This just in...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor.../islamic_summit



Are things going from Bad to Worse?
Does anyone think that the world in general is deteriorating politically and socially due to the tensions of everything that's been happening since 9\11?

This is a shocking statement to come from the democratically elected leader of one of the world's large nations. I expect this sort of nonsense from the dictator of some tiny nation. What a blow for the world.

If only he had limited himself to promoting representative government, and social and economic progress for Muslim nations. That would have been a strong, positive message. Instead, he decided to stir up even more resentment.

I would hope for a strong reaction against this message from other Muslim leaders.

EDITED: To respond to the second question added by Billy Jean.

Sadly, yes. I think things are in a very dangerous situation right now. I suspect the world is closer to the use of nuclear weapons than at any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis. I hope I am wrong.

Well what do you expect when a group of nations that are under attack. He urges the Muslim communities to get together and advance as a race. No where did he say "lets go out and kill some Jews." What he and Annan said about Israel is true. Look at the aide we give Israel. We are practically fighting the war for them. Yet when the Arabs withhold oil the Americans blast them on every front. Look at Iraq. Just a few months ago I was swearing up and down that the war was for the Iraqi people and defending Bush. (fellow Texan) Now after he sent KBR in with a no bid contract to take care of the oil I see what is was all about. The Iraqi's ignored 16 UN resolutions while Israel has over 50 and we still criticize the Pal.

Rev_DelFuego, have you looked at a map of the Middle East lately? Did you read the article I provided? Did you read where he said ? How can his words be justified when the Muslim people are the overwhelming majority over there? They have over 90% of the land!!

Billy Jean



I think his (PM Mahathir Mohamad of Malaysia) perspective is that its not so long since the Muslims controlled 100% of the region.

No matter what you feel about Israel, Mahathir Mohamad has a point. The Muslim world has never been so pressured by the west as it is today, and the only justification given for 'our' behaviour is the actions of a few terrorists... They never asked or invited the Jewish settlers into the region, and resent the fact that their people are being shoved aside by a nation which has broken just about every international law without any one questioning why.


If you were a Muslim, how do you know you would not feel exaclty the same way this Malasian does?

Well, I was in the situation where my people occupied 100% of the land and a people who had been repressed, put through genocide and humiliated for the last 2,000 years, I'd be inclined to say, "hey, I'm sorry and I'm not going to be selfish and I'll give you some land for your people, because this is your ancestral home too." Can the Muslims really be that selfish not to see how they're acting and how good they've had it?

I would hope that my religious faith would not cause me to say things as vile as:



This is far different from disapproving of the actions of Israel. (A controversy into which I will not enter.) I would not condemn the Prime Minister for that at all. (Whether or not I would agree with it.)

Sounds like Osama Bin Laden rhetoric to me.

Muslims dominate both the ME and the continent of Africa to the tune of 250 million to the Jews 5 million. 90'% of the Jews in these areas are concentrated in ISRAEL.

The statements made by this OIC is "jihadistic" in the purest sense. Are they paranoid? are they right? Are they projecting blame where they should be looking INSIDE themselves to see where THEY have failed in their countries and for their own people. The biggest oppressor of Muslims ARE Muslims.

The statement made at that meeting represents a very dangerous mindset. Imo.

BJ.



I really doubt that.

Nobody gives away land for free, and no people accept the loss of territory without a fight.
The question for the Israeli's is quite clear and they have staked their claim with conviction. But for the Muslims, the question is what they feel they must do about it. In this time, when Muslims all over the planet are feeling pressured, then the sharpest thorn in their side is Israel, and if they wish to strike back, then Israel will be where it happens. Firstly because the Muslims largely do not accept Israel's claim to the land, and second because the USA is far too strong.

The idea that the Jews are in control of the world is not a new one, but given America's almost blind support of Israel, it has become far more beguiling and easy to believe.
From a Muslim perspective, the statement is true since in the world today the USA calls the shots, and yet America, not only back Israel up regardless, but has a government filled with Jews.... and no Muslims what so ever.

So for a Muslim, what is there not to believe about Jews running the world?

