how do you feel about burning the flag?

Actually burning the flag is one of the two proper ways to dispose of a worn out flag.

personally, I think it is a "trendy" right of passage for most who DO burn it. Want attention? Burn the flag. Hate the country and feel disgruntled? burn the flag. I suppose its less costly than strapping on a grenade vest.

I'm indifferent to the burning of it by others. I wouldn't do it myself. It means something to me and I don't hate those who have died so this country can be one where we ARE free to burn flags. It means THAT to me, what it means to the flag burner is another story.

Clearly this should be allowed because as Americans we value freedom, however...

...I feel burning the flag is hypocritical. If you feel strongly enough about American politics to burn a flag, the symbol of everything American, then leave. Australia, England, and Canada are three other options to name a few. If you are too poor to move to Canada, then realize America is the reason you are not dying of starvation and stop burning the flag.

As for foreigners burning the flag, I think it is primarily born of misunderstanding, but there is obviously nothing we can do about it except try to create understand of and tolerance for America around the world.

Unlike SoCal, I don't view burning the flag as some throw away trendy right of passage. I think it is a very serious statement in protest of American values.

Who is really the hypocrit here?

No one said a thing about flag burners hating the country specifically, or even American politics in general.

Someone who burns the flag, from what I've read and seen, is someone who may well have strong feelings for the country, but believes that a certain action taken by the administration is contrary to American values. Or that a law passed is really the antitheses of American law. They may also believe that their voice is not being heard on the subject, and that the only way to draw attention to their point of view, is to do something so drastic, that it literally draws attention to the cause because their actions will be seen as offensive by some.

Far from being un-American, these people may be seen as patriots, as taking a last, desperate measure of action in hopes that someone will take notice of their plight, real or imagined, and consider their point of view.

Insisting that someone is free to burn the flag, but then telling them to either move out of the country or shut up, is really the hypocrisy here. Someday, you too may feel the need to take drastic measures to have your voice heard. Do you really want someone telling you shut up or get out? Or do you want them to at least consider your point of view once you get their attention?

Burning a flag is untolerable. Burning a flag is a sign that you hate an entire COUNTRY, now, no one should hate an entire COUNTRY. It is irresponsible, and really, only makes the flag burner look, silly.

CP

To me, seeing a flag burned is a representation of utter and complete hatred of America. That is why I posted what I did. I think burning a flag is too strong a statement for an objection to Administrative policy or a single legislative action. By burning a flag, a protester is bringing in a whole range of issues, perhaps not associated with said protester's cause.

Everything I said stems from what I see flag burning to represent. In my opinion, you cannot burn a flag and say: "I like everything about America except H.R. 1352 concerning personal bankruptcy." Burning a flag is a much broader statement than that. I feel the people who participate in this action either know that, or don’t realize what statement they are really making. My statement above applies to those who realize and intend this type of statement. The others should be more careful about their actions and statements.

I have no problem with people who are protesting an administration, but dont burn something that represents so much more than that specific administration. The american flag represents me just as much as it does President Bush, as it does Hillary Clinton, Amlord, Mrs Pigpen, Jaime, etc.
for example,
If i walked into the bible belt and went to smashing a cross in the middle of a street, even if i am just protesting some individual or organization within the christian church, most christians would think i was against them.
or
If i walked into a african american rally and burned a flag that represented africa, even if i was protesting something that jesse jackson has done or is doing, many african americans might think i hated them.

my point:
burning an american flag is dangerous only because it is very easy to misconstrue what the burner is trying to say/protest. It is very easy for people like myself, campbejm, conservpat, and many other americans to think that the burner hates america, even if they dont.


Quane

Camp -

Don't get me wrong. I see burning the flag AS DONE by young radicals as being "trendy". Who are the flag burners? By and large they are the Uni dwellers, who by and large are both young and more often than not...radical.

I've never burned a flag and never would. As there is not TOO much I see as apocalyptically wrong with this country to illicite such militancy, by me.



Some bomb buildings, some burn flags. and herein lay the problem with "drastic" measures. One will get you the death penalty, the other just looks of "oh, for the love of God, please grow up." ok, reaction by me only, I don't know about others.

