Well, French missles, used in missle launchers were found in an Iraqi weapons cache. Question for debate, do we losen our ties any more from the French because of their obvious support of the Hussein [R.I.P] regeme?

CP

And the U.S. built Saddam's bunker system back in the 80's, does that mean we loosen our ties with the U.S?

CP, can you post a link to that story?

Yes, we did, however we aren't trying to cover our butts by not getting involved in Iraq as our amis the French are.

CP

Do you have a source for us, Pat?

Didn't Germany build some of those too?

One liners are fine, but it ignores the important point Pheeler is making. Anyways, here is an OLD link, since Conservpat doesn't feel like sharing. (I'll discuss why after a few excerpts.)

Pentagon Joins French Boycott

This article is actually from a few weeks after the original story ALL THE WAY BACK IN EARLY APRIL. Some excerpts for your amusement.



Roland 2 Missles are dated back to the mid-80's and are used throughout NATO. Even if they were acquired before U.N. sanctions came into effect, and even if they were acquired after the Gulf War, it would have been easy to obtain them from other sources than the manufacturer which would have no incentive to sell obsolete equipment to such an unpopular client.



Here's where Conservpat could perhaps hang his argument. However, the article immediately says:



Now "Industry Insiders" aren't always the best of sources, the fact that the extremely anti-French article even prints it, and that nothing has become of the story in the ten months... Yes, TEN MONTHS since it broke would seem to make it pretty clear that the French government has little involvement in Iraq posessing ONE SINGLE MISSLE SYSTEM.

Although no link has been given, and UJ seems to have virtually dismissed the charges with his links....we are not able to throw stones on this one. There are a lot of countries, which our own allies would potentially war with, who have our weapons.

One small example is Pakistan. We stopped selling to them after the 1998 nuclear *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** match with India, but they have F16s and more. I won't even delve into an internet perusal of all the potentially deadly weapons we've sold through the years to other countries, I'm sure they are abundant.

Yes, French-made Roland missiles were found in Iraq before this recent round of weapons findings. The NEWSMAX article that UJ posted was printed back in April and those Roland missiles were found in Iraq by the Australians. Roland missiles were found also at Baghdad airport.

This new round of Roland weapons were found in Iraq recently by the Polish in Hillah. These are separate findings.


Polish troops discover four French missiles in Iraq
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/index.cfm?id=1099272003

Eugeniusz Mleczak, a spokesman for the Polish defence ministry, said the missiles were discovered on 29 September and made safe.

"It is not the first time Polish troops found ammunition in Iraq but, to our surprise, these missiles were produced in 2003," he added.

[The discovery of the missiles by Polish troops raises fresh questions about the role of France in arming Saddam, as well as reviving memories of the French sale of Exocet missiles to Argentina before the Falklands war.

France has long had a close relationship with Iraq, selling the country an estimated £3 billion worth of weapons, including Exocets and Mirage fighters during the Iran war.]


As to pheeler's comment about the US arms to Iraq in the '80's. Yes, that is true, yet after the 1st Gulf War the UN banned importing of weapons to Iraq. The US and Iraq were still in conflict since the end of the 1st war up until the ousting of Saddam so the US would not be suppling anything to Iraq in the way of weapons.

apparently, by the looks of these multiple findings, our "Allies" may have had other plans.

and for the record, the French denies it...again. To be continued, I suppose.


edit for additional links:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/03/iraq031003
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...4-2003Oct3.html

Interesting. Thanks for the link, SoCliente. If the French did sell weapons to Iraq recently, violating the UN Resolutions which they themselves endorsed, they do indeed have some 'splaining to do.

I don't believe for a second that the french sold it. It is way to easy to get what you want for arms in this world. Hell, look at the way we have to keep tracking down possilbe sales of nukes. It is very easy to get your hands on things like stingers and such with a millionares money, much less billionares, even easier when you run the country. IMO- it is just more right wing propaganda once again.

Lets make this debate simple. Does ANYONE have ANY evidence that France or French companies sold the weapons to Iraq? Obviously the coalition doesn't because they haven't called France to task on the issue.

How can French missiles get on the arms black market? French security is not that slack as in the fomer bloc states.

France opposed the war and probably wanted to see America get a taste of hell so they sold Iraq the missiles

I'm reserving judgement on this little episode as all the facts aren't in as of yet. does it look suspicious? actually, it does. But, I can wait as it happened just a day or so ago.

