Your timing is excellent Belladonna because I just got back from the public library and one of the books I picked up was one from 1999 called Race Manners: Navigating the Minefield Between Black and White Americans by Bruce A. Jacobs. I'll share a little with you. Maybe you'll get it and maybe you won't, but at least I'll have tried:

The answer is that if we all waited until we knew we were right before opening our mouths, allowing ourselves zero risk of misunderstanding or overstatement, then nothing worthwhile would ever get said. It's just not that easy. Change requires risk. There are risks to be made, conversational licks to be taken. What has so many well-intentioned white and black people either stammering or seething is the half-witted notion that we cannot afford to be racially in error, cannot afford to be corrected, cannot abide conflict or argument and still substain a racial dialogue.

So once conversation has been sufficiently stifled---as it has today, both by resentful eye-rolling and outright public bluster---there is really only one way through: engagement. You have to risk being taken for a judgmental white racist or an apologist for black dysfunction. Maybe that's what you are. Maybe you deserve to have it flung back in your face. Perhaps you need a good rocking and rolling, a healthy little bang of criticism. Or maybe, on the other hand, the other party should not be spared what you hold clenched in your fist. Perhaps somebody needs to be called out. And perhaps, when all is said and done, everyone survives.

Did I have to call out Rush Limbaugh as a rich white man? Yeah, I think so. He's a big boy and he's got broad shoulders, so I figure he can take it. If he can't then he needs to change his line of work because he's in the wrong business. Rush has become popular, admired and very, very wealthy by saying exactly what he thinks about Bill Clinton, gays, feminists, poor people, racial groups and liberals.

Well, I try to give as good as I get. Limbaugh injected race into a subject where it didn't apply. You can sugar coat it any way you like and Amlord quoting Michael Irvin, the "black ex-Dallas WR and currently black commentator on ESPN" cuts no ice with me. I didn't care when Al Sharpton dissed Limbaugh and I care even less about Irvin's opinion on the matter.

By the way Amlord, is "currently black commentator" a job title or what? Are there times when Irvin isn't a "black commentator?" Does he get a few days off through the week where he can just be a commentator like everyone else in the employ of ESPN?

As I said earlier, I don't know if Rush Limbaugh is a racist. I do think he has said things in the past that can be interpreted as racist. However, racism isn't always as clear and unequivocal as a Ku Klux Klansman burning a cross on your lawn. Sometimes racism is quiet, subtle and wears an expensive suit and has impeccable table manners.

Donovan McNabb may be overpaid. He may be overrated. He may be having a crappy season thus far. But he's the best player on the Philadelphia Eagles and if the owner didn't think so he wouldn't have made him the highest paid player on the team and in the NFL.

Well, Rush Limbaugh is probably the highest paid man in radio and I'm sure his detractors think he's wildly overrated too. Apparently, his employers think differently. Maybe Rush and Donovan should hang out someday. They might find they have a lot more in common than is immediately evident.

You can use the word "black" any way you want Belladonna. But if you use it to degrade and demean an entire group because you got drama with one or two of them, then you're making a sweeping generalization and that's wrong.

All white conservatives don't agree with Rush Limbaugh. Every black football fan isn't down with Donovan McNabb.

Iif I say, "All the white conservatives on America's Debate are racist rednecks," there is a CHANCE that I COULD be right, but there's a greater probability that I'm DEAD WRONG. I am sure I'd be swiftly disabused of that notion.

Rush Limbaugh COULD be right that based on his performance in the NFL so far, Donovan McNabb is overrated.

But I think he's DEAD WRONG and I don't have any reluctance in saying so.

Is McNabb overrated?

Throw the question back to you: Is Limbaugh overrated?

I'm sort of torn on the subject myself.

On one hand, I didn't think it was an appropriate comment for a sports commentor to make.

On the other hand, this was only an issue because of who he is. If Terry Bradshaw had made the same statement, they would have debated it on the air and that would have been the end of it.

Sports writers and other sports media have used race as a factor since the existence of sports. I can't even count the number of times I've seen/read, "somebody's name, the second insert race here player to have ever insert accomplishment here" Why does that matter other than to hype someone's ability according to their race? In fact, when I read that, what it implies to me is "He's a really great player......for a black guy". I don't have to be black to find that insulting.

So, who's the bigger racist here? These sports writers/media that say Yao Ming is a great basketball player.....for an asian guy, OR Rush Limbaugh who points these things out?

If such a comment did not have an associated taboo with it, i doubt most sports folks would shun the matter.

