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America's Debate > Archive > Assorted Issues Archive > [A] International Debate
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Sleeper
Please state why you chose either of the two.

While I am inclined to chose neither, as I believe they are both being foolish. I lean toward Israel because of the way Palestinian terrorists continue targeting innocent people(children, elderly).
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Robin_Scotland
Taking sides unsure.gif Dangerous business!

I voted neither, because I do not know everything and from my point of view they (they being the ones who are actually destroying the peace, Israeli Army and Palestinian terrorists) are just as bad as each other. I understand people could be pushed into terrorism. I understand people would want to fight back against terrorism. Although I do not for a second condone terrorist activity, I would expect the Israeli government to act with a little bit of maturity, yesterdays outburst in Syria was incredibly counter productive.

I choose to be on the side of the innocent Israelis/Palestinians who want an end to the conflict. Lock the rest of them up smile.gif
nileriver
I also picked neither, while i don’t agree with the tactics used by Palestine, i don’t see them with an army either that can fight the "regular" type of combat. I also see both as harboring terrorists to the peace process. I also think both groups are being kind of religious wackos to tell the truth, and if i was in power at the time, i would have made Texas Israel to see how it would turn out, at least there would be no problem like this in the middle east most likely.

Gods chosen holy people in the holy land that was prophesized to them + holy people of Allah in jihad against the unholy infidels on the holy ground = holy hand grenades.
campbejm
I vote neither. The only way this problem will be solved in if the U.S. (and the rest of the world) takes the position of a mediator. It must be clear that the U.S. will protect Isreal from other hostile nations, but also that the U.S. is not out to hurt Palestinians.

That being said, the terrorists Hamas must stop committing crimes. Make no mistake, they are not freedom fighters. They are terrorists. The Israeli Army is not a terrorist organization. While they should not attack without cause, they should be allowed to protect their population even if that involves bombing Hamas in Syria or a nuke plant in Iraq or taking the Golan from Syria or a whole-air force raid of Egypt.

This conflict (which has been raging in its modern form for 50 years, but in other permutations for thousands of years) is the key to world peace.


Edited to include:

Quoting NileRiver:
QUOTE
Texas Israel


We Texans would have fought harder to keep our land. We took it once, we could do it again. Did you know that there are more tanks in TX than in almost every other nation's army. (I think China and Russia each have more than are in TX).
Dontreadonme
I voted for Israel and I'm not ashamed to say it. Being the only semi-democratic government in the region, it sticks like a thorn in the sides of the autocratic dictatorships where it should serve as a model.
I don't fall in lockstep with every Israeli policy (i.e. settlements) but Israeli's enjoy greater civil rights and freedoms than their neighbors.
I agree that there should exist a palestinian state, but I don't buy for a moment that people could be force into terrorism with no other options. Suicide bombers are nothing more than sub human monsters who enjoy no sympathy from me whatsoever. It's unfortunate that many palestinians probably want to coexist peacefully alongside Israel, but that will be a dream unrealized as long as children are taught to strap explosives to their chest.
SoCaliente_1
I too voted for Israel.

Not one country in that region has EVER believed in Israel's right to exist. That "existance"...the brainchild of the Brits (who later abandoned the entire region), then made possible through the UN was fought tooth and nail since that day in 1948.

I share Dontreadonme's sentiments in that not ALL of Israel's steps have been the right steps. Imo, the occupied territories were won through battles BROUGHT on Israel by surrounding aggressors. To the victor goes the spoils - isn't that the way it goes? However, in the name of peace, settlements being built in these areas could stop, IF Arafat and his band of terrorists would stop killing jews.

The restaurant in haifa that was bombed was co-owned. Arab Christian and Israeli Jew. Arabs can live in peace with others. this is evident. Can Muslims?
Cyan
I voted neither, because while I think that both sides have some legitimate claims, they have both used inappropriate tactics to achieve their goals. I support the idea of both an Israeli and a Palestinian state, and I can only hope that they will learn to live together peacefully, but honestly, I have little hope for that at the moment.
Eeyore
I vote neither. I think that constant use of aggression continues a cycle. There are wrongs committed by both sides. Those piles of wrong are not equal, but I think it is evident that there will not be the development of civil nationalism for the region anytime soon to unite jews and arabs. Because of this two nations need to be created in peace and held accountable for the actions of their citizens after that.
unabomber
I picked neither, but support the palestians more so then the israelis. I would have selected palstinians, but do not agree with their choice of targets. any look at a maps over the last 60 years shows who is the aggressor. I do not and cannot support israel's government. I think that there should be either two states, or one state where everyone is fully equal. I understand the israelis have a right to exist but so do the palestinians.
SuzySteamboat
I voted Palestine. I don't care what some two thousand year old book says, I see the situation very simply. Israel moves in, kicks Palestinians out, expects them to sit there and take it. The Israelis took the Palestinians' land, and that's that. Not to expect this kind of backlash is pure foolishness. I don't think they should have to live side by side, I don't see the Israelis as having any sort of legitimate claim to the land. I think they should get out of there and give it back to the Palestinians.
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Paladin Elspeth
QUOTE
I voted neither, because while I think that both sides have some legitimate claims, they have both used inappropriate tactics to achieve their goals. I support the idea of both an Israeli and a Palestinian state, and I can only hope that they will learn to live together peacefully, but honestly, I have little hope for that at the moment.


I voted neither, and my reasons have already been expressed by Cyan very well.

They've got to learn to respect each other's right to exist and right to have land.
The Israelis keep taking more land, knowing full well that it will incite more Palestinian animosity and violence. The Palestinians continue to sabotage the peace process with their terrorism.

Until they're tired of killing each other, there will be violence.
TennesseeLeftWinger
I always hated to be a fence-sitter so I picked one. I picked Palestine. I don't necessarily agree with the fact that they allow terrorist groups to exist in their territory, but I do think that they have more right to that land than Israel. I think the two should come to an agreement (easier said that done, no?) over the territories. I personally don't think that Israel has any inherent right to that land. The Holocaust was one of the most terrible events to ever happen. The survivors should have been given something but I do not think that giving a sovereign nation to the survivors (especially when it is under the control of another sovereign nation) is the right course of action. I think that the Israelis should realize that they are on someone else's land, uninvited at that, and should make some effort to demolish the settlements and give Palestine some of its own land back. The Palestinians have a greater claim to that land than the Israelis and the Israelis should expect such a reprisal until they are willing to give up on the settlements and allow for a Palestinian state.
Robin_Scotland
Although I agree that the Palestinians have every right to their land, and also that claiming land is rightfully the property of one race because of what some chap said in the days of the old testament is lunacy, it also has to be said that Israelis have right to their land also. Many were born in debated territories who have no desire to oppress Palestinians and its unfair to say 'move'. If it really was that simple, then the matter could be resolved quite easily.
campbejm
QUOTE(SuzySteamboat @ Oct 7 2003, 01:30 AM)
I voted Palestine. I don't care what some two thousand year old book says, I see the situation very simply. Israel moves in, kicks Palestinians out, expects them to sit there and take it. The Israelis took the Palestinians' land, and that's that. Not to expect this kind of backlash is pure foolishness. I don't think they should have to live side by side, I don't see the Israelis as having any sort of legitimate claim to the land. I think they should get out of there and give it back to the Palestinians.

What about the Israelis who were born in Israel? You may have had a point in 1960, but 40 years later there are many living Jews who were born in Israel. Do you suggest moving younger Israelis out of Israel even though that is where they were born? It seems to me that, unless you are harboring anti-semetic feelings, you would have to say the Israelis who were born there should be allowed to stay. After all you feel that Palestinians who were born outside of Israel have a claim on the land, so surely you think Israelis who were born in Israel could stay.

What then of their families? If you see the logic in allowing the younger part of the Israeli Jewish population to stay then it would be heartless to move the older part of the population out. Do you support the severance of all Israeli families?

So you see, the issue really isn't that simple.

