First off. Nobody, and I mean nobody, should try to dictate their morality on me. That's called oppression. A vegetarian has no right to tell me I can't eat a good steak dinner.

Health issues? Prostitution should be the starting point for cryin' out loud. Most of the ladies do have families. And with no health insurance, if their child gets sick the child is S.O.L.

And communicable diseases? How many of the folks here have had to run and get a shot because some food preparer contracted Hepatitis. (Geeez, I'm starting to think flippin them burgers is more dangerous then we realize! ). What about office enviroments. Bacteria and germs constantly being recirculated in these little bee-hive cubicles of ours. Construction workers face death everyday also.

Point is, EVERY occupation has its health issues. Why not allow these people access to health care too. Take care of those in our homeland first!

There done venting. Back to grindstone.

I find it interesting that there's a strong representation of conservatives from the hobby. I think people would be surprised at how diverse the community really is. I have a friend that is a democratic politician and he believes this is a liberal issue. I believe there is an equal number of conservative participants in the community and that it is comprised of people of many beliefs and opinions.

I'm running late for work, I'll come back and address other things that I find interesting later.

Thanks for coming Weasel, Herc and CC!

(Weasel, I'll be over "your way" later today! This board just side-tracked me a little bit but I didn't forget!)

Just for the record, Eva, I work for the a police department in a relatively large city and I am involved in these vice stings. And holding cells would still be used if Prositiution was legal. . .there are other crimes out there other than the one you participate in. I will admit that a good portion of the prostitutes I book are streetwalkers, none-the-less when I look at them and hear their stories. . .I don't see an empowered woman choosing to use her body for profit, they look and act like slaves. And when I book their "johns" I don't see hobbyists and when they talk, I don't hear men with a deep respect for these women and the services they provide, they talk about women like they are objects same as anything else that can be purchased.

I also want to state that I do not have a morality issue with this crime. If I want to, I'll pick up a guy and have sex with him. . .I have no moral issue with this. I don't feel "The MAN" is restraining me from having sex with whoever I choose. I simply feel that no orifice of my body or anyone else's can be treated as a product to be bought and sold. . .or rented to be a little more realistic.

I want to also say that I completely respect cyan's views on this topic, it just seems a little idealistic to me and I feel that in reality it would not be so simple. Eva, I also want to admit that is sounds to me that you have a much more professional set up going, than the prostitutes I see everyday, it doesn't sound nearly as degrading as what I see. . .you really do appear to have control of your encounters. And I want to admit that my views on this topic are, of course, biased do to my profession; and maybe if some of you saw that same terrible things everyday, like I do, you would feel differently, too.

-Kisov

Kisov --

Thank you for coming back into the thread. I've been waiting for your opinion because I realized you were in law enforcement from reading your first post in this thread.

Let me just clarify that I never stated that I participate in the profession being discussed.



I completely respect your opinion. Although I can't possibly be totally aware of the terrible things you see everyday, I do have an idea and I respect the demanding, complicated tasks of your profession.

Did you check out the link to Danzine I provided earlier? Click on the "history" page and you'll see that the streetwalker issues are something some people in the community take very seriously and are actively trying to make a positive difference.

Completely taking the moral aspect out of this for a moment. If you could know for a fact that legalization would help improve the terrible things you see everyday, would you support it? I'm not saying we can for a fact improve it, I'm just asking "if" it could be done to improve society, would you support it? Remember, take the moral aspect out of the answer to this question.



I know. I was merely trying to reference the costs involved in bringing someone in can't possibly cover the fine; therefore, saving money. Raising the fine won't solve the problem either. It would only cause people to take a stronger stand on legalization.

I only brought this up because everyone is asking "How do we pay for this." Even if there are no cost savings on the law enforcement side, the industry could easily pay for itself anyway.



I respect your opinion and fully support your right to NOT do something with your body. The mere fact that money passes hands confuses me - always has. I'd seriously like to discuss the morality issue with you -- in the exact context above along with the context of your fully supporting someone has a right to do it without money.

