Full Version: Do "human rights" mean something?
Situation in Baltic States (Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania) is horrible. Baltics violate even the most basic human rights of its citizens. Let's take Latvia for example. Latvian national ideology is neo-nazism. They build memorials for LATVIAN NAZI SS CORPS! All Soviet WW2-heroes, who liberated Latvia from Nazism, are classified as "criminals". Latvia initiated series of SHOW TRIALS, accusing Soviet war heroes in "crime" of fighting Latvian Nazi forces.
But that is not all. Non-native Latvians (Russians and people from other parts of ex-USSR), which form more than half of population, DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHTS AT ALL, they are considered "non-citizens". Not only they do not have any rights, but Latvia opressess them. For example, Latvian leaders try to BAN RUSSIAN LANGUAGE and BAN RUSSIAN SCHOOLS. Soon, speaking Russian will be considered crime. Such things happen not only in Latvia, but in entire Baltic region.
On other hand, Baltic States are strongly pro-American. They want American bases to be placed in their territory. Why do neonazis need American bases on their territory? BECAUSE THEY PANICALLY AFRAID OF RUSSIA!
And now the worst. Limonov's party activists (members of Russian NBP party) initiated series of actions toward protecting opressed part of population in Baltic States, mostly in Latvia. And imagine what happens? RUSSIAN SECRET POLICE (FSB) KINDNAPS NBP ACTIVISTS AND SEND THEM TO LATVIAN AUTHORITIES, WHICH INITIATED SHOW-TRIAL AND SENTENCED THEM TO 10-20 YEARS OF PRISON!
Is THAT Putin calls "protecting interests of Russians"?
The funniest thing is that both Russian and international "human rights protectors" DON'T CARE ABOUT REPRESSIONS TOWARDS RUSSIANS IN BALTIC STATES (as well as in Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Middle Asia)!
In other words, I want to say that "human rights" is myth and political chimera. Liberals talk about "human rights" only when interests of their class or group of interest is concerned, they don't care about common people - and, also, all liberals are infected with very strong form of russophobia.
That's my point. And here's my questions.
Should Baltic neo-nazis be punished for violated of human rights or should they be rewarded for helping America?
Do "human rights" mean something or is it just a mask to hide double-standarts?
But that is not all. Non-native Latvians (Russians and people from other parts of ex-USSR), which form more than half of population, DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHTS AT ALL, they are considered "non-citizens". Not only they do not have any rights, but Latvia opressess them. For example, Latvian leaders try to BAN RUSSIAN LANGUAGE and BAN RUSSIAN SCHOOLS. Soon, speaking Russian will be considered crime. Such things happen not only in Latvia, but in entire Baltic region.
On other hand, Baltic States are strongly pro-American. They want American bases to be placed in their territory. Why do neonazis need American bases on their territory? BECAUSE THEY PANICALLY AFRAID OF RUSSIA!
And now the worst. Limonov's party activists (members of Russian NBP party) initiated series of actions toward protecting opressed part of population in Baltic States, mostly in Latvia. And imagine what happens? RUSSIAN SECRET POLICE (FSB) KINDNAPS NBP ACTIVISTS AND SEND THEM TO LATVIAN AUTHORITIES, WHICH INITIATED SHOW-TRIAL AND SENTENCED THEM TO 10-20 YEARS OF PRISON!
Is THAT Putin calls "protecting interests of Russians"?
The funniest thing is that both Russian and international "human rights protectors" DON'T CARE ABOUT REPRESSIONS TOWARDS RUSSIANS IN BALTIC STATES (as well as in Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Middle Asia)!
In other words, I want to say that "human rights" is myth and political chimera. Liberals talk about "human rights" only when interests of their class or group of interest is concerned, they don't care about common people - and, also, all liberals are infected with very strong form of russophobia.
That's my point. And here's my questions.
Should Baltic neo-nazis be punished for violated of human rights or should they be rewarded for helping America?
Do "human rights" mean something or is it just a mask to hide double-standarts?
Well, first off that does not sound very good at all, the situation that is. One could imagine something like this was to occur with the collective fall of the soviet union though, at least i do. I don’t know if liberals are as you see them on the human rights issue, i mean its "human rights" not selective human rights. Though some humans will complain of a double standard when not allowed to spew racist terms or be bigots in general.
I do know that the cold war itself left a touch on American culture, we have various movies and a generation that lived with it, so i am sure that it is still alive somewhere in the collective conscious to say the least, after all we still have people in America that hate communists in any form, i myself do not like communism, but i do like dem socialism, something i will not go into here. I still would imagine the idea of living under the possibility of nuke battle would leave a stain to say the least, what was it, something like enough nuke to kill the planet nine times over, like wow you know.
