Stemming from an enlightening conversation nighttimer and I were having in this thread: Racism or good-natured fun?, Ghettopoly the board game?, and not wanting to derail that thread, I have a new debate for us.

Debate Question:

Are the lyrics of some rap/hip-hop, that glorify gang-banging, drug dealing and the other actions that are stereotypically associated with the "ghetto," influencing our culture to any degree? Why or why not?

The answer is a definite yes. You'd be surprised just how many gullible people there are who actually take this garbage to heart(to a varying range of extents). Of course it isn't really the root problem, but that's another issue all together.

As to why, it is simply a matter of volume. Warped values (the type that many of the most popular of these songs) are common in society but modern media, music in particular, is giving them a more efficient media to be spread. Add in the attractiveness of this particular set of values (not the most complex ideas ) and the idea that is is the basis for what is socially acceptable among certain youth groups (varying in socio-economic level and race I might add) and you got a recipe for disaster.

Kids think what is described in the song if the way they are supposed to be (and when I say kids that includes young adults, my fellow college students for instance) either individually or when compounded by peer pressure. The result is usually poor behavior and an appallingly low communication level.
It's getting harder to find good conversation these days.

Good guestion....lets explore this shall we

First, much (well, lets say half) of rap is a reflection of what is going on in communities around the country. There are a large amount of people out there who understands what it is like to have nothing, be broke, and be to the point where selling drugs to "break-out" of the "ghetto" is an alternative. Notorious B.I.G. has a song called "juicy", you should read the lyrics to it...it really explains what a lot of young black men are going through. There are so many rappers out there are reaching a generation of people with no hope,letting them know that they can excell no matter what the circumstances that are stacked against them...it is a universal message for a person of any color.

But, there is a lot of money to be made in the music industry and there are artists that will say anything, do anything, and act anyway to make a buck . I don't think I honestly have to give examples but it is everywhere...just turn on your top 40 station.

So of course there are positive and negative influences in rap but who pushes these rappers...who puts them on the top 40 stations....the cover of Teen People? The record label execs that want to market to teenagers. $.50 (rapper) has a story from the streets of New York, where he was shot 9 times, and it is all in his music....but it is his right to get in front of a mic and give that message. But, is it his fault that he finds himself on the cover of magazines for teenagers when he says his message is for males 18-35? Blame the labels who make the "real" money, not the rappers.

Yes. I, first (Since it is a related topic) would like to give a link that shows "The Merchants of Cool" (A documentary done by PBS)

The Merchants of Cool

Out of all the documentaries I have ever seen, this one is my favorite.



Yes, it seems like in order to be "ghetto," you must know the right songs, wear the right clothes and speak the right language. People (teens) see this, apparently cool, style and want to be "ghetto." The music industry, closely allied with MTV, is willing to sell the image to teens. Everyone who sees the image glorified idealizes to be that image and soon become the "gang-banging, drug dealing" stereotypical ghetto person we see today (Brought to you by MTV).

I assume, however, that you are talking about the lyrics affecting the "moral fiber" of our culture, in which case my above explanation can clearly show how well our "morals" are doing.

I don't debate morals, but you're free to; thanks for asking. This is open to debate ANY pereceived effect on American culture.

I would say that they are, but that isn't necessarily true about everybody.

First, to kdubdub, I have to say that I strongly disagree with the notion that 50% of rap music today is aimed at giving a hopeful message to those who would not otherwise hear it, like youth living in the ghetto. I listen to rap music a lot, more than any other type of music except perhaps punk/emo, and I can say that the number of these type of songs has decreased over the years. Like nighttimer said in another thread, rap has strayed from socio-political messages to hardcore hate of other rappers and pimping. These messages, like all messages, fall more heavily or less heavily on different people based on how much they read into it, and it is often non-voluntary. Regardless, the messages of rap music are heard loud and clear by many people. Our culture is definitely influenced by it, though I wish it weren't true. I like the more powerful brand of rap music, which tends to be more vulgar, but I don't let myself read into it. Not everyone can do this, I guess, so the music will eventually have to be toned down eventually.

50% might have been a little hopefull. Mainstream rap (i.e. Jay-Z, Ludakris, 50 Cent...) it is definitely not but there is a strong under ground movenment of "concious" rap.

You pull up to a red light and first gradually, then suddenly everything starts to shake. Not drastically, but you can feel the reverb of a booming bass vibrating all the way to your kidneys. The music gets so loud it's drowning out that classic rock you were enjoying. You look around to see where that godawful noise is coming from and next to you is some kid in a SUV bobbing his head to the beat and singing (?) along to some near undecipherable lyrics.