I would assume you believe it's wrong that people are legally permitted to be paid to have sex if it's in front of a camera. Existing laws have actually proven that the moral aspect can't be considered or it would be illegal to participate in the production of porn.

Do you also have a problem with someone being paid for blood donations at the Blood Bank?

Do you have a problem with someone being paid to carry a baby that isn't theirs in their womb for another couple?

Do you have a problem with someone selling their hair to a wig company?

If anyone can think of other scenarios where someone is paid to do something with their body, please chime in.

I completely understand if this absolutely is morally revolting to you even if you admit that it doesn't logically make sense. It's a very valid feeling to be against something for no other reason than you don't like it. But is it right for everyone to be required to live under laws that are your moral standards and not theirs? Or can you accept it being legal similar to someone being totally against gun ownership but it's legal in our society to do so? (This is not a good comparison but for lack of a better imagination right now, I think it gets my point across slightly. I'll be thrilled for someone else to come up with a better comparison.)



(I'm answering this assuming your references to "you" were in the form of "you understood" -- as reference to a group and not a specific person.)

I'm glad our discussing this on an open forum has been beneficial to seeing another aspect of this community in a better light. I want you to know that the community does care about the issues that you care about. The community wants a better reputation and wants to help those that are not as fortunate in the community because they realize that is part of the reputation, part of their indirect health risks and part just the right thing to do.

More grassroots efforts would form if people weren't afraid to come forward to help the people in the streets as equals. The need to remain annonymous hinders people from being able to join law enforcement to address the street issues.

Having sex isn't a problem. Paying for sex is. And gov't having to pay for the santiation of it is a disgrace. We need to concentrate on defense, not helping out prostitutes.

CP

I can respect that you feel that way, but there are people who don't. Again, this is all morally relative.



It is probable that the industry could support itself, and many ideas regarding a workable structure, which would not reduce tax payer money have been presented.



Yes, we should be focused on defense, but last time I checked, the government served more than one function.

If you feel that way, why don't you concentrate your postings on "defense threads" instead of this topic thread?

Right now it's priority is national security. Not sex.

CP

How many times do I have to point out that we're not talking about doing this in the near future? We're just discussing it for intellectual stimulation and to learn.

"Having sex isn't a problem. Paying for sex is. "

Why? Sex (whether free or paid for) has the same issues that we are talking about. HIV doesn't care if you paid for it or not. You can get STD's whether money exchanges hands or not.

Taking a dip into the physchology and getting a little off topic.... Words relating to this profession have included "demeaning, degrading, low self esteem, etc." What gives you (the public) the right to tell me how I should feel about my own body?

B

Having our gov't help pay for the leaglization of prostitution will make it a joke, taking money from anything else that our country needs and putting towards prostitution is a joke.

CP

Conservpat, this is less about sex, IMO, and more about the personal freedom of people to use their bodies as they see fit. It is a discussion about regulating an already proliferating industry.

We've already stated that the industry will pay for itself.

"Having our gov't help pay for the leaglization of prostitution will make it a joke, taking money from anything else that our country needs and putting towards prostitution is a joke."


Some people felt that way about abortion too. Some people feel that way about the space program. Legalizing will be a step towards the solution instead of adding to the problem. Isn't the government about helping its people?

Umm...I'm going to try to explain this again, because I feel like maybe I'm not getting my point across effectively or I'm not understanding yours. If done right, prostitution could be legalized without taking away money from anything else in our country.

I would add that legalization and the subsequent regulation would actually ADD to the coffers of government.

Many providers do not pay tax on thier entire income... no surprise, considering. Regulation would help to indentify those who are not paying their taxes. Does anyone not think that the IRS would target this industry for cheaters?

Another increase to revenue would be in the form of sales tax. I cannot believe that any state and/or local government would not require a sales tax or luxury tax to be levied on the service.

A high tax it would be too! It most certainly would be a luxury tax similar to alcohol and tobacco. The government would enjoy lots of new money!

