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Amlord
Is It Permissible?

A thought provoking article by Walter E. Williams (as always) over the General Welfare Clause.

QUOTE
We all can agree that having money to pay our mortgage or rent on time is very important. Since some people are spendthrifts and don't manage their money well, what about a congressional mandate whereby mortgage or rent money is deducted from our paychecks each month and sent directly to our mortgage holder or landlord?

The medical profession advises that a vigorous 30-minute physical workout three or four times a week is important to the maintenance of good cardiovascular health. Not all of us heed that good advice. Wouldn't it be a good idea for congress to enact a law mandating that each able-bodied person perform some type of fitness exercise, such as running, a brisk walk, swimming or biking, at least three times a week? In addition to making Americans healthier, it would put a big dent in the nation's health care costs.

Were a congressman to introduce bills calling for payroll deduction for housing expenses or mandated exercise, what would you hope would be the focus of the legislative debate? Would you be satisfied if the congressional debate centered around whether housing expense deduction and mandated exercise were in fact good ideas? Then if congressmen agreed that mandated exercise and payroll deduction for housing expenses were good ideas, and enacted legislation to that effect, would you be happy? If not, why not? After all it would be the result of a democratic process by our elected representatives.

Were such a bill introduced, whether it's a good idea shouldn't enter the debate at all. Whether it's a good idea or not is irrelevant. The relevant issue is: it is permissible, under the U.S. Constitution, for Congress to enact legislation mandating exercise and payroll deductions for housing costs? The unambiguous answer to that question is a big fat no. I challenge any congressman to point us to even a hint of constitutional authority for such a mandate.



Here is another article dealing with the same issue, although not with the common sense approach of Walter E. Williams.

QUOTE
James Madison is the Constitution's acknowledged "father" and here's what he had to say, "With respect to the two words 'general welfare', I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

Jefferson:
QUOTE
"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
  


Question: Are there limits to what the US government can do in the interest of the "General Welfare"? Do you think laws which dictate a minimum amount of exercise, or mandate payroll deductions to pay for housing would be Constitutional?
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ConservPat
It means the welfare of society in terms of law, order, etc. NOT MONEY. It doesn't mean we should be a huge socialistic welfare state, that wouldn't benefit society [the general welfare of it, to be exact].

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PrismPaul
QUOTE
Question: Are there limits to what the US government can do in the interest of the "General Welfare"? Do you think laws which dictate a minimum amount of exercise, or mandate payroll deductions to pay for housing would be Constitutional?


Are there limits to what the US government can do? Yes, they are enumerated in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution.

The general welfare clause states the purpose of the rest of the Constitution, that's all. It's use as justification for legislation is bogus.

This is made most clear by the Madison quote you cited, which is one of my favorite.

Yes, the laws you cited would be unconstitutional, but heck, so are 99% of what congress passes these days, so what the hell...
campbejm
As far as the examples presented by Williams (exercise and rent payment), it seems as though these laws would mainly be promotion of personal welfare. You can argue that 'general' costs arise from lack of exercise or late payment of rent, but I think the test should be a direct link to the general welfare. An example of this might be the maintenance of an army to protect our borders, or the construction of interstate highways.

edited to include:

I challenge PrismPaul to give example of laws passed by the 108th Congress that are unconstitutional.
Platypus
Mitchell's "common sense" (code for "stuff I agree with" apparently) falls apart rather quickly once examined. The key fact is this: the general welfare clause cannot trump individual rights. Forcing people to exercise could be considered a denial of liberty. Mandatory mortgage payments could be considered an unreasonable seizure of assets. However, a tax on tobacco or cigarettes falls into a different category. There's no protected "right to buy". There's no protected "right to pollute" and corporations don't have rights anyway, so fines for pollution would seem to be OK. Where it gets murky is with things like social security. Yes, there is seizure of assets, but is it unreasonable? Is it unduly burdensome? The right of eminent domain is still recognized by the constitution, so you can't just rule out any kind of taking by the government (however much your average high-school sophomore might wish to interpret property rights that way). A ruling has to be made as to whether a particular taking is unjustified, or inadequate compensation provided. That's where real common sense comes into the picture.
Nicademus
The general welfare can and does trump individual rights. Thats how we had a draft for every major war prior to 1980. Also eminent domain works on the same principle. General welfare isn't really a very strong tool of governance. When its honestly applied the government has little choice but to do so. It rings hollow mighty fast if used for partisan purposes. Calling out the national guard and imposing a curfew during a riot is one thing. Doing the same to combat loitering or to suppress the vote on an election night would lead to an uproar. Essentially you need the vast majority of the middle class behind you. And that is a lot harder to do than many people assume.
Hugo
The general welfare clause had a purpose and that was to enable the federal government to be able to enforce it's duties as enumerated in Article I Section 8 of our Constitution. In Federalist Paper #41 Madison clearly defines what the meaning of the general welfare clause is.
PrismPaul
QUOTE(campbejm @ Oct 21 2003, 04:49 PM)
I challenge PrismPaul to give example of laws passed by the 108th Congress that are unconstitutional.


I love a challenge... cool.gif

I was going to just name one, but...

QUOTE
To amend the Richard B. Russell National School Lunch Act to extend the availability of funds to carry out the fruit and vegetable pilot program.  [S.870.ENR]

To ratify the authority of the Federal Trade Commission to establish a do-not-call registry.  [H.R.3161.ENR]

Emergency Supplemental Appropriations for Disaster Relief Act, 2003  [H.R.2859.ENR]

Family Farmer Bankruptcy Relief Act of 2003  [H.R.2465.ENR]

National Flood Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2003  [H.R.11.ENR]

Unemployment Compensation Amendments of 2003  [H.R.2185.ENR]

San Gabriel River Watershed Study Act  [H.R.519.ENR]

Veterans' Memorial Preservation and Recognition Act of 2003  [S.330.ENR]

To provide for a 5-month extension of the Temporary Extended Unemployment Compensation Act of 2002 and for a transition period for individuals receiving compensation when the program...  [S.23.ENR]

To direct the Secretary of the Interior to conduct a special resource study to determine the national significance of the Miami Circle site in the State of Florida as well as the suitability...  [S.111.ENR]

To amend the Higher Education Act of 1965 with respect to the qualifications of foreign schools.  [S.570.ENR]

Expressing the sense of Congress with respect to raising awareness and encouraging prevention of sexual assault in the United States and supporting the goals and ideals of National...  [S.J.RES.8.ENR]

Nutria Eradication and Control Act of 2003  [H.R.273.ENR]

Hospital Mortgage Insurance Act of 2003  [H.R.659.ENR]
Do-Not-Call Implementation Act  [H.R.395.ENR]

Concerning participation of Taiwan in the World Health Organization.  [S.243.ENR]

Welfare Reform Extension Act of 2003  [H.R.2350.ENR]

Strengthen AmeriCorps Program Act  [S.1276.ENR]

To amend the Microenterprise for Self-Reliance Act of 2000 and the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 to increase assistance for the poorest people in developing countries under microenterprise...  [H.R.192.ENR]

Higher Education Relief Opportunities for Students Act of 2003  [H.R.1412.ENR]

To extend the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families block grant program, and certain tax and trade programs, and for other purposes.  [H.R.3146.ENR]

Mosquito Abatement for Safety and Health Act  [S.1015.ENR]

Ottawa National Wildlife Refuge Complex Expansion and Detroit River International Wildlife Refuge Expansion Act  [H.R.289.ENR]

Runaway, Homeless, and Missing Children Protection Act  [H.R.1925.ENR]

Burmese Freedom and Democracy Act of 2003  [H.R.2330.ENR]

Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003  [S.3.ENR]

Smallpox Emergency Personnel Protection Act of 2003  [H.R.1770.ENR]

Museum and Library Services Act of 2003  [H.R.13.ENR]

Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003  [S.1435.ENR]

Surface Transportation Extension Act of 2003  [H.R.3087.ENR] (includes “sport fishing” and “boat safety” provisions)

Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act, 2004  [H.R.2555.ENR]

Keeping Children and Families Safe Act of 2003  [S.342.ENR]

United States Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria Act of 2003  [H.R.1298.ENR]

PROTECT Act  [S.151.ENR]


Good source for details on any of these is the Thomas 108th congress site.