I personally think burning the American flag (other than the proper burning for a tattered and worn out one) is a HORRIBLE thing to do and I would not have any part it it. The flag represents all those who have made the ULTIMATE sacrifice for freedom and I wouldn't dishonor their memory by desecrating the flag. I think it's highly disrespectful and borderline treachery.

I am glad you said this BillyJean as I thought it, albeit quietly.

Gee, I'm glad you can see past the protestor's immediately stated cause, and determine that he is just another hater of all things America. It's such a comfort knowing you are out there, looking out for all of us.



Oh, really? What about objecting to an administration that is getting into what's seen by many as an unjust or illegal war? What about a serviceman who has his retirement benefits cut by congress after years of being promised these benefits in exchange for his service? You're really telling me that these people don't love this country as much as you do? Or that they have no right to protest in the stongest means at their disposal?

I agree with you that you probably won't see many flag burnings over the latest bankruptcy law, but you never know. However, you cannot assume that there is this all consuming hatred for America at the heart of every flag burning. To do so, to say that you know what's really in their souls when they protest, is pretty arrogant on your part.

I served for four years in the USAF. I served to protect the rights of everyone in this country, including those that disagree with our governments actions at times. Flag burning may be the ultimate form of protest towards our government. And I may not agree with the issue at hand, or the manner in which they protest, but it would be rather high-handed of me indeed to tell them to shut up, or to try and pass laws to keep them from expressing their views, even in the most base means possible. It would be even more high-handed to think that I know what their "real" motives may be.


And does that say more about the protestor, or about you, when you stop to think about it seriously? Again, who's fault is it that you misconstrue what the protestor says the problem is, into what you think he is really saying?

Honestly Nite, when one burns the American flag in protest over veterens NOT getting proper health care WHO is that person disrespecting? the veterens.

ALL credibility is lost once the line is crossed in that way. Many laws, have been enacted FOR THE PEOPLE throughout the history of this country WITHOUT the sentiments that go along with burning the flag. It's your right to burn it but because it is a right is it necessary that THAT is how we choose to show that we LOVE our country SO DERN MUCH that we have to spit on the lives lost in order to be "PATRIOTS?"

baloney. Patriots they are NOT.

Come on Nite. When you burn a flag you burn an AMERICAN symbol, not AN American idea. It doesn't show your noble cause for burning the flag, just that you are disrespecting a symbol of freedom and sacrifice.

CP

Besides, no one here is saying that we should outlaw flag burning. We are just saying that it is a ridiculous thing to do.



I do not claim to know their inner thoughts. I can only see their thoughts and beliefs through their communication of those thoughts to me. To desecrate a symbol that represents EVERYTHING American communicates a dislike for what that symbol represents. We may disagree about the details of what that symbol means, but it is not a symbol of the current Administration or a particular resolution in either house of Congress or a particular decision of the Supreme Court. It represents the ideals of America. To burn it is to communicate a renunciation of those ideals. It seems to me, that if someone feels this strongly about what that flag represents, they might be happier becoming a citizen in another country. I will gladly show them the door, but I will not kick them out because I for one believe in what the flag they burn represents.

edited for spelling (sorry )

And if the person doing the flag burning is the veteran? And don't tell me it would never happen, I've seen it.

Trust me, veterans don't necessarily feel disrespected when they see someone burning a flag. And many of us who did serve do consider them to be patriots.

The best word for flag-burning is "stupid".

You can argue all day about whether it should or should not deeply offend people, but the fact is:

It deeply offends people!

I can't think of a less effective way to get positive attention to your cause, whatever your cause happens to be.

There are always those who try to get attention by being outrageous. I don't know if they are unpatriotic or not.

But I know they are stupid.

I'll simplify:

1) The flag is a symbol of EVERYTHING American.
2) Burning the flag in protest is a desecrating of that symbol.
3) Therefore, burning the flag communicates a dislike of EVERYTHING American.
4) People, like me, who appreciate American ideals, are offended by this.

How hard is this to understand?



People who burn the flag either…

1) …really HATE America. (Ignorant)

OR

2) …are miscommunicating their feeling and beliefs. (Stupid)

NiteGuy


Perhaps it is my fault for misconstruing what the burner is trying to say. so taking myself out of the argument as an inconsiderate ignoramus, lets approach this once more:

lets say you are trying to make a point, or protest the administration, or anything, by burning the flag, you will alienate a large quantity of people who see you do it, for many people think of the flag as a symbol of america and thus will be negatively inclined towards you, even before they hear your message.
like i said, it is easy to misconstrue a flag burning as being hostile.