It's rap music. LOUD rap music and the kind that's all about smoking fat blunts, big booty beeyotches and ganking some fool that's disrespected you.

And the driver is a white kid. That always makes me shake my head.

"If it's too loud, you're too old." Ever hear that one? Well it's true. Much of the appeal of gangsta rap lies in the fact that kids love music their parents hate. Always have and always will. There are few things that drive mom and dad nuts more than playing some really anti-social, scary music and gansta rap revels in being scary, anti-social music.

I was a huge fan of Public Enemy, but rap is a short term gig. Most rappers don't last ten years and if they do, they've probably fallen off as top acts. LL Cool J is one of the few "old timers" left, but most of his peers like Ice Cube, Ice-T and Queen Latifah have transitioned into movies and television. Will we see 50 Cent and OutKast on that same career path in another decade? Well, Eminem probably has more movies in his future than CD's and let's not forget Mark Wahlberg started off as Marky Mark before he became a leading man in Hollywood.

Most real gangsta rappers bailed out and learned some dance moves after 2-Pac and Biggie got smoked. Can't walk the red carpet on Oscar night if you're laying on a slab in the county morgue.

I am a big fan of rap- I was a DJ in clubs for years- and I am a big fan of Public enemy, Digital underground, Run DMC etc- and yes, it has evolved into something else. But like with cartoons, it is ultimately the upbringing of the child by the family that is truly the end all of this discussion- if you have values given to you by your family, you are not going to except the opposite from a CD!

I myself like rap, i don’t know so much about rap today, not for a change in what they sing about, but how most of the music sounds to my ear. People are open to their surroundings, its just i guess allowing for people to understand what they are listening to. Music and youth goes through changes, as there was the grunge age, youth of the fifties and so on, i don’t think its something you can just up and change, heck we even have Christian rappers. It’s just the taste of today for some people. I have listened to some of the hardest rap acts that exist, with much more foul messages then what have been listed here, and without a doubt i am still myself, and even hold doors open for people while such is in my walkman. Once again its just arming people with the ability to make responsible choices in regards to what they may put in their head so to speak. The same thing can be said of most anything in all respects.

Why rap has come under the scrutiny it has is nothing new, Judas Priest and Ozzy Osborne also had to go through such, along with various other acts. Then again we have the warning label and age requirement for such materials to be legally sold in society, so its not like a 6 year old can go and pick up a rap album just like that.

As for the music itself, for how much it has a base in reality, the record labels have used such along with rappers to produce and illusion like what happens within many music genres, its just been refined and kept sensitive to the current tastes, as to keep the market alive, which in itself makes millions of dollars for many people involved.

To just say it should be banned or something because it talks about some of the more horrid situations in this society is rather flawed, i don’t want to think how many young drunk girls get knocked up from to much country music and so on

As for rappers that go so far as to illicit hate or violence on their albums, such as go do this or go shoot someone. I do think such lyrics should be monitored for, and if the person wants to say put such lyrics on the album, i don’t see what you can do about it except regulate it with more warning labels, save the argument that can be made about freedom of speech. Then again maybe some people remember the public outcry against ice-t's cop killer album.

Agree...it IS up to the parents (just like with TV, movies, even commercials these days, anything else) to make sure that they are either not allowing their kids to listen or are countering the messages with positive messages. I think most kids would understand that MOST rap (and yeah, I'd know, I listen to LOTS and most is NOT mainstream like Biggie, Eminem, Nelly, etc.) is not glorifying the things they rap about, rather just putting it out there and letting you take in all that encompasses the sort of environment they grew up in.

I'll second whomever it was who said that half of the rap out there isn't glorifying this stuff...matter of fact, I'd put that number higher than half. It's the mainstream, commercial rap that everyone thinks of when they think of rap (unless you're into 'real' rap yourself) and frankly, that's a small fraction of what's out there to which hip hop heads are bobbing their heads and opening up their minds.