I not only see it as silly what rush said, but wrong. I mean just think for a second, we are associating the fact a football player makes such a large salary because the person happens to be black. Be it a product of the modern day racial tension in America or not, i have serious doubts that McNabb has that contract on the base of his skin color. First of all the coach is white and so is that teams management, if this was such a common thing why would they go through with it? do you think individuals got to where they are in life by making bad decisions with money all of the time, we are talking not only the millions that McNabb receives, but fan attendance and so on.

This is just fireworks as it usually is with most things related, such as cnns crossfire show. Not much anything is said except for statements that are sure to draw a crowd.

NO, he's stating his opinion, funny how liberals jumped all over Rush about this, wonder why, they're so afraid of him? The man speaks his mind, and the PR police are off.

CP

One thing is clear, the comments were divisive. Talk radio caters to a niche market, the NFL is not a niche market, they cater to everyone. You cannot afford a commentator who will anger a segment of your listening audience. I think talk radio is Rush's medium. Of course he could claim his comments were the result of a drug addiction and that he should be protected under the ADA, I don't see that happening.

Just glossing over the last few comments people keep mentioning McNabb's football numbers and it really irks me because I can tell a lot of people know nothing about football.

To try and prove a point about someones career over 4 weeks (for McNabb it would be 3 since he had a bye) shows the depth of peoples football knowledge...But if we were the two highest rated quarterbacks at this point in the season are black (McNair,Culpepper). The reason he is one of the elite quaterbacks in the league stems from the fact that he is on one of the worst offensive teams in the NFL (comparing personal across the board) but still puts up points. What I love about statistics is that you can skew them to prove almost any point. So I will lay out a few stats in Donovan's favor.

*17-6 TD to int. ratio over a 10 game span last year (broke his ankle in 2002)
(71-41 in 57 games lifetime)
*71% of the teams total offense in games played
*2000 and 2001 probowl selection (voted by peers and coaches)
*2000 MVP runner-up, 2000 player of the year by CBS Sports

Just a little hard evidence to why he is not overrated but that is a question you can debate forever.

The most over-rated, over-hyped thing going on is Rush himself. I don't care what bloody colour he is.

I hate Rush Limbaugh. I don't think his comments were racist, however. Analyze what he said.

The media definitely has hyped McNabb as a great QB, and has always used his race. He has done interview after interview that talked about being a young black quarterback. This is fact.

Is McNabb as good as the media plays him up? That is definitely debatable, and is therefore opinion. Limbaugh has a right to voice his opinion, that was his job in fact.

The outrage over this is a knee jerk reaction, and anyone with a lick of sense would recognize that.

First, I'd like to say that I fully support Limbaugh's right to say whatever he wants.

Now that we got that out of the way, I'd also like to say that he should have gotten fired. When your on a TV shows and black men are a primary group your advertising to, it's always a good idea not to step on any black persons shoes. Thus, when your a TV commentator, you don't say ANYTHING that could possibly get you in trouble with the public.

ESPN noticed that Rushs comments enraged the public, and because they are smart and want to keep their audience, they dropped him. That all seems pretty simple to me.




Thus, I basically feel that Limbuagh was not denied his free speech. However, ESPN was not denied their right to fire someone who was turning away audiences.

Not disingenuous at all when you consider that McNabb's agent suggested that the quarterback wasn't getting what he wanted from the Eagles franchise because he was black. You see, if Mcnabb can use race to get a better salary, I can certainly use it to say he isn’t worth said salary. To suggest otherwise is hypocrisy.



Since I am the only one who gave stats recently, I can only assume you are referring to me. If it wasn't me that you were referring to, I'm sure you'll do the courtesy of being more specific next time. The stats came from ESPN so, if you have a problem with the said stats, take it up with ESPN. You weren't suggesting that I know nothing about football because I am a "woman" now were you? That would just be - politically incorrect.

McNabb’s stats aren’t the real issue on this thread anyway, are they? The real issue is that a conservative spoke his opinion about the media’s take on a black quarterback. Ironically, the media’s rush to judgment has proven that Rush is right when he talks about how political correctness does infect our culture and limits our First Amendment right to speak out on important, but sensitive matters, like race. The goal is to silence the voice of those who have an opinion that differs from the opinion the PC police have approved. THAT is the context of the free speech argument. Use race when it fits the "fighting the man" agenda - call white people who offer a differing opinion racists and black people who offer a differing opinion Uncle Tom.

So the McNabb position -- and that of all the liberals gang-tackling Limbaugh -- is that race should never be a topic in football conversation unless you are alleging that the NFL is run by racists conspiring at every turn against black athletes because they are black, black, black. Otherwise, all should be race-neutrality and colorblindness.

