http://www.news8.net/news/stories/0703/96116.html

Fairfax, Va. - The Fairfax County school board voted Thursday night to allow security cameras in public schools and school buses.

The plan allows video cameras on school, grounds and buses, but does not require them. Fairfax has yet to approve funds to buy the cameras.

Board members defended the measure, saying the cameras will help deter and detect crime and "inappropriate behavior.


That is just a segement of the new laws that may be getting passed across the country, this subject matter is whether or not each public school in america should be equipped with cameras in: classrooms, hallways, etc.

What is your opionion on this Subject?

My Opinion is that it is not right at all for cameras to be put up in schools.
America is about Freedom, and by putting cameras up in Schools, it is not showing our kids the proper roots of freedom.

People say it is all about the Bullying and violence that is going on each day in school, but im sure we can stop this if we tried. Maybe isolate these kids into a private sector of the school, like a cooling of period.

Debate away.

This is nothing but boiling the frog. A little here a little there. Turn the temperature up slowly and the frog won't jump out of the water. The face scanners that were put in airports after Sept 11, are being used at the Statue of Liberty. Big Brother is here.

You did not answer my question chris.
Anways At buffalo international airport i dont have any recalection of face-scanners?

Jimbo - let's not derail your own thread. Keep the debate to cameras in SCHOOLS, please.

What's wrong with having monitoring cameras in public schools? As long as they're not in the restrooms, I think it's not an invasion of privacy. As long as the cameras are in public places, it's no worse than if you had a person standing there and monitoring the children.

My beef with it though would be how would it be financed. If they'd have to raise taxes to put up cameras, I'd be against it.

I see no problem.

Obviously the need to bring these cameras into schools and buses is to deter students from beating the hell out of each other, intimidating each other, ganging up on one another, sexual misconduct, substance misconduct and all misconduct that I remember going on when I was in HS. If they know they are being watched maybe they'll behave?

This survellience would help the students who are the brunt of violence from their peers. And in this climate of endless litigation, might be useful in incidents where racial crimes, sex crimes and other crimes are prevalent yet proof elusive.

This is what happens when the worst of human nature gets out of hand...unfortunately.

Keep the cameras in schools, God only knows what goes on in schools that people don't know about, that could be stopped with a camera.

CP

I have no problem whatsoever with cameras in schools or pretty much anywhere else. There is no right not to be captured on camera (except in places where it would be an invasion of privacy).

Exactly what is it you're afraid of being seen doing, Jimbo?

Here in Illinois there are several schools in Chicago the have metal detectors. They have to. I have to see if I can get a link to see how many guns are actually found in possesion of kids in the schools.
And it is not only guns. There are knives drugs and everything else that is illegal and a potential danger to all in attendance.
So do I think cameras should be allowed why not?
Osteng they already are payng for metal detectors in the Chicago schools and I don't think cameras would cost much more.

I'm really conflicted about this one, having been thoroughly scared by novels such as 1984 by George Orwell. Who controls who is watching these videos? If the person watching is unscrupulous, what is to stop him/her from using it for blackmail purposes? Government officials have not been above corruption, so why would Joe Schmo the video watcher be?

And how many people will shirk their responsibility by failing to act against someone breaking the law if they think the 'babysitter' is watching and will take care of it?

All you have to do is feel the urge to scratch yourself in a private spot while shopping in Wal-Mart to know how uncomfortable the thought of being constantly monitored is. But after a while, you scratch anyway, whether Big Brother is watching or not. As humans, we'll adapt, regardless.

But how much are we willing to sacrifice our privacy in order to lull ourselves into thinking we're safe?

(Edited to say: However, I will think metal detectors in school are a good idea until I have a hip replacement someday and the prosthesis triggers the alarm! )

I stated that by Setting up cameras within the school, its doesnt show us kids what americas about, understand? As in, our sense of freedom.

My opinion is simple. We operated without the use of camera's for years, let's stick with what works. I think if they want to crack down on the drugs and the bullying, they should enforce strict penalties and teach morals to the children of today. With america becoming more and more a secularist nation, there is also a lack of moral fiber holding the country together. Parents are not passing down their value systems as it was done in the past. Most parents just use the TV as a babysitter. I don't think the solution lies in camera's, I think the solution lies in morals and values. If we can get morals and values across to today's youth, I think we would see a greater decrease from the bad stuff happening today. Let's put more money into books, teacher's salaries and after school programs, and less on security measures that are not needed.