So to be effective in protest, I would not reccomend something so easily misunderstood. for as we have demonstrated here, many americans have an attachment to the flag that goes beyond any present administration, policy or war.

so regardless of whether people should listen to the core of your message or not, you burning a flag will make many average people (people like me, who are lesser beings) disinclined to listen to whatever you are saying, and write you off.

that was my point.



Quane

What difference does it make who burns the flag? The sentiment is the same. I, personally lose respect and ANY inclination to "hear" that person.

Just because we CAN doesn't always mean we should.

It is NOT a Patriot (imo)who chooses this method of getting his word heard. It represents hatred. Veterens or not.

I can only speak for myself. I see nothing but hatred when I see the American flag being burned. Yet, as can be read by the posts here, I'm not alone in these feelings.

The comments are much more than saying it is a ridiculous thing to do. I am against the banning of flag burning because I think such a law is unamerican.

A sample of words and phrases about flag burning or flag burners from this thread.

Hold on now. I never said it should be outlawed [Freedom of Speech], however, I think it is: A. Thoughtless
B. Disrespectful and
C. Pointless

CP

I agree, the Freedom of Speach is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than a symbol. BUT, what that symbol stands for and the symbolism behind burning it is very disturbing.

Has anyone suggested to ban flag burning? A couple of your quotes, Eeyore, are actually snippets taken out of context.
I could smear myself in dog poo and stage some sort of protest. That would probably detract people from sympathizing with my cause. Ditto flagburning. It's extremely rude, and ostracizes those who might be more supportive otherwise.

Burning the flag is desecration for the symbol of America. That's the entire point of burning something in effigy.

LOL sounds like me. Here is a little bedtime reading. http://www.esquilax.com/flag/history.html It is actually one of the respectuful WAYS to destroy a torn or mutilated flags. notice i SAID RESPECTFUL... However if it has not been done respectfully the US POLICE can arrest you. and this is just fun http://www.us history.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

-removed link, i thought it might be offensive even for me- juber-
EDITED TO ADD THIS NIGHT TIME READING[/COLOR]

I just wanted to point out the seriously illogical thinking of the "love it or leave it" statements I'm seeing here.

Hypothetical conversation:

How dare you burn the flag - you are disrespecting the people who died to protect your freedom to burn it!

If they died to protect our freedoms, how dare you repudiate me for exercising them!

If you feel so strongly about America that you burn a flag, then move to another country.

If I didn't love America, I wouldn't live here. It is because I love my country that I exercise all of my freedoms - including the right to protest in a nonviolent way - because I want my country to be the best it can be. I do not accept that our present place is the zenith of civilization. There is a higher mountain, a farther field.

------

I have never burned a flag, but I couldn't really care less if someone else does. The flag is just a symbol. That's all. The reason I wouldn't do it, is because so many people do find it offensive; I am simply too polite.

campbejm


Oh, it's pretty easy to understand. Have you posted much in the "open or closed-minded" thread? What's really offensive is when you put out an uninformed opinion, and couch in in such simplistic terms so as to try and convince people that only those who agree with you could possibly "appreciate American ideals."

As not much really offends me, seeing somebody burning the flag does not anger me or inspire me in either regards.

Although when I do see people burning a flag, I do think of them as ignorant because they cannot seem to convey their thoughts or ideas in a civil manner.

And you have to think, aren't they really trying to enrage somebody by their actions?

Mrs. P

I was responding to a post that said the only thing being said about flag burning in that it is ridiculous. I saw that as a misrepresentation of the comments in the thread.


They were all snippets supposed to reflect that the statements about flag burning were much stringer in tone than saying flag burning was ridiculous.

At the time I made my comment this vague starter question was in constitutional debate. I inferred that this topic would be about the need for a constitutional debate about flag burning.

As a vague comment outside of the context of constitutional debates, I still think that it is more important to protect the right to burn a flag as free speech than it is to protect a symbol of our nation. The protection of our free speech IMO is a much better statement about our country that the reverence of a banner.