To all else I say:

Don't forget the Palestinian organization Hamas does not target military instillations. They target restaurants and weddings and public transportation. That is terrorism. Attacks with the intent of making a civilian population afraid are terrorism and that is what Hamas does.

The Israeli army defends its citizens by trying to weed out Hamas members. That is defense of a people, not terrorism.

There is a difference. Israel is not perfect, but it is not a terrorist organization like Hamas.
moif
I vote neither, because neither side deserves my vote. The Palestinians have chosen to become a nation of murderers, and the Israeli's have no real right to be there in the first place.
I agree with Suzy on that score.
But since they are there now, and will not move, then I think it is their responsibility to conform to the region, not for the region to conform to them!

If they don't like that, then they shouldn't be living there!

How would I (or you) like it if a bunch of Muslims settled on top of my (your) nation and demanded that every one else in the surrounding region adopted Sharia law!?

I'd soon tell them where to go, and in no uncertain terms! hmmm.gif
Rev_DelFuego
QUOTE(campbejm @ Oct 7 2003, 12:40 PM)
QUOTE(SuzySteamboat @ Oct 7 2003, 01:30 AM)
I voted Palestine. I don't care what some two thousand year old book says, I see the situation very simply. Israel moves in, kicks Palestinians out, expects them to sit there and take it. The Israelis took the Palestinians' land, and that's that. Not to expect this kind of backlash is pure foolishness. I don't think they should have to live side by side, I don't see the Israelis as having any sort of legitimate claim to the land. I think they should get out of there and give it back to the Palestinians.

What about the Israelis who were born in Israel? You may have had a point in 1960, but 40 years later there are many living Jews who were born in Israel. Do you suggest moving younger Israelis out of Israel even though that is where they were born? It seems to me that, unless you are harboring anti-semetic feelings, you would have to say the Israelis who were born there should be allowed to stay. After all you feel that Palestinians who were born outside of Israel have a claim on the land, so surely you think Israelis who were born in Israel could stay.

What then of their families? If you see the logic in allowing the younger part of the Israeli Jewish population to stay then it would be heartless to move the older part of the population out. Do you support the severance of all Israeli families?

So you see, the issue really isn't that simple.

To all else I say:

Don't forget the Palestinian organization Hamas does not target military instillations. They target restaurants and weddings and public transportation. That is terrorism. Attacks with the intent of making a civilian population afraid are terrorism and that is what Hamas does.

The Israeli army defends its citizens by trying to weed out Hamas members. That is defense of a people, not terrorism.

There is a difference. Israel is not perfect, but it is not a terrorist organization like Hamas.

Israel is a terrorist organization. What do you call an army that shoot in largely populated areas. Are ignoring the lopsided body count. What is it around 20:1? Then there is the fact the Israelis have ignored around 50 UN resolutions, far more than any "rogue nation" like Iraq's 16. The use the military equipment that the US has given them, for seiges and occupations which is against the US Arms Trade Agreement. One last thing, Every Israeli must serve in the military, therefore these are not "innocent civilians" maybe unarmed retired or future soliders.
QUOTE
It seems to me that, unless you are harboring anti-semetic feelings
And you seem to be harboring some Zionist feelings. Do you think that the Jews are "Gods chosen People" and are greater then everyone else, therefore they should be allowed to displace the Pal. population so they can have a homeland. That is a silly label that the Jewish lobbist and Israelis use to blackmail people into submission, like terrorists, communists, and witches. Zionist are far worse then the people who just hate and won't stand for the Israeli military bulldozing entire Pal. communities, restricting their communities to leave their house, not even to buy food or go to school. You can't expect to oppress an entire group of people and expect no backlash.
And as far as Texas goes there is no way you could separate us Texans from or guns.
The only solution is for the UN to go in and take over the entire region and make clearly defined, continuos separate nations. Screw their shrines and churches. They have had more than enough time to find a way to coexist, now its time for peace at the end of a barrel. We should disarm Israel and have the protect them if needed.
quarkhead
I support Israelis and Palestinians who are seeking peace, through peaceful means.

I do think Israel, as the side holding the power, should accept the responsibility which accompanies that position. Perhaps this mess could have been prevented if, when Israel won the West Bank and Gaza, they welcomed the Palestinians immediately, gave them full Israeli citizenship with equal rights, and assimilated them into their culture. Israel has a high standard of living, and democratic freedoms and rights - if you happen to be Jewish. If the Palestinian people had been made a part of that from the beginning, would there be a problem today? The Palestinians were treated badly by Jordan and other Arab countries prior to this whole mess. Had they been welcomed into the Israeli fold open-armed, they might today be some of the strongest defenders of Israel, against the Arab nations who persecuted them for so long.

Of course, none of that happened, and we can't change history. Could such a move on Israel's part be feasable today? I just don't know. History can teach us one thing, however: building walls and governing by apartheid just don't work in the long term.
campbejm
QUOTE(moif @ Oct 7 2003, 03:05 PM)
the Israeli's have no real right to be there

By that argument and using that logic, all white Americans should move back to Europe. My ancestry leads back to Scotland among other places. I'm about as Scottish as I am from Pluto. I have never been there. I don’t know much about it. I am from and know Texas, which is really land ‘stolen’ from Native Americans centuries ago. Why do I owe those people for the transgressions of the people who were there before me? The answer is that I do not owe them for those actions.

The fact that you fail to address is that many Israelis were born in and have lived their whole lives in Israel. Do you really feel that these people should be sent to the places where their ancestors lived?

Like I said earlier, you may have had a leg to stand on making that argument 50 years ago, but things have changed. The Israeli people who live there now have just as much right to the land as the Palestinian refugees who have long since moved out.


QUOTE
And you seem to be harboring some Zionist feelings.


No. Actually I'm not Jewish so I can't be a Zionist. I'm just frustrated by the 'go back to Europe' arguments that get tossed around this issue so frequently. They are silly. If you think anti-Semitism is dead, you are naive. It is present in our world and sometimes manifests itself in a 'go back to Europe; kind of argument.


QUOTE
Israel is a terrorist organization. What do you call an army that shoot in largely populated areas.


No. It is not using violence as a means to create fear. The difference is: Israel is trying to find and kill Hamas. Hamas is killing civilians to create terror. A terrorist is someone whose goal is to scare the civilian population.

I call that an army in a tough situation. The terrorist have hidden themselves in the population thereby putting everyone at risk. Do you think Hamas should be allowed to operate unchecked?

If you want to make a valid argument against Israel, talk about things like unequal schooling, not land rights. Don't make a case against Israel by saying they are terrorists when they are not.
Rev_DelFuego
QUOTE
If you think anti-Semitism is dead, you are naive. It is present in our world and sometimes manifests itself in a 'go back to Europe; kind of argument.
But not in the levels it used to be. Every time a politician goes against the Jewish lobbiest, they label him Anti-semitic, just to force him to capitulate. A title which such a undeserved negative connection to stand up to the Israeli occupation would be political suicide.
QUOTE
No. It is not using violence as a means to create fear. The difference is: Israel is trying to find and kill Hamas. Hamas is killing civilians to create terror. A terrorist is someone whose goal is to scare the civilian population.

I call that an army in a tough situation. The terrorist have hidden themselves in the population thereby putting everyone at risk. Do you think Hamas should be allowed to operate unchecked?

If you want to make a valid argument against Israel, talk about things like unequal schooling, not land rights. Don't make a case against Israel by saying they are terrorists when they are not.