There once was a shortage of black quarterbacks in the NFL because of racist stereotypes about their abilities. But those days are gone. Limbaugh's point is that liberal-leaning writers can't give up on the idea that black quarterbacks must be embattled and therefore due special regard because of their race. Look no further than a January 2002 piece from the liberal Salon.com headlined, "Black QBs -- Again: With McNabb and [Kordell] Stewart leading their teams into the conference championships, will athletic quarterbacks outduel their white counterparts?" Or this headline from a 2001 Salon piece: "Young, Gifted and Under Center: The current bumper crop of black quarterbacks leading their teams to the playoffs doesn't mean racism is dead in the NFL."

You can argue with Limbaugh's opinion that Donovan McNabb — currently ranked near the bottom of NFL QBs — has been overrated and that journalists rooting for him accounts for it. But that race matters in the NFL and in the media coverage of it is indisputable. Instead of shutting up conservatives who notice this, maybe all of Limbaugh's critics should resolve to rollback the NFL coach-hiring policy and never mention race again in connection with a sport that should be all about merit. That should come as a blessed relief to everyone from Donovan McNabb to Rush Limbaugh.

From The National Review

What? That sounds pretty contradictory. He has a right to say it, but he should be fired for saying it, thus taking that right away? He is a political commentator, and ESPN knew that when they hired him.

And for the record, he was not fired, he resigned.

Can you cite a source for your assertion that his agent used McNabb's race to get him a better contract? I looked, and I can't find one. Additionally, McNabb was already the highest paid player on the Eagles, before he renegotiated. Doesn't seem like his race had a part in that. Gee, could it be that it was his performance as a college player, and the fact that he was the number 2 ranked pick in the draft that year?



I still fail to see how this has anything to do with the First Amendment. Rush was not silenced by the government in any way. He was hit with a backlash by people who, right or wrong, perceived his comments as racially divisive.

As far as silencing someone who's opinion differs from "what the PC police have approved", this goes on by both sides of the political spectrum. Conservatives are no more victims of this, than they are instigators. One only needs to listen to any conservative talk show, on radio or TV, to hear it in action. As I said earlier, both sides need to deal with the fact that perceived non-PC statements are going to receive flack. The fact that you have the right to say something stupid, doesn't mean that I don't have the right to call you on it. Or boycott whatever program you have, or movie you make, or CD you produce.

There's no hypocriscy in asking for you to provide some link, quote or proof that McNabb's agent made such a remark, is it Belladonna?

Rush wasn't right. Rush interjected his dumb view about black quarterbacks and the media's political agendas on a show where most viewers care more about the starting cornerback's ankle sprain than his stupid conspiracy theories. What you don't get Belladonna is the democgraphic for ESPN NFL Countdown are guys and most guys don't want politics mixed with their football.

It's really that simple.

Hey, I liked your Natonal Review article. How about a link back to it because I sure doubt a brother wrote it.

Here's one by Derrick Z. Jackson. He is a brother and knows just a bit more about football than whomever wrote your National Review excerpt:

The resulting protest carried Limbaugh right out of ESPN's booth. He can now go back to fanning ignorance and hate on his own radio talk show. Political pages are not normally the place to get into sports statistics, but even the most rudimentary rundown renders Limbaugh either paranoid, crazy, or both.

McNabb led the Eagles to within one game of the Super Bowl in each of the last two seasons. In 2000, he finished second in the league's Most Valuable Player voting by the Associated Press. He has been to the postseason Pro Bowl for the league's all-stars three times. In one game last season, McNabb broke his ankle on the third play. Thinking it was only a sprain, he completed 20 of 25 passes for 255 yards and four touchdowns before sitting out for six weeks.

Even a slavemaster would have been impressed with the content of McNabb's character. Not so on the Limbaugh plantation. Even though McNabb holds the NFL's third-best winning percentage among active starting quarterbacks, all Limbaugh can see is the color of the quarterback's skin. All Limbaugh can see is a mediocre black man. Limbaugh could not resist using the whip.

That is no surprise, given that Limbaugh has dropped such gems on the American public as once telling a black listener to take a bone out of his nose and declaring that a Mexican won the New York Marathon because an immigration agent chased him for the last 10 miles. The surprise all along was that ESPN, which is owned by Disney, was so willing to throw a race card into a realm of American culture that has achieved a peculiar universal popularity.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial...rom_the_get_go/

I never said anyone didn't know anything about football. I always have questioned football analysis from people who have never played the game (i.e. women and sports writers that never played football) but that is a different topic all together. My only point about stats is that they can be used/misused. For example, Amlord said that Brad Johnson was a better QB than McNabb because he had a higher QB rating in 2002. Johnson had an exceptional year in 2002 but Gruden's system and very good receivers helped him out a lot. Gruden's system is based off of short crossing routes that leads to high completion, low interception, and short gains. This results in a high QB rating. Johnson is very much a "system" quarterback and if you compare his stats to McNabb since 2000 it is not even a close comparison. You can also throw in that Johnson is a moving target since he is so slow. But, I am off on a tangent when the real question is still the medias view of black QBs.