I would like to know more about your russiaphobia you speak off that you think liberals carry, i don’t read into any particular slate or agenda to much myself, so if you could enlighten me on this i would appreciate it.
I do know that the cold war itself left a touch on American culture, we have various movies and a generation that lived with it, so i am sure that it is still alive somewhere in the collective conscious to say the least, after all we still have people in America that hate communists in any form, i myself do not like communism, but i do like dem socialism, something i will not go into here. I still would imagine the idea of living under the possibility of nuke battle would leave a stain to say the least, what was it, something like enough nuke to kill the planet nine times over, like wow you know.
I would like to know more about your russiaphobia you speak off that you think liberals carry, i don’t read into any particular slate or agenda to much myself, so if you could enlighten me on this i would appreciate it.
What goes around, comes around. Life ain't fair, get used to it.
Yes, Latvia is discriminating against ethnic Russians. It is no business of ours.
Yes, Latvia is discriminating against ethnic Russians. It is no business of ours.
Everything Engineer Kimov has said is true about the baltic states, I will vouch for that from both Lithuanians and Lativians and Russians I personally know who told me about this more than a year ago. (Alaska is a real heavy immigration area for former eastern bloc countries.)
I think he is correct, the US is big on human rights if they are against our interests, and ignore them if they are for our interests.
I think he is correct, the US is big on human rights if they are against our interests, and ignore them if they are for our interests.
Well of course, but where does that tie in with the liberal. That more or less is just what is going on in Iraq to a point, of course like i stated in numerous posts we are the selective "police force" but i still don’t see where that goes into the liberal idea. Liberals in America typically want to expand human rights issues and global situations related, that is why i have to take a year of foreign language in college. I don’t think we have ever really had a liberal leader, Clinton was close but he was no liberal, i guess one could use Jimmy Carter.
OK, here's my opinion.
First of all, when I say "liberals", I mean carriers of liberal democratic philosophy, not necessarily members of American Democratic Party.
Instinctive russophobia that liberals carry comes from simple fact: Russia never was, is not and will never be liberal country.
Russian Empire helped Americans much, even in times of American Civil War, but it was not a liberal country. 90% of population of Russian Empire lived in "OBSHINA" - collective communities, where rights of community were valued higher than rights of individuals. The rest 10% of population lived under opressive feudal regime, with secret police, Czar's control of all activities and stuff like that. Liberal thinkers hate Russian Empire.
Soviet Union was strongly non-liberal as well: in times of War Communism, in times of New Economic Policy, in times of Stalinism, in times of The Thaw, in times of Advanced Socialism, in times of The Stagnation. Only Perestroika and Glasnost brought Russian liberals out of underground.
Russian Federation is also a non-liberal state. Even though modern Russia is formally based on principles of Liberal Western Democracy, people of modern Russia HATE words "liberal", "west" and "democracy". Serious political parties in Russia stopped using such words, except for tiny marginal groups like "Liberal Russia", which do not have real influence.
Liberalism is alien to Russian culture, and many of famous Russian philosophers consider liberalism in all forms as main and only true enemy of Russia.
And because Russian culture is absolutely non-liberal, liberals (at least those I know about) hate Russian culture (even though they rarely say such things openly, but, hell, THEIR ACTIONS SPEAK FOR THEM).
Well, that is my humble opinion.
First of all, when I say "liberals", I mean carriers of liberal democratic philosophy, not necessarily members of American Democratic Party.
Instinctive russophobia that liberals carry comes from simple fact: Russia never was, is not and will never be liberal country.
Russian Empire helped Americans much, even in times of American Civil War, but it was not a liberal country. 90% of population of Russian Empire lived in "OBSHINA" - collective communities, where rights of community were valued higher than rights of individuals. The rest 10% of population lived under opressive feudal regime, with secret police, Czar's control of all activities and stuff like that. Liberal thinkers hate Russian Empire.
Soviet Union was strongly non-liberal as well: in times of War Communism, in times of New Economic Policy, in times of Stalinism, in times of The Thaw, in times of Advanced Socialism, in times of The Stagnation. Only Perestroika and Glasnost brought Russian liberals out of underground.
Russian Federation is also a non-liberal state. Even though modern Russia is formally based on principles of Liberal Western Democracy, people of modern Russia HATE words "liberal", "west" and "democracy". Serious political parties in Russia stopped using such words, except for tiny marginal groups like "Liberal Russia", which do not have real influence.
Liberalism is alien to Russian culture, and many of famous Russian philosophers consider liberalism in all forms as main and only true enemy of Russia.
And because Russian culture is absolutely non-liberal, liberals (at least those I know about) hate Russian culture (even though they rarely say such things openly, but, hell, THEIR ACTIONS SPEAK FOR THEM).
Well, that is my humble opinion.
Engineer Kimov- are you a supporter of Zhirinosky (spelling probably not right)- some of your views are very close to what I have read about him?