Ever heard of:

Tribe Called Quest
Digable Planets (LOVE them)
Common
Mos Def
Boogiemonsters (one of dh's favorite groups - their CDs are impossible to find)
Dead Prez
Arrested Development (Take me to another place....Tennessee)
De La Soul
Wordsworth
Dilated Peoples
Styles of Beyond
Adlib (have heard of him, but not heard his stuff)
Talib Kweli
Blak Prophetz
7L & Esoteric (great song called Word Association)
Pharoahe Monch

The list goes on and on and on...it's just that the big biz doesn't market the good stuff like they market the gangsta stuff. It sells, so they market it. Some of it I think it pure crap, but some of it is decent and you just have to REALLY listen to it to understand the point. I don't like most west coast rap about bi%&^s and gats and gangs and crap with simple lyrics and tacky beats, but that's just me.

One of my favorite groups, now mainstream, once totaly underground, is Wu Tung Clan. Almost all of the groups 9+ (it varies) members are lyrical geniuses. Inspectah Deck is perhaps the best lyricist (or Gza?) and all with voices that you remember and that lend well to intelligent rap music...ODB is a bizarro character, but I really enjoy the rest of the group...we own almost ALL of their gazillions of albums from 36 Chambers, Only Built for Cuban Linx, Bobby Digital, Tical, etc. on down the line.

The problem with people "complaining" about rap and saying that it's crap and not music (not saying that's being done here...but I hear it all the time when someone finds out that I love hip hop) is that most people have NO CLUE what real rap is about and have probably only heard of 2 or 3 artists (the ones that HAVE become household names in the world of hip hop/rap). As a lover of hip hop myself, I do end up defending the music to people who don't understand.

I listened to rap as a pre-teenager and teenager (granted, it wasn't as gangsta-ized then, but still) and I never wanted to "bust a cap" in someone, nor did I EVER think it was okay to steal, do drugs, physically hurt, etc. just because some song lyrics talk about doing those things. Yes, some of it is demeaning to women, but a lot of it isn't...take a listen to Common's "The Light" for an example:


Good stuff.

Unfortunately vulgar, commercia, musically bankrupt "rap" is the vast majority of what is being heard today. Most kids (most people) aren't intelligent about music choices they'll by whatever's popular at the time and love it. So positive, or even neutral rap is almost insignificant when discussing the effect rap has on American culture. These voices have been drowned out for some time now...

I'm not sure it has affected moral fiber as much as it has reinforced the moral failings already present. It gives people a ready way to justify their own twisted morality (something we all have to some extent). So taken in perspective the effect of rap on our culture is strongly negative.

Substitute "rock" for "rap" in the quote above, and you could be my mother complaining 20 years ago.

Chill out. If you don't like it, don't listen to it. Music simply reflects culture, often the rebellious culture of youth. Then people grow up and get jobs.

EXACTLY.

Children will be around "rough" parts of our culture at all times - including racist friends, teachers of bigotry, violent movies, nasty rap songs, lewd or otherwise controversial theatre, art, and expression. They grow up with drugs, with violence, with sex. They have all these chances to make the wrong decisions, but all of that is nothing compared to what is in their core - what family values they have. Intelligence, self esteem, and family will always win out over the distractions in their lives. Rap culture will only snatch up those who are missing something in their lives. Love your kids, make sure they know it.

Maybe this is true of exceptionally rational people. Most will do just that. Adopt the values of what they see as popular culture over those taught by their parents. I know plenty of kids with parents that offer/teach set of values, I also not plenty who reject these for the first thing with a price tag.

Or not. That's one of the problem. Given the example set by much of this music, many grow up believing this is the way they "have to be". I've heard these exact words more times than I care to remember. I'm not worried about myself, but about the thousands who aren't wise in their choices of music. It is definitely having a negative affect on our culture.

I bolded the statement in Turnea's response above because it so epitomizes much of this "woe for society" debate that endlessly repeats itself generation after generation.

True, some minority of kids will not "grow up and get jobs", just as some kids of the seventies never stopped smoking weed and sitting around all day.

There will always be those that will look for any excuse to be lazy and unproductive. You can't point at the excuse they happen to pick and blame it for their behavior.

Video games don't turn kids into killers. Gangsta rap doesn't turn kids into gangstas.

I wish I could have said it better, but I can't so read this again:



Popular culture does not have to power to overcome good parenting for ill nor bad parenting for good.

The biggest affect popular music has on our culture is that it gives each generation something new to annoy their parents with.

I assure you my concerns are not generational (I'm seventeen ). I think my perspective allows me to better appreciate music affects on my peers.

I agree, in fact I said something to that effect already.


What action (if any) should be taken against this influence is not really up for debate here.

Are the lyrics of some rap/hip-hop, that glorify gang-banging, drug dealing and the other actions that are stereotypically associated with the "ghetto," influencing our culture to any degree? Why or why not?

