UGA Boy brought up the Confederate flag in the Gangsta Rap thread and I just want to know everyones opinion on this...

What is your stand on the Confederate Flag? It is blatant racism? Should states use it on their state flag?

Personally, I think states should vote on whether to keep their flags. The problem with symbols is that their meaning- or lack thereof- is in the eye of each individual beholder. I think it's perfectly reasonable for an African American to find the Confederate flag extremely offensive. It's a symbol of a state that fought to keep his/her ancestors in chains (sure, you can say the Civil War was about state's rights but it was specifically and undeniably the "right" to own another that triggered the conflict).

At the same time, I know perfectly not -racist people that have the flag, for reason of their ancestry and history, and that's outside of states where it's still a traditional symbol. I also know people with no historical interest or link to the South that sport it just to be offensive, regardless of whether they're racist. B/C the symbol means so many different things to so many people, I think it sets a bad precedent to have any non-democratic order banning it. I think J.S. Mill in On Liberty discussed why there should be no right from offense, maybe a more ambitious person will post that. Anyway, we'd soon have to debate how legitimately offensive many common symbols are.

That being said, my personal feeling toward the Confederate flag? It's like wearing a banner proclaiming "We Lost!". Whenever I see a skinhead page, pamphlet, rally, etc. with the Confederate and Nazi flags together, I can't help but feel confident history repeats itself and the joke's on them.

PD makes a good point. Everything about the confederate flag is about losing. the war, the rights to slaves, secession, the south was devastated economically in comparison to the north.

I suppose those who wish to fly it see it differently. Traveling through the south I have seen the confederate flag displayed on trucks, cars and house windows. It's up to the individual. choosing to adopt this flag could be seen as sour grapes.

The confederate flag does not have racist meaning unless people give it that meaning. Having grown up in the south (kind of, TX isn't Deep South) and gone to school in the real south (TN), I can say that there is a certain affinity southerners feel for each other. Many people use the Confederate battle flag as a way of showing that.

Living in the South is very different from anything else in the U.S. People there feel a connection that I'm not sure people feel anywhere else in the U.S. It's a connection that comes from hardship, and sometimes is more of a sub-conscious thing. Many people don’t realize that The South still suffers economically from the results of the Civil War and Reconstruction.

It is unfortunate that this symbol has been used by fringe-hate groups. I think in certain cases this has resulted in the prejudgment of southerners as racists.

My main point is that NOT ‘everything about the confederate flag is about losing.’ These days most people use it as a symbol for southern heritage or racist beliefs. It is a shame that certain people use it for racist purposes, but not everyone who has a confederate flag is a member of the KKK.

I live in Athens Ga, the same town as UGA Boy, home of the Bulldogs, REM, and the B52's and Athens is a fairly progressive and eclectic college town. But if you 15 minutes outside of town to the J&J Flea Market, you will find a stand that sells Confederate propaganda and one of the shirts they sell that has the Confederate flag on it says and I quote, "It's a white thing, you will understand." Now, if you can tell me that the Rebel flag still doesn't hold racist meaning to it with a straight face then you deserve an Academy Award.

A little background: I spent the first three decades of my life in Southern California, and have now lived in Tennessee for about fifteen years. The Confederate flag controversy is always red-hot around these parts. To some, it represents nothing but racism. To others, it represents nothing but history. I see it displayed quite a bit on homes and cars, since I happen to live in a mostly white, mostly rural county. Whenever I see it outside of historical context (a museum display, or a battle re-enactment, for example) it makes me uncomfortable. It always seems to be associated with a kind of "in-your-face" Southern solidarity. Not the sort of wholesome pride of place which one encounters in the undeniable civility, hospitality, and love of the outdoors which one senses in most Southerners; not even the religious and political conservatism which is endemic to this region. Rather, it seems to be aimed at perceived enemies; at "Yankees," if you will.

I live just a few miles from the state of Georgia, where the state flag controversy rages constantly. It should be remembered that the Georgia state flag did not make use of the Confederate battle flag until 1956. It seems possible to me that this was another "in-your-face" gesture to those who were just starting to fight institutional segregation; a battle cry for "state's rights." As far as I can tell, no matter what is done to the Georgia flag, lots of people are going to be very unhappy. I don't have a good answer, but I suspect that the design of the state flag is an issue that might be best left to the state legislature than directly to the voters.

Going to school in Georgia this is an issue that I never was aware of until I was out there. I try to see both sides of the story, since both sides are so passionate about it. But, anything that can divide a state this way will never be a positive. I feel everyone has their personal right to fly the flag but not as a representation for the entire state.

Georgia is home to a lot of antipathy towards the governer, Sonny "Chicken Little" Purdue. The Southern Party of Georgia even "flags" him at every event he goes to, and rightfully so. He blatenly lied when he said there would be an open election regarding the flag, but this never did happen. While I personally am not offended too much, because the new flag does indeed include elements of the first confederate national flag, it was the lie which irks me. The Battle flag my ancestors modeled on St. Andrew's Cross is not a symbol of hate, but unfortunately certain extremist groups use it as such.*cough KKK cough* A black man named HK Edgerton knows the real meaning behind the flag.

http://www.southerncaucus.org/hk18.htm

It is unfortunate that this meaning has been distorted in certain repulsive acts of violence, but at least some of the minority are able to see beyond this violence and into history, and god bless them for that.

