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America's Debate > Archive > Policy Debate Archive > [A] Constitutional Debate
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phaedrus
Stop vouchers website
QUOTE
The voucher legislation is being considered as an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2004 D.C. budget bill, HR 2765, which authorizes all spending of local ($7.4 billion) and federal dollars ($ 466 million) for the District of Columbia's 570,000 residents. This bill incorporates the voucher plan, HR 2556, of Representative Tom Davis (R- Va-11).  Since February 2003, Rep. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.-6) had sought through his bill, H-R 684 (and S.4, Part B by Senator Judd Gregg), to institute a taxpayer funded private school tuition grants.  HR 684 would award $3,750 to 1600 children at or near the poverty line.  Davis' plan, HR-2556, would reportedly grant up to $7,500 to 2000 children.


While there are a number of reasons the school vouchers are controversial, the point is often raised that it would use tax dollars to support churches. Some of the more liberal critics claim that since most of the money will go to Church schools. Most of the reasons the vouchers are now appealing to law makers is because D.C schools spend $12,000 per student and only 10% of them test at the grade level.

President Bush and his congressional allies are trying to impose a religious tax on all Americans,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “The Senate must reject this misguided crusade.”

School Vouchers and seperation

The reason I see this as a Constitutional issue is because the Supreme Court Holding in Everson v. Board of Education said that:

"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Fedeal Government can set up a church...In the words of Jefferson, the clause against esatblishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of seperation' between church and state." (Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. (1947).

The case was actually over whether or not providing students transportation was in violation of the 1st Amendment. The court found that it was not but the dissent makes an interesting point:

"Much of its reasoning (majority opinion) to support the present legislation. In fact, the undertones of the opinion, advocating complete and uncompromising separation of Church from State, seem utterly discordant with its conclusion yielding support to their commingling in educational matters" (Justice Jackson)

Do school vouchers constitute useing tax dollars to support religion? Or Should the legislatiors focus on the quality of the education students recieve and the bottomline costs?
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Hugo
No, they do not providing the parents choose which school their children attend. With widespread use of school vouchers more secular private school choices would appear on the horizon.
Tigers2B1
Disabled students are allowed federal money to fund assistance that will mainstream them into the main student body. For example - a reader will be provided for a disabled student attending a church supported school if needed ----and it doesn't matter if that student takes a 'religion' course where the reader's services will be used. That has been held as not constituting a government endorsement of religion.

As I understand the voucher issue -- the democrats seem mostly opposed to vouchers because of the pressure they receive from the Teachers Union to take a stand against vouchers. Why? A voucher system would create student school choices - which, ultimately, would create more accountability for failing schools and teachers. In short - they're protecting their butts at the expense of the students IMO. The attempt to entangle vouchers with a separation of religion issue appears to be politics which come from that motivation -

IF - it can be shown that government funds are going for the purpose of supporting a religion and not education - than a case would be made. I simply don't see that case being made here.
phaedrus
The vast majority of the schools that would recieve the money would come from tax payers and go to the churches that administrate these schools. If this is done on a non-profit basis there would be no discernable difference between paying it to the school and droping it in the collection plate. The effect would be about the same and the chances of exclusivly secular schools popping up are about zip.
Hugo
There is nothing in the First Amendment that prohibits school vouchers. Currently secular private schools have a real difficult time competing with government subsidized private schools. Under a voucher system this would not be the case. There are no legitimate 1st Amendment concerns when it comes to school vouchers. The chances of exclusive secular private schools popping up is 100%.
Monty
i agree with Hugo on this one. School Vouchers are given to the family. They spend it as they wish. This could include home schooling. Even if they do use this money to go to a Church private school, it does not mean that the government is supporting a church. I would have to say this has nothing to do with Seperation of Church and State. Anything that splits a strangle hold on a market is a good thing. Imagine being able to take your kid to a speciality school in his choice after elementary school to better prepare him for the future.

School Vouchers are a good thing. The only reason Democrats are not supporting the idea is because of bipartisan politics.

