I was in class the other day, bored as usual, so I began to look for something to occupy my mind for awhile. Fortunately, one of my classmates sitting right in front of me had worn a shirt that day that had a very interesting bit of writing. Now, granted, it was probably written for the purpose of doing just what it did to me, and that was to annoy and otherwise stir up controversy, but it got me thinking anyway. Here's what was written on the shirt, which was made by a brand called "Dalinkwent Klik™":



Obviously, this shirt has more to say than 95% of people who look at it will have time or patience to read, but I copied it down because I think it provides an insight into how black people look at themselves and how sad I find it. Yes, the "we" and "us" from the shirt are undoubtedly referring to blacks in general. The shirt was also littered with drawings of angry-looking black people.

So, knowing how I responded initially to this little rant, which I am sure some of you found nothing wrong with whatsoever , the word "racist" is probably floating around in the heads of a few of you. Nothing could be further from the truth. For the most part, there is nothing wrong with it. It speaks of goals to excel, staying out of jail, ending violence, reducing drug usage and eliminating the trade, reducing poverty, and ending self pity. All very important and progressive goals worth pursuing, in my opinion. But, there's a problem. The rest of the statement is all about how "the Man" is trying, or has tried, to keep "us" down. Let's start with stanza #2, where it speaks of "raising the nation". Given the general attitude with which this statement is given, I don't think that this is meant to imply a peaceful "raising", as in "raising to new heights". Stanza #4, it speaks of "somebody tryin' to kill us all". This is a summation of a general malaise, I think, that blacks (and other minorities, possibly) feel like somebody (namely whites or the Government or whatever) is always out to get them. Then there's the unfounded accusations of government officials being drug addicts and the idea that every bad situation that occurs to a black person is a result of racist feeling towards them. It's all one big conspiracy, according to this statement . How do you explain the fact that the black middle class is the fastest growing class in America?

Basically, I want to know what you think about this whole thing. I don't think that this kind of attitude is progressive at all, for anyone. As long as we keep playing the blame game and hang on to old paranoid notions, then no progress can be made. Just look at my signature.

I also want to know what you think should be done for the future. This sort of sentiment isn't going to just go away, and it's being introduced to a new generation of young blacks apparently. It's creating an angry generation where it is not necessary. Progress is being halted and, in some cases, reversed. But nobody seems to have a problem, apparently.

Well its an excellent poem, and being a poem it will have the biases of the writer. I do agree with some of what you summize I have to say I stop after your talk of the man. The man is the government that created jim crow laws and did not allow women to vote until the 1920's. The man is real, you are just a chosen one so you do not see the dirty hands.

I understand your criticism I am just trying to give show you the perception of the writer. Because, in your criticism you failed to do so.

When the writer talk about there leaders boozing and drugging up, that is not completely unfounded in both the leaders of many black communities as well as national politicians.

I think the line about national leaders selling drugs for millions can be explained with the CIA....

All in all, as he might not be completely justified in his/her poem. I think it is an excellent one.

Monty

I like both posts, which are by thoughtful people with good points of view. I am a white European with a black African wife. She came to live in Europe for the first time a year ago. Prejudice is more common than we whites realise, and emerges unexpectedly and hurtfully. Paranoia about whites in general, while maybe understandable, doesn't help. I suppose my wife can largely escape such paranoia, because she's married to me and knows plenty of friendly whites because of me. Also she works and is not economically disadvantaged. Some blacks in America may be trapped in deprived situations, maybe because of their own actions, maybe not. However the tendency of most people undergoing stress is to look for someone to blame - India's Hindus regularly scapegoat and attack Muslims, and Northern Ireland's British Protestants regularly scapegoat and attack Irish Catholics, despite the fact that as majorities in both these states they largely control their own destinies. However blacks are a minority in America, and it is therefore easier (and maybe more justifiable?) for them to blame whites for their problems. Also there are always politicians of all descriptions who profit from such feelings.

ConservativeTeenExtraordinaire... you and I belong to, basically, the same generation. We were *lucky* enough to grow up in a time where tolerance and even appreciation are the acceptable public opinion and not the other way around.

However, it was only decades ago that a lot of civil rights issues were beginning to be not only addressed, but eventually starting to resolved.

America has made some great strides that as a citizen I can be proud of. Yes, we had slaves, but we released them. Yes, we had Jim Crow laws, but our government abolished them. The "European Collective" has willingly begun to accept blacks for who they are: Real People.

I am also lucky because I was raised in an accepting house hold; my father (a white man) was alive during and took part in the Civil Rights movement and has been an active participant of the ongoing movement we still have today.

We are closer to equality than we have ever been before but there are still many, many issues facing black people in this country. Racial profiling, affirmative action (whether you are for or against it, it is an issue) and poverty. Many blacks (I refuse to use the term African-American. They are Americans. Period.) have furthered their places in life by leaps and bounds never dreamed of as recently as the 1950's. I have never listened to MLK's "I Have A Dream" speech without getting chills. Even thinking about it makes me a bit teary.