Personally I love that flag. I have confederate flags in various places around my house (I have lots of Italian flags and American flags too) and I have one on my banjo... I keep Old Glory on my guitar.

I don't see it as a signature of racism so much as hertiage, resistance and love of your land. I know it doesn't make sense to everybody but I think it's quite legitimate.

I don't think that the Civil War was bout slavery, so much as slavery was the final strw that broke the camel's back.

JL, what love of your land? The confederacy doesn't exist anymore, in case you'd forgotten. If you love your land, and wanted a flag to "prove" it or whatever, you'd have a U.S. of A. flag, as you've stated you do.
What is to "love" about the confederate flag? It is a symbol for a period in history that is over. What heritage? What's to be proud of? That the south wanted to divide America, and hated America so much it seceded? That the south wanted the right to own others as property? The "states rights" bit is pure hoopla. Well, not completely. They wanted the right to decide for themselves, as states, whether they could own people or not. That's their "states right" that they went to war over, that they divided America over. Wow, just writing about it has me swelling with pride over the wonderful south... let me go out and buy my rebel flag right now...

The Confederate Flag represents history. The history of a small group of white slave-owners who caused half the country to be destroyed in a cataclysmic war because they wanted to be allowed to enslave their fellow men and who lost. That has about as much to do with American values in the twenty first century as the Swastika does. Personally I think it's better to burn the U.S. flag than fly the confederate flag. There may be some vague message about federalism that some people can get from that flag but how can anyone justify flying it if it also stands for the ignoble and despicable institution of slavery.

As much as we like to forget, the Civil War's main conflict was unity of the states. Slavery was just a plank in their platform.
Don't get me wrong, I think that the flag should not be flown. But then again, that's my personal opinion, legally they should have the right to fly it.

Suzy & RancidUncle,

The love of the South is what I'm talking about. My family (not from my Italian side) is from Kentucky and Missourri. There is a lot of heritage in the South and a lot of proud people that don't neccessarily believe in slavery but do believe in the stand that there relatives took. You can't take that away from them. I don't see anybody in here complaining about the atrocities committed by the Union after the war. My family's farm in Missourri was torched, the women raped and some of the men shot. It's that kind of thing that kept a hateful sentiment towards the North in the South. I don't agree with slavery, but I don't agree with what the US was doing to the South either. I can still see how great the US is today and love my relatives that died and their commitment to their ideals. That's why it divided all of America as it still seems to today. Jeez, I feel divided now just to think of it. That's human existence I guess.

The way I see it, Lincoln was morally correct and the South was legally correct per the Articles of the Confederation.

It should be made known for some who don't seem to already know it, that not most people in the South weren't slave owners. Most people weren't fighting for slavery. My relatives weren't, if they were I wouldn't be upset because that's the way things were back then and that's one reason why the war was fought. I won't judge anyone though on this. We're all Americans and we had our differences. The ultimate good won.

RancidUncle (specifically),
Burning flags is disgusting, but do as you would.

I think that imagery of the confederate flag is a bad choice for the people of states in the south. It still reflects a type of white supremacy in that it is a general opinion held by almost every black person that I have talked to this about that the flag does not represent them. I state symbol should unify the people of the state. If it is the cause of divisiveness it should not be the symbol.

I also does not help that the civil war era flags started showing up at southern state capitol buildings after the Brown v Board decision to show the rebel spirit to resist the desegregation of the south and the end of Jim Crow laws.

I had no idea that a thread had been started from a quote about me!

I feel so special!

Now, back to business. As my name says, I go to the University of Georgia (the same town as Billy Jean), and they just opened up a new bar called General Beauregard's, which is packed to the rim EVERY NIGHT. All they show are rebel flags and rebel fighting scenes. It sparked much controversy when it first opened, but supporters insisted it was HISTORY not hate.

I have not met one black person who has curiously stepped in to that bar without being badgered, confronted and told where his place is in American history. Many people say they are saddened to see the flag used with "KKK" and "Neo-Nazis", but I can assure you that those who have told the minorities (not only blacks) where there place is in CSA history were not from either of these organizations.

The main reason I don't like this flag, however, has something to do with the reason others love the flag. It's southern pride. I am actually proud to be from the south. Sure there are racial tensions, but people are much nicer and traditions stick around longer. However, what rebel flag supporters (and, as noted above, the flag was inducted by Governor Griffin and later Vandiver who used the flag as a warning that "no, not one" black person would ever enter the University of Georgia) are doing is alienating an entire group of people. Southern pride is not just "white" southern pride. It's GA pride, AL pride and so on.

One columnist for UGA's "Red and Black" wrote his article perfectly when explaining how the southern leaders professed the war was strictly about slavery - as well as the historic meaning of the flag- so I will just post the link, because it couldn't be said better.

The Truth in the Story of Secession