I think many people on this thread have made the mistake of being experts on the statement flag burners feel they are making when they burn the flag. Just like burning a politician in effigy is not a call for an act of real violence against that politician, burning a flag can be an expression of disagreement with the actions of our country. Our soldiers go to war wearing that symbol, and if people disagree with something like the Vietnam War, then flag burning can be an extreme expression of disagreement with that policy.

Seems to me that if they have gotten to the point where they have to take such drastic action, knowing that some people may be offended, perhaps they have conveyed their ideas in every other civil manner they could think of, without result or even the acknowledgement of the government, of their greivances.

The Viet Nam war, or in fact, the Iraq war are two good examples of this. The draft in the 60s was another. These people had already protested in all of the "civil" manners available to them. They felt something more (still without being violent) was necessary, to get the attention of their government, and have their voices heard.

How is that in any way "unpatriotic"?

Please show me in my post where I said flag burning was unpatriotic.

I am generally a quiet person who does not like to draw attention to myself. I have never carried a placard in protest of anything, or participated in any act of civil disobedience.

For the record, however, if a Constitutional Amendment against flag-burning is ever passed (extremely unlikely) then I will burn an American flag.

Yes it is that easy. Appreciating the freedoms provided to you by the U.S. and burning a flag are fundamentally opposed to one another. Yes, you are exercising those rights, but you are protesting the very entity that is providing you those rights. How can you say, "I hate the U.S. but really like its ability to provide me with freedom to protest."

It is that simple and if you cannot understand the hypocrisy in loving American ideals and protesting in such a way as to renounce American ideals, then you must not appreciate what burning a flag communicates to those around you.

How can you act in such a way as to indicate a desire for a complete change in the system you protest, while appreciating the ability of that system to provide you with the freedom to do said action.

I just don't get it! Doesn't anyone have pride in their national symbols?! I'm not talking about Republicans versus democrats or party politics or even differences with the current administration. What ever happened to respect for those that came before us and what great things we've accomplished? I just think it's sad that people have blatant disrespect.

Burning the flag is indeed hypocritical, but personally Id be more bothered that they might be causing a hazard than wanting to run up to them and scream "you big old hypocrit!"

One thing that made me chuckle a little was a few weeks back just after Saddam was removed, there were a group of Iraqis on the TV protesting against the invasion in a peaceful manner. Ok then, you can have him back and there will be no more protesting

The reason you are incorrect, and the reason I said that your argument was too simplistic, is because you are basing it on a presupposed conclusion. You have universalized what flag-burning means to you, to be what flag burning always symbolizes. And from that, you reach your conclusion. However, you don't know what the motivations are of those who have burned the flag. To you flag burning means "I hate the US." Fine. But can you show me that this is what it actually means to those who have done it?

I gave my reasons for not having ever burned a flag in protest, but I don't presume to know what others are thinking when they burn a flag.

Your presupposition allows you to make a definitive statement. I could presuppose that Bush's policies are the antithesis of American ideals - and then I could say that if you support Bush, you hate America. But that logic would be just as weak.

I think it is safe to say that the symbolism of burning a countries flag is a pretty universal sign of disrespect and distain for that nation.

And I think it is not safe to say that burning the flag is a symbol of disdain for the country. I think it can be easily a dramatic sign of frustration that a government policy is violating the principles of the country and therefore destroying the fabric of our country.

Symbolic protest is incredibly powerful. I think one of the most effective forms of protests ever was the buddhist monk in south vietnam who lit himself on fire in front of the international media. Was he only disrespecting his own life? Or was he criticizing what the government was doing to his religion and his country?

I think the you are assuming too much about what it is safe to day about the burning of the flag.

You didn't read my post close enough. I said:

Do you remember a couple of years ago when the Canadian baseball team played in the World Series and the American team (OK, I'm stupid when it comes to sports! ) and we accidentally hung the Canadian flag upside down? Do you remember how much of a controversy that caused? Well, I'm sure that most countries love their national symbols just as much as the Canadians do. Patriotism, no matter what nation, is a pretty strong emotion.

Yes, the member of the color guard did this on purpose as an insult to Canada. So yes symbolic speech can be powerful. But it is not just an "inaudible grunt." (Chief justice Rehnquist I believe)

I was referring to a one line post that said



Did I really not read it close enough (other than accidentally typing day instead of say?)