I don't think Hamas should go unchecked but they could do it a lot better then sending in Apaches into a crowded areas. israel has killed more innocent civilians than Hamas has by these strikes, and they go unchecked. And Israel isn't trying to just stop Hamas, they're are trying to take over all of Palestine. They always have been. here are some quotes
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The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. It includes parts of Syria and Lebanon

Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, in his testimony to the U.N. Special Committee of Enquiry, 1947
QUOTE
I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.
Ariel Sharon to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, Dec. 17, 1982
QUOTE
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinians] never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157
Ultimatejoe
Three quotes dating back to Independence and none less than 20 years old mean that all Israeli's are Zionist conquerers and usurpers? For all your yelling and screaming you're gonna have to do better than that. You didn't answer a question which was posed directly to you:

QUOTE
By that argument and using that logic, all white Americans should move back to Europe. My ancestry leads back to Scotland among other places. I'm about as Scottish as I am from Pluto. I have never been there. I don’t know much about it. I am from and know Texas, which is really land ‘stolen’ from Native Americans centuries ago. Why do I owe those people for the transgressions of the people who were there before me? The answer is that I do not owe them for those actions.

The fact that you fail to address is that many Israelis were born in and have lived their whole lives in Israel. Do you really feel that these people should be sent to the places where their ancestors lived?
SuzySteamboat
QUOTE(campbejm @ Oct 7 2003, 08:40 AM)
QUOTE(SuzySteamboat @ Oct 7 2003, 01:30 AM)
I voted Palestine. I don't care what some two thousand year old book says, I see the situation very simply. Israel moves in, kicks Palestinians out, expects them to sit there and take it. The Israelis took the Palestinians' land, and that's that. Not to expect this kind of backlash is pure foolishness. I don't think they should have to live side by side, I don't see the Israelis as having any sort of legitimate claim to the land. I think they should get out of there and give it back to the Palestinians.

What about the Israelis who were born in Israel? You may have had a point in 1960, but 40 years later there are many living Jews who were born in Israel. Do you suggest moving younger Israelis out of Israel even though that is where they were born? It seems to me that, unless you are harboring anti-semetic feelings, you would have to say the Israelis who were born there should be allowed to stay. After all you feel that Palestinians who were born outside of Israel have a claim on the land, so surely you think Israelis who were born in Israel could stay.

What then of their families? If you see the logic in allowing the younger part of the Israeli Jewish population to stay then it would be heartless to move the older part of the population out. Do you support the severance of all Israeli families?

So you see, the issue really isn't that simple.

To all else I say:

Don't forget the Palestinian organization Hamas does not target military instillations. They target restaurants and weddings and public transportation. That is terrorism. Attacks with the intent of making a civilian population afraid are terrorism and that is what Hamas does.

The Israeli army defends its citizens by trying to weed out Hamas members. That is defense of a people, not terrorism.

There is a difference. Israel is not perfect, but it is not a terrorist organization like Hamas.

I read until the "unless you are harboring anti-semitic feelings" and then I got *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** off. Yes, if I favor moving the Israelis who were born in Israel off the land so Palestinians could have it back, because it was rightfully the Palestinians' land in the first place, then I MUST HATE ALL JEWISH PEOPLE. I just knew someone would try to indicate that I was anti-semitic simply because I don't agree with 110% of everything that every single jewish person says, does, or thinks. Congrats on being It. Yes, I think even people born in Israel should get off the land, because they shouldn't even have been born there in the first place. If they didn't want to get kicked off then blame the people who stole it from the Palestinians to give it to them. What "seems to you" is completely moronic. The Palestinians who were born outside of Israel would presumably BE BORN IN PALESTINE. They wouldn't have BEEN BORN IN PALESTINE IN THE FIRST PLACE IF THEY HADN'T BEEN KICKED OFF THEIR LAND. So yes, Palestinians not born in Israel have a right to the land of Israel.
I don't care about their families. Let's say you just move in to someone's house and make them live under a bus stop down the street. You have kids, they have kids, and they all live in this house that you stole from the neighbor. Wouldn't you expect, even a little bit, that one day, maybe, just maybe the neighbor would come back to take what was rightfully theirs? If you don't anticipate that, then it's your problem because it's common sense that when you steal something from someone, they're going to want it back. The fact of the matter is, it's not their land, so they need to get off of it.
Hobbes
I voted neither, although I would tend to lean towards the Israeli viewpoint currently. You can go back and forth on the various legal issues on whose land it is, but I think that misses the point completely. The Palestinian's will never get what they want from terrorism. That, I think, is simply a fact. Therefore, their continued support of it is self-defeating and counterproductive. Israel has demonstrated that they are able to both make peace, and keep it, as their relationship with Egypt and Jordan has shown. The Palestinians have shown neither, at this point. This is what creates the dilemma for Israeli. The Palestinians seem unwilling to stop the terrorism until they get what they want. If Israel were to give it to them, what's to prevent the Palestinian's from continuing to terrorize? Many of the groups there have stated they won't be satisified until Isreal ceases to exist, so there is good reason for concern on the Israeli's part. This puts the ball firmly in the Palestinian's court--show progress on eliminating terrorism, then come to the table. This would put the ball back in the Israeli's court--but so far the Palestinian's seem unable to make this step. If they were to do so, my leanings might go back to their side.
campbejm
QUOTE(SuzySteamboat @ Oct 7 2003, 06:21 PM)
I read until the "unless you are harboring anti-semitic feelings" and then I got *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** off. Yes, if I favor moving the Israelis who were born in Israel off the land so Palestinians could have it back, because it was rightfully the Palestinians' land in the first place, then I MUST HATE ALL JEWISH PEOPLE. I just knew someone would try to indicate that I was anti-semitic simply because I don't agree with 110% of everything that every single jewish person says, does, or thinks. Congrats on being It. Yes, I think even people born in Israel should get off the land, because they shouldn't even have been born there in the first place. If they didn't want to get kicked off then blame the people who stole it from the Palestinians to give it to them. What "seems to you" is completely moronic. The Palestinians who were born outside of Israel would presumably BE BORN IN PALESTINE. They wouldn't have BEEN BORN IN PALESTINE IN THE FIRST PLACE IF THEY HADN'T BEEN KICKED OFF THEIR LAND. So yes, Palestinians not born in Israel have a right to the land of Israel.
I don't care about their families. Let's say you just move in to someone's house and make them live under a bus stop down the street. You have kids, they have kids, and they all live in this house that you stole from the neighbor. Wouldn't you expect, even a little bit, that one day, maybe, just maybe the neighbor would come back to take what was rightfully theirs? If you don't anticipate that, then it's your problem because it's common sense that when you steal something from someone, they're going to want it back. The fact of the matter is, it's not their land, so they need to get off of it.

First, at some point your ancestors did not own Cincinnati, so if you believe your own argument you need to move back to Europe (or Africa or South America or where ever). Can you not see the hypocrisy of your statements?

Secondly, it is fundamentally racist to say: "All Jews in Israel have to move because they are Jews." Like it or not, your statements are anti-Semitic. I think the so-called "racists card" get played too often in the U.S. I can't stand extreme political correctness. However, I have to call a spade a spade.

Perhaps I went too far by suggesting that you held anti-Semitic feelings, but your statements regarding this conflict are anti-Semitic.


Thirdly, thank you UltimateJoe for this. I would also like to have that question answered.
QUOTE
Three quotes dating back to Independence and none less than 20 years old mean that all Israeli's are Zionist conquerers and usurpers? For all your yelling and screaming you're gonna have to do better than that. You didn't answer a question which was posed directly to you:
moif
Campbejm

QUOTE
By that argument and using that logic, all white Americans should move back to Europe. My ancestry leads back to Scotland among other places. I'm about as Scottish as I am from Pluto. I have never been there. I don’t know much about it. I am from and know Texas, which is really land ‘stolen’ from Native Americans centuries ago. Why do I owe those people for the transgressions of the people who were there before me? The answer is that I do not owe them for those actions.


Not at all. There is no living American or native of the America's that has any memory of those times, so you owe them nothing.

In Israel however, there are still Palestinians alive who were kicked off their ancestoral homes, and have every right to expect the free world to support them in their efforts to reclaim their stolen land.


QUOTE
The fact that you fail to address is that many Israelis were born in and have lived their whole lives in Israel. Do you really feel that these people should be sent to the places where their ancestors lived?


er.... My very next sentence was to state that they (the Israeli's) were not going to leave and so an accomidation has to be made, so I'm not sure what you mean by saying I 'failed to address' the fact. It seems to me, what you are really saying is that you disagree profoundly with my point of view, and you wish to draw attention to that fact with an obtuse attack.