I try to look at things from as many sides as I can, and to me, it seems as if the Israeli's had a real chance for peaceful co existence, but they blew it when they murdered Rabin.
Up until that point, things were beginning to settle down, and the Oslo accord, whilst not perfect had been accepted by both sides. If Rabin had lived, I think the violence would have ended.

But Rabins death allowed Israeli hawks like Netenyahu and Sharon to come to power, and that was the end of it.
These men are not interested in peace, or co existence with any one, and are pursuing an agenda that has pushed the Palestinians further and furth off their own land.

Suicide bombers cannot be compared to state sponsored ethnic cleansing, and neither can they be used as an excuse.

Remember, there were no suicide bombers in the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict until the hawks came to power, and it was an Israeli settler who murdered Rabin. Not a Palestinian.


Vicky Silverwolf




Why is that any more vile than if I said that Americans rule the world?


Editted to add

SoCaliente_1



Why? The man called for a non violent response.

So basically Moif, you dispute the war on terrorism and make the world more dangerous by falling for the "America\Israel vs. the Muslim world" lie. And those that believe in that and are extremists are the very ones bringing the world to the brink.

My dear, dear friend moif:

Let's look at these two statements.

"Americans rule the world." This is put too strongly for my taste, but I would be the last to deny that that the USA is, by far, the world's most powerful nation, and that it has a great influence (too much, in certain ways) on the rest of the world.

"Jews rule the world by proxy." This statement shocks me; to an American, it sounds like the worst sort of rhetoric by the racist organizations that, unfortunately, infest this nation. Why not say something like "The support of the United States allows Israel to dominate the Middle East" or something like that? A statement that one could support or deny, but not one that sounds so full of blind hatred.

My very best wishes to you.

BJ



I'm trying to look at it from both sides. I don't think that makes the world more dangerous.

editted to add...

Vicky

Just to assure you, that I agree that the statement was wrong. I just don't think 'vile' is the right word.

Its just simply wrong, for a number of reasons.

A. I doubt its true.
B. Even if it were true, then so what?
C. Isreal and the USA do not really rule the world.
D. And its wrong to blame an entire people for the actions of individuals.

Having said that though, I can understand why a Muslim might feel the way this PM of Malaysia does, though I find it odd that a Malaysian politician should feel this way...

I think it does because I don't hate Muslims and I'm sure the overwhelming majority of Americans don't hate Muslims. And our government has gone out of it's way to insure that our language is CLEAR that this isn't a war on Islam, but rather a war on terrorism. But the recent Islamic extremist rhetoric towards us and Israel is unproductive.

Aright back from lunch and a little too full. Look at it this way. 1.6 BILLION without a voice in international affairs and some without a voice in their own country. (Iraq ) The have no voice in the UN due to the fact that the three permanent seats belong to Judea - Christian societies, and they Veto anything pro Muslim. (for instance Israel) Or they totally ignore the UN opinion and wage a war by forming a "coalition" by bribing (Turkey), Guilting (Saudi Arabia), or threatening (Pakistan) muslim nations to join in. If you think Iraqis have any say in Iraq now than before read here too find out what one Iraqi thinks about the governing council.
Then look at how we cater to the Jewish population. Just because of the Holocaust we give Israel 16 million dollars a day when the US had no direct responsibility, while we don't give anything to the black for using them as slaves, which in my opinion is far worse than death. I had no part in it so why should I and the everyday hurting taxpayer pay for restitution.
Now are media is geared to show muslims killing us and our allies and label them as heathens. They don't ever show the American, Israeli, or allied troops breaking into houses pull out the women without their headdress, looting, and pointing guns. Or just bulldozing entire blocks in the case of Israelis. When the strike back using unconventional warfare you label them terrorists. Tell me if Muslims are so violent tell me when was the last time you saw one on TV standing on trial for murder. These people are so oppressed that they are trying to fight back with any means necessary, and when one stands up to encourage the Muslims to get together and provide a voice and force that different from the American Judea - Christian views you label him a Terrorist.