--Rob

While I agree with you here Rob, aside from parents teaching their kids right from wrong (morals) and I'd like to believe that ALL of them do, that does not necessarily say that kids will act according when away from their parents.

that being said, if a proposal to "teach morals" to kids in schools should EVER come up, the ACLU would be the first to freak out all over it. Civil liberites and such...

Good fodder for a new thread, but let's not drift off-topic here, please....

Isn't that lovely? You see, reading stuff like this makes me wonder how the ACLU ever got credibility at all. I don't think we should not act on something do to fear of the what the ACLU might or might not do. We need to fight to get our country back from the lunacy that has been occurring for the past 50 years or so, probably even further back.

The school systems are contradictory anyhow. They will not allow Creation to be taught in public schools because of a fake separation of Church and state, but they will teach a theory that is 160 years old, never proven, and never will be proven called evolution. I find that to be insane. My head hurts just thinking about how idiotic that is. I think we need to get past these attacks of our rights to freedom of religion and freedom of speech. separation of church and state is a joke created by secularists who have a vendetta against God. I believe that muslims should get time off during school to pray, I believe all religions should be touched upon in school, I believe we should not alienate everyone by not allowing any religion at all.

--Rob

Rob, perhaps you were posting while quarkhead asked us to get back on topic...

This is the question we are to debate:

How, exactly, does that stop your freedom? What are you doing in public that you don't want captured on camera? Perhaps if there is something you don't want to be seen doing, you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Considering cameras were present in Columbine High School and all they did was capture the horrific event for future viewing I'd have to say that their application in schools does not appear to serve as a deterrent to students that are determined to be disruptive, violent, or destructive.

True, Being caught on camera will not deter you if you are bent on murder and suicide, but it will deter you from violently hazing a freshman, or dealing drugs in the hall. The Columbine incident is extreme, not exactly the every day occurence in school halls.

So i think there is a validity in cameras deterring negative activity in schools. most kids don't want to be caught. sure, some don't care, but for the vast majority, knowing that you can be recorded will stop you from hitting the geek walking by. no one likes detention.



Quane

Now I think LIVE cameras in schools will be the best thing since it will immediatly report the incident to the correct authorities

But putting cameras up is treating everyone as a suspect. What did the geek being bullied do to deserve being monitored 24 hours a day?
What I don't get about those who are happy to turn over our privacy is that they don't seem to acknowledge that those doing the monitoring are human just like us, no better or worse. How are we to know the ones monitoring the cameras aren't pedophiles, or simply snickering at the geeky kids?
Remember you own adolescence, how awkward you were at times? Now imagine that you are being monitored 24 hours a day. Is it worth putting kids through that simply so we can pretend to be doing something?

In addition to the cameras serving no useful purpose in the Columbine incident I would add that from a personal perspective I do not think cameras in schools are a good idea.

I've heard other participants in this thread voice the same concerns regarding the message this would send to children attending schools utilizing cameras. Do we really want to send the message to our children that society is so unsafe that devices that monitor our every move are necessary to ensure our ongoing safety?

Considering we have a Constitution that clearly values our rights to privacy I find the use of cameras in school as contradictory to such ideals and that such a practice chips away at the very foundation of what a free society is supposed to stand for.

A camera here, a microphone there, a GPS tracking device here, a Patriot Act there.

I suspect we have already opened the barn doors regarding a reduction in our rights to privacy on numerous fronts and I fear it's just a matter of time before there isn't much left to protect.

The presence of cameras in schools can produce behaviors in students that authorities might not like.

Some kids like to grandstand in front of cameras, rather than mind their P's and Q's between classes. "Acting out" behavior could actually escalate, at least until they are bored with the thought of being monitored.

In addition, those bent on mischief just learn to be sneakier, waiting until the geek uses the lavatory to do their dirty work. They go in with four or five other kids so they aren't readily identifiable. If an old lady like me can figure that out, you know they will in a heartbeat.

It is an excellent point that the presence of cameras did not prevent the violence at Columbine High School. The result? We all got to watch too late to stop it.

Well, heck, having cameras up on every street corner in every city sounds like a good idea by this logic. Let's put cameras everywhere. That'll stop crime, right? Who's for this?
Yeah, I didn't think so. And as far as high school is concerned, it's already boring, brutal, oppressive and depressing enough without throwing in constant video surveillance to drive home the point that, as far as the authorities are concerned, every teenager is a potential serial killer. And really, why stop there? Let's just put the little suckers in straitjackets - can't misbehave in a straitjacket!

"The man willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither."

There are already cameras on street corners in most large cities. It isn't designed to stop crime, but it certainly does help bring the criminals to justice and get convictions. It's hard to argue that you didn't do it when you're caught on camera commiting the crime.