But, again, it wasn't so long ago that that kid sitting in front of you wouldn't have even been allowed in the same classroom. I remember as a little kid being told at summer camp not to use drinking fountains after black people.

Those racist elements still exist in our society, and to an extent "the man" is still keeping a lot of the black population down. Ever been to the ghetto? I'm in college now and for the moment this is all I can afford. It's, frankly, frightening. I have been here less than a year and already have had my life threatened in, of all things, a CAR CHASE, a break-in (while I was in the home, no less!), another theft, wires behind my house cut and a murder about a street down. I can't even imagine what it's like for those who grow up here... it's like an indirect form of ethnic cleansing.

But, in closing, enjoy those rose-colored glasses while you can; the real world will hit you soon.

Think about what you just said. Does anything in your explanation of "the Man" indicate that he *is* real? I realize full well that "the Man" *was* real, but I see no evidence of this presence today. There may be a case for saying that the legacy of the influence that "the Man" had still lingers today, but those who hold to this belief are exactly the problem, in my opinion. These people introduce the ideas to new generations, spreading the anger of another time and place to people of the present, whereas they would not acquire such anger otherwise. I can fully understand the reason for wanting a scapegoat to place the bulk of the very heavy problems that still face much of black America upon. I just don't think it's constructive, and it could prove to be destructive if left to fester. There must be an end to pointing the finger if we are ever to move forward, together, to real results.

xgeographyx: Gee, I am so glad we have enlightened people like yourself to inform us and remove "those rose-colored glasses" for us. Can't imagine what I would have done otherwise. Why don't you come down off your high horse and we'll debate, eh?

For your information, since I know you assumed the contrary, I go to school in what is, more or less, the ghetto. The vast majority of students at my school are black, and I drive to and from school through the ghetto every day. News of students being killed is not uncommon. I know FULL well about which you speak. So much for rose-colored glasses, eh? You might have noticed in my first post that I said the following...



I am not criticizing the dreams and aspirations of the black lower class, but rather the fact that these goals are haltered by pointing the finger. So-called "black leaders" like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton don't help in this matter, as they always seem quick to do this pointing of the finger in almost any case involving a black person. They purport, basically, that everything that harms a black person is somehow racially motivated, including poverty, unemployment, jail time, death, the entire spectrum. Only when we can stop this pointless bickering and "race-mongering", if you will, can we actually make any progress, just like I responded to Monty's post. Race-consciousness is not the way to go, but the way we were in the days of "the Man". That's why I can't seem to understand the desire of many to keep programs like Affirmative Action in play.

In closing, I think that too much is made of the time. For example, xgeographyx, you say it was *only* decades ago that civil rights movements were taking place. SO much can (and has) take(n) place in that amount of time. It really isn't as hard as you make it out to be. But, like I have said twice in this post already because it is so important, only when we stop playing the blame game can we even start to meet the goals set forth by such great minds as Martin Luther King, Jr. He dreamed of a nation where people would be judged by their character and NOT by their race. The dream lives on.

There needs to be an end to racism on both sides. Yes, maybe there are still people who were forced to the back of the bus in the 50s, but that age is gone, people need to let it go. The problem is that far too many of the old stereotypes are being passed on to the next generation and the next and the next... and where does it end? When is enough, enough?

There simply is no more institutionalized racism in America. Are there racist PEOPLE? Absolutely, but racism is no longer part of the law of the land, accepted by the majority of people, supported by the legal system, etc. It's gone. It's time to stop making excuses and start working to be equal in all ways.

Actually, first off I was debating and second I did not mean that as an insult. I would love to be wearing those rose-colored glasses right now.

You have also completely ignored the section of my post where I said we have made incredible and admirable amounts of progress but to say that racism towards blacks is only in their heads is a fallacy. It is not as widespread but those elements do still exist.

And to Cephus, yes that age is gone. However, racism is still to an extent institutionalized. Not by much, but, as I said, to an extent it still is. That age may be gone but not long gone. Also, I do not deny that racism towards whites exists. I have seen it and been on the receiving end of it, as well, and that is also a problem.

Yes, we have come a long way, but the point I am trying to make is that just because racial relations are better in this country than they have ever been and for the most part there is no institutionalized racism that doesn't mean we need to stop now in the tending to those old wounds.

Sorry, xgeographyx, I overreacted slightly. But, your assumption that my opinion only comes as a result of some lack of a clear vision (due to your eloquently titled "rose-colored glasses") was unfair. It implies an ignorance that I do not possess, but is commonly attributed to those who share opinions like mine. However, I do apologize for overreacting .

Continuing, I did NOT ignore the part of your post where you acknowledge the accomplishments in race relations in past years. I did, however, realize that you obviously do not feel that enough has been done to call it "over with". Like Cephus, I believe that institutionalized racism is a relic of the past (unless you count Affirmative Action ) and that was the major obstacle. There will always be racist people, I think, but they are vastly outweighed by those who have seen that nothing constructive can ever come from this mindset. I can't really think of a better analogy, but it's kinda like chasing down the last few ants after the anthill has already been destroyed. It's pointless and time-consuming.

