly long indoor meet. It made my legs ache but MAN was it fun to hang out with them....


my $.02

that's a huge generalization. being in highschool, i can tell you, the only thing i've gotten in trouble for this year is not tucking my t-shirt in, and not standing for the pledge. i'm not saying that i've smoked, drank, and brought weapons to school and not been cought, i'm saying that not tucking in my shirt and not standing for the pledge (it's against policy not to here) about the extent of what i've done this year.

could it be that your occupation has made you more cynical?

saying "Cameras are needed because, without them there is no truth. justice, or responsibility in schools." is not very different than saying "highschool kids have no moral fiber or conscience whatsoever"...had more to say, but it will have to wait.

Can you think of one generation that has never uttered these same words? The difference is that placing cameras everywhere has never been as feasible as right now. Do you think that if in the 50s constantly keeping an eye on kids was a possibility they would have said "Nah, no need". If anything they would be more likely to do it, since the idea of kids having rights wasn't entertained at the time.

Every generation seems to think that kids have never been "quite this bad". There is nothing new under the sun. Cameras in schools are unneeded and unacceptable.

Well I think what he is saying is many but not all kids are not taking responsibility for their actions and this behavior affects all students.

You will not get tossed out for not tucking in your shirt but the sad thing is you cannot be tossed out for doing a lot worse.

Schools are for learning. Kids that are not ready willing and able to do that don’t belong in school.

Sure kids have always acted up but in the 50s or even the early 60s the real dirt bags got tossed out. In the late 60s we introduced the idea that the schools should find a way to teach the unteachable and just ignore their drug and other problems. This is now way out of hand and has even cost kids their lives and the worst of the nuts eventually hurt other students.



Yes it is time for the cameras. They are long overdue in some schools.

I think you are mixing apples and oranges here. The "nuts" that snap and go Columbine, aren't the "nuts" doing drugs, skipping class, etc. The school shootings are almost always a result of bullying, and if anything, the old-school attitude of "boys being boys" and getting bullied being accepted as a natural consequence of non-conformity. There are may problems with schools, many problems that kids have, for various reasons. Cameras seem to be just a way to keep an eye on "the kids these days."

People seem to be a lot more content addressing the symptoms than the underlying causes. Cameras will not do a thing in a school environment, except create an environment that is hostile. Think about it: as secure as prisons are, somehow drugs and weapons still exist there. You think cameras in the hallway of a school will do anything than provide you with a false sense of security.

I don’t agree. The reason the violent and the drug dealers can survive in a school is the difficulty is getting enough proof to get them arrested or booted out given the schools policy of keeping even violent students.

The cameras SHOW these thugs doing what they do, which should lead to getting them booted or as a minimum treated.


Just read the teachers statements above. Could anything be more clear?

Yes, I respect the teacher's informed opinion. But my opinion is also based on experience. I graduated from high school in 1999, not that long ago. And cameras will not get a thing done. When I was in school, we had a system of avoiding the security guards, memorized when they go where, posted lookouts, etc. to get away with what we wanted to get away with. Cameras would just be another thing to work around, a temporary inconvenience at the worst. And a colossal waste of money. Would you be willing to make schools as secure as prisons? Because even in prison they get away with drugs, violence, etc. Simple human ingenuity is all it takes. So many adults seem to think that kids and teens are SOOOO much dumber than them. It's not true. But being under-estimated is a powerful tool, and kids, teens especially, know how to use it quite well. But people seem to love the false sense of security that things like this provide. It's like the people that think that banning gang colors will stop the gangs or gang violence.

And the parents that seem to not care when provided with evidence of their child's breaking a rule, still will not. I doubt they all truly believe their child can do no wrong. I know if my kid broke a rule that I didn't care about, it would more or less be "don't get caught again". If it was something I did consider important, I wouldn't need camera footage. I would take it seriously to begin with.

Ya Ya you cannot stop all illegal activities but just reducing it in the worst schools and insuring the safety of most students and teachers is the goal and cameras do the job.

Sure you can still get away with picking up a couple of joints but you would not be able to do serious violence in a classroom or hallway. And it gives the security folks fewer areas to worry about (like the bathrooms).


And if the parents don’t want to believe what they see it will make it easier to boot the thugs and dealers out and defend the action in court if necessary.

Cameras are not needed everywhere but some schools need them badly.

Just a side note: Imagine a kid who is about to be beaten up running down a corridor of his high school where he knows there is a video camera, only to find later on that the camera he thought was taping the beating was a "dummy."

I would sue the pants off the administration if it happened to my kid.

If you're going to do something, don't do it halfway. Either install real, working cameras or don't install anything, because it might be the victim, not the perp, who is fooled.

This should be a new thread I think...