I'm all for it.

Cephus,
Your are right. It will not prevent things from happening but if you are caught on tape it is there in black and white.
Make them think before they react. You can call it a big brother thing but there has been the Columbine killings. Could it have been prevented? Maybe if there were cameras they could of seen guns brought in.
I don't know if this is the answer to the problem with weapons and drugs but I can't see how it would hurt.

Well like several people have stated there were cameras at Colombine and they did have the cameras at the doors and in the parking lots. But it did not stop it just like in stores, streets and the other places cameras have been put into our society. It wont stop the problems cause look on television on the shows that show people like robbing a store.

Its not a deterrent, rather as a after the fact kind of thinking of since its on tape. Instead of having the cameras they should have more teachers in the halls monitoring between classes and hall monitors during classes. For example, in most stores there are several cameras being watched by one person there is no way one person can monitor for instance minimum 10 monitors at once.

Yes, but I think it could be misused, and since there is that possibility, we cannot go through with it. Let's just say, a camera on a street corner catches Hilary CLinton picking her nose. Let's say someone at the RNC knows a guy who works at monitoring these said camera's. He gets the footage and uses a solid clear as day picture of hilary picking her nose in a smear campaign. HOw wonderful would that be? You see where I am going with this I hope. In the current system there are too many loopholes and falsehoods, the last thing we need is a means for more corruption.

EDIT: It's like saying, you have free will to do whatever you want, but we'll be watchintg. That is a thought I doubt Jefferson, Washington, Adams, or anyone for that matter had in mind, or would want.

--Rob

LOL.......What would Hillary be doing standing on a street corner picking her nose?
She's a pretty smart lady, I think she'll save that task for inside her limo....

I do agree that it is an infringement on our rights, and could easily be misused.


What about the satellites that are floating around in space, watching our every move.....that's a little unsettling too.

I was just trying to make a point. I am sure something like that would happen. I am not happy about the satellites either, but let's not add any more tools to big brothers disposal. There acually should be laws saying that you cannot be taped by government officials on public property. Only in private buildings (stores, offices, banks, etc..) I think that would go a long way to protect our rights. However, the ACLU would probably fight that.

--Rob

You know, it's pretty darn strange that schools can afford to monitor the activities of their students, but they can't get decent books, teachers, computer equipment, etc., BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY!!!

I'd rather have the things on hand that students need in order to receive a good quality education. There are altogether too many cameras--what kind of cost is it to us in the long run if we are supposedly a secure, but undereducated country???

I agree with Paladin Elspeth. Money used to make an advanced security system is ultimately better spent on increasing educational capital.

Also, teenagers, despite popular belief, aren't morons. They realize where the cameras are and where they aren't. Maybe they'll wait for that unsuspecting freshman to come into a bathroom before taking his lunch money. Not only that, but you would have to have cameras filming cameras, otherwise the cameras themselves will get stolen (Irony at it's best).

I've acually seen that happen a few times around here, and I live in a small town.



I find that troubling also. Especially when they are cramming 32 kids to a class, education should always be the most important factor in education.

The reasoning behind it is that people are getting bullied around, and drugs. Because the mistakes of few, the many have to suffer? That is just the sort of dangerous thinking that has lead us to be a nation of fear. Pay the teachers more money to get more teachers to come teach, put more money into education tools, less on big brother tactics and a lot of the current problems will just go away. BTW my sister is a public school teacher, I haven't been out of High School that long so I speak from real experiences, not just theory.

--Rob

I assume what you're talking about here are the cameras in certain traffic lights at major intersections. Although I'm opposed to those, too, I think it's a little different than putting video cameras everywhere to catch people in the act of a hypothetical crime. Traffic cameras are put in one spot, to catch people breaking one law - namely running the light where the cameras is. Video cameras everywhere, on the other hand, would capture a huge variety of activities, mostly not illegal, some morally questionable - do you want to be on record scratching your *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***, or cheating on your wife, or buying porn, or booze?

Then you're all for surrendering your native right to privacy, and you'd willingly offer the government that much more control over your life. Sad.

Folks, it doesn't really make a difference how smart kids are when one has a gun and plans to kill people. I'm all for better schools, but we need to keep our kids safe. A kid's GPA won't matter if he is shot by another.

CP

Then maybe Hillary shouldn't be picking her nose in public. It's no different than if someone took a picture of her doing it. Should we ban cameras in public now? Or if someone saw it and reported it. Let's blind all people in public, they might see something that might embarass someone else.