I want to hear how you feel institutional racism still exists. I have a feeling that you're going to say something about the court system . I'll save comment until you say what you want to say. Also, how are we "tending to old wounds"? Race-conscious policies such as Affirmative Action only serve to keep those wounds open, if you really think about it. To mar the achievements of minorities by giving them assistance that others didn't receive, simply because they are a certain color, would be rather hurtful, I would imagine. That's just the effect it has on minorities. It's not helping anyone, and instead of healing old wounds, it's actually creating new ones.

No, I apologize, I worded it wrong and reading back I can see how it would come off as condescending. But, in any case, I did not mean it as to say your views and those who share those views are ignorant... more like idealistic or optimistic, which isn't a bad thing! If everyone was idealistic/optimistic we wouldn't even have to debate this issue.



And for the most part, I agree. I think Affirmative Action *is* institutionalized racism, but I don't know just how I feel about it. On the one hand it is insulting to say that blacks can't get jobs on their own but on the other you have to question if there are so many racists in positions of power that would not hire black workers without it. But, anyways, I am derailing this... back to institutionalized racism. Besides affirmative action (whether you are for or against it it is based in racism) I would consider racial profiling and "prowling" laws to be examples of institutionalized racism.

(some links:
http://www.fair.org/extra/9809/media-blackface.html
http://racerelations.about.com/cs/racialprofiling/
)



To that I would agree.


Nope, I wasn't, but maybe I should look into that.


As far as healing old wounds, I didn't mean affirmative action and my feelings on that are above.

When I was a little kid my best friend was black. His dad was a university Professor, a very smart guy. Where we different because he was black? It never crossed my mind. It does cross the minds of a lot of people in America. Go watch a football game, there are two commercials for Dr. Pepper, one in a bowling alley with only blonde white people and one in an alley with only black people. American culture conditions everyone to think that blacks and whites are somehow magically different. Is a white man responsible if he believes it? Yes. Is a black man responsible as well? Just as much. Talking about either side believing the stereotypes is never the whole story. There is no race issue that can be reduced to one side's fault. It's hard for some people to see how the problem of race extends not only to equal legal rights and a low level of racism. Considering the other side black or white before human is just as dangerous as racism. It leads to divisions in society. What we all must move forward to is forgetting about race and living just as in the words of Peter Tosh "one people". The only society where we will be free from hate is one where we see we are all brothers and sisters. If you want a poem about racial relations look at the song "One Foundation".

Rockefeller Drug Laws... Ever hear of them? No? Let me inform you, In New York State we have the Rockefeller Drug laws. Which allows cops to racially profile. Something like 80% of drug users are white in the United States. Yet 99% of the people in prison for drug use and sale in New York are black. Does that seem disapporiante to anyone but me? There are still racial problems they just aren't big news anymore.

You say you go to a ghetto school. Why don't you open your eyes and see the problems these people face. Why don't you get off your high horse.

Monty

The problems addressed in this poem would most easily be "fixed" if we had equality in the education system. We don't. Poor schools in "urban" areas don't suck because of the students in them, they suck because the funding is horrendous, teachers are more worried about paying bills than teaching (at least in AZ, where teacher pay is incredibly low, dreadful!), parents are worried about feeding their kids (education comes secondary to survival), etc. I attended a "ghetto" high school as well...I was one of the 10% of white students at my school (55% Mexican, 30% Black, 5% "other") and while my mother always did everything in her power to teach my sister and I to be open-minded and to expose us to "different" cultures/ideas, actually being right there as a minority, you certainly grow to appreciate some of the struggles of the "oppressed" classes. As such, you can appreciate the fact that the rich white kids' school up the street has brand new editions of textbooks each year, nice desks that aren't falling apart, a cafeteria with edible food (ours was absolutely DISGUSTING), and will likely have a better "shot" in life as a result of their family's status and educational opportunities that follow.

What does this have to do with "the man", etc.? Well, "the man" is something I personally consider real (to an extent) and many, many people I know have had their share of encounters with "the man" that lead me to believe that "he" is still very much alive. "The man" has an impact upon the opportunities that are readily available to different people. The existence of "the man" would certainly be less of an impact if minority/lower class students were afforded the same educational opportunities (on the whole) as white/upper class kids. Granted, my own school had a HUGE budget for its special magnet programs (which were designed as a result of desegregation laws...they had to "bus" white people in and the only way to attract them was to create special "area specific" programs of study called magnets) and a minimal budget for things relating to the "regular" students. The magnets were only available to white students out of district (non-white out of district students were RARELY accepted because the whole point was to get more white kids in). In district students were rarely accepted into magnets (gotta save the spots for the desegregating white kids), so the unfairness and inequality of opportunity was VERY evident within my own school.