CR, you seem very quick to assume that america and it's right-wing, is behind this. why's that?
and why couldn't you believe that french may have supplied Iraq during the 12 years of UN sanctions, with weaponry? could you believe it more if they were american made missiles? I bet you could.

and please show us, if you can, how "easy" it is to get French-made missiles on the black market. Now if it were Russia I would say yah, I could see it. The russian mafia has a huge presence in that country and is capable of securing a russian submarine for the highest bidder. The reason for the enormous presence of the mafia in russia is due to their horrible economic conditions as well as overall corruption in govt. Are you willing to say that France is just as broke? just as corrupt? just asking...

CR, you have a tendency to throw some truly outragious claims out into the field. I have to wonder if they are based on a purely emotional basis or if there is any true objectivity there at all

The United States is the biggest arms trading nation in the history of the world. It's interesting that some would claim the moral high ground for the US when our munitions, helicopters, and other arms have been used to massacre over 20,000 Kurds (by the Turks) and over 100,000 East Timorese (Indonesia) - among other uses.

THIS thread is about French Missiles being found in IRAQ....and not the US and NOT east timor or anywhere else. I'll at least try to stay on topic.

Is it ever possible to question the activities of another country. Is the US the ONLY country on the planet worthy of suspicion? unreal.

The way some of these topics twist and turn, I have to wonder.

Oh, come ON! You aren't seriously suggesting that the Frnech government sold these missiles to Iraq in a fit of pique after they didn't get their way at the UN Security Council, are you?

If you are, name your sources. If not, please reign in your desire to sling mud.

I would have to agree that France selling missiles is awfully strange, especially if they were made in 2003 as has been claimed. Since the build up to the war started last year, Im sure that the French would realise the inevitability of war and the 99.9% chance that Iraq would collapse under allied pressure. To do so would be madness.

America is not the only nation that should be ridiculed for deliberate selling of weapons, but I just find this case a bit extreme. If it is true and there really is sufficient evidence, then there is no doubt in my mind that the American government will be all over it. While Britain and Germany are trying to coax France and America to be friends again, Im sure either nation would be dying to find an excuse to fall out on a more permenent basis.

So my judgement will be based on the reaction (if any). If Bush jumps on it and takes lots of evidence to the UN crying 'cheats! cheats! expel them principal Annan!' then I'll start to worry that its true. If no such case is made, then I'll have to assume this story has no weight to it.

It's pretty sad how excited people are when they think they can blame France for something....no matter how little sense it makes.
Yahoo

This makes no sense, if the french had really armed the Iraqi's they wouldn't have sold 20 missiles and a couple guidance systems. The Roland is a relatively cheap system, and the numbers involved aren't going to keep any french factories open. Also if there were wide spread sales we would have lost jets. The Roland 3 is more survivable vs ARM missiles (anti-radiation missiles, such as the US HARM and the British ALARM) than previous versions. We definitely would have nailed them, but we didn't lose a single plane. The Roland is design for low to medium altitude interdiction, plus it has an infra-red/optical sighting mechanism that can lock on to a target then use the radar for only the firing stage. If they were present in any numbers we would have seen some losses.

Its possible Euromissle was sending out feelers on its own. Plenty of US defense contractors have been caught doing that with unsavory regimes over the years. Or the missiles really could have been stolen. But what could the French possibly gain from sending Saddam what looks like a test batch "try before you buy" amount of munitions.

Then again who knows, the French could really be that stupid.

I don't think we can deduce that the weaponry wasn't there because they weren't successful at shooting down our planes. However, all of this is much too inconclusive to even speculate. There could be several avenues from which the missiles arrived in Iraq, the most likely an international (covert) arms dealer. I wouldn't be surprised if they found 20 (or more) of our missiles as well.

Of course, if weapons could be smuggled in, they might also be smuggled out, leading to some not-very-wonderful possibilities.

Once again, false news.

The Polish discovery was a fluke. It's not the first time I hear about French missiles found in Iraq - the last time was earlier this year if I remember correctly.

It's quite a surprise to hear about the same missiles again, only a few days before a new resolution is to be presented by the American delegation to the Security Council.

My personal opinion tells me (and it's only personal, not proven) that the big mediatic wave about the French missiles was set to destabilize the coalition of the 'Unwilling' (France, Russia, Germany and China).

Another attempt which resulted in another failure.

Now, bear in mind that the mafias are dealing weaponry that they could have bought from African countries, or Albania, or former Yugoslavia. Anything is possible at this point, since the borders have become a free passage for terrorists. Maybe Syria or another country in the Gulf (Saudi Arabia?) are helping the Iraqi terrorists/resistants in their battle, with stocks of weapons they could have bought from us.

So in the future, before you think the French are stupid, try and remember what our world is made of first.