The subject though is the baltic states- I do think Engineer Kimov is correct- there are massive human rights violations going on there against ethnic Russians along the lines of the Bosnian thing, and America is convientaly ignoring this.
The subject though is the baltic states- I do think Engineer Kimov is correct- there are massive human rights violations going on there against ethnic Russians along the lines of the Bosnian thing, and America is convientaly ignoring this.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Oct 11 2003, 04:28 PM)
The subject though is the baltic states- I do think Engineer Kimov is correct- there are massive human rights violations going on there against ethnic Russians along the lines of the Bosnian thing, and America is convientaly ignoring this.
Why doesn't the UN do something?
The human rights violations in the Baltic states are a product of a thriving criminal element.
Human Rights Violations in the Baltic States
The human rights violations are a police problem that is generated by greed and vicious political ambition. For this to turn around the European Union has to find a way to enact legislation that they are prepared to enforce. When the ethnic conflict heated up in Bosnia it was the United States that intervened and we are learning in Iraq that soldiers make poor cops. There is a lack of moral concensus in these places and all the foreign aid in the world wont help that.
Liberal political philosophy is the idea of intensive reform and dramatic change. There is an emphasis on human development and it is a very pragmatic approach to morals and political systems. Liberalism in the U.S. is primarily focused on issues of race and womens issues, I think Lativa and the other Baltic could use some of that right now.
Russian's are typically very conservative for one reason, they have very little choice. When Russia in the final phase of Glasnost began to reform politically chaos insued. Liberals tend to be socalistic and secular in their orientation and they have that in common with Russia. I dare say that it is not entirely alien to Russian culture or maybe I don't understand what the term 'liberal' really means.
QUOTE
Failure to acknowledge the criminal threat earlier and develop the means to address it has retarded peacebuilding in Bosnia and Kosovo and is thwarting reform in Serbia. Various factors have been responsible for obscuring the international comprehension of this issue:
Conflict in the Balkans was defined in ethnic terms. Many atrocities, however, were motivated by wartime profiteering and plunder; irregular forces with roots in the criminal underworld played a leading role in this. ...
The nexus between crime and politics is maintained through concealed, informal networks that extend into the intelligence agencies, military establishments, and police services of the state, resulting in a high degree of impunity.
Conflict in the Balkans was defined in ethnic terms. Many atrocities, however, were motivated by wartime profiteering and plunder; irregular forces with roots in the criminal underworld played a leading role in this. ...
The nexus between crime and politics is maintained through concealed, informal networks that extend into the intelligence agencies, military establishments, and police services of the state, resulting in a high degree of impunity.
Human Rights Violations in the Baltic States
The human rights violations are a police problem that is generated by greed and vicious political ambition. For this to turn around the European Union has to find a way to enact legislation that they are prepared to enforce. When the ethnic conflict heated up in Bosnia it was the United States that intervened and we are learning in Iraq that soldiers make poor cops. There is a lack of moral concensus in these places and all the foreign aid in the world wont help that.
Liberal political philosophy is the idea of intensive reform and dramatic change. There is an emphasis on human development and it is a very pragmatic approach to morals and political systems. Liberalism in the U.S. is primarily focused on issues of race and womens issues, I think Lativa and the other Baltic could use some of that right now.
QUOTE
Liberalism is alien to Russian culture, and many of famous Russian philosophers consider liberalism in all forms as main and only true enemy of Russia.
Russian's are typically very conservative for one reason, they have very little choice. When Russia in the final phase of Glasnost began to reform politically chaos insued. Liberals tend to be socalistic and secular in their orientation and they have that in common with Russia. I dare say that it is not entirely alien to Russian culture or maybe I don't understand what the term 'liberal' really means.
QUOTE(Engineer Kimov @ Oct 11 2003, 05:05 PM)
Russian Empire helped Americans much, even in times of American Civil War, but it was not a liberal country. 90% of population of Russian Empire lived in "OBSHINA" - collective communities, where rights of community were valued higher than rights of individuals. The rest 10% of population lived under opressive feudal regime, with secret police, Czar's control of all activities and stuff like that. Liberal thinkers hate Russian Empire.
I believe Kimov is using the classical meaning of the term liberal. Classical liberals focused on individual freedom.Modern American liberals focus on placing the individual in chains.
This is not America's business. This is a job for Europe or the UN.
Let us try and keep stereotypes to a minimum, cowboys and indians are for fictional westerns.
Say infrastructure collapses like with the former ussr, that might leave a window open for such activates to take root, we already know that weapons from the former ussr flooded the black market, i am sure such problems share in this to a certain extent.
America needs to get back with the u.n, the acts that are going on today in my opinion are only driving the world backwards, yet another reason against the current u.s administration. The u.n helps the u.s and vice versa in many ways, and to me America has adopted some form of an iron curtain, which i hope is only temporary.