You said it yourself but you should have put your emphasis on LANGUAGE rather than clear. Actions speak louder than words, so think about what your actions are saying. Especially when the government is as two faced and secretive with their true purpose as ours.

Without a transcript, it is very difficult to determine the tone of this speech. A good portion of it may have been very positive. The article illudes to the idea of encouraging Muslims to advance in the areas of science and mathematics, and later on in the article it says that Mahathir Mohamad laid out a complete road map.

I felt that remarks that were quoted in the article were inappropriate, because they carried a blatantly racist tone.

I take issue with this statement in particular.


It's as though Mahathir Mohamad is trying to give the Muslims a sense of empowerment to rise above their current status, but he is using the idea of a "victory" over the Jews as the catalyst. Whether he is advocating non-violence or not, this strategy will fuel hatred.

Muslim leaders should be trying to empower Muslims by focusing on the strengths within Muslim society and actively working to improve the weaknesses.

Huh? What about the crusades? Or how about the UK carving it all up and telling them who is to live where and what it is they will call themselves?

So in that retrospect I would have to say it is without a doubt an improvement.




Because here in America...Americans come in all faiths, Christain, Jewish, Muslim etc etc.
We come in all nationalities and all races. To say Americans ruled would apply that Muslims, Jews and Christains and all the others rule too...which is kind of a nice happy thought really.

Those sentiments are anti-semitic...plain and clear. If Kofi Annan can express is unhappiness with Israel and his support for the Palestinians without the need to make these kind of comments then I am sure it is possible.

Moif-

it's obvious where your sympathies lie. that's fine. However, for one the Jews do not dominate the ME. The jews are trying to preserve what little of a tiny are IN the ME they DO have and dominate. Look at the map of the ME, look at Israel. 90% of the entire Jewish population live there. The rest, Arabs and Muslims. No, the Jews don't dominate anything but their home.

Consider the damage this apparently "benign" call to "non-violent" action to get rid of the jews in the ME. When has any part of the ME acted in non-violent ways? that is just too nuts for words.

Consider ALSO the hatred of the Jews that fester with Muslims worldwide! Then think about the media selectivity and censorship that prevails in the ME.

non-violent in the same sentence with ME and stopping Jews is just absurd.

the green light has been given by the racists within this OIC. there is no doubt.

Rev DF beat me to it.

BJ, its not what the US and ISrael say that matters.

Sharon shook GW Bush's hand in Egypt and said he was all for the road map to peace. Then he went back home and ordered the IDF to start killing Hamas leaders knowing full well that this would provoke a retaliation, and as usual, the Palestinians would get the blame.

Any one can say what they please. GW Bush can say he is not out to get Muslims, but as Rev DF says, the Muslims are unrepresented. They are pressured on all sides and they are trapped in their religous identity. In many ways they have become the Jews of today.

I'm not excusing what has been done in the name of Islam, but I'm not going to accept that we (the west) do not carry at least a part of the burden of guilt in this matter.

editted to add;

SoCaliente



I was under the impression that the United States had three times as many Jewish citizens as Israel does...




Is it? I hope you are not implying that I sympathise with Osama Bin Laden or his ilk?

My sympathies lie with the people who are caught in the middle of this, be they Israeli or Palestinian.

The jews are not supposed to dominate Israel. They are supposed to live side by side with the Palestinians, but the Israelis continue to expand and start new settlements.

Then why is speaking out against Israel political suicide because the of the Jewish lobby labeling them Anti semetic.

Moif -

I was refering to the % of Jews in the ME.

from your posts it appeared your sympathies were with the Pals. Not that it's important though.

Sometimes I find that in support of one side there can be tunnel vision as to the other.

Osama despises the "Infidel" which includes everything non-muslim. Going down the road the PM is going, it sounds awfully suspect. He has labeled a people as the enemy. Not a policy.

EDITED to answer Rev -

would it not be for the constant attacks to get them out, maybe they COULD have lived side by side, peacefully. we will never know.

I see.

I try to remain as balanced as I can, but its not easy.