Thats fair enough, but please read my posts more carefully if you wish to comment on them.


QUOTE
Like I said earlier, you may have had a leg to stand on making that argument 50 years ago, but things have changed.


Yes, I read that, but I'm afraid I disagree.

As long as there are people alive who remember the foundation of Israel, then nothing has changed, and we are still living in the same time frame.

Come again in about thirty years and I'll agree with you.


QUOTE
The Israeli people who live there now have just as much right to the land as the Palestinian refugees who have long since moved out.


I don't think you understand. Perhaps in your fervour you have drawn some unjust conclusions regarding my post?

I said they had no right to be there in the first place. Today, two generations on, (as I also mentioned) 'they are there now, and will not move, then I think it is their responsibility to conform to the region, not for the region to conform to them!'

I also find it interesting, that you choose to describe the forced removal of many thousands of Palestinians as Palestinian refugees who have long since moved out.

Moved out??? In any other region, the phrase 'ethnically cleansed' would have been used, but for some reason, this phrase does not seem to apply to Israeli's.

Why is that?

If its a fair description for what happened in Bosnia, Kroatia, and in the various African conflicts of the last decade, then why do we pretend otherwise with Israel?

As has already ben pointed out, Israel is a democracy, and claims to be member state of western society. If that is so, then why do they break our every code of conduct, ignore the UN and ignore the criticism of the very nations they claim to belong to?

As I mentioned in my last post, Israel is the new comer to the region, and all the religous ramblings of any number of holy works cannot justify taking over a region and imposing an alien society upon the indiginous population.

So, whether or not Israel has any right to the land, it certainly has the duty to make peace with its neighbours.

It has not done so.

I think when all is said and one, the facts are simple. American backed Jews, formed a state in the middle of the Muslim world, without any support from the millions of people who live in that area. They forcefully removed the original inhabitants, and now even refuse to acknowledge them as 'Palestinians' claiming there never was such a state as 'Palestine' (as if that matters!) and who today, hold their state, not by law, but my military means.

Any one who questions this deplorable set of affairs is soon branded an anti semite, or is subjected to the usual battery of counter claims regarding Hamas terrorists, without any regard to the very nature of the first Israeli freedom fighter (read terrorists) who actually founded the state of Israel.

Why is Israel exempt from the common perception of conduct?

And why is it that when Israel attacks targets without putting forward any form of evidence or proof to back their actions, we are supposed to simply accept the notion that Israel 'has a right to defend themselves'.

If they do, then so do the Palestinians!

And just what exactly is it that Israel is defending themselves against? Why is killing children, old people, pregnant women and any one else unfortunate to be living in the house crushed by an IDF tank, justified by 'terrorist actions'?

Other nations, Britain, Spain, Italy and the USA have all witnessed horrifying atrocities committed by terrorists, but I have yet to see British combat tanks ploughing through Northern Irish houses, or Spanish helicopters firing on cars in busy streets with anti armour missiles.

If Israel wants recognition, or respect, or anything at all from the rest of the western world, then they should start acting like the rest of the western world.

However, judging by Israel's total lack of respect for the UN, then it is painfully obvious that Israel is not going to start acting like the rest of the western world, and as such has alienated not just the Muslims, but the rest of us as well.


Or in other words, they made their bed, and now they must lie in it.

I have no sympathy for their cause, what so ever.
Rev_DelFuego
QUOTE
Three quotes dating back to Independence and none less than 20 years old mean that all Israeli's are Zionist conquerers and usurpers? For all your yelling and screaming you're gonna have to do better than that. You didn't answer a question which was posed directly to you:

Wow give me some time geez! Yes these quotes are 20 years old. But the people who said them at one point controlled the nation and has steered it by their beliefs was which was stated. Do you think the hate Sharon had died? Does he want to share the land with the Pal people. Then why is he building walls, attacking first during a cease fire, he surely isn't acting like it. Here are some more recent ones.
QUOTE
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."

Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998
QUOTE
Jordan is a part from Eretz Israel in history.

Ariel Sharon, When he became the Prime minister, 2000
this one is a favorite.
QUOTE
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.
He still gear toward expansion of Israel.
Everything Israel has gained is illegal, and I can prove it. You just sit a call out names like Anti- semitic and provide no proof, and demanding it of me. Here are some things Israelis has done over the years, and to simply let them goes against everything we fight for. '
QUOTE
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949
Did you know that Israeli forces killed an estimated 13,000 Palestinians since 1948? They forcibly evicted 737,166 Palestinians from the homes and land. 503 Palestinian villages were entirely depopulated and destroyed? Did you know that by the end of 1967, there were only 3 settlements in total (concentrated in the West Bank), whereas now, this figure has risen to 195. 18 settlements have been established in Gaza Strip, and 177 in the West Bank (including Jerusalem)?
BTW I at no time said the Israelis need to leave. They need to obey all of the UN resolutions against them like UN security resolution 242, The Oslo Agreements (which they even agreed to), The Road Map, and the Geneva Conventions. Just the influx alone of the displaced Pal refugees would cause the Israelis to lose power, and they have been avoiding it. So what are you reasons the Israelis should be able to keep all the settlements and the roads leading to them. I swear if you say the bible then there is no point in arguing. Thats why their is a separation from Church and state.
And to address this point.
QUOTE
I voted neither, although I would tend to lean towards the Israeli viewpoint currently. You can go back and forth on the various legal issues on whose land it is, but I think that misses the point completely. The Palestinian's will never get what they want from terrorism.

Don't you think thats what Israel wants. They want the Pal to go toe to toe with them. That way they can annilate them and take their land by force. They do not want peace. The want the land plain and simple. Nothing is out of reach for them to get it. Even assainating the politically elected leader. And with those quotes from Sharon, don't even start to discredit Arafat cause I have a ton more.
Campbejm, since I went to the trouble of finding answers to your demand, then I demand you address these quotes one by one and answer the following questions in depth.
1. What gives the Israelis the right to Pal. land?
2. What gives the Israelis the right to ignore the rest of the world?
3. What gives the Israelis the right to shut down economic centers, schools and bulldoze entire neighborhoods?
SoCaliente_1
I don't know Rev. What I think they might REALLY want is for the murder of innocent people to stop. That would make sense...if only to me.
SuzySteamboat
QUOTE(campbejm @ Oct 7 2003, 02:55 PM)
QUOTE(SuzySteamboat @ Oct 7 2003, 06:21 PM)

I read until the "unless you are harboring anti-semitic feelings" and then I got *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** off. Yes, if I favor moving the Israelis who were born in Israel off the land so Palestinians could have it back, because it was rightfully the Palestinians' land in the first place, then I MUST HATE ALL JEWISH PEOPLE. I just knew someone would try to indicate that I was anti-semitic simply because I don't agree with 110% of everything that every single jewish person says, does, or thinks. Congrats on being It. Yes, I think even people born in Israel should get off the land, because they shouldn't even have been born there in the first place. If they didn't want to get kicked off then blame the people who stole it from the Palestinians to give it to them. What "seems to you" is completely moronic. The Palestinians who were born outside of Israel would presumably BE BORN IN PALESTINE. They wouldn't have BEEN BORN IN PALESTINE IN THE FIRST PLACE IF THEY HADN'T BEEN KICKED OFF THEIR LAND. So yes, Palestinians not born in Israel have a right to the land of Israel.
I don't care about their families. Let's say you just move in to someone's house and make them live under a bus stop down the street. You have kids, they have kids, and they all live in this house that you stole from the neighbor. Wouldn't you expect, even a little bit, that one day, maybe, just maybe the neighbor would come back to take what was rightfully theirs? If you don't anticipate that, then it's your problem because it's common sense that when you steal something from someone, they're going to want it back. The fact of the matter is, it's not their land, so they need to get off of it.