Monty
phaedrus
Supreme Court on School Vouchers

Somehow I dont think that the Supreme Court found this to be so cut and dry the vote was 5-4. I thought I might toss the dissenting remarks from the decision in the interest understanding the legal reasoning involved. Its interesting to note that the vote was identical to the one to stop the vote count in Florida during the 2000 Presidential campaign. In the dissent Justice Stevens has said that we should ignore three factual matters when coming to a conclusion.

1. The present crisis in education.
2. The wide range of choices they would make available.
3. The voluntary nature of the choices.

He says that all we should be looking at is that tax dollars are going to 'indoctrinate' children into religous systems. He claims it will erode the wall of seperation that protects our right to choose our religious indoctrination. So we should ignore the fact that the schools are in crisis, this creates more choices, and it is completly voluntary. Or children our in danger of being indoctrinated into something other then a purly secular education. Stop letting yourself be distracted by those irrelevant facts .

QUOTE
  Justice Stevens, dissenting.

    Is a law that authorizes the use of public funds to pay for the indoctrination of thousands of grammar school children in particular religious faiths a “law respecting an establishment of religion” within the meaning of the First Amendment? In answering that question, I think we should ignore three factual matters that are discussed at length by my colleagues.

    First, the severe educational crisis that confronted the Cleveland City School District when Ohio enacted its voucher program is not a matter that should affect our appraisal of its constitutionality. In the 1999—2000 school year, that program provided relief to less than five percent of the students enrolled in the district’s schools. The solution to the disastrous conditions that prevented over 90 percent of the student body from meeting basic proficiency standards obviously required massive improvements unrelated to the voucher program.1 Of course, the emergency may have given some families a powerful motivation to leave the public school system and accept religious indoctrination that they would otherwise have avoided, but that is not a valid reason for upholding the program.

    Second, the wide range of choices that have been made available to students within the public school system has no bearing on the question whether the State may pay the tuition for students who wish to reject public education entirely and attend private schools that will provide them with a sectarian education. The fact that the vast majority of the voucher recipients who have entirely rejected public education receive religious indoctrination at state expense does, however, support the claim that the law is one “respecting an establishment of religion.” The State may choose to divide up its public schools into a dozen different options and label them magnet schools, community schools, or whatever else it decides to call them, but the State is still required to provide a public education and it is the State’s decision to fund private school education over and above its traditional obligation that is at issue in these cases.2

    Third, the voluntary character of the private choice to prefer a parochial education over an education in the public school system seems to me quite irrelevant to the question whether the government’s choice to pay for religious indoctrination is constitutionally permissible. Today, however, the Court seems to have decided that the mere fact that a family that cannot afford a private education wants its children educated in a parochial school is a sufficient justification for this use of public funds.

    For the reasons stated by Justice Souter and Justice Breyer, I am convinced that the Court’s decision is profoundly misguided. Admittedly, in reaching that conclusion I have been influenced by my understanding of the impact of religious strife on the decisions of our forbears to migrate to this continent, and on the decisions of neighbors in the Balkans, Northern Ireland, and the Middle East to mistrust one another. Whenever we remove a brick from the wall that was designed to separate religion and government, we increase the risk of religious strife and weaken the foundation of our democracy.
    I respectfully dissent.

Dissent by Justice Stevens
Hugo
That was a dissenting opinion.

The 1st Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

What people always ignore is the prohibiting the free exercise thereof. If parents wish to freely exercise their vouchers and send their children to a religious private school. That is their choice. There are tax credits for charitable contributions, which includes contributions to religious institutions. There is little difference between school voucher money spent on a religious education and religious contributions that are tax deductable.
Gray Seal
Using School Vouchers based on the average support of students within a public school is not a good basis to determine funding if those vouchers go to school which do not have public school standards.

Public Schools are based on equal opportunity. However, the cost per student to provide these equal opportunities can vary greatly from one student to the next. The average student is not getting the average funding. A small minority of the students cost well above the average funding per student, hence the average student gets less funding than the average funding.