Cameras are irrefutable evidence in a criminal or civil trial, they serve as proof of a crime having been committed. They might serve as a deterrent to some who consider a crime (although certainly not to all, which is why they are also evidence).

Anyone who is afraid to be caught on camera is pretty darned paranoid IMO.

Countrockula writes:


If you want privacy, do these things in private. No one, acting in a public place, has privacy. That's the definition of PUBLIC! You can no more control being on camera in a public place than you can control who videotapes you in a public place, or even who sees you and reports on your actions.

Paladin Elspeth writes:


Unfortunately, in today's sue-happy world, one lawsuit against the school can cost millions, so monitoring and documenting what happens in the school is essential, both to catch and control crime, and to cover the school's backside in the case of a lawsuit.

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Let me just say, being a student myself, that I strongly disagree with the installation of cameras in schools. Crimes are going to happen, and I don't think that having cameras in schools is going to stop the crimes. Teenagers are very rebellious these days. When they have parents, teachers, peers, and administration personnel interfering with their privacy, it will only infuriate them more. I must say that I agree with Paladin Elspeth. My school has spent millions of dollars to put a new addition onto my school, WITH TALKING GARBAGE CANS. (let me add that those garbage cans were broken the first day of school, and are now replaced with actual garbage CANS!!) To put cameras into a school to use as surveillance would only pose a possibility of wasting more taxpayer funds that could be used for more important factors (new history books, more desks, more books for our library, more funding for clubs and activities that are often forgot about ex: drama club, and thespians) surveillance is not only going to cause infuriation by students, but staff as well. It is an invasion of privacy, and could be used as blackmail. Just because you have to go through a process to become an administrator, doesn't mean that some of them wouldn't do things that wouldn't be expected of them. People are unpredictable. Even the most predictable people are unpredictable. Who's to say that the cameras won't be used against us?

The cameras can't be used against you if you're not doing anything wrong. And if you're doing something wrong, well then it's your own fault. I see nothing bad about cameras in schools. They prevent most sane people from misbehaving, and make me, as a student, feel a little safer. It's for our own protection, not for blackmail. The faculty can't be expected to monitor all 2,000+ students at my school every second they're there, so the cameras help them out.
The cameras can only be used against people who are doing something wrong. And if you're doing something wrong, then you deserve to be punished. I don't understand the problem with this.
Schools are public grounds. Just like malls, post offices, etc. Cameras are there, cameras can be in schools. There is no expectation of privacy at a school! It's not a house, it's a place to learn. I don't do private things and store private materials at school, and I don't know why anyone else would want to either. As long as you are following the rules, you have nothing to worry about.

I'm all for camera's in school, and the bus or anywhere else teachers and employers need more eyes. With the decline in a sense of what is right and wrong and the fact to many parents are not doing their job. We need more help.
Hey if you have nothing to hide whats the problem?

I think setting cameras at classrooms, hallways and playgrounds are justifiable. they r public places anyway; there's no violation to privacy. but i'm a fraid cameras in classrooms may cause teachers and students' unnecessary comprehension and make them uncomfortable and more self-conscious. if you're uncomfortable and highly self-conscious, it's hard to learn anything.

this is just one big stupid argument about privacy and how we have the right as Americans to have privacy from the government. well... that's true, but when you are a student and you go into a school and you use their school to increase your learning, you are submitting your civic rights to the school.

the school can set up cameras if they want, it is their school. the government has nothing to do with this issue.

I agree with cameras in schools. as a student i think it makes me feel safer knowing that if a kid in a class room in the next building over is waving a gun around threatening to kill people, the school security can act before someone gets shot.

Cameras in our schools are for our childrens safety, we need to do all we can to give our children a safe learning environment without going over the line i.e. mandatory strip searches or armed security guards on every corner.

I disagree. The data says cameras in schools decrease crime and not just crime against students but crime against teachers as well. The grim reality is that under the current system it is very hard to get the violent kids expelled and they feel free to beat up on teachers as well as fellow students.

Bring on the cameras! Then maybe we can get these animals out of our classrooms so the vast majority of good kids can get an education.

I think those of you who think cameras can be imbarssing because you might be seen picking your nose or butt is not what the cameras are here for.
It is to protect kids, teachers, and everyone else attending that school.
Do you "Really" think they are going to come to a student or a teacher and say "HEY I saw you pick your nose?"
Please, in today's society kids are unruly disrespective of teachers and parents.
NO they won't stop all the illegal things that go on in school but maybe make them think twice.
You can be seen doing things that are not allowed! Period!