Isn't it more a case of the reverse being true? That its our society today that has perverted what was once a pure form of music and mutated it into a style that worships greed, vice and violence?

Good point, Moif. The inspiration for this music has to come from somewhere, and I don't doubt that the finished creation can also act as a catalyst. Isn't that often the nature of art and music?

Yes. Art mirrors reality which in turn models itself on art...

Perhaps we need to be more iconoclastic?

I listen to rap music all the time. But I am definitely not a proponent of gangsta rap. In fact, people like 50 cent and others *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** me off, because of the fact that they feel nothing wrong with mseeing up children's minds and diminshing hope while brandishing guns just to make the almighty dollar. I don't like gangsta rap and I don't like the people who portray that.

That having been said, rap music is not even 10% gangsta shoot-em-up rao music. It's all about having fun and a beat you can nod your head to. And a good bit of it is encouraging. Nas just came out with a hit song called "I Can" that soon was coming out of the mouth of every little kid you saw walking down the street. Also, there are songs by Ludacris, Outkast, Killer Mike and others (I am from the South, so I am partial to southern rappers) who want to create fun music - to bring rap back to where it first started...back to "The Car Wash" and the "Up Jumps da Boogie" type style.

Although Eminem is one of those people I criticize for trying to take "thug life" and make money off of it (come on, there aren't too many 90 lb thugs out there) I agree with one thing said: nobody cared about any of this until it hit the suburbs, and now every one feels there should be a ban on rap in general because the little rich kids at home are saying strange new words like "schizel". Please stop stressing out so much. If anything, you might wanna check out that heavy metal before another school get shot up

I would suggest that culture influences art, moreso than the reverse.
Some kids may put on a "ghetto" act influenced by hip-hop, but that is just standard issue teenage rebellion.
To me, the bigger issue is the societal factors that originally influenced gangsta rap.

Oh boy. What kind of lyrics were the Columbine killers reported to be listening to? Ramstein, Marilyn Manson, etc.

Kids have commited suicide due to Metallica lyrics. I listen to Metallica and have never got any such urge. Music is what you take from it. This is silly.

So do alot middle and upper class, but all they care about is the beat. They haven't lived on the street, hasn't dealed with the drug game and the problems associated with them, and the other problems associated with poverty. When you actually are on the street and the only thing you hear is about how these rappers got rich on the drug game of course your going to try it yourself. You don't hear any rappers rapping about applying for fincial aide and going to school. Most people don't even know that FHSA will GRANT you the money if you are unemployed and don't live with your parents.
Then there is the issue of violence, sure they say stop the violence but they never say how. I beat any poverty stricken rap listenor can tell you that there are 16 bullets in a clip & 1 chambered w/o ever seeing a gun, but couldn't tell you how solve and arguement Boystown style. Look at 50 cent and how much the emphasize how "cool" he is cause he was shot 10 times and lived. (next time duck)
To the bottom class music is their only refuge. Many times it's whats on the radio before they go out on a lick ( or hit or crime.) It's what they acheive to be because it is instant. I can go rob a store (or worse) and get food for the family now, or I hit pavement and look for a job for weeks and pray to feed my family let alone myself. They don't care if that job can feed them for life, because they can't make it to tommorow.

that unlegiable babbling definately influences todays youth, regardless of race or socio-economic status, or atleast it seems to be that way. They say that the stuff comes from the heart and it is used to correct problems in the ghetto, thats like saying White Power skinhead music does not promote racial violence, and yet that music is banned from the mass media sellers...freedom of speech indeed

Well, though what this discussion is about is gangsta rap, you use the blanket statement that no rapper raps about getting an education, etc. That is simply not true. Check out rappers/hip hop artists such as Talib Kweli, Common, Mos Def and most anyone from the Roots. They are always going on social change within the ghetto and etc. Most conservatives wouldn't enjoy because it often times has a liberal slant (no problem for me ) But the fact is non-violent, solid message rap is out there, you just gotta find it. (Of course, it would not fall under the catergory of Gangsta Rap)

I agree. My favorite rappers are Outkast, Ludacris...I don't listen or take to gangsta rap, and the last person I listened to that did rap that way is now 6 feet under (though people say he is still alive).

People like to generalize about that, but no one seems to place any blame on crazy people like Marilyn Manson and that guy who killed himself to "protect his daughter".

Believe me, it is rap you should worry about. I've never heard any gangsta rap about walking into a school and blowing the first 20 people you see, then turning the gun on yourself.