First, at some point your ancestors did not own Cincinnati, so if you believe your own argument you need to move back to Europe (or Africa or South America or where ever). Can you not see the hypocrisy of your statements?

Secondly, it is fundamentally racist to say: "All Jews in Israel have to move because they are Jews." Like it or not, your statements are anti-Semitic. I think the so-called "racists card" get played too often in the U.S. I can't stand extreme political correctness. However, I have to call a spade a spade.

Perhaps I went too far by suggesting that you held anti-Semitic feelings, but your statements regarding this conflict are anti-Semitic.


Thirdly, thank you UltimateJoe for this. I would also like to have that question answered.
QUOTE
Three quotes dating back to Independence and none less than 20 years old mean that all Israeli's are Zionist conquerers and usurpers? For all your yelling and screaming you're gonna have to do better than that. You didn't answer a question which was posed directly to you:

Wouldn't it be nice if indeed I had said, as you "quoted" me: "All Jews in Israel have to move because they are Jews." If you're going to respond to me with this crap, then I'm just going to stop debating with you because your twisting of my words is also *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** me off. I have never said the above statement that you "quoted" me as saying, anywhere, anytime, in my entire life. Furthermore, I never said anywhere that the reason they had to move was because they were Jewish. I spent 99.9% of the post explaining that they should move because they have no rights to the land they're living on, but in your haste to label me anti-semitic and justify your ignorant assumption, you somehow completely ignored my reasoning and invented one of your own. I have no idea where the hell you got that I was saying they had to move explicitly because they were Jewish, which implies that I don't want any Jewish people on that land because I'm anti-semitic and not because of the fact that the Israelis - and as far as I know, "Israeli" isn't completely synonymous with "Jewish" - have no valid right to the land they kicked people off of to settle on.
Of course my ancestors didn't own Cincinnati. So? They also didn't kick anyone off of their land to take it for themselves, like the Israelis did. Completely different situation, you're comparing apples and oranges.
My statements are only anti-semitic because you keep twisting them, and even inventing things that I haven't said that you think are anti-semitic. For the last time, and if you keep up your "anti-semitic" accusation after that, well then there's no use arguing with ignorance - I believe the Israelis should get off the land BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO IT. I don't give a damn whether they're Jewish, European, Australian, Finnish, Spanish, Dutch, African, or Neptunian. They stole the land from the Palestinians, and they should give it back. Done anyone out there get what I'm saying??? IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR RACE. Geez.
Rev_DelFuego
QUOTE(SoCaliente_1 @ Oct 7 2003, 10:58 PM)
I don't know Rev. What I think they might REALLY want is for the murder of innocent people to stop. That would make sense...if only to me.

Sorry it took me so long to respond , but I had to try and interpret what "they" you were talking about. If they you are refering to the Israelis then how do you explain them killing to stop the killing. Ghandi said something like an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind. They give little to no money to the Pal. police force to stop the terrorist, and alot of the time the Soliders harass the Pal police. If I was a cop I would be *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** at the Israelis too. The Israeli government wants the terrorists, that way they can gain the world sympathy and bring up the holocaust for an added effect, so they can get a blank check to further move the Pal people out of their lands in order for them to make more room for illegal settlements. This has been their mission since the inception of Israel. Look at the quotes and tell me I'm wrong. Or do you need more? If you do then ask, cause I have them from the early 1900. Like:
QUOTE
A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. I am certain that we can not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country and the region.
David Ben Gurion, in a letter to his son, 1937
QUOTE
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves…politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
Speech by David Ben-Gurion, 1938, quoted in Zionism and the Palestinians by Simha Flapan, 1979
Dontreadonme
QUOTE
The Israeli government wants the terrorists, that way they can gain the world sympathy and bring up the holocaust for an added effect, so they can get a blank check to further move the Pal people out of their lands in order for them to make more room for illegal settlements

That's the most morbid, baseless, unsubstantiated quote I've seen all day. Do you really believe that the Israeli government wants the cold blooded murder of it's women, children and elderly to garner world opinion?
Yes, I do need more than quotes from early Israeli leaders that justifies the belief that they are sacrificing their citizens.
As for killing palestinian civilians, where is the outrage against Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyrs for not only intentionally targeting civilians, but placing their base of operations in their midst and virtually using them as shields as they run back to their holes like cockroaches.

QUOTE
I said they had no right to be there in the first place. Today, two generations on, (as I also mentioned) 'they are there now, and will not move, then I think it is their responsibility to conform to the region, not for the region to conform to them!'

I don't understand this, are you saying that the Israeli's should convert to Islam and turn their country into a dictatorship?
If the palestinians as a 'peaceful' people simply want their own state why do they, and in fact their supporters seem to forget that the UN voted to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states in 1947.
Palestinian Arabs opposed the plan, and immediately initiated riots , a blockade of Jewish Jerusalem, and ambushes of buses and other transport throughout the British Mandate territories.
When the mandate expired, the Jews declared a state in accordance with the partition resolution, and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq invaded Palestine.
Palestinians were displaced from the area that is now Israel, fair enough. Many moved into Transjordan which was 80% of the land mass that was until then called, yes thats's right....Palestine. I agree that the creation of refugees is a blot on Israel's record. But to paint the picture that 'Palestine" was anything more than a semi-autonomous leftover from the Ottoman Empire, then subdivided by the european victors of WWI is silly. Couple that with the fact that the inhabitants had no sense of palestinian identity prior to Israel's war of independence in 1948.
Link
Whats in the past is in the past, Israel isn't going away. They must find a way to stop the violence in the region. One first step is to stop the settlements in the disputed territories, another is to stop murdering Israeli civilians. Both sides share some of the blame, I just can't bring myself to be sympathetic towards people who commit suicide, taking several dozen innocents with them, with the intent of spending the afterlife surrounded by 72 virgins, or white raisins, depending on whose interpretation of the Qur'an you believe.


edited for spelling
nileriver
I don’t think that he was implying that the Jews become Muslims, i don’t think that could occur in a million years for either side over there. A religion is not genetic, there is no catholic gene, but for some religious people or groups it might as well be. If i was to go to say china, it would be rather silly of me to expect the people there to cater or conform to my standards or language. I guess more to the point is like the American melting pot, certain amounts of surrender need to be made by both sides. Both sides also house militant racists, i know this, some of the stories are not very pretty. The level of that identity is veracious, in that the youth themselves are even violent, i also have read and witnessed this on t.v, its almost like a constant race war in some regards.

Israel is also very keen on its image, they will and do openly shoot journalists, i got to watch this as well. Most of the time for civil disturbance the IDF uses rubber bullets, these bullets still contain a steel core and are lethal at close distance, this one reporter was shot 3 times including one to the head, and reporters have been shot and killed, including American reporters. Why they do this i can only speculate, but the practice is something they engage in. It is a horrific amount of violence to observe even on t.v, and i am sure the trauma has lasting and deep roots in the psyches on the two groups, especially when what they are fighting for is so important to them.

On one last sad remark, the only time these two groups will not kill and maim one another is around religious artifacts, the human life is not even important anymore.
Rev_DelFuego
QUOTE
Yes, I do need more than quotes from early Israeli leaders that justifies the belief that they are sacrificing their citizens.

Ask and thou shall receive
QUOTE
After we become a strong force as the result of the creation of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.
David Ben-Gurion

QUOTE
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

QUOTE
"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."
Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956.

QUOTE
"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger."Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956.

Now I know your going to say that "this doesn't show the Israelis sacrificing their own," but would you sit there and be on the receiving end of this quote. The Israeli government starts the violence. Look at the most recent one, the Israelis claims Hamas is rearming and go on a killing spree end a two week cease fire. Like I said earlier no Israeli is truly innocent. The Israelis have a mandatory 2 year military service for all their citizens, that means they are, have been, or will be an oppressor of the Pal people. Do you suggest that the Pal go toe to toe with the Israeli military? It amazes me how many people side with Israel with so many human right violated, that leads to the poverty of the Pal people and you expect them to sit their and do nothing. It was their in action in the first place that allowed the Israelis to take over the land they have been living on since the ottoman empire.
And BTW no one has still answered any of the Questions
QUOTE
1. What gives the Israelis the right to Pal. land?
2. What gives the Israelis the right to ignore the rest of the world?
3. What gives the Israelis the right to shut down economic centers, schools and bulldoze entire neighborhoods?

