Al Franken hosted a Dean fundraiser (with Dean present) and had this to say.


Stratagem (Blog)

Free Republic (Conservative News Forum)

Dean had nothing to say in response (though I'm not sure if he applauded).

How does this reflect on Howard Dean?

About the same as Bush's silence regarding Bill O'Reilly's antics does - i.e. not at all. You can't make one person responsible for another's comments. There are extremists and nutcases in every sector of the political map. Remaining silent while a professional entertainer does their over-the-top schtick is certainly no worse than actually entertaining dictators on government property.

Edited to fix typo.

In defence of Dean, I am sure he was grinding his teeth in his chair as Franken spoke like a sailor on stage. He probably had no idea what Al was going to do or say.

Although I have not heard whether or not Dean admonished Franken for his acerbic words at the fund raiser. Has anyone else?

Unless he's hosting your fundraising dinner...

Dean had a responsibility for what went on there, his silence indicates he is either afraid to use that very basic authority (what a president that would make) or worse yet he saw no reason to.

He'd have to be pretty stupid not to know that. I don't have twenty years of education like Dean does, I haven't actually seen Franken for years, but even I could have figured out that Franken's highly likely to say something offensive the moment he gets into the limelight. Dean has plenty of defenses, but ignorance is not one of them.

Not being a big Franken fan, I haven't seen him since his SNL days, nor read any of his books. I have seen a few shows with him on, along with other political commentators, and never heard anything remotely off-color. Can anyone tell me if crude language is a staple of his in every arena except tv interviews, or was this some kind of an aberration? Maybe grandstanding for the "troops" kind of thing?


I've seen Franken say some hightly critical things of O'Reilly in the past, but I've never heard him say anything offensive. If it was an aberration, perhaps Dean was taken aback by it as well. I agree, that Dean should have said something to him afterward, in any case. Something like this, whether done by Democrats or Republicans, does nothing to further honest political discourse. If Franken disagreed with something Brit Hume said, there are certainly better ways to counter his comments than by attacking the man with profanity.

Pretty poorly. One of the most sure signs of a political idiot is one who disregards EVERYTHING the other side has to say just because they are the other side. The Democrats are right about some things and the Republicans are right about other things. If this wasn't the case then the consistently wrong party would have long since disappeared. Franken shows his radicalism by wholly dismissing the other side of the political process. It makes Dean look like an idiot too. A president has to work with both parties to get anything done and should realize that his opponents might have a good idea once in a while.

Might any of these be good ones?
I'd love to hear some.

It reflects quite well on Dean. He isn't a PR machine; he's a person. Compared to the consummate PR machine that is president Bush that's great. I don’t want an artificial president. I don't think this is a huge deal anyway. Al Franken is a comedian; comedians say things to get people to laugh.

So then it's perfectly all right to thoroughly curse out a reporter while hosting a presidential fundraiser because you don't agree with him?

There is a difference between "real" and rude. I want a president with some respect for civil discourse. I really don't care if Franken's a comedian, this wasn't a stand-up routine...

I don't think what he said was funny. He was acting immature

How this reflects Dean, it depends on if he applauded the little speech by Franken. If he didn't expect Franken to say this, then there is no problem

Finally, something we can agree on. I wonder how the people who are doing exactly that on this very thread feel about being called idiots.



To answer one one-liner with another: been there, done that. The fact that