Yes, the lyrics of some rap songs and artists are a very bad influence. But some of it is good, and there's some I enjoy, as with many other genres of music. I don't favor any sort of censorship except the parental variety, but I am for the vigorous exercise of that in the case of lyrics that promote any criminal subculture.

I'd like to add to this conversation. One of my summer jobs is working concert security at the Tweeter Center Chicago. This summer we had the "pleasure" of being visited by some of today's foremost "gangsta" rappers. On the bill was Snoop Dogg, Jay-Z, and headlining was 50cent. I admit to enjoying various forms of rap, at times even "gangsta" rap. Here is my take on the concert, as well as the crowd. This was the worst concert I have ever worked in my 5 years at the theatre. The music was fine. It was the crowd that was out of control. Over the course of the evening, there were 3 stabbings, 2 attempted rapes, countless drug arrests and acts of battery. One grotesque example: upon leaving the theatre at the end of the show, a car with 6 men in it were getting frustrated with the slow traffic leaving. When 3 parking attendants informed the men the direction to go, they were not satisfied. Instead, they decided to get out of the car, and proceed to beat these 3 high school aged girls bloody. This is just one such example of the behavior this music encourages. I personally was assaulted numerous times throughout the night, much of the assault coming in verbal form, and directed at my race [I am white]. The crowd was made up of about 25% well off white suburban kids, and 75% black people from various socio-economic standings. It made for an ugly night.

So in the end, what do I think of "gangsta" rap? I think it projects a negative image of the black community, but I think it has every right to exist. The "gangsta" life does exist, whether or not the artists glorifying it actually have/do live it. Music is an expression of oneself, as is relating to it. Welcome to America, where profiting of something negative is perfectly acceptable. In regards to children, it is up to the parents to decide whether or not to permit exposure of such music. If the parents are not active in the child's life, so be it. That is lazy parenting.

Thats all well and good, but at what point can you prove that these actions were caused by the music itself? There is no provable link. Many Concerts have problems, look at Woodstock (the recent one )

Even shows that have the best intentions always have problems, there are always people there that do not want to enjoy the music but are there to cause trouble. I will post again tomorrow, with reference to some of the other points in this thread as this is definately a topic worthy of consideration. Its just that I am very tired now and I have a busy day ahead of me.

If you seem to be struggling with idea why Rap "Gangsta" music is so popular, let me put it to you in this analogy.

Have you ever watched professional wrestling? If you don't like it, you probably said to yourself... "wow this is such a joke, how could it be so popular?". Granted the professional wrestling industry is not as popular as it was at one point in the 80's, and once again in the late 90's for a year or two.... but its still a big force in cable television.

I remember Jay-Z said something like "Rap is like professional wrestling, theres a lot of talk, but nothing really happens"... (something to that effect). This is SO true. Kids don't tune in to watch professional wrestling for the edge of your seat realistic fighting, ITS ALL ABOUT THE STORY LINE.

Whose gonna fight who? Whose on this guys side? Is he gonna betray him at the last minute? Oh i bet i know what happens! OH no way did HE just call that guy out? Oh man (wrestlers name) is gonna totally kick his butt! No Way!

This is one of the things that makes rap so exciting, its like a storyboard. Take popular beefs like Jay-Z and Naz... 50-Cent and Ja-Rule... or past ones like Notorious B.I.G. and Tupac. And EXACTLY like wrestling, it doesnt really matter at what time you jump into the story, because you can always go back and buy the older CD's and find out what he said about this guy, and what the other guy said in return.

I have to admit, in 8th grade i was really into wrestling... i had always hated it and thought it was stupid, and couldnt understand why people watched it, but when your friends are talking about whats happening in the story, and you don't know whats going on, your more likely to tune in for the next "RAW" for wrestling, or for Rap, buy the newest CD like Obie Trice (cheers): to find out what Eminem/D12; Dr. Dre; and 50cent/G-Unit; are saying about Ja-Rule... and when the radio announces it has the newest Ja-Rule track "coming up next hour", you bet your butt your gonna tune in to hear what he has to say back.

Two kids who religiously listen to rap know all about this stuff, and you could watch them talk about beefs and recite lines by heart.... kind of like a Ghetto debate LOL. Theres a kid in my fraternity whose a rapper, and actually has a Demo or two and a record label, and before i met him i had always listend to rap, but when he would talk about notorious beefs and start reciting raps he'd catch the attention of anyone listening.