As far as things being "in the past" (an argument I hear a lot from many members of AD with respect to racism) Civil Rights movements didn't just magically wipe out all of the ills of racism when they were finally realized. Just like when you elect a new President, he (or hopefully, one day she) will inherit the problems that were already there (new leadership doesn't start with a clean slate), racism was still alive after Civil Rights and the like. Just because we can't actually SEE discrimination, doesn't mean it's not there. Schools aren't equal, and it all starts with education. Poor kids drop out of school because they have to help feed their struggling families, so they don't get complete educations and the cycle continues until someone is in the right circumstances to change it. I can't tell you how many of my non-white high school friends were first generation college-bound (and subsequently graduated).

Are there faults on the part of the people who are being "oppressed" by "the man"? Certainly. But one cannot place the blame on either side entirely. People do learn to have expectations based upon past actions. My mother doesn't trust cops (I'm talking automatically) because she was harassed by one in NJ AND one in AZ (and I mean REALLY harrassed, the AZ cop in particular...he followed her around the neighborhood and stopped her whenever he tought she was alone). Is that distrust valid? To her it is because of her experiences (coupled with my Mexican stepfather's experience with police as a Mexican in AZ...). Does she blame cops for her problems in life? No. But she is certainly cautious to be too trusting.

And Monty, there is a thread here (though it hasn't been addressed in a while) relating to Drug Sentencing Laws: Racism in the Criminal Justice System

Rancid Uncle, I agree. We need to just come together and work out the issues as a united people. As soon as we start seeing things eye to eye, the answers to many problems will come much more easily.

Monty, beg pardon, but do you actually think that crackheads are going to participate in a survey? I mean, you just cannot accurately determine how many people use drugs and what race/gender/etc. they are. While the Rockefeller situation does seem disproportionate, this is an exception, not a rule (assuming the stats are correct, which I am hard-pressed not to believe). You have joined the ranks of those who have misunderstood what I meant. I DO go to a "ghetto" school and have acknowledged on *several* occasions the problems that face lower class citizens, in particular the black lower class. My eyes are wide open. I did, however, say that I think progress in eliminating these problems is haltered by people worrying more about the causes of the problems and placing blame than the problems themselves.

We need to stop making NEW wounds! The only institutionalized racism in America today is affirmative action, otherwise there isn't a single instance of institutional racism that I can find anywhere. Where does it stop? Where do we finally get to say "It's in the past, time to move on?" People are still crying about slavery, 150 years and several generations after it ended. Nobody who is alive today, or their parents, or their grandparents, were ever slaves. Enough already.

The problem with saying that it's time to call a halt and move on from institutionalized racism, such as affirmative action, is this: the black population still suffer from the effects of the three hundred years or so of institutionalized racism that was inflicted on them. When they were liberated, first from slavery in 1865 and then from discriminatory laws in the 1960s, they had to start from the BOTTOM, in their own country, as if they were immigrants. But it was even worse for them, since many immigrants arrived with good educations and maybe some money, while the vast majority of the black population had neither. Also they were BLACK - it was easy to single them out, whereas Irish, Jewish, German and Italian immigrants were indistinguishable after one generation., and could carry on with their daily lives in a way blacks couldn't. I accept all the arguments about black trouble-makers exploiting feelings of resentment, and some black individuals excusing their personal failure by blaming racism, but this doesn't alter the facts that blacks in general got a very raw deal and were a disadvantaged community, that racism is still very real, and that their feelings of resentment do have a cause.

That is utter nonsense. Not one person in the US has been a slave in over 175 years. Not one. You can't find one black person alive today who was ever a slave, ever knew a slave, ever SAW a slave. The time for the "we were slaves" nonsense is over, period.

As far as discrimination, yes it is true that they were discriminated against, but likewise, that sort of open discrimination ended 40 years ago. Most people who are still flying the discrimination flag never lived through it. It's all an excuse, a way to thumb your nose at people. It's also highly hypocritical. "We got screwed, so now we're going to screw you over to get back at you." No thanks.

Time to stop whining and start working. Minorities have never had it better than they do today. If they want to be equal, they need to be equal. Trying to reverse the conditions and get a head start at the expense of others is wrong, no matter what the skin color is.

KMSouthern,

Agree completely with your post. However, I think you failed to notice something....



Nothing in any of these situations, as you state, has anything to do with race. It is all about economic conditions. And, if you are in those conditions, regardless of the race you belong to (say, isn't it all the human race?), you suffer the consequences. No one saves you just because you're white, and the man isn't making it happen to you just because you're black.

Slavery ended 138 years ago, so actually, 175 years ago the vast majority of black people in the US were slaves.





1. Think about the word "open."

2. I'd love to know how white people are possibly being "screwed over" by The Black People.



That a way! Throw 'em a bone! Those ungrateful bastards should be thanking us for what they've got!

From the tone of your posts, a person unfamiliar with our nation might easily assume that our present-day society is one in which blacks are in power, lording discriminatory policies over a decent, yet sorely mistreated white people. Yeah. Tell that to all the black Senators.