By the way, Concerned Citizen, I'm glad you came forth with some statistics in your previous post. Although I am in the know, I am at a loss when it comes to providing any statistics -- as most people would be discussing this topic.

I also want to thank you for sharing how the hobbyist has also formed an alliance to self-regulate the industry -- similar to the providers alliance. It's important for people to understand that this is a community that truly does try to self-regulate and actually is quite successful to an extent.

And, indeed, could generate revenue - a great deal of revenue. For a hawk, the legalization of prostitution should make perfect sense: lots more money to fund all those expensive wars that our current administration has in mind! Cool!


Oh - I forgot the "morality" issue! I suppose our moral guardians here would find it way too immoral to use all those acts of love to fund all those acts of death and destruction. Right?

Thanks, Kisov. I respect your views, as well, and I think that having many different sides of the argument, participating respectfully in this debate is very beneficial.

BTW...That's not the first time I've been called idealistic. We need a good combination of idealism and realism, IMO to keep things running smoothly and to progress in a positive manner.

I agree!

I learn many things and gain new ideas from opposing opinions.

First, Kisov, I wish to thank you for your service to your community.

Now, my question is…. would your time as a police officer be better spent (only in your opinion) working on crimes that are more pressing. Crimes such as rape, murder, drug trafficking, etc.

I wholeheartedly agree about the streetwalker. There are some very sad stories.

I worked in the hotel business for many years, and I saw everything from the high-class companion to the street-walker. I would point out, however, that very rarely did we have any problems with the high-class companion.

I would also point out that the majority of the problems we did have were with the guys that “ran” the prostitutes. They were a vile bunch that ruled with violence. They were similar to slave brokers. That is exactly where we would like to see tougher enforcement. Slavery, in any form, is despicable.

However, if you take the time to learn about this industry, you will find that the majority of its participants are not on the street. Instead, they are normal people who, if you were to meet them, you would be friends.

The customer that frequents a street walker is most times not the same guy that frequents other venues within this industry. There are exceptions, but it is more rare than one might think. If, however, the act of streetwalking were a crime, but prostitution were not illegal, I think you would see a drop in the incident of street walking. Not completely do away with it, but it would be reduced.

I will agree that it is a matter of CHOICE. It is, and always should be, the provider’s choice as to whether to participate in the industry or not. There is a saying amongst the ladies that goes something like… “I choose who, what, how much, or IF….” In addition, there is a universally held belief that if a lady wishes to exit the biz; wish her well and ask for no explanation. It is her choice…. Always.

It really is simple to make the law. It is also simple to decriminalize it through the court system. However, the devil is always in the details (the regulation). The regulation will be the toughest part of this equation, as evidenced by a lack of consensus, even amongst the providers and hobbyists.

IMO, the main reason for lack of consensus, however, is due to a lack of effective leadership (read as trade association). The reason for lack of leadership is obvious…. It is an illegal act and to advocate would open one up for charges under the RICO Act (which has been used on several occasions to quash those who were willing to challenge the state cases in court, namely in Florida)

Legalization would help assure that every lady had better control over her encounters. She would not be intimidated about reporting a crime (such as assault). She would not have the fear of being arrested after she reports that another perpetrated a crime on her.

I have seen some of what you speak. I have cleaned up hotel rooms that were locations of violent and vicious crimes. Each time I did so, I became more and more convinced that legalization was the correct way to go.

Thinking that morality-based laws will stop prostitution has been tried by many major civilizations. The fact remains that it is not stopped, just driven underground to be regulated by those who have less-than-honorable intentions (reference Prohibition).

Sorry about the successive posts, but it is difficult to keep up! What can I say; I type slow!!

Unfortunately, the only statistics that I can quote are from empirical data. Perhaps, someday, there will be more accurate data available. If the politicians realized just how much money were involved, I am sure that they would be more willing to have a logical discussion about it! LOL

Thanks Eva.