I think most any group of people such as the "liberal" has a spectrum of people in it, as i am sure there are religious people whom subscribe to liberal thought. I also don’t see the light in people lining up to be "put in chains" so to speak, more or less i do see the drive and need for change to occur in the human department, as we have elected leaders that form policy around living fortune cookies. These same people house the ability to use nukes and deploy armed forces. Not to mention a neat array of human suffering factors that we can learn from, but obviously the progressive meets the defensive, so what have you.
To try and keep a civil light about it, i see this debate as become clouded with other variables that is really keeping it from being a debate, i am not going to point any fingers as it is just the general world today taking its toll on the people whom occupy it.
I will say to know of problems like this, then to ignore them while calling yourself a champion of human rights is rather odd. Then again i never go for the whole hero thing, smells like a used car sales pitch.
Say infrastructure collapses like with the former ussr, that might leave a window open for such activates to take root, we already know that weapons from the former ussr flooded the black market, i am sure such problems share in this to a certain extent.
America needs to get back with the u.n, the acts that are going on today in my opinion are only driving the world backwards, yet another reason against the current u.s administration. The u.n helps the u.s and vice versa in many ways, and to me America has adopted some form of an iron curtain, which i hope is only temporary.
I think most any group of people such as the "liberal" has a spectrum of people in it, as i am sure there are religious people whom subscribe to liberal thought. I also don’t see the light in people lining up to be "put in chains" so to speak, more or less i do see the drive and need for change to occur in the human department, as we have elected leaders that form policy around living fortune cookies. These same people house the ability to use nukes and deploy armed forces. Not to mention a neat array of human suffering factors that we can learn from, but obviously the progressive meets the defensive, so what have you.
To try and keep a civil light about it, i see this debate as become clouded with other variables that is really keeping it from being a debate, i am not going to point any fingers as it is just the general world today taking its toll on the people whom occupy it.
I will say to know of problems like this, then to ignore them while calling yourself a champion of human rights is rather odd. Then again i never go for the whole hero thing, smells like a used car sales pitch.
QUOTE
In the USSR, philosophy for the first time in human history became the guiding principle of all economical, political, and cultural activities. The philosophy of dialectical and historical materialism played the role that in traditional societies belongs to mythology and religion. The Soviet ideocratic State was a unique experience in conceptualizing and philosophizing the entirety of reality, as a laboratory for the testing of general concepts. The cherished union of State and philosophy that since Plato's "The Republic" inspired major Western thinkers, including Thomas More and Hegel, was implemented` in Russia - and proved to be the most tyrannical force in history"The impact of Russian philosophy
The legacy of Russian materialism is evident in the human rights violations that followed in the wake of the Soviet Union and continue to this day. For human rights to have any meaning there has to be a moral consensus.
The Baltic states were under the Societ yoke for decades. Their nations were robbed from them and if they complained they were carted off to Siberia, or simply just disapeared in the woods one night...
Quite frankly I don't think any one from Russia has any right what so ever to point the finger at the Baltic states and cry foul.
At the moment, the Baltic states are in social turmoil, but they have been accepted in to the EU, and once membership takes hold, they will be forced by EU law to treat their citizens with respect and equal rights.
This is not a novel situation to the Baltic nations however. Just about every country which emerged from the Soviet Union has shown the same signs of extreme social degredation and an almost complete collapse of law.
If anything, this shows me that the Soviet Union, and the Russians who ran it, are guilty of crimes far, far in excess of what the Latvians and others are doing to try and regain control of their own nations!
Quite frankly I don't think any one from Russia has any right what so ever to point the finger at the Baltic states and cry foul.
At the moment, the Baltic states are in social turmoil, but they have been accepted in to the EU, and once membership takes hold, they will be forced by EU law to treat their citizens with respect and equal rights.
This is not a novel situation to the Baltic nations however. Just about every country which emerged from the Soviet Union has shown the same signs of extreme social degredation and an almost complete collapse of law.
If anything, this shows me that the Soviet Union, and the Russians who ran it, are guilty of crimes far, far in excess of what the Latvians and others are doing to try and regain control of their own nations!
Moif- you know very well that most of those ethnic Russians have been there for generations, and 99.99999% were sent there against thier will originally, and are as much as victims of the former Russian goverment as the Baltic states poeple. Very few Russian nationals that stayed had anything to do with the treatment of citizens in those states, and in fact are scapegoats of the prior regime.
The behavior of Stalin does not allow the baltic states to act like stalin, correct?
Moif, coming from the country you do, you should know this already LOL
The behavior of Stalin does not allow the baltic states to act like stalin, correct?
Moif, coming from the country you do, you should know this already LOL
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