Cephus, perhaps it's

To an extent I agree, however poverty is something that is typically a cyclical thing. I think it DOES have to do with race because blacks started out with NOTHING when tehy were finally freed. They were promised things like the oft-mentioned 40 acres and a mule...did they see it? Heck no. I can only begin to imagine what it must have been like to try to find work in such crazy times with the emotions on "both" sides. "Black schools" not 40 years ago, were most certainly separate and unequal. It's a lot to ask of a society to be able to magically erase those educational barriers and inequties and presume that race isn't and wasn't an issue.

Of course class/income has more of a direct impact these days, but to say that it has nothing to do with race is, as I see it, not looking at the bigger picture.

If the views of Cephus and Conservativeteenextraordinaire are any indication it's young white males who labor under the misguided illusion that because they don't see any evidence of racism it no longer exists. So they whine racism is over because THEY are the only ones capable of deciding what is racism and what is not.

Yeah, sure.

Yesterday, I attended a press conference held by the Ohio Civil Rights Commission. They were launching an investigation against an individual who had placed the following ad on a white supremacist website:

Sales/Management/HR Position Sought

"Racially Conscious, Master-Degreed White Male with Human Resource Director experience seeks position where he can think non-P.C. thoughts. Also hold ordination papers. Cleveland, Ohio area, but will highly consider relocation."

The job seeker made one mistake. The Ohio Revised Code Section 4112.02(F) forbids a person seeking employment in the State of Ohio to publish an ad that specifies race, color and sex, and that expresses a preference as to the race, color and sex of a prospective employer.

The website (and no, I won't provide a link) has the motto, "No Jews, Just Right" and advertises itself as "the premier source for pro-White news and original opinion." The site features nauseatingly repellent attacks against Jews, blacks, gays and lesbians and others. One printable example of the typical racial hatred practiced on the site asks, "What improves by adding Mexicans? Not even the town dump. If you can tell the difference."

There are two things that are dead easy to find on the Internet. Porn and hate web sites. So, I've gotta laugh when Cephus and CTE pop off about how there's no discrimination holding blacks, Jews, gays and other groups back. I'd have to say anyone making such an assertion is just badly informed. Whether by accident or on purpose, I can only guess.

Racism still exists and it's not always the subtle spit-in-your-soup kind. It doesn't have to be as overtly vicious as chaining and dragging a black man to his death as James Byrd was in 2000 in Jasper, Texas.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNew...imes980611.html

But it's still pretty blatant as evidenced as the Monopoly rip-off "game" called Ghettopoly.

http://www.ghettopoly.com/

It will be far easier to believe Cephus and CTE have the vaguest idea what they are talking about when they can tell me what their solution is to the Aryan Nations, Council of Conservative Citizens, Hammerskin Nation, World Church of the Creator, National Alliance, Nazi Low Riders and the Militia of Montana. Or perhaps they can tell me how to ignore the hatred of a Richard Barrett, Lous Beam, David Duke, Bo Gritz, Tom Metzger, Pet Peters, Ernst Zundel, Matt Hale, Willis Carto and
Jared Taylor.

It's hard to move forward when there are always bigots who want to hold you back.

When Cephus and CTE have read The Turner Diaries or listened to White Power music groups like Skrewdriver, maybe then I'll believe they have the slightest understanding how enduring and persistent racism is. Until then, all Cephus and CTE represent are unsupported opinions absent of any facts to support them.

There is no question racism still exists. There is also no question that human beings, of all colors, have a natural inclination to blame others for their misfortune. The question is when youth of any color get mixed messages on what they can accomplish how seriously does it effect them? If a child is told on one hand to work hard and he can succeed, but also told that the establishment will stand in his way, what choices will that child make when pursuing his education?

I moved my brown son to a school district where there were less brown peers telling him that the reason for his poor grades was not his poor study habits or his poor classroom behavior, but due to widespread discrimination by the faculty.

When you look at the statistics what you find is the main factor that seperates the fates of black vs. white children is the preponderance of single parent homes in the black community.

Actually, it has been fairly and objectively studied by law enforcement and treatment centers, the CDC and others, there is no argument that whites in America make up the far and majority of drug users, simply because we are the majority. And it is also a little more complex as well. White drug users tend to sell thier drugs in thier houses, or domiciles, and blacks tend to sell thiers more openly, say in gang related activity or street corners. For a police officer, which do you think takes more resources to bust? Viola' -you have a lot more black drug dealers going to jail than white drug dealers, no matter what the demograph of the surrounding area.

Where you're making the mistake is confusing individual racists with institutionalized racism. There will always be morons out there who are racist on both sides of the coin. There are just as many black racists as there are white racists as there are hispanic racists, etc. Just because one person puts an ad on a white supremicist website doesn't prove that all blacks face racism every day, that whole concept is utterly ludicrous.

The notion that "there are as many black racists as there are white racists" would be quaint if it weren't so totally nonsensical. The contention that blacks have somehow reached "parity" with whites in being racist is sheer lunacy.