Then why is speaking out against Israel political suicide because the of the Jewish lobby labeling them Anti semetic.

Why do you need me to explain this to you?
Many Jews do not support Israel and her stance with the Palestinians either. Many Jews do not live in Israel or belong to an America Jewish lobby group.
It is not nice to take a large group of people who all have varying opinions and beliefs on issues and claim that because of what womb they popped out of, or what religious faith they follow they all support a single idea and objective.

Well I know there are a large amount of Jews who don't support Israel or the Jewish lobby, but then why do we cater to all their needs. Why is the US the only one that stands alone when vetoing resolutions on Israel. Why do we give them as much money as we do? Why do we sell them weapons when they are in clear violation of the US Arms Trade Agreement? Why did we go against the UN and Declare war on Iraq? Why don't we let the Iraqis create jobs for themselves and allow them to rebuild Iraq? Why do we show after effects of suicide bombings for days but I still haven't seen any reports on TV about the DESTRUCTION of Rafah yet?

Well I really do not have time for this debate because that is quite the question you have asked of me...but I will say that I do not feel this is because they are Jewish, or because they suffered in the Holocaust (look at the Roma, they too were a target of Hitler and they still rot away in Europe)

I think it has a lot more to do with all that black goo they have over there, the fact that Israel is a democracy, the fact that Israel is a nuclear power. And nothing to do with the idea that Jews rule the world.

I'll concede that to an extent, though Israel is our ally and we're supposed to back our allies. But as far as butting our nose into the worlds affairs, yes, we've become the worlds police and a super power and are despised for this. Jealousy and fear are very powerful emotions. I don't always agree with America's policies, like with the war in Iraq, but I do support our standing behind our ally, Israel. America's ego and superiority is it's biggest downfall.

One of the things that makes it hard to discuss anything to do with Israel is this traditional Protocols of Zion type talk. If the Jews were so powerful how come 6 million were slaughtered in concentration camps and they have been the repeated victims of pogroms? The prime minister is engaging in lazy and dangerous scape goating.

I am a very strong critic of our political bias towards Israel which I find is an all around everybody loses policy. The principle force behind that policy is a lobby of extreme Zionist expansionists and believers in a certain version of Biblical prophecy. Other people get sucked in because of an understandable horror of the holocaust and other examples of Anti-Semitism. I also understand that Jews have a greater natural interest in Israel than most and are therefore more represented on both sides of the issue.

The affectiveness of lobbies like aipac and various fundi Christian groups in supporting a hardline proIsraeli position is no different than the affectiveness of groups like aarp or the nra. This countries politics are dictated to a great degree by lobbies but it hardly follows that any of them rule the world, or control the media(influence yes). Politics is Darwinian and the effectiveness of one group should eventually give rise to opposing groups. Why the ME opponents of Israel with their vastly greater numbers and resources have such a difficult time developing an affective democratic opposition continues to surprise me. Maybe it's something in the culture.

Frankly I think the criticism of our support for Israeli occupation policies would become a lot more affective if folks like the Prime Minister would cut the Jew baiting. People quite naturally draw inferences that distract from the central legitimate criticism. I have never in all my postings on the subject used the word "Jew" as an object of criticism. I know perfectly well where that leads. At least the PM got across a few good points - there really was a holocaust, and violence is a bad substitute for affective nonviolent politics.

Very disturbing. And this is coming from a democratic country! Like Victoria said, i'd expect this from a country run by a dictator.

Comments condemed



I think he is talking about us and Israel

Anyways, this is troubling. But i think one other wacko tried the "All muslim brothers unite against the infidels/jews/Great Satan/whatever" jazz once before and people just looked at him like

Lets imagine for a moment that, in the Clinton Administration, that Allbright, Barshevski, Berger and Cohan were all Black Muslims. Or Perle, Fleisher and all the other Jewish members of GWB's Administration were Black Muslims?
Or the heads of the World Bank, the IMF, and almost every major Media outlet?
There would be uproar.
Why, then, should the US be surprised at the perception, in SE Asia at least, that Dr M's statement contains more than a grain of truth?