It is important for those involved in this debate to realize that a provider’s supreme downfall is having an accusation of unsafe practices levied against her (in the escort world). Hobbyists run away from her very quickly. Two reasons for this.

First, if a hobbyist is at all concerned about his health, he runs…. enough said.

Second, if a hobbyist is suspected of frequenting a provider who acts in an unsafe manner, he will be unable to schedule with many of the other providers. The good providers will not schedule with someone who, in their opinion, presents an inordinate risk.

It's true. Many providers will not see a client that they know frequents a provider who is known for practicing unsafely. Guys get blacklisted all the time. We do need to be realistic that there are hobbyists out there that simply don't see risks and try to pressure providers into performing unsafe acts.

It's nice to hear some guys blacklist providers for unsafe practices. I've only seen them "run out of town" for providing poor service. The provider population does put pressure on the unsafe providers within their abilities. I assure you that if the industry was legalized, many providers would report providers they knew were providing unsafe services.



I don't think there'd even be a discussion!!!!!!! Just joking, of course they'd discuss it

When I do estimates based on the limited information available, the numbers are incredible. I'm sure my analysis is only a fraction of the industry volume. This industry can support its governmental costs plus provide more money for other things. I simply can't even enter into another debate out "Who should pay for this" or "The government shouldn't put funds towards" because it's just obvious that this can be legalized without being a financial burden on the people.

As I have stated earlier. . .



So this is not a moral issue for me. And of course legalization would cut down on the prositiutes/johns I see everyday. . .. . .because it wouldn't be illegal. And how exactly would it "improve society". . .so we can have little girls tell their first grade class what mommie does for the right price on career day, how comfortable would anyone be hearing from a small child that they want to be just like that mommie when they grow up. . .can anyone actually see the future of this country getting to that point where it is perfectly acceptable for a child to want that, or for a mother to want that future for her child. What if there were no age of consent and children were considered sexual beings (as some seem to believe), would it then be ok to have a children's brothel and they can be paid with candy. . .why not. . .it is their body and their choice after all. I'm getting a little off topic, but I brought this up to demonstrate that this profession is not like any other profession, and treat it as such is quite naive.



Do you honestly think that someone giving blood for $20 and someone giving a BJ for $20 is that same thing? One is possibly saving someone's life the other is merely facilitating ejaculation.



One is bring a new life into this world for a couple that desperately wants a family and can't have one buy conventional methods. . .the other is nothing nearly as admirable.



Hair grows back. . .I wonder if the streetwalkers pride grows back nearly as easily?

-Kisov

It appears as if you wouldn't have a problem with legalization of this industry if you answered yes to the questions. All questions represented someone selling or renting a part of their body. The reason is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned for legalization.






Sorry I edited out pricing because I felt it was inappropriate after the fact.

Evidently you haven't talked to the Streetwalkers on Colfax Ave. in Denver. . .they are not nearly as high priced.

Why is it necessary for a child to know the exact nature of the job? There are many kids who don't know exactly what their parents do for a living. Prostitutes are just as capable of making a decision as to what their children should and should not be exposed to as anyone else is.



No, it is not just like any other profession, but that doesn't mean that it's a negative profession. There are many fields out there that are similar in nature such as porn and exotic dancing, but those are legal. We are talking about consenting adults.

We're not only discussing the streetwalkers.



Our society permits many other types of entertainment that aren't as nobel as saving a life.

The argument of “protecting children” has been made on almost every topic to gain political leverage. The phrase most often used is “for the children”. I would argue that the argument is being used a bit much in many debates, and in the process, is trivializing the importance of children’s true issues.

Professional debates go both ways. Would you advocate allowing a child to participate in the taking down of a murder suspect? For that matter, would you advocate that a new graduate from a police academy (one who had training) be allowed to spearhead a multi-state investigation? Of course not. The argument that children would be hurt by legalization is specious at best. No one in his or her right mind is advocating a child participating in this profession, just as no one is advocating a child in a law enforcement capacity.