When it comes to the practice of prejudice blacks are merely apt pupils in comparison to the grandmasters status of white racists.

You can't find anything approaching an equivalent number of black organized hate groups, racist individuals and web sites in comparison to those I mentioned in my previous post.

You may have dreamed up this notion that blacks are just as practiced at racism as whites Cephus, but as usual you're producing a lot more opinion than supportive evidence.

But black organized hate groups do exist nighttimer and if you look at the number of them (groups counted in 2002 was 82) in comparison to population, it's probably close percentage wise.

http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/index.html

I don't think we can ever end racism but if we are going to reach some utopia with regards to race we all need to discuss the matter civily. You're not always going to like or agree what I have to say about the issue, nor I you, but dismissing an opinion isn't productive. Finding a way to change that opinion should be the goal.

I believe that this statement is quite false.

First, let's have us a look at who is out there organizing. I looked first for evidence of Black racist organizations. Well of course there is the "New Black Panther Party," and Nation of Islam. It's hard to find any more. I did google searches with various criteria. There is the African Hebrew Israelites, but their black supremacy is more an inherent part of their philosophy, and you would be hard pressed to find actual "anti-white" content on their web site.

When it comes to organized groups of white racists, there's no shortage. The Anti-Defamation League has a good overview of these groups
here.

I think, and I am sorry to say this, that your statement is quite naive. I know you mean well, and I respect you, but whatever has happened to bring you to this place where you are, does not reflect reality on this matter. The admitted vitriol of Minister Farrakhan is nothing compared to the vile filth spilling off of web pages that made me sick to look through (and I won't even post them here).

One of the problems with a statement like yours is that there is no good definition of racist. Too you, everyone who thinks that black people aren't on a level playing field yet might be racist - I don't know. Is everyone who supports affirmative action a racist? What about whites who support it? How would you have to twist what it means to be racist in order to come up with your statement?

Indeed, you have erred in two ways, really. One, when you say that there is a level playing field, and two, when you say that there is essentially a "level playing field" of hatred and racism. Both are untrue.

All opinions should be respected Belladonna to the extent they have some foundation in reason, fact and logic. When they are devoid of those factors I have no problem disregarding them as bereft of intellectual merit. I don't weigh all opinions equally. The source of the opinion expressed is important and carries considerable weight whether I take them seriously or not.

Insofar as being authoritative figures on the state of racism in America, I have no problem saying I don't consider Conservativeteenextraordinaire or Cephus to be two people whose views on the matter carry much credibility.

I never said that there weren't black separatist, supremacist, anti-white organizations Belladonna. What I said was there is no parity between white racist groups and black racist groups. And while you link to the Southern Poverty Law Center's list of separatist black organizations (most of which are Nation of Islam chapters), you omit a key phrase in the SPLC's description:

Black separatists typically oppose integration and racial intermarriage, and they want separate institutions -- or even a separate nation -- for blacks. Most forms of black separatism are strongly anti-white and anti-Semitic, and a number of religious versions assert that blacks -- not Jews -- are the Biblical "chosen people" of God.

Although the Southern Poverty Law Center recognizes that much black racism in America is, at least in part, a response to centuries of white racism, it believes racism must be exposed in all its forms. White groups espousing beliefs similar to Black Separatists would be considered clearly racist. The same criterion should be applied to all groups regardless of their color.

The Nation of Islam is anti-white, anti-Semitic and anti-gay in its rhetoric. However, I have yet to find an example of a Black Muslim engaged in a act of violence directed toward a white Jewish homosexual. Their rhetoric is repugnant and a lot of their beliefs are wacky (white people were created in a lab by a evil scientist?), but to try and compare the NOI to the KKK is trying to make a comparison in equivalent racism that doesn't pass the stress test.

I'm all for civility Belladonna, but trying to reach a rapprochement with people who not only don't acknowledge racism exists, but dub you paranoid if you do, is a waste of both precious time and energy.

"Dismissing an opinion isn't productive" unless the opinion expressed is unproductive.

I can’t find any post where Cephus or CTE, said they were experts at the subject of race or racism. I also don’t think Cephus literally meant that the number of black racist were equal to the number of white racist. Yes, his sentence said that, and if you wish to take it literally you can and perhaps Cephus will think about sentence structure next time so he won’t be a target again but I think he meant it in more general terms. I am not here to defend Cephus or CTE though.

I realize you didn’t say there weren’t black hate groups and I never meant to imply otherwise. I only tried to show that compared to the overall population there may be some parity.

And while I agree with you wholeheartedly that white organized hate groups have committed far more brutal violence to black families and that this was an accepted practice in this country at one time, it isn’t anymore. These groups are shunned by a majority of the populace. Their hate speech is condemned and our government has put laws in place that makes it a higher offense to commit a crime based on race. We as a society have stated loud and clear that this is not acceptable and you will be punished to the fullest extent of the law when you participate in these activities. We as a society has placed a program in place to make sure minorities are given the opportunity to excel. We as a country desire to have a society where race DOESN’T matter.