This is by no means the biggest reason why rap is so popular, but for me its one of the things that keeps me interested, its friggen awesome.

This is kind of a quickly written up post, but i know its relevent... so someone follow me up to let me know im not the only one who thinks this way, cuz i know im not.

Everything influences our culture. Sorry, but you can't blame any of these negativities that are associated with "gangsta rap" strictly there. It's common knowlege that a wide majority of white rockstars use drugs, and their drug use is shown in the media and in their lyrics. Doesn't the Sopranos glorify gang-banging? How about Goodfellas or any other Italian gangster film?

Does Marilyn Manson glorify drug use with songs like "The Dope Show"? Did Kurdt Cobain glorify drug use with his song "Aneurysm"? How about after Kurt Cobains suicide, when a few kids took after him ending their lives. Is he to blame for their suicides? Did Friedrich Nietzsche endorse drug use when he used in the waning moments of his life?

Drug use is a part of our society. Gang-banging is a part of our society. It's not solely to blame on rap/hip-hop music that deals with these issues.

-Sid Vicious

Hi Sid. Welcome. You may want to reread the debate question. The word "negative" does not appear in there at all. It is asking what influences exist - that means it can be positive or negative. It doesn't ask about the societal influences of those other groups you mentioned all.

As I said "everything affects our culture".

I was simply disproving the fact that the "gangsta" culture is the one making drug-use and gang-banging part of our culture.

Also, what does this have to "race issues" anyways? Since when are ghettos primarily associated with one race? Since when is rap music associated with only one race? Since when does "black culture" mean "hip-hop"?

It's hard to be objective about a type of music that refers to women as "skanks, hoes and be-yotches."

It is hard for middle-aged white women to understand why kids walk around with big baggy pants with the waistlines below their butts and their boxer shorts showing.

I was filling the gas tank at a Clark station one day and I asked a guy why he liked rap music, because it was blasting from his car as he filled his car's tank. I told him I didn't understand the words, they were hard to pick out.

He said, "You just gotta relax when you're listening to it." He didn't seem offended that I asked, maybe a little surprised.

I also asked him if he was Christian, because he had a huge Crucifix on a chain around his neck. He said no. He seemed amused that I asked.

You know, it's funny. I love to debate - especially with my dad. I like to think that I have solid logical foundations for most of my stances on arguments.

But this is one topic that he and I cannot debate without one or both of us getting emotional, or without me feeling like I failed to present a convincing response.

I always feel like I'm inadequately defending my listening to "gangsta rap" music. I don't suppose I can ever really come up with a good reason why it's ok in my eyes for these people to use such "hateful" language where in any other forum the same expressions, I'd probably be outraged.

I guess because it's generic. I guess because their use of the terms "skank", etc to refer to women is too generic to be taken seriously. The rap songs don't just degrade women, they regularly degrade other men, politicians, homosexuals, drug addicts - LOTS of things. The tough guy/angry act is an act that you either love it or you hate it. I can sometimes relate to it. It's the complaining that we all do every day on this forum, just more profanity. They're angry about the same issues that we are - they just express themselves differently. Every single point of view on life that you hear in a rap song, I've seen the same points of view here in this very forum.

Gangsta rap is all about power and confidence, and the music can take you way, take you into that power and confidence - that angry mindset that is release - a freedom in some ways, and a jail in some ways. It's amazing stuff. I don't suppose many people who were not raised around it would ever relate to it. The experiences that go with the music - the soundtracks of our lives. If your life's soundtrack is more bluegrass than hip hop, I can understand why gangsta rap wouldn't appeal to you. In one of our forum topics, someone asked the question "do we care if we're judged by our spelling"? Some of us do, some of us don't. In the world of gangsta rap, "do we care if we're judged by our vocabulary?". Most of them don't. The whole point of it is to express oneself, and sometimes to express others in the community. It's a new spin on the same old venues - political debate, love and hate, life and death. Not everyone likes to mull over the issues in a GA-rated debate forum. Some people elude a passion behind their voices and they don't care if they're being told that they're offensive in their delivery.

Quite honestly, I don't see how anyone can find any benefit in listning to rap. It's just another pasing novelty. I bet rap won't even make it into 20s of the XXI century and will be virtually extinct in ten-fifteen years.
As for "values of rap", I can clearly discern a message when I see a new video of Snoop Dogg or Ludacris rolling in a chrome-wheel Navigator or Escalade, entering his luxurious mansion and bunch of girls in tongs patting/caressing him and he himself "being cool". This type of music cannot transmit any values that would appeal to ANY audience, whether a ghetto poor or suburban white kids. I meant here values of hard work (and not a fale hope of becoming an NBA player or a rapper and making tons of money while doing nothing), moral integrity (I definetely couldn't see it in arrogant behavior of rappers), and abstinence from drugs/alcohol (many rappers, as well as rock stars, glorify drug use and many use them themselves).
I used to be enthralled by rap back when I was a freshman. Until I lived for some time in a poor white town in the middle of ghetto and had a chance to perceive a real life of poor blacks and white, and real face of ghetto. There's nothing glamorous in living in ghetto. And there's nothing funny in seeing kids (both black and white, but mostly blacks) walking with their Removed non-medical term for anatomy exposed and showing no respect whatsoever to teacher and other students.
And although some of ya'll said that rap is "interracial", we all know that rap was born and is thriving mostly in black culture. As the matter of fact, there's only one white rapper - infamous Eminem (examplesof "rap values" are galore in this man; kids should strive to emulate him.). Whose lyrics are saturated with profanity and messages glarifying murder, rape, abuse of women, and other "good stuff".
Even though many rappers admit that they don't mean to perpetrate their lyrics in action, still spreading of such thing to highly susceptible to bad influence audience of self-inconfident status-hunting kids is dangerous. I cannot comprehend why US Government still didn't censor the content of Eminem's song (on the radio they are censored, yes. But on original CD teens can hear hard-core uncensored content).

So what's are rap values again? Empty shell with no kernel. Flashy stuff with no interest to anyone who ever saw a real ghetto and the real life in the inner cities. Pants barely hanging on the buttocks, 5'lbs. golden necklace, Cadillac Escalade or Lincoln Navigotor (or if you can't afford one, at least chromed wheels and powereful basses to your stereo), musics blasting and irritting people around (who yet have to tolerate this "freedom oo expression), untied shoelaces on the boot/sneakers with brand hanging out (a must), excessive use of "m.f." and "beyotch" and other newly-coined "terms", and many other too numerous to list.

And for women's portrayal in rap:
Most women are portrayed as a sexual objects having most of their values in big rounded butt and large breast. That's what's admired most by rappers and shown that's type of woman you typically see when (if) you turn to BEN channel. Women aren't valued for their intelligence, sense of humor, character values. They are vulued just as they are called, as "beyotches". The only exception to that rule is when rappa sings "bout his momma" and female R&B artist sings how her boyfriend values her because "he buys her clothes and car(s)".
And the saddest thing is that media is mostly for this kinda culture and promotes it actively.

Basketball players don't make money doing nothing. They train for hours every day, and train for many years to make it to the professional level. Not to mention they are intensely under the eye of the media and their fans. Rappers spend monthes in the studio, on the road, and promoting their music in other ways. Developing their style, delivery and lyrics takes dozens of years. Your incredibly ignorant, I and anyone persuing one of these professions know that you don't make tons of money while doing nothing. The true examples of "making money for nothing" is the Onassis', Hilton's and other rich whites that make money doing nothing and becoming greedy parasites to the hard work of their ancestors.
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You people also refer to rappers as sexist and drug-using.

Perhaps the women immersed in rap culture shouldn't steep to the level that male rappers would like. If they wouldn't pose scandolously in rap videos and follow rappers on the road offering easy sex to the rappers then this wouldn't be an issue. From my stand-point, a good potion of the "non-gangster rapping" community uses drugs, too. Jack Osbourne used drugs and graciously dedicated a T.V. special about his use. But, how about these people we hail as thought-provoking, genius, and/or world changing.

Nietzsche, Jean Paul Saltre, Sigmund Freud, Kurt Cobain, Sid Vicious, Kurt Cobain, Hitler, Stephen King. The list goes on.
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Let's look at the broader picture.

Where's the values of the world? Or for this matter, any music? Do Brittney Spears
or Justin Timberlake promote positive values in their music? How about Motzart or Bach?

Music isn't about values. It's about selling records.

Sid, I didn't mean that rap artists and NBA playes do nothing, what I meant is that there is a false hope created of becoming one of these and getting a multi-million-dollar annual profits while shooting a ball or singing. It's a hard work, I know, but compared to what an autoplant worker or doctore or enginee or policeman would have to do to get the same monetary compensation, it's an easy work (although it requires talent, etc.)
But by inflating this kind of shifty, mirage-like illusions, youth is led astray and priorite shift from hard work and education to unproductive "preparations" to become a rap/R&B star or basketball/football player.

"Perhaps the women immersed in rap culture shouldn't steep to the level that male rappers would like. If they wouldn't pose scandolously in rap videos and follow rappers on the road offering easy sex to the rappers then this wouldn't be an issue."
So it's women's fault that they offer themselves.
It's like saying it's not a man's fault that he hired a prostitute, she was just there offering herself and man was "led into temptation". Adam and Eve story, Adam did it, but it's all Eve's fault. It all stems from values and individual integrity (or lack thereof).

I don't see your point with the list of the people who supposedly used drugs to stimulate their thinking. Are you glorifying a drug use? I know rock stars are infamous for drug addiction. But my point is rappers are just like them, no better.

Britney Spears, J. Timberlake ok. Mozart and Bach, that's past the line. Their music is inspirational, although it has no lyrics. Beatles, Sting, Red Hot Chili Peppers, their songs have meanings.
Rap's meaning is about being cool and rolling around in Lincoln and wearing a necklace with a bunch of chics surrounding you. Fantasy.

in my opinoin, 2pac is the best rapper and one of the most talented musicians ever. some of his songs can be considred gangsta rap, but he has many quality songs, "dear mama" "changes" "until the end of time" etc.

another group not mentioned is the roots. they fuse many types of music under rap and are definitely not gangsta rap.

popularity is a double edged sword. to become popular, you must express what people want to hear. but then, you can not have much meaning and will be criticized.

i think that most real music is based on life experiences. of course, there are many fake rappers milking fake ghettoness for money. this disgusts me. but people who have come from less than ideal conditions should be able to talk about this in their music.

btw uga boy its shizzle lol



many mistakes:
lets see, white rappers - beastie boys, vanilla ice. there are many underground rappers (i no many russian 1s, for example)
BET not BEN
if u actually listened to Eminem, you would realize that he has three differents personas (marshall, slim, eminem) and they all act differently.
if u read previous comments, there are plenty of rappers who value women (common, etc.)

2pac also had gangsta raps songs and songs demeaning women. He also got raped in jail.

Of course Roots fuse together many types of music, many bands do. This is irrelevant. This thread is about Gangsta Rap, not black people that sing and/or play instruments.

So, it's wrong to lie and/or make up things that you haven't done in your music? Tell this to Good Charlotte for their song called "Hold On", it's about suicide and I'm sure that if one of them commited suicide the song would hold much more merit. Tell this to Maddona for singing about "American Life". She is British. Tell this to Ozzy Osbourne, he never went on a "Crazy Train". I'm sure he always travels by jet.

"if u actually listened to Eminem, you would realize that he has three differents personas (marshall, slim, eminem) and they all act differently."
I've actually used to listen to him a little bit back in 9th-10th grade. Only these times are gone. So don't tell me what Eminem sings about. As far as I'm concerned he can have 20 different "personas" and 30 different aliases. All his songs are very similar in content and it's shame to designate his "artistic creations" music. You degrade the word music just by associating it with his name.
Petr Velikiy, it's all just a passing, ephemeral (not lasting) fad of time. Hopefully you'll see all the foulness of this music genre as you get older and (hopefully) wiser. Music genre that freely uses curse words and doesn't restrain from hailing incest, rape, homicide, drug abuse, drunk driving (recalling lyrics of Eminem now?) and other anti-social activities just cannot last long.

I agree with parts of what illuminati expressed, but I also disagree in part.

Some people may fail to make the distinction, but I don't see rap as some cultureless barbarian-like disdain for all things good.

I think there are many types of rap these days just as there are many types of rock and so on and so forth. If we got rid of every genre of music that had an offensive section, we would be left with classical.

I agree with you about the effective portrayal of the "ghetto"in mainstream gangsta rap, and I also have already said that this is only glorifieid because they use it to pay the bills.


However, this is not the portrayal of rap in general. It definitely is not an "empty nutshell", or all degrading. It is what people choose to hear. If you guys don[t know, Microsoft uses this software called LAUNCHCAST (click media on your toolbar) that allows you to listen to online radio stations playing the popular music depending on your preference, and I have been listening to Hip Hop for the past hour or so.

I have not heard yet one song calling a female a skank, or talking about busting a cap in someone. To reiterate: it is what people choose to hear.

I love rap music, and there are songs that I really get something out of. To generalize, I personally believe that if a person can only see emptiness in rap, then he/she is listening to rap.