At the risk of sounding chivalrous, I must say that I am truly saddened by the pulp-fiction portrayal that society has of this profession.

Small story. I was the manager-on-duty one evening when a man came into the bar of the hotel. He profiled as a potential suicide risk by two people trained to detect such (hotels are a popular place for people to commit suicide, so we trained our staffs accordingly). I asked a “bar-lady” friend of mine to talk with him while I watched him for other indications of potential harmful behaviors. She sat there for 4 hours, just talking to this guy. Later, after he left, I spoke with her. She indicated that he had left his family and was contemplating suicide. She was able to discuss this with him and make him realize that he was not the “ugly” guy that he thought he was. She was able, in that short time frame, to allow him to see the fault in his logic.

Could anyone else have done this? Sure. In hindsight, could it have been handled better on my part? Sure. Bottom line; She DID handle the situation with no expectation of compensation from me (although she would have had every right to do so). That evening she decided to explore psychology as a field of study. She graduated cum-laude and has a successful psychology practice. I am still friends with her and we correspond on a regular basis. And she does still work as a provider on a part-time basis. The guy? He was later to be featured in the paper as a participant in a life saving event. I made contact with him to congratulate him. He remembered that evening in the hotel bar and thanked me in the most gracious manner.

Still think this is not an “admirable profession”? Maybe not, but to that guy, it is.

Pride? I will admit that some providers are not proud of what they do. I can also state that many are very proud of what they do. Pride is a relative concept. There are people in many, if not all, professions that are not proud of what they do for a living. Should we demean them for not being proud? I would debate that we should not.

Where was it ever stated that our government was going to be giving hand-outs and subsidising prostitution vs. defending our nation?

These ladies can VERY well take care of themselves. What they CAN'T do, is admit to what they do. Loan applications, insurance forms etc. Being able to legally state their profession (Which I believe is the main jist of this discussion) will open up all kinds of doors for everyone.

Kisov, kudos to you. You have stated your opinions in a very civilized way. Your input is very insightful. But I believe you only see a very small part of the industry and that part is the dark side (Just like any industry). I doubt you would EVER see any of the ladies who don't walk the streets and are the good eggs of this industry. They stay low-key and out-of-site. They have higher moral standards then most.

It's very sad, indeed.  I wish someone opposed to this issue could have directly addressed Devereaux's question quoted below.







I doubt she would see them as a police officer; however, I'd like to point out that she could easily be friends with or related to someone in this industry and not even know it.



I'm having a problem with this issue tonight. I'm more emotional about it since the moralities aspect has been brought into it. I'm glad that there are some people on here with legal experience because I'm having problems separating my emotions from my responses today. I usually try to keep that from happening but today I'm simply can't accomplish it effectively.

Eva, don't let it get to you, consider the source.

For what it's worth I consider you to be a very intelligent and articulate person and I've never even met you.

And I agree. As I said, the ladies I've met are all your typical average women.

Hercules, what exactly do you mean by "consider the source"? Is my opinion and experience somehow not reputable in your mind?

-Kisov

What do you mean by this

I know Herc well enough to know that his comment was intended to reassure me and treat me kindly -- not to insult someone else. It's not his nature.


I'm still waiting for someone to address Devereaux's previous question.

She stated.....


Kisco -- Do you have a problem with answering Devereaux's question?

Furthermore, why is it okay for people on this board to be concerned by a slight comment, made by Herc about the opposition in general, but it seems to not be important to make Devereaux feel better about comments being made about her position in this?

I'd really like an answer to this because if this board only protects the "feelings" of one side, then I'm on the wrong board.

Kisov, I've already said Kudos to you. No one here should take my comment personally.

I do mean the overall "Moral" majority that likes to look down their noses at those they deem unworthy. And as I stated several times before, until the stereo-typing of prostitues is broken, many will.......

Sorry folks, this thread needs to be closed.

Ten pages deep and open for 103 days, it has really run its course.

It can be revisited in the future.

Mike