I also agree that black racism in America is, at least in part, a response to centuries of white racism, as cited by the Southern Poverty Law Center. I didn’t leave that information out on purpose.

I doubt anyone can find many instances of Black Muslims acting violently toward white Jewish homosexuals. That would be tough criteria of which to extract data. But, if you look at Black on White violence you get a very different picture.

Based on information provided by The U.S. Justice Department:



Now, I am not stating that all of these crimes are hate crimes – that is, crimes based on the person’s skin color, but I am stating that this is something we must enter as part of the overall equation. Murdering someone has to involve some hate. The person who was murder is not “more dead” just because someone hated the color of their skin nor are they “less dead” because someone didn’t hate the color of their skin.

What I can’t understand is if blacks are committing 7.5 times more violent inter-racial crimes than whites, why are whites charged with “hate crimes” twice as often as blacks.

I personally believe we hear more about white on black “hate crime” than we do the opposite.

An example is the information about James Byrd you gave a few posts back. I doubt that anyone here wasn’t familiar with that story. It was a brutal racist act and it received nationwide coverage.

Have any of you ever heard of Ken Tillery?



As I stated earlier, I personally believe we hear more about white on black “hate crime” than we do the opposite. Here’s why:

It feeds the pocketbooks of those…

…who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro-race before the pubic. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown in to the settled habit of advertising their wrongs – partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. Booker T. Washington

Edited to take an extra word out of the above quote.

Yes, and we all know that blacks faced little discrimination in Booker's era.

In regards to the statistics you have used, Beladonna, I do not see them supporting any sort of racially motivated influence, rather the contrary.

If you take a white criminal and he commits a violent crime without regard to race, he will be seven times more likely to do so against a white as there are seven times as many white targets as black. If a black criminal commits a violent crime regardless to his victim's race, he will be seven times more likely to do so against a white. With the premise that race is a non factor in victim selection, the results would be that black on white crime would be seven times as high as white on black. Your data seems to support that race is a non factor in victim selection.

Unfortunately, it isn't lunacy. There are plenty of blacks who hate whites just because they are whites and plenty more who think whites are "out to get them". Just because you don't want to see reality doesn't mean reality isn't there.

Beladonna writes:


By percentage, I'd say that there are just as many racists on the US on both sides, especially when you look at how many blacks support racist policies like affirmative action. I don't think there is any question whatsoever that a much larger percentage of blacks consider race an incredibly important part of their lives, compared to whites. Most whites don't care about skin color, don't run around making skin color an issue or an identity. Blacks do and that's racist.

Gray Seal,

I think you have a good point. Most black against white crime could be happenstance.

Let's look at little closer at some data.

[QUOTE]Preliminary figures show 7,947 hate crime incidents were reported to the FBI during 1995. The incidents were reported by more than 9,500 law enforcement agencies in 45 states and the District of Columbia. Participating agencies covered 75 percent of the U.S. population.

Sixty-one percent of the incidents were motivated by racial bias; 16 percent by religious bias; 13 percent by sexual-orientation bias; and 10 percent by ethnicity/national origin bias. The 7,947 incidents involved 9,895 separate offenses, 10,469 victims, and 8,433 known offenders.

Among the 8,433 known offenders reported to be associated with hate crime incidents, 59 percent were white, and 27 percent were black.[/QUOTE]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm

I suppose the other 73% could be happenstance. But murders, like the one I described earlier, where the similarities are almost identical, aren't treated the same. Tillery's killers weren't charged with hate crimes. Byrd's were.

Another case that makes the skin crawl is been named, The Witchita Massacre. A Google search will bring back information on these murders. Two brothers broke into the home of three young men who were hosting two female guests. They raped the girls repeatedly, beat the men viciously. Then they drove the five people to a deserted soccer field, forced them to kneel in the snow and shot each of them in the back of the head. Prosecutors said the brothers then drove a truck over the four dead bodies. One of the women survived. They weren't charged with a hate crime either.

There are inconsistencies in the way we apply hate crime legislation to these crimes. That is unfair. That could be described as discrimination.

I read your posts Cephus and have to laugh at the consistent way you state opinion as if it is fact.

By percentage, I'd say that there are just as many racists on the US on both sides, especially when you look at how many blacks support racist policies like affirmative action.

1. What percentage? How about one example to back up the bluster? Just once for a change? Sure you'd say "there are just as many racists on both sides."
However, as the population of the United States currently stands at 292 million people and blacks make up only 36.7 million or 13 percent of the population, please explain HOW there can possibly be one-on-one parity between white and black racism. http://www.census.gov/

2. ...blacks support racist policies like affirmative action.

That's a laugh. White people also support affirmative action which I guess makes them racist as well---including the majority of the Supreme Court which recently upheld the practice as constitutional.