Shades of 1984. The best way to stop crime is to televise a person's movement, right?

Cameras are going to make students more respectful of teachers and parents. Really? It will just make them more careful with their comments.

Cameras are going to stop the bullying of some students by other students. Really? Cameras are going to make the bullies more devious; cameras cannot change a person's basic intent. Cameras cannot make people more virtuous, just give them the feeling that they are distrusted regardless of what internal moral compass they might have developed.

Cameras, without audio, can make innocent actions, like Joanie hastily giving a tampon to Betsy before Betsy disappears into a bathroom, look suspiciously like a drug transaction.

Wouldn't using the cost of video cameras be better served ensuring that students have programs and classes to occupy their time and their minds? Video cameras are, at best, a band-aid when it comes to truly investing in our children.

Paladin we would not need cameras if students behaved. When I was in high school in the late sixties this was not a problem. I can remember sitting is a 11th grade English class with 45 other kids (all our classes were big) and you could hear a pin drop. 70 year old Ms. Sullivan never had to discipline any of us. Sure there were some kids who got out of line but nothing like today especially in our big cities and inner cities. And in those days if we stepped out of line the parents were required to come in and you could bet your parents would NOT be blaming teachers for their kids behavior.

Screw up a few times and you were out. Today the philosophy is keep the kids in the school and even look the other way. So the cameras are needed and no it will not stop all the toughs from their activities but it sure will put a damper on a good deal of it and it will offer recorded proof of serious infractions that will allow schools to get rid of the worst troublemakers.


The money spent on education in this country has doubled twice in the past 2 decades. Parents and students should get what they pay for – a decent education for their kids.

What cameras are going to do is back up the account of the victim being bullied while an ineffective teacher turns a blind eye.

Camera's will also show how ineffective some teachers can be, and be used to replace those teachers.

I believe this is why the teachers unions are so against cameras in the classroom. They may actually be held accountable.

I think cameras in the classroom are an excellent idea also. Not only, as others have mentioned, will it back up or debunk alligations of harassment and bullies, but it will also hold teacher accountable and students too from illegal activities.

I graduated from High School in June of 1964.

There was at least one arrest for prostitution in a locker room while I was in school.

I can remember being the geek who was constantly beat up. I learned some knife defenses effective enough that I could pick up an attacker, weapon in hand, and carry them to the principal's office.

Those students were expelled.

There was the drama teacher who couldn't keep the study hall quiet during his hour to baby sit it, so he used a starter pistol to "shoot" one of his drama students. She was then carried away by an "ambulance crew" from the same class. Most of the witnesses thought he had actually killed her. He was fired.

I can remember one student holding another student by the feet, and dangling him from a third floor window. The teacher scolded him, suggested that he bring the other student back inside before he dropped him, and then laughed about it. (She had spent the previous 30 years teaching kindergarten.)

I remember one student chasing another around a classroom with a hatchet. There was no teacher in the room at the time.

I don't know if any of these events would have been prevented by cameras in the school; but as I recall, I was attending a public school, not a private school. Since when do we "have a right to privacy" in a public place? I have seen cameras in public parks. There are cameras on the roof of the local grocery store monitoring the parking lot. There are cameras in Wal-Mart. I think it is far more realistic to teach our students that they may be on camera when they are in a public place, than to teach them that they can expect a "right to privacy" in a public bldg. I had to get past the questions of a guard and a receptionist tonight, before I could be issued a number to wait my turn to renew my license plate.

So why not have video cameras in the school bathrooms? That's where a lot of mischief goes on, right? And as you said, there is no expectation of privacy in a public building.

Have an "accident" in the bathroom? It's on tape. Stand there bawling your eyes out because your boyfriend/girlfriend just left you? It's on tape. Give birth to a baby? It's on tape.

You see, the video camera argument can be used there, too. Privacy be damned, if you're in a public place. Heck, how many crimes are committed in our neighborhoods? Have the city post video cameras in residential areas. That'll stop crime.

Pretty soon ALL of our activities will be subject to intrusion, ostensibly for our protection. I do not like that slippery slope.

I seem to recall that the Supreme Court actually ruled that there is an expectation of privacy in a bathroom, and therefore cameras are not allowed there; however, since you raised the issue... There was a baby delivered in a local high school bathroom sometime since we moved to Muskegon, and the baby was left in a wastebasket, where it died. I'd be willing to wager this was not a totally unique event, and that there are more babies who have been left to die in high school bathrooms.

If cameras were monitored, would someone be able to save such a baby? Intervene in a beating or a rape?