And finally
QUOTE
I just can't bring myself to be sympathetic towards people who commit suicide, taking several dozen innocents with them, with the intent of spending the afterlife surrounded by 72 virgins, or white raisins, depending on whose interpretation of the Qur'an you believe.
I just can't bring myself to be sympathetic towards people who commit murders, taking several dozen innocents with those the deem guilty, with the intent of spreading their territory because they think they are"Gods Chosen people" and god himself gave them that land and the should remove anyone that lives there.
Dontreadonme
QUOTE
The Israelis have a mandatory 2 year military service for all their citizens, that means they are, have been, or will be an oppressor of the Pal people

Ok, then using your logic, every palestinian are, have been, or will be a homicide bomber.
QUOTE
Look at the most recent one, the Israelis claims Hamas is rearming and go on a killing spree end a two week cease fire.

You obviously underestimate the intelligence capabilities of the Mossad, Duvedan and the Sayeret Golany. I too would quickly end a cease fire when I found out the enemy was about to execute the same, it's called survival.
QUOTE
1. What gives the Israelis the right to Pal. land?
2. What gives the Israelis the right to ignore the rest of the world?
3. What gives the Israelis the right to shut down economic centers, schools and bulldoze entire neighborhoods?

I'll bite.
1. UN General Assembly Resolution 181 Link
2. The inability of the UN to implement and force the arabs to abide by said resolution.
3. Because the stated goal of the Fatah faction (Arafat's peeps) is
QUOTE
Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence
And that's the tip of this little iceberg. Fatah Constitution
GoAmerica
I am on the side of Israel because they are being attacked by terrorist forces and the UN is condeming them and not the terrorists. Israel has a right to retaliate to confirm the safety of it's citizens. If the UN won't do anything, then Israel will...even if it comes to assassinating Arafat and/or the rest of his cabinet
Hobbes
QUOTE
Just the influx alone of the displaced Pal refugees would cause the Israelis to lose power, and they have been avoiding it.


An issue which must be resolved before peace can come about. The Isreali's are not going to pursue a policy which removes them from power. That is a fact. IMHO, it is also a fact that the UN will not force them to do so. So, clearly, this is an issue the Palestinians are going to have to accept. I think the best they could hope for would be either a separate state (more likely), or a new Israeli government in which they share power (less likely). This is the real stick point in repatriation, and the Palestinians need to be realistic about it.
moif
DTM

I assume this was addressed to me?

QUOTE
I don't understand this, are you saying that the Israeli's should convert to Islam and turn their country into a dictatorship?


If so, then answer is no.

What I'm saying is that they should make concessions to their neighbours.

I know this is difficult, but they knew that when they annexed Palestine in the first place.

My opinion is simple. They knew when they (the first Israeli's) first started their exodus that the local inhabitants would not welcome them. So they used terrorist actions to ethnically cleanse the region, and terrorist actions, (like the atrocity at the King David Hotel) to found their state.

Israel's entire approach has been one of extreme prejudice and hostility and at no point what so ever have they made any attempt to reach out to the people of the middle east.

As such, they have themselves created the mess which they today face.


GA

QUOTE
I am on the side of Israel because they are being attacked by terrorist forces and the UN is condeming them and not the terrorists.


I suggest you do some more research GA. The UN has condemned just about every terrorist action which ever took place.

Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that Israel itself was founded in the wake of an armed uprising/ terrorist campaign.

And you are also ignoring the fact that Israel itself fostered, trained and supported terrorist factions in Beirut and Lebannon.


I don't know why so many Americans have this idea that the Israeli's are somehow innocent of any blame in the matter of the intifada.

When the Israeli's have killed three times as many Palestinians as the Palestinians have killed Israeli's, then its got nothing to do with defence!

Thats offence.

I also find it amazing that so many of you focus on the fact that the terrorists target civilians, when its perfectly clear from multiple examples that the IDF has an equal share of blood on its hands.

So just why is it acceptable for the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) to kill civilian Palestinians, but not for the Palestinians to strike back?

editted for spelling
campbejm
SuzySteamboat says:
[quote]I don't see the Israelis as having any sort of legitimate claim to the land. I think they should get out of there and give it back to the Palestinians.[/quote]

Then moif says:
[quote]I agree with Suzy on that score.[/quote]

So I quoted you in my rebuttal of SuzySteamboat's statement about making the Israelis leave. I apologize if you didn’t mean to associate yourself with her remarks, because you may have said 'no right in the first place' but she did say “they should get out of there.”

Now:


Moif:
[quote]Moved out??? In any other region, the phrase 'ethnically cleansed' would have been used, but for some reason, this phrase does not seem to apply to Israeli's. [/quote]

Ethnic Cleansing refers to genocide, not refugees moving away from a conflict. You are right that the phrase does not apply here because the Israelis are not rounding up and executing Palestinians.

Moif:
[quote]American backed Jews, formed a state in the middle of the Muslim world, without any support from the millions of people who live in that area. They forcefully removed the original inhabitants, and now even refuse to acknowledge them as 'Palestinians' claiming there never was such a state as 'Palestine' (as if that matters!) and who today, hold their state, not by law, but my military means.[/quote]
1) Americans did not form Israel; The Israelis did. (The British moved European Holocaust survivors to their colony in the Middle East.)
2) George W. Bush has publicly advocated a separate Palestinian state during his presidency.

Moif:
[quote]Any one who questions this deplorable set of affairs is soon branded an anti semite.[/quote]
No. That is not true. As I have said (speaking of reading posts), it is anti-Semitic to say that all Israeli Jews should be forcefully deported from Israel. That is anti-Semitic. Which moif does not believe, but some on this thread do.

Moif: (referring to Israel)
[quote]I have no sympathy for their cause, what so ever[/quote]
In your post you ramble about the poor Palestinians, saying they have a right to 'defend' themselves with suicide attacks. You take pity on them for the actions of the Israeli army; and then you say you have no sympathy for the Israeli victims of terrorism? How do you justify this?


SuzySteamboat says:
[quote]Wouldn't it be nice if indeed I had said, as you "quoted" me: "All Jews in Israel have to move because they are Jews."[/quote]
Suzy, in an earlier post you wrote:
"I don't see the Israelis as having any sort of legitimate claim to the land. I think they should get out of there and give it back to the Palestinians."
That means move the Jews out of Israel.
Suzy says:
[quote]and as far as I know, "Israeli" isn't completely synonymous with "Jewish"[/quote]
In the context of this argument, here and in the media, Israelis are Jews. The people that the Palestinians want to throw out are the Jewish people who live in Israel.
Suzy says:
[quote]IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR RACE. [/quote]
Step 1: The Holocaust
Step 2: Britain settles Jewish survivors in their colony.
Step 3: The Jewish people set up a government (Israel) and oppress the Palestianian people.
Step 4: Palestinians kill innocent Israeli civilians because they are mad and because those victims are Jewish.

Suzy it has everything to do with race.

Suzy Says:
[quote]Of course my ancestors didn't own Cincinnati. So? They also didn't kick anyone off of their land to take it for themselves, like the Israelis did. Completely different situation, you're comparing apples and oranges.[/quote]
Who do you think was there in the year 1800 or 1700 or 1600? I bet it wasn't white people. The Native American people were violently forced off their land as the United States expended west into Ohio and beyond. They were forced to live on 'reservations' which became smaller and smaller as time went on. So Suzy, you see, people were pushed off their land so that the State of Ohio could be filled with the descendants of Europeans and Africans.

I am not twisting what you say.