NiteGuy and nighttimer, I actually heard it on a television program last night so I can’t provide a link to the conversation, however I did find links to other articles.



The same agent used the same tactic in contract negotiations with Akili Smith and the Bengals.



The same assertion about McNabb’s agent is made in the link to the entire National Review article below:

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200310030952.asp

nighttimer said:


By “a brother” I assumed you meant a Black man as that is “usually” how the term is used but just to be sure I Googled Mr. Jackson to see for myself. Why would the color of Derrick Z. Jackson’s skin make him more knowledgeable of football? Was he a football player? And why should HIS opinion be taken more seriously than the opinion of the writer of the National Review op-ed?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

kdubdub,

Thanks for clarifying.

Okay, I read the article, and Fletcher Smith did pull the race card. I think he was as wrong to do that as was Rush to use it when he said that the liberal media was pushing McNabb on the public because he was black.

But let's go back to your original quote concerning this:

The problem with what you said (in bold) is that McNabb was using race to further his salary. In fact he wasn't, and when he found out what Smith said, did everything he could to disabuse the press of the notion it was his idea. From your own story:

Also, as I said, the charge hardly fit the facts:

So, yes, Smith was wrong to do this. Now, you may still argue that McNabb is over rated, but do you really want to contend that he was overpaid simply because he is black? By the way, this may have been the first time the buyback clause was altered, but it's being done the Eagle's way pretty much across the NFL now, because other teams saw they were right. It takes longer to get a rookie QB up and running, and the way the deals were structured, was hurting both the player and the team.

Also, while I thank you for the links and the chance to respond to them, you failed to respond to my reply of what you said was the real issue:

Again, who stopped Rush from speaking? No one. Why is it permissable for conservative voices to call for firing say, liberal actors from jobs, and in boycotting their sponsors or shows, but it is not acceptable for liberal voices to call for the same things, when a conservative says something perceived as non-PC? Do you not find this at all hypocritical?

Agents will use any tactic that they can to get more money and it seems that Smith's tactic (McNabb's agent) is to throw the race card out. Also, Akili Smith was a #3 pick and Tim Couch a #1 pick. Not just a big difference but huge difference.

Also, when writers use the "well, McNabb is ranked at the bottom of the league this year" stat to prove he is over-rated, it is stupid. For the umpteenth time, he has only played in 3 games because of a bye week and the season has just started .

NiteGuy,

I concede the point that McNabb himself didn't use the race card. I should have said, "if McNabb's AGENT can use the race card"...

NiteGuy said:


I couldn't say NiteGuy. I don't know what affect his agent's accusations had on the final contract. All I can give is his stats and they show that as the highest paid QB he is not the best QB. That doesn't mean he isn't good, great even - just not the best.

NiteGuy said:


I don't think you are getting my point on this issue and maybe I didn't make it clear so I'll try again. Rush can get on his radio program and say it all over again. People from both sides of the aisle can call for boycotts and stop listening to his shows and THAT is completely acceptable. You make comments that are controversial, you may have to pay for it.

It's that political leaders (or those desiring to be political leaders) called for him to be fired from his job on ESPN. Two people who want to be our President, voiced a desire to see this man silenced. They wanted him to be punished for voicing an opinion in opposition to theirs. THAT is wrong NiteGuy. That is an impedment of the First Amendment.

Nobody's arguing that Limbaugh's rights were trampled except for him. He is not a victim here, but neither is McNabb, the Eagles, or anyone else. He was not fired, he quit. The government is not fining him. He is a commentator, and he said what he thought. He has that right, just like anybody else. Of course there was going to be backlash, there always is when a minority is spoken of in a negative light. Does anybody remember when Brent Barry won the slam dunk contest in the NBA? The media made a huge deal out of a white guy winning, but there was no backlash that those were racist sentiments. How does this differ? I think everyone needs to just calm down and remember that it is better to know where people stand and let them voice it in the open rather than have them lurking in the background pretending to love everyone and working a secret agenda. I hate Rush Limbaugh and think he is an idiot. But at least I don't ever have to worry about what his intentions are.

No it's not. They did not use government to stop him, they only voiced their opinion. Just because they are politicians does not mean they lose their right to free speech.