Public opinion polls suggest that the majority of Americans support affirmative action, especially when the polls avoid an all-or-none choice between affirmative action as it currently exists and no affirmative action whatsoever (see Table 1). For example, a Time/CNN poll found that 80% of the public felt "affirmative action programs for minorities and women should be continued at some level" (Roper Center for Public Opinion, 1995a). What the public opposes are quotas, set-asides, and "reverse discrimination."

affirmative action programs have spanned nine different presidential administrations -- six Republican and three Democratic. Although the originating document of affirmative action was President Lyndon Johnson's Executive Order 11246, the policy was significantly expanded in 1969 by President Richard Nixon and then Secretary of Labor George Schultz. President George Bush also enthusiastically signed the Civil Rights Act of 1991, which formally endorsed the principle of affirmative action. Thus, affirmative action has traditionally enjoyed the support of Republicans as well as Democrats.

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/read...cles/affirm.htm

3. I don't think there is any question whatsoever that a much larger percentage of blacks consider race an incredibly important part of their lives, compared to whites. Most whites don't care about skin color, don't run around making skin color an issue or an identity. Blacks do and that's racist.

It's clear to me Cephus you don't have a clue what racism is. Not only are you totally unqualified to speak to what is on the mind of black people, you can't speak with any degree of authority to what most whites think either.

"One of the more interesting hallmarks of white conservatives is the amount of energy they expend attacking policies intended to aid blacks."
--- Andrew Hacker/TWO NATIONS: Black & White, separate, hostile, unequal

"The whites and the blacks are place in the situation of tow foreign communities. These two races are fastened to each other without intermingling; and they are unable to separate entirely or to combine."

--- Alexis De Tocqueville

Here's a generalization. A really broad and sweeping generalization and I don't usually like generalizations, but Cephus wallows in them, so here's one from the novelist Pearl Cleage.

"In discussion of race between black people and white people, the conscious black person is always right; is always the ultimate authority on questions having to do with race and racism; must always be regarded as the 'injured party,' or the oppressed. The reason for this is obvious. It is in the best interest of white people to keep black people oppressed. They cannot possibly be expected to be objective about questions of race and should therefore adopt a listening, not a speaking posture."

--- Pearl Cleage/DEALS WITH THE DEVIL (and other reasons to riot)

An honest discussion about race and racism tends to emotionally intense and discussions between whites and blacks are particularly charged. However, I can not and will not entertain the notion that white racism is dead and gone while black racism has supplanted it in malevolence.

Nighttimer- you sense of frustration is coming out loud and clear, and it makes me kick back with a slightly bitter laugh and head shake. I think the whole "black racism" is nothing more that a hopeful copeout by conservatives in order to keep the status quo.

What status quo are you referring to CR? The status quo where conservatives don't pander to a block of voters with lip service yet do nothing substantial to solve the problems facing that community? Talk about a blatant, uncalled for drive by assault on conservatives. That same statement with the word liberals inserted would bring howls of protest calling it an unfair generalization painted with a broad brush. I don't know what saddens me more, that you made the statement, or that nobody else had yet called you on it.

If ignorance is bliss, then hypocrisy must be euphoria, as they are both running rampant on this board. nighttimer, I really can't understand what makes you think that you're any more qualified to make opinions than Cephus, because you're doing exactly what you accuse him of doing wrong. Sure, you include a few snide little quotes from authors of the extreme left (which don't help to prove anything, except the clear bias of information in this area), but you end up doing nothing more than what you discredit Cephus for.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or, if nighttimer's quote from Pearl Cleage be believed, a black person) to understand racism and the problems that arise as a result of it. Typicalities, like those that blacks are the classic recievers of racism and that whites are the classic racists are not helpful. The point of this entire thread was to point out, as Belladonna did quite well, that institutionalized racism, except for Affirmative Action, is extinct. Racist groups are frowned upon moreso than any other brand of group in this nation, and laws against hate crimes are extreme. So many provisions have been made to protect minorities and yet it still does not seem to be enough. Thus, it occurred to me that a certain element is missing, or is at least in short supply. On this, I formed my opinion, based also on things that you have to be blind not to notice, that minorities are all too quick to point fingers and list off their problems then actually take the extended hand and make progress. A certain amount of work is involved in this, so it leads me to believe that, instead of doing that, minorities would rather have programs like Affirmative Action give them the advantage they are supposedly lacking on a silver platter before working towards eliminating the need for such programs. This, I state, only in the lack of evidence to the contrary.

Racism is not the terrible beast it once was: a state-supported, almost universal policy that kept blacks from doing anything productive in their own lives. Today, blacks can do anything their white brothers and sisters can, and the stubborn remnants of the racist past are of no consequence to this. Again, I must stress that America was founded to give each citizen "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", not happiness itself. Everybody has this opportunity now, so I question the need for a) programs like Affirmative Action and b) the continued self-imaging of blacks as an "oppressed race".

Oh, nighttimer, this is all about opinions. You've given no indication that you know anything more about the topic than anyone else, so please restrain your criticisms. Not only do they take away from your argument, but they stray from what we are ultimately talking about. Disagree with my opinion, that's fine. But attack me and say that I have no right to opine in the first place, that's just uncalled for.