The only truth would be the one the PM sees. To him the Jews, ALL jews, are enemies who are trying to destroy Islam. This is characteristic of Islamic Fundamentalist xenophobia at best.

The PM sees through a racist's eyes.

Really. And this is the PM who banned the wearing of headscarfs by public servants? Maybe there are two Dr M's...?

What is your point? And what do you mean by Black Muslims? America is a secular country so what does it matter what religion the secretary of state or the press secretary are?

It is surprising to me because it is a very anti-semitic point of view and it disturbs me to have to see it so loudly and prominently being displayed and then to have to read here that apparently many others support it.

How pathetic tho...he is retiring and this is how he chooses to end his legacy.
Although I too question this man's integrity because he is the PM that ridded himself of his would be successor with that crazy bizarre sex scandal...anyone remember this? Where they brought in the alleged mattress where the act of betrayal to his country occurred. He is still awaiting trial on sodomy charges in which in Malaysia carry a 20 yr prison term.

Just like some who think that all muslims are evil. It's like some bad thing about society and our paranoia/insanity

What a wonderful way to surpress debate, to take the old Anti-Semetic Nag for another gallop 'round that well-worn track...
My point is, as I would have thought would be obvious, that ALL of the persons I mentioned are the same race and religion, in senior positions of power in what is regarded as a Christian country..and they ain't Chrisitians, are they?
Try to see it from the point of veiw of someone outside the US...you have no shortage of talent amongst every race, yet this one race anf faith, in Clintons case, was overwhelmingly represented.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice (I love alliteration ) and Ashcroft were Jewish. Silly me.

The fact remains that there is very little to indicate that Jews run the country, or maintain a sort of international conspiracy. There is little doubt that we are as a culture slightly cloistered, but that is the extent of deliberate social policy. I have to work as hard as anyone else to accomplish my goals, and so does everyone else in my family. If we do run the world, as Matathir Mohamed suggests, how exactly did we let ourselves perish at such high numbers during the second world war? Why did we permit countries to be silent to the slaughter? The idea of a Jewish conspiracy is long standing, and even in America its popularization can be traced back to Henry Ford in the early part of the century.

Do Jews have control of a large amount of wealth given their numbers? Certainly. But there is a historical explanation for this. During the middle ages usury was forbidden by the Catholic church, and as such money rarely changed hands between christians. Jews could then be relied upon as money lenders and financial advisors, and were often employed in the courts of the powerful and homes of the wealthy to manage affairs or provide capital. Does this amount to a conspiracy? Hardly.

Dear satu Largi...

How am I suppressing your debate...because honestly what is your debate other than support for anti-semitic views?
How are all the people you have mentioned of the same faith and race? Jews are NOT a race. Anyone can be or become a Jew..any race of person can be a Jew. Jews come in all races and ethnicities.

Madeline Albright only found out in 1997 that she in fact was of Jewish descent. Madeline Albright was in fact raised as a Roman Catholic. Even so I fail to see how her being "Jewish" has any significance? If you believe she is a Jew and takes part in running the world for Jews because of the womb she was born from then how is this different from believing a particular stereotype of someone who was born black, or white or Asian?

What other Western world shares America's numbers of Jewish people? No where in Europe, Canada or Australia. America has to be by far one of the most open and accepting societies in the world and I fail to see how this counts as a negative for us. Views like the Malaysian PMs do nothing but hinder peace and feed hate, and no good will come from them.

With the tensions in the world today, well tensions that seem to exist to me. I am glad the pm did not state that open war should be the key, so if you really want to, you can at least make something positive out of that.

I am well aware that America is an ally of Israel, but one thing that scares me is i think this same friendship enables Israel to think it can do whatever, regardless of the u.n or any other body, because big old America will back them.

Another thing that scares me is religious people with nukes, i am not going to bash religion, but the idea some 75 year old right wing Zionist has the ability to use a nuke in all likelihood scares me, the same goes for bush and just about anyone in the world, the only people with nukes that don’t scare me is North Korea, though they should scare me to huh?