That may be the case in your school district LHR but that gag order is only implemented in some school districts and is not federal law or anything. This is a big problem in the state I currently live in...over diagnosis of ADHD. It was found by a independent study that 20% of white male students in elementary school in my state were diagnosed as ADHD and under "treatment" which means being drugged. What is this only a white male disease?...I doubt that. There have been a few highly profiled cases in regards to this issue that show the GROSS displacement of power that the school has over the family...it is a very disturbing thing for any parent.

Thanks to the IDEA act (this is a federal law) ADHD is now considered to be a disability and requires the school to devise a Individualized Education Plan which means more Federal money for the school. Schools are legally required to identify students they suspect of having any mental disabilities. So I personally think the gag order you talk about does nothing but EXCLUDE parents from participating in their child's education. Why can't the teacher talk to the parents about any behavioral or learning problems that may be occurring? Why can't the teacher speak to the parent about what they may feel would help? Why all the secrecy ? It is MY child after all I should know what is going on...to me this will breed nothing but mistrust. All of this has to be done behind the backs of the parents and then a third party must be involved to then speak to the parents and make the recommendation for evaluation....as a teacher are you allowed to attend these meetings in which the recommendations are made? And are you allowed to answer any questions the parent may have of the child's behavior in class..or does the gag still apply? Really I am interested in knowing how this works.

See it is the same thing with these cameras...in the first article I posted the parents were not told about the cameras even tho they were placed in an area where children were undressing and even tho the images were stored where anyone could easily view them. WHY!? Why again was there a need for secrecy?


No that is not true...as I have shown with the first article they are NOT always placed in a neutral zone...quite the opposite!


Ok I have to question how well you know children now if you seem to think this would be a very unlikely scenario. Am I the only one around here who remembers what it was like to be in highschool? Even my own children who are very young often fake doing something that I have told them was naughty because they think it is fun or a funny thing to do. Kids do this..I did this...it is not a mysterious thing it is just being a kid. And your wrong they did get in trouble...they got lined up with vicious dogs barking at them them, they got officers screaming at them and guns pointed at their heads and they got treated like criminals all for nothing...no drugs were even found.


I am not only worrying about the cameras...I am concerned as a parent about the environment of the schools in which my children will learn in and grow in. I am ....as a parent of a public school student ..concerned about my and my child's relationship with the school, her peers and my child's teachers and I am concerned in how the school will deal with my child or any of her peers if problems do arise. As a teacher I would think that you would welcome a parent like myself...because I care a GREAT deal for my child and her school experience. We are not adversaries LHR we are part of our children's futures and we need to work together and not be so focused on making one another take responsibility as we are ALL responsible for our children.


Goh! You are a negative. I think as a parent I am required to be concerned that naked images of my child may be up on the internet for easy viewing. You are downplaying a lot of the points I have brought up and not even addressing the two examples I have given. I also honestly fail to see how a completely uninvolved, inactive thing as a camera is going to be a force for any kind of positive change.





Ewwww...you really hit a chord with me on that comment...and I am actually (no I am not exaggerating) shocked that a teacher would feel this way. Do tell me LHR why the government should have more authority then the parents on deciding what would be the best medical treatment for a child? This is my child..she is a minor and she can not make these decisions for herself so someone must make them for her and I believe that someone should be the parents..unless and this is a BIG unless..they are proven to be unqualified themselves to do so or it is a matter of life or death. Do you yourself just go to a doctor and follow his orders? Or do you explain your problem and ask for assistance? If you feel a medicine you are taking is making you feel worse or that you do not like the side effects do you expect to be told..too bad I told you to take it so you must and if you don't I will call the police?

It seems to me, that in order to try your hardest and maintain a proper work ethic, one needs to not feel like they are schooled in prison..and, I know someone will say "they can take it" and whatnot, but morale is important. And, I'm not so sure we can take it, generally. Kids are dropping like flies..it's revolting. But, morale is important for a place where you spend such alarge portion of your lives.

I feel if presented correctly the “morale” issues will not apply. The cameras are to insure student safety. How can that lower morale?

How about the effects of violence, the threat of violence and the results of drugs and drug dealing in schools? Is this not a morale issue?

How can we believe that cameras are worse than some of the things that will happen with far greater frequency in their absence?

How high can the morale be if cameras are necessary in the first place? They aren't putting them in for their health, it's because crime, violence, drugs, etc. are rampant on campus. If you have to worry about the kid next to you blowing your head off, how happy can you be?

Right, Cephus. The first thing that struck me was "what is wrong that they think the cameras are necessary?" Which means they aren't necessary except perhaps as an emergency stopgap.

What's wrong is that there's soemthing badly amiss with the way these schools are run. The schools are too large certainly, that's common throughout government school systems. Lack of proper standards and discipline are common too, and perhaps the Fairfax schools have other problems as well. I'm against the cameras; instead fix the broken schools.

Which leads us to another topic: How best to fix the schools? IMHO government schools need to be abolished to truly fix them, though perhaps that should be gradual and incremental.