It would be a natural choice for people to pull their child out of a school district in order to increase the funding to that individual child. School vouchers will not be equitable use of money unless the receiving school is required to provide equal opportunity the same as public school standards.

Religious Schools do not provide equal opportunity. It would be supporting religion to use public school moneys for them. It also will give a disproportionate funding to these schools to use average public student funding as a basis for this support.
quarkhead
Phaedrus:

Though you made it sound like Justice Stevens was saying "ignore the facts and concentrate on indoctrination," he is in fact correct. Like it or not, the Supreme Court is not about solving crises. It is about determining whether an action or a situation is in accordance with the Constitution. He may be right or wrong (and I think he was wrong) in his conclusion about the constitutionality in this case, but his reasoning about ignoring the crisis is solid jurisprudence.

If there is a crisis of unemployment, for example, and Minnesota decides to solve it by seizing the bank accounts of the 500 richest Minnesotans, in order to redistribute that wealth to everyone else, upon review the Supreme Court should rightly ignore the facts of the crisis itself. Their role is to judge whther or not such an action was constitutional.

As for vouchers:

I'm in agreement with Matthew Miller in The Two Percent Solution (which is a very interesting read, by the way). We need a much larger test of school vouchers. We need to address school financing inequities (the old property tax problem) as well as offer universal vouchers. Miller suggests picking 3 or 4 large cities. Raise per-pupil spending by 20 to 30 percent - yet implement this increase solely via a universal voucher. "In a city that now spends $6000 per pupil, for example, every child would get, say, a $7500 voucher." He goes on:

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Depending on the cities, the federal government could fund this boost for $1 to $2 billion per year. The feds would guarantee to bankroll it for ten or fifteen years, to give entrepreneurs (both non-profit and for-profit) the incentive to make investments in new schools, and thus get a true test of competition's impact. Following Jack Coons' advice, we'd also toss in sensible regulations, such as one requiring that any school that wants to take the voucher has to reserve a certain portion of seats (say, 15 percent) for which the voucher would suffice as full tuition, so it's not simply a way for schools to jack up prices or shun poorer kids.


Miller floated this idea by a number of people.

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How did such a "grand bargain" play? Jack Coons, the "egalitarian," said it sounded great. So did Clint Bolick, the conservative Republican, though he thought the spending increase would mean "some of my fellow conservatives would have apoplexy." Senator Lamar Alexander of Tennessee, who served as secretary of education in George H. W. Bush's cabinet, signed on. So did Rod Paige, education secretary in the current Bush administration. Polly Williams, who led the drive to enact vouchers in Milwaukee, was hesitant about extending vouchers to families who weren't poor, so we posited a fix: Give them only to kids eligible for the federal school lunch program. We would move pretty far toward universal coverage this way, since, sadly, two out of three urban children qualify for school lunch assistance.


Miller gets William Bennett and the NAACP to sign on to the idea. Milton Friedman at first said "it's a bad idea," due to the idea of increasing spending, but ended up endorsing it with a stipulation: he has
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always believed that so many families would flee public schools if given a voucher worth even half of today's per-pupil spending that resources for each child remaining in the current system would rise. (If ten public school children have $5000 spent on each of them, and three leave taking $2500 each, spending on the seven remaining would rise about 20 percent, to just under $6100.) So Friedman said he would approve of a 20 percent increase in per-pupil spending for those who remained, so long as the voucher was worth only half that. Since Friedman thinks this increase will come over time anyway, he's not compromising his ideals.
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phaedrus
My point was and is that if you remove the material fact of the emergency in the public schools, the expansion of personal choice for the parents, and the overall decrease of the finacial burdon on tax payers. There is nothing left to base a decision on. Seperation of church and state isnt an issue of religous conviction or even the direction of ministry based on religious conviction. Unless the nature of the activity has as its central focus their shared religious beliefs. Religion itself is a matter of conscience and that is what has to be ignored in the legal reasoning according to the 1st Amendment. I dont think the dissent had it wrong, I think it was upside down and backwards.
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