All of these bills were passed by the 108th congress, NONE of them are authorized by Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution.

And in case you think something like the "Emergency Wartime Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2003" [H.R.1559.ENR] MUST be constitutional, just look under the covers:

Reason article on EWSAA of 2003

and you will find the following unconsitutional appropriations:

QUOTE(reason article)

$2.9 billion to bail out failing airlines

$117 million for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to build a National Polar-orbiting Operational Environmental Satellite System. (Strangely, the appropriation provides for $2,460,000 to be peeled off for the International Fisheries Commissions for such projects as sea lamprey control in Lake Champlain.)

$2 million to increase funding for the United States Fish and Wildlife Service's State and Tribal Wildlife Grants

$1 million for Training and Employment Services at the Department of Labor

$23.3 million for commission, salaries, and expenses for the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

$9 billion in loan guarantees to Israel

$23.6 million in Operating Expenses of the United States Agency for International Development

$300 million in grants, $2 billion in loan guarantees for economic support to Egypt

$1 billion in grants, $8.5 billion in loan guarantees for economic support to Turkey

$700 million-plus for assistance for Jordan

$50 million to the Philippines to " further prospects for peace in Mindanao"

$16 million to study severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS


The Constitution that was meant to limit the power of the federal government is a dead letter. sad.gif
perspective
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 21 2003, 03:41 PM)
Jefferson:
QUOTE

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
  



The government wastes like it is their JOB. I know, I work for them. The amount of waste is unbelievable. UNBELIEVABLE. If the government was a private business, Enron would look like a microscopic scratch compared to the crater of robbery going on in the government.

Prevent it? The general population would be lucky to know about it, let alone figure out how to stop it. If only someone would do a study. If only someone had the authority to. zipped.gif
Hugo
A bit from Federalist Paper #41

QUOTE
Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have
grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language
in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to
lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts,
and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United
States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power
which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general
welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which
these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a
misconstruction.

Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress
been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited,
the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it
would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of
describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to
destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate
the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very
singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general
welfare."

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the
objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is
not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different
parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give
meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same
sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall
the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent,
and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification
whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers
be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the
preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first
to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital
of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which
neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other
effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are
reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the
objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the
liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter


I think Mr. Madison was pretty clear.

Edited to show proper quotation. -Jaime
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Orat
To add to the discussion, here's another similar quote from Madison:

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"For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity...."


But it's worth pointing out that not only is the General Welfare clause invoked to pass Unconstitutional laws, but also the Interstate Commerce clause.

The Interstate Commerce clause today is used to not only justify the commerce itself, but also ANYONE and ANYTHING that engages, or even pertains to or influences that commerce! So in essence, the "6 degrees to Kevin Bacon" methodology can be applied to Interstate Commerce to regulate just about anything in this life! This is a clear breach of the spirit of the Constitution.

Some in this thread may also find the facts I uncovered interesting with regard to the actual conservatism exhibited by our present Congress. If you agree that the Constitution does not serve to specify the limits of government power, but instead serves to narrowly define what few powers the government has, and everything else is prohibited to it, then based upon that criteria, I found, according to my calculations, that the average "Conservative index" of a Republican House representative is less than 43%. That is, more than 57% of the time, they voted AGAINST the Constitution and therefore against classical conservatism. (See this link for source data)

And that's from the party that supposedly respects the Constitution the most! Sad, sad times.
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