The last time this topic was debated (now archived), I posted the following quote (and, sorry, I couldn't attribute it then and can't do so now):
That still sums up my feelings on the subject.

Those who are equating the burning of the American flag solely and exclusively with hating America are using an incredibly simplistic argument. Granted, some who burn the American flag in other countries are expressing a hatred for the country in general. But I would argue that not one single American citizen who has burned the US flag in protest has ever done it because they hate the country in general. Indeed, I would suggest that they are expressing their admiration, respect, and love of that country by exercising one of their Constitutionally guaranteed rights to non-violently protest a specific policy, program, or decision in a very dramatic fashion in order to demonstrate that the policy, program, or decision in question was itself un- or anti-American.

It is not a tactic I would personally employ (partially due to the ignorant generalizations with which the action is often met - especially by those supporting the policy, program, or decision in question), but it is not one that I would ever condemn out of hand.

Any country's flag is obviously a very potent symbol - especially to those, like myself, who have mourned friends and relatives, or, like Dontreadonme (and, I'm sure, others here) comrades, in flag-draped coffins. Clearly, those citizens who would resort to flag desecration feel very strongly and are employing an action which they know will express their depth of dissatisfaction or disapproval in a very emotionally charged fashion. While I would sooner resort to, say, burning a political figure in effigy, I can certainly understand (and, to an extent, sympathize with) the strength of emotion involved in having to resort to such a drastic expression of dissent.

While we're on the subject (and in Casual Conversation) allow me to raise a question I brought up in the previous flag-burning thread - which went unanswered. Is it disrespectful to this "symbol of freedom and sacrifice" for a country-western singer to wear a shirt made of the American flag? I've seen American flags on coasters and doormats. I would again argue that those who feel moved enough to burn the flag respect that potency - far more than those who use it for wiping their feet or sopping their beer. And as for yodelling hicks sweating all over the stars and stripes to the sound of a steel guitar? What kind of "respect" is that?

There's a huge difference between displaying the flag and desecrating it. Hard to imagine someone not understanding the distinction.

You're right, P51. I think I'm going to "display" a picture of George W Bush on my doormat. I will wipe my feet with more respectful vigor than ever! You will not, however, find my country's flag under foot...

I think there's something to be said for intent, Wertz. Flagmania is big in America, and sometimes people, in their most fervent displays of patriotism, don't notice the irony in having the stars and strips on their toilet paper.

The flag of a country is a symbol, and symbols can have more than one meaning, which makes the intent flagburning too ambiguous to really be effective, and the act has connotations that are far too offensive to really warrant doing it, like, amongst other things, a lack of respect for that country's ideals or heritage.

I can't say if it should be banned. To me, and to many people here, the act is considered obscene. That doesn't qualify to make it something illegal, but it doesn't disqualify it either. Freedom of speech doesn't prevent someone from being arrested for wandering the streets naked or, in some states (9), swearing (although context usually applies here).

Yay, my turn to say something!
Burning the US flag if you must. While you're at it, burn every other flag in the world: Perhaps when people are less blinded by their symbols of nationalism, there will be a better chance at peace.
But then, we still have the problems of economic imperialism, hatred, racism, greed, capitalism, and murder....
Burning the flag of any nation solves nothing.
However, no matter how little this action solves, it should not be considered seditious to burn a piece of cloth.
In school, children are trained to bow before the flag like robots. We cannot speak of a higher power in class, and yet we can be forced to pledge our allegiance to a PIECE OF CLOTH.
There...
[me]

Sure there's something to be said for intent. There's also something to be said for casual disrespect. Those who use star-spangled toilet paper or who have faded, tattered scraps flapping from the rear window of their SUVs, to my mind, have far less respect for the symbol than those who recognize the potent political statement made by deliberate desecration. The latter group recognizes the power of the symbol - and respects that power. One can't be an iconoclast without first seeing something as an icon. Those "displaying" the flag on a napkin to keep ketchup from splatting onto their obese bellies, to me, show a disrespect born of ignorance or, at best, disregard for the potency - indeed, the meaning - of the symbol.