Moif says:
[quote]So just why is it acceptable for the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) to kill civilian Palestinians, but not for the Palestinians to strike back?[/quote]
It is a matter of intent. When the IDF kills a civilian, it is during an attempt to find and kill terrorists. When a Palestinian organization attacks, its goal is to kill civilians in order to set fear in the hearts of Jewish people. Do you see the difference?

Israel = trying to find militants (or as some of the posts would have us believe, the Army of the Palestinians)
Palestinians = trying to kill civilians and use fear as a political tool.

It's pretty clear.
Billy Jean
I voted for Israel. mrsparkle.gif My religious convictions aside, I'm in support of Israel because Palestinians have an overwhelming majority of Muslim supporters in the Middle East in whom they could turn too for aide and assistance and Israel is a solitary beacon their. Without restating my countless posts on this topic in detail, I am support of Israel because they have 1) a stronger historical tie to the land, 2) because Israel is one of our only true allies in the region and 3) because Israel is a true democracy and Palestine is a terrorist regime. shifty.gif
Rev_DelFuego
Well good morning ladies and Gentlemen. Looks like another day of debating.
QUOTE
I'll bite.
1. UN General Assembly Resolution 181 Link
2. The inability of the UN to implement and force the arabs to abide by said resolution.
3. Because the stated goal of the Fatah faction (Arafat's peeps) is


1.) Look at UN Resolution 242 & 338
UN Security Council Resolution 242 was adopted unanimously on November 22nd 1967 after the Arab-Israeli war in June 1967. It calls on Israel to withdraw its military forces to the boundaries prior to that war, thus, to return all Palestinian territories it occupied by force.
The Oslo Accords
Geneva Conventions
2.) The UN can't get involved because the US vetos anything that relates to Israel. By cracking down on innocent Pal they create more problems then they solve. Think how desperate you would need to be to do something like that. Just to make a statement. Israel pushes these people to do it by forcing them to live below the poverty line and through seiges.
3.) Yes, it is the Zionists that are causing the problem. NOT THE JEWS! Just the Jews that believe they Are GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE and set up settlements all over the West bank and Gaza pushing the Pal. people off their land and burning down their villages.
QUOTE
Ok, then using your logic, every palestinian are, have been, or will be a homicide bomber.

No, only the people that the Israeli government oppress and have no chance to improve become suicide bombers. These people do it by choice not force like their Israeli oppressors use.

QUOTE
I too would quickly end a cease fire when I found out the enemy was about to execute the same, it's called survival.

Where's the evidence? Why didn't they give it to the P.A. and force them to handle it instead of killing a dozen or so people with a Apache strike? Atleast they would have put the spotlight on the P.A.
QUOTE
Israel = trying to find militants (or as some of the posts would have us believe, the Army of the Palestinians)

Then why during cease fires does the Israeli government send in military bulldozers into West Bank and Gaza to bulldoze villages? The only reason I can see is Zionism.
QUOTE
2) because Israel is one of our only true allies in the region

Why are they our allies? Maybe its the 16 million dollars a day we give them, or the numerous vetos we give them in the UN despite all the other nations agreeing, or maybe it because we let them run our international policies like Areil Sharon said as quoted in my earlier post. They are the major reason that not only the Muslim world but many of our allies despise us.
Billy Jean
Zionism? rolleyes.gif Israel bulldozes homes of TERRORISTS, not the home of the average Palestinian civilian. Israelis do not blow up busses, cafe's, resturaunts, malls, hotels...
Israel has every right to exist their if for no other reason than it's creation by England and the UN. It's a recognized government and is defending it's self like we are from terrorists and our enemies. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Israel gave up, they'd be "driven into the sea" and they're not going to allow that to happen. If you call self preservation Zionism, so be it. But I call it self defense. dry.gif

Edit to add: So what that they hate us. We're doing the RIGHT THING and sometimes the right thing isn't the poplular thing.
moif
Campbejm

QUOTE
In your post you ramble about the poor Palestinians, saying they have a right to 'defend' themselves with suicide attacks. You take pity on them for the actions of the Israeli army; and then you say you have no sympathy for the Israeli victims of terrorism? How do you justify this?


Because I see the Palestinians as the victims.

And I see a direct parallel to when Germany invaded and annexed my nation without regard to our sovereignty, independence or laws.

Had the allies not liberated Denmark, we would still be a province of Germany.

I feel sorry for the Palestinians because none of the worlds powers is going to intercede on their behalf as long as America is drip feeding Israel.


QUOTE
In the context of this argument, here and in the media, Israelis are Jews. The people that the Palestinians want to throw out are the Jewish people who live in Israel.


I know this was aimed at Suzy, but I'd like to inject, that not all Israeli's are Jewish, there is a proportion of the poulation who are Arab Israeli's.

Also, not all Jews are Israeli (myself included) and do not support the idea of a homeland exclusivley for one religous group.

And I certainly do not accept the ethnic cleansing that has taken place to create the state of Israel!

And yes, it was ethnic cleansing, in every sense of the word. If you really think that the Israeli's did not mass murder plenty of Palestinians when they were first moving in, then you need to do more research on this subject. They murdered entire Palestinian and Arab villages in the early days.


QUOTE
It is a matter of intent. When the IDF kills a civilian, it is during an attempt to find and kill terrorists. When a Palestinian organization attacks, its goal is to kill civilians in order to set fear in the hearts of Jewish people. Do you see the difference?


I see what you are saying, but I disagree. Its fairly obvious at this stage that majority Israel has no intention what so ever of allowing the Palestinians a state. If nothing else, then the assassination of Rabin, and the take over of power by Netanyahu and Sharon is evidence enough of that.

And Rev_DelFuego has already provided plenty of quotes by Ariel Sharon to back this view up.

I simply do not believe that the IDF has no intent to kill Palestinian civilians. It is simply impossible to kill so many civilians, as the IDF has now done, over such a long period of time, without premeditation.
The IDF uses some of the wolrd most accurate and stable weapons systems... and then they use bull dozers.

It is my belief that the IDF has every intention of murdering every Palestinian they can get away with, and were it not for the money that comes from the USA, and the sensibilities that come with it, they would have done as Sharon advocated back in the eighties and pushed every Palestinian out of Israel.


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Israel = trying to find militants (or as some of the posts would have us believe, the Army of the Palestinians)
Palestinians = trying to kill civilians and use fear as a political tool.

It's pretty clear.


AS I pointed out to GA, Israel itself uses fear and terror as a weapon.

Just why do you think so many of their anti armour rounds miss the target?

Why do you suppose so many red cross ambulances, UN staff, journalists and peace demonstrators have been deliberatly targetted?

And why do you suppose the kill ratio is three Palestinians to every Israeli?
campbejm
The difference between invading Germany and the Israel situation is that Israel is a nation that was founded by Jews who were moved from Europe to a British colony by the British. There was no hostile invasion.

Ok. There are Arab Israelis. But the people who the Arafat sees are responsible for the problems of the Palestinians are Israeli Jews. Those are the people he wants dead or gone. Clearly not all Jews are Israeli.

I think your use of the phrase 'ethnic cleansing' in incorrect as it refers to systematic, government sponsored murder. I challenge you to provide proof of 'ethnic cleansing' in Israel. No doubt there has been murder and wrong doing on both sides of this conflict, but there has not been "ethnic cleansing". Why haven’t nations like Iraq or Iran or Syria brought this to the attention of an organization where they hold seats, namely, the U.N.? It seems as though that would be an excellent tactic to undermine Israel.

There is no ethnic cleansing in Israel.


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Why are they our allies? Maybe its the 16 million dollars a day we give them, or the numerous vetos we give them in the UN despite all the other nations agreeing, or maybe it because we let them run our international policies like Areil Sharon said as quoted in my earlier post. They are the major reason that not only the Muslim world but many of our allies despise us.


We are the allies of Israel because without our support the people of that nation would be murdered in the streets. There is no group of Jewish people in Washington running all foreign policy.
Ultimatejoe
Quite simply because the Palestinean terrorists USE innocent civilians as shields. An action that they have been condemned for by the the U.N. as well.