Overall, this is yet another reason i hoped for avoidance in the Iraq situation, or just another solution, this peels off to me as more and more of a war of cultures, and of course you always seem to have people that agree with it, and leaders that take us there, always.

Well at any rate, i am not a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian, so i should be left out of this altogether, really i should, i don’t want any part of this whole fiasco, let them blow each other up if it makes them happy.

Just thought maybe it would be of interest to those who claim that America and America alone is the great enabler of Israel to know that France actually has the legacy of making her the nuclear power she is today

The prime ministers speech is very upsetting in many ways. And I honestly hope that I am wrong about the commonalities I am about to draw here:



speech 2



Back to speech 1


Speech 2

There are some very similar feelings and points running through these two speeches

Both are speaking two a people that have been oppressed in their own eyes, both are blaming the Jewish people for their troubles, and neither are coming out and saying to kill them…

NileRiver,


I agree… but, I don’t think that was his real intention:



The term “Final Victory” does not sit well with me, for the only way to ensure final victory over another people is to insure that there is no possible means for them to regain power over you.
I am brought to think of another “final” plan, the “Final Solution” of a young German that gave the speech that I quoted above as speech two in 1921. he did not call for violence then, but his intentions became distinctively clear within the next two decades.

The prime minister goes on


Well first off, I am not sure about the learning of science, considering many of the greatest mathematical discoveries and principles were passed to us from Islamic civilization.
But the warplanes, tanks, and warships are not what i I would call “political and economic” tools. Sure I agree with strong defense and military, but when it is given in a speech that contains
Quote:



I am not inclined to feel relieved.

Thank you for your patience, I know how hard it can be to real long winded posts, but I hope I made some valid associations.


Here is one listing of the speech, And the other part
1921 Speech given by Adolf Hitler



Quane

Do you think this speech was yet another attempt to unite the Muslim countries in a reactive Jihad against the world (like bin Laden or Saddam did in their time for their own reasons), or was it just instead a political trick to get easy votes from the muslims fundamentalists?

well, horyok,

I honestly cant tell you a definite on that one,
I hope all it was was votes, but why would he try that, isnt he retiring at the end of the month? if thats the case, then i have to conclude that it is the former choice, some kind of candy coated malice.

he was addressing a large group of muslim leaders, not ones that vote for him, but those that run their nations, so i cannot help but think he meant what he said. i just hope it does not get worse.



Quane

I think it was like one of Bin Laden's attempts (that make him sound like he is losing hope) to rally the muslim world against us. We all know that some Muslim clerics here in the U.S. think that Bin Laden is absolutley off his rocker and one of them helped turn in the Portland 6 cell.

I am a Malaysian Chinese who is surprised by all this criticism of Mahathir's speech. Did anyone of you read the whole speech? The following was also part of his speech:-

"We also know that not all non-Muslims are against us. Some are welldisposed towards us. Some even see our enemies as their enemies. Even among the Jews there are many who do not approve of what the Israelis are doing."

I am not trying to defend Mahathir but has Mahathir's speech been misunderstood or misquoted? Mahathir have just stated an honest opinion about what many Islamic people is thinking.

Well maybe there is some truth in this. Look at it in the eyes of the Israeli PM Ariel Sharon.

Why did they American media fail report Sharon saying things like this? Yet when these type of comments come from a muslim every news agency has it on their front page.

Oucheev -

and what if an American President would have made that same speech? Instead replacing "Jews" with Muslims?

everyone needs to be accountable for their own words. From what I understand he has since tried to backtrack. anyway this PM is out at the end of the month, a day that can't come to too soon.

Look at the quote above from Ariel Sharon. he recieved no consequences on that statement. Maybe because the American Media fail to mention that one.

Maybe because it was a bunch of lies?

Quote lie



I did a search because it was very unlikely that Sharon would say this.

Rev -

it looks as though there is controversy surrounding Sharon's quote. It happens.

Well If that one is fake what about all of the ones posted in this post.

This thread is only about the malaysian PM's quote. You should probably go back to the other thread and challenge the legitimacy of the quotes or posts in question there.