I would have to disagree with your view that American flagmania is a fervent display of patriotism. Corresponding with a representative, signing a petition, organizing a public meeting, contributing to a veterans' fund, voting, attending a protest or demonstration, signing up with the armed forces or joining the reserves, running for office - these are displays of patriotism. Using the flag as a design motif is trivial. Even flying the flag itself without due respect is a hollow - indeed unseemly - act, virtually devoid of meaning. It is fashion; it is fad; it is frenzy. It is, as you say, mania. Buying toilet paper as an act of patriotism is - quite literally - the least that one can do.


Granted, someone marching into their front yard and setting a flag alight without preamble is an ambiguous act. Someone who burns the flag in front of the White House during a demonstration against, say, an act of war, is not quite so ambiguous. I daresay that the few examples of flag-burning which we have seen in this country have had a pretty clear context.


In the archived thread on flag-burning (referenced above), it was pointed out that there are many restrictions on free speech where it can harm or potentially harm others: slander, libel, public obscenity based on "community standards", reckless endangerment (shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater), etc. When it comes to flag desecration, however, none of these apply. Indeed, as was also pointed out in the previous thread, political speech - inherent in flag-burning - was exactly the sort of expression which our Founding Fathers were attempting to protect. I imagine that more than one Union Jack was put to the flame in advent of the American Revolution - perhaps even by those who later attended the Continental Congress or drafted the Bill of Rights. They would doubtless be horrified that some of their descendants would seek to proscribe so basic a political act.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::

Shinwa: While I agree with your opinion that flag-burning, of itself, solves nothing (and agree, in general, with your internationalist impulses), I do feel that those who would resort to flag-burning often do so as a reaction to economic imperialism, hatred, racism, greed, capitalism, and murder. Their intent is to draw attention to such issues and express their dissent regarding our country's support of those things. For that reason, I cannot bring myself to condemn the act outright. I may disagree with the tactic (and find it counterproductive for the most part), but I can definitely sympathize with the motivation.

On the other hand, I still have difficulty discerning respect for the flag in those who would defend its use as an appropriate motif for a pair of bermuda shorts.

Wertz, I do agree on the ignorance of flagophiles and agree in the fact that iconoclasts must recognise the power behind the symbol... but that doesn't mean they respect it. I could burn a flag featuring the swastika. Does that mean I respect what that flag represents, or does the action stand for what most people would take it for, and that is, my disgust for what it represents? I could just as easily be a disgruntled Neo-Nazi disillusioned with the organisation's current laziness in demonstrating its principles.

We'll get to context soon, don't worry...



Besides the point, really. These flagophiles might just as surely do all those things. (I'm Australian, and we don't really suffer from flagmania here.)




But still manages to offend, as shown by some of the responses here! Yes, context might be clear, but a lot of us here see it as a stupid act that, although it might express intense disapproval of the current administration or direction of the country, still is seen as an offensive attack against the country's heritage.



Exactly why I can't say if it should be banned. It may be obscene, but it's also protected by the constitution.

I'll always be more than horrified, however, when one nation burns another nation's flag.

I agree with you on that, Wertz...
It should not be considered an act of sedition. To ignite a bit of fabric is by no means treacherous, rather, it is perhaps a step forward. Dare I say... towards world Unity?

Those defending flag-burning reveal more about themselves than they care to admit. The flag is a symbol of a nation, in its entirety. Both the good, and the bad. Policies you agree with, and those you don't. Burning the flag symbolizes your contempt for that nation, as a whole.

Personally, I don't care to see it as illegal. I'd rather bask in the glow of satisfaction that comes with watching morons prove themselves to be just that.

Passion, I would never, ever burn the flag, because I think that it's not the way to make your argument. I only said that I can see where they may be coming from. and although I disagree with the way they may be expressing themselves, I don't consider them morons. And what you think they are symbolizing is as much a blanket statement as what you say they are doing.

You want to call me an America hater for supporting their right, fine. You want to call me a moron, fine. But I put my life on the line for their right to do this. I don't think all the reactionaries against burning the flag can say the same.

Edited to add: From where I sit, it seems that those that decry flag burning seldom if ever spent any time in military service. But they sure do like to wrap themselves in the flag, and proclaim themselves more patriotic than even those who have served, if that someone disagrees with them on this subject.