Suzy, the Miami indians might have something to say about your assertion that nobody took the land that is now Cincinnati. At what point does an annexation become legitimized in your mind?
Rev_DelFuego
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The Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic," he said. "People are scared in this country, to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful -- very powerful."

SURE rolleyes.gif
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The Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic," he said. "People are scared in this country, to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful -- very powerful."
D. Tutu, "Apartheid in the Holy Land," The Guardian (Britain), April 29, 2002
QUOTE
Since the 1960s, Jews have come to wield considerable influence in American economic, cultural, intellectual and political life. Jews played a central role in American finance during the 1980s, and they were among the chief beneficiaries of that decade's corporate mergers and reorganizations. Today, though barely two percent of the nation's population is Jewish, close to half its billionaires are Jews. The chief executive officers of the three major television networks and the four largest film studios are Jews, as are the owners of the nation's largest newspaper chain and the most influential single newspaper, the New York Times ... The role and influence of Jews in American politics is equally marked ...

Jews are only three percent of the nation's population and comprise eleven percent of what this study defines as the nation's elite. However, Jews constitute more than 25 percent of the elite journalists and publishers, more than 17 percent of the leaders of important voluntary and public interest organizations, and more than 15 percent of the top ranking civil servants.
Benjamin Ginsberg, The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State (University of Chicago, 1993), pp. 1, 103.

Needs more Qoutes Agian? just say the word.

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Quite simply because the Palestinean terrorists USE innocent civilians as shields. An action that they have been condemned for by the the U.N. as well.
Yes , like the family hiding in their house when the Israelis come to bulldoze it. Do you see any other armyies of the world firing explosive weapons into a crowded area such as market places and busy intersections recklessly.
BTW I sick and tired trying to justify the Pal while you sit their and dismiss every valid point with no proof. Why don't you give me some good things the Isrealis did to try to end this war?
moif
campbejm

QUOTE
The difference between invading Germany and the Israel situation is that Israel is a nation that was founded by Jews who were moved from Europe to a British colony by the British. There was no hostile invasion.


I disagree.

Tens of thousands of people arrive in a region, none of whom have any connecton to it within the previous ten thousand years. They disregard the native population, who have resided in the region since the fall fo the Roman empire, they kill and massacre entire village's pushing aside the natives to make way for their own settlements, and impose their own laws upon the region.

Israel was founded and exists by terrorism

You may choose to describe the foundation of a state over an existing region as what you like. But as far as I am concerned, your justifications ring as hollow as those used by the Germans to annex their neighbours.

In short, to the disposessed, the justifications of the aggressor make no difference.

The Palestinians were living in their land, along came the Israeli's, backed by the US via Britain and the UN, and the Palestinians no longer had their state.

The only difference between Germany then and Israel now is that today, America sides with Israel.

Perhaps if Hitler had had a powerful lobby in the gvernment of the USA, he might even have won the second world war!

editted for spelling
Billy Jean
Motif,
Jews lived in Israel and had a nation a little over 2,000 years ago when the Roman Empire dispersed them. Palestinians have been occupying the land ever since then. The Jews have been given an opportunity through the UK,UN and the US to resettle their homeland. Their presence there is a FACT immediately before the Roman take over and they even have records of the Jewish hiarchy. The Israeli nation is long over due. For the last two thousand years Jews have been persecuted, murdered, exiled and shuffled around. If there is one mandate of the UN, that is to take care of those who have been subjugated to brutality. No other people (except for Native Americans) are more deserving of a homeland than the Jews.

Your attempts to villianize them in the same light of Hitler and the Nazis is a slap in the face to the countless families and victims of the holocaust. dry.gif
Dontreadonme
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The Palestinians were living in their land, along came the Israeli's, backed by the US via Britain and the UN, and the Palestinians no longer had their state.

The palestinians NEVER had a state, and didn't even consider themselves palestinians until the exodus of european jews who added to the jewish population already living in the British Mandate.
QUOTE
Tens of thousands of people arrive in a region, none of whom have any connecton to it within the previous ten thousand years.

Try closer to two thousand years.
QUOTE
1.) Look at UN Resolution 242 & 338
UN Security Council Resolution 242 was adopted unanimously on November 22nd 1967 after the Arab-Israeli war in June 1967. It calls on Israel to withdraw its military forces to the boundaries prior to that war, thus, to return all Palestinian territories it occupied by force.

Surely you must mean Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian or Egyptian territories. Let's have a bit of intellectual honesty here please. No matter how tight you squeeze your eyes and wish there was a state of palestine simply sitting there minding it's own business when the big bad Jews came along, it simply isn't true. All of the land that is in dispute was originally owned by the above mentioned ARAB countries, who by the way, did nothing to accommodate the so called palestinians either. Why does no one hold them accountable for anything? Jordan comprises 80% of what was the British Mandate (called by some, Palestine). Oh no, it's ALL the Israeli's fault. Now we're even comparing them to Hitler's Germany.....reeeeaaal classy. thumbsup.gif
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Needs more Qoutes Agian? just say the word.

No thank you, I could just as easily quote arabs who call for pushing Israel into the sea. I choose to debate by more than trading quotes from other people.
moif
Billy Jean

My mothers family were/ are European Jews, and a good proportion of them were killed during the holocaust.

I do not need to be told by any one else what this means. Had I been alive in those days, I also would have been forced to flee or be deported to an extermination camp.
And I have walked the alleys of Auswitz and stood in the chill of the gas chamber there. I know as good as any one born in 1969 what it means to be Jewish!

But none of that excuses what has been done in the name of the holocaust ever since.


None of that excuses the foundation of a calculating foundation of a state over the homeland of a people and their lands over a thousand years old!

Judea was lost in ancient history, and nothing justifies its return if that return means thousands of people (Palestinians) must die to make way for it.


DTM

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The palestinians NEVER had a state, and didn't even consider themselves palestinians until the exodus of european jews who added to the jewish population already living in the British Mandate.


So what???

They were people, living in their homes and on their family lands for over a thousand years. What does it matter what that land was called?

It certainly was not a 'Jewish homeland'.
Dontreadonme
QUOTE
So what???

They were people, living in their homes and on their family lands for over a thousand years. What does it matter what that land was called?

It certainly was not a 'Jewish homeland'.


Agreed....in recent history anyway.
My contention is that neither was it a palestinian homeland. It was a region comprised of many differing ethnicities centered around village or bedouin life, and owing allegiance in name only to several empires and colonizing nations over the last two thousand years.
Billy Jean
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So what???


So what?! It matters alot! If they didn't have a government and were just a wayward people living there then they had no claims to the land! That's what!

I don't want to get into family history with you. I'm sorry your family was killed during the holocaust and you of all people should understand why it is so important that Israel is defended.
THE WORLD TURNED A BLIND EYE TO WHAT HAPPENED TO THE JEWS IN GERMANY. Even today, some people try to put a spin on the events and say it either wasn't as bad as people say or that it didn't happen at all. Do people just not care that some SIX MILLION Jews were exterminated? Does no one other than the UK and the US see the plight of the Jews as a worthy endevure? Let the other Muslim nations support the Palestinians, because God knows none of them would lend a kind hand to Israel. As stated by Dontreadonme, the Muslims occupy 95% of the region and are obstinate towards the Palestinians...why? huh.gif
Rev_DelFuego
So your telling me that The UN gives the Isrealis the right to slaughter and uproot the natives that were born their, simply because they were slaughtered during World War 2. Just because they were killed they should be able to kill who ever they want. Sure they were there 2000 years ago but do any of them remember ever living there prior to the British Mandate. There were only Three settlements prior to 1948.
And to defend those quotes, most of those are from PM of Isreal and clearly show that the intention of Israel is to displace the arab population in W.Bank and Gaza. As far as the other nation helping, don't you think they tried. The US has vetoed every single attempt!
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