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Corvus
QUOTE(NiteGuy @ Oct 25 2003, 09:29 PM)
QUOTE(Passion51 @ Oct 25 2003, 05:47 AM)
Those defending flag-burning reveal more about themselves than they care to admit. The flag is a symbol of a nation, in its entirety. Both the good, and the bad. Policies you agree with, and those you don't. Burning the flag symbolizes your contempt for that nation, as a whole.

Personally, I don't care to see it as illegal. I'd rather bask in the glow of satisfaction that comes with watching morons prove themselves to be just that.

Passion, I would never, ever burn the flag, because I think that it's not the way to make your argument. I only said that I can see where they may be coming from. and although I disagree with the way they may be expressing themselves, I don't consider them morons. And what you think they are symbolizing is as much a blanket statement as what you say they are doing.

You want to call me an America hater for supporting their right, fine. You want to call me a moron, fine. But I put my life on the line for their right to do this. I don't think all the reactionaries against burning the flag can say the same.

Hello, Voltaire!

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!"




I'm reading Voltaire's Candide and Other Tales now. Not that anyone cares.
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Julian
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Oct 22 2003, 06:15 PM)
I think it is safe to say that the symbolism of burning a countries flag is a pretty universal sign of disrespect and distain for that nation.

I'm not so sure.

I think that the stars and stripes is a much more potent symbol of America to Americans than, say, the Union Flag is to the British, the German flag is to Germans, the Tricouleur to the French, and so on.

Burning the Union flag arouses indignant and injured patriotism (rightly or wrongly) in far fewer Britons than the same combustion of the Stars & Stripes does in Americans.

The Union flag is no less a symbol of Britain than your flag is of America, but it is far less PERSONAL. In the USA, the Stars and Stripes is seen as a far more potent symbol and is more often seen as "my" or "our" flag. I get the feeling that in other countries it is more often seen as "the" flag of the USA because we think of our own flags more often as "the" flag of our respective countries.

To evoke the same patriotic effect, the flag alone has to be augmented by, say, the playing of the national anthem on a big sporting occasion, or other event of perceived importance.

In another seeming peculiarity to American sensibilities, most Europeans generally do not feel patriotic until they compare themselves with other nationalities. Hardly any domestic occasions that do not involve monarchs or national politics require standing to attention while the national anthem is played, because it never gets played unless two national teams are playing against one another. In a peculiar twist of history, the most popular team sports in the USA ("Football", baseball and basketball?) are not the most popular team sports in the rest of the world (soccer, cricket and rugby), so international sports rarely show Americans what Europeans are like when we are being patriotic. (The Last Nigth of the Proms, which you may have seen, is something of a British peculiarity and isn't typical).

Also, I don't think that other nationalities see "respect" as a particular virtue, certainly not in the same way Americans do. Compared to European nationalities, you do not laugh at one another nearly as much as we do. The British in particular have a national sport we call "winding people up" or "taking the Mickey" (sparing the intervention of the language police by using the rhyming slang). It isn't reserved for polticians and celebrities - just go to an aaverage British pub and listen to the banter.

Generally, we do this most often for people we have some liking or affection for - we tend to give people we don't like the cold shoulder or ignore them altogether. The closest equivalent in he USA is "busting balls", and generally does not get given, or received, with anything like the same good humour.

An example - the British know perfectly well that America "gets" irony. We just keep winding you up about it because we are guaranteed to get a po-faced response listing all the examples of irony in American comedy. It's almost Pavlovian - and you certainly don't get the irony of this particular instance. It works on the Germans, too, when we say they don't have a sense of humour. mrsparkle.gif (They really don't have a word for fluffy, you know.)

In this context, I think that when foreign protestors (at least) burn the American flag, you shouldn't think that they necessarily hate everything about America. Maybe they do, but I'd say that the main reason they do it is to get America's attention. The best way to guarantee that images of your protest get plastered all over the American media is to burn the US flag.

In other words, people burn your flag because they know it winds you up and, even if indirectly, draws your attention to what they are protesting. Nobody really bothers to burn the Union flag if they ever have a problem with us Brits, because burning our flag is not something that evokes passions in us the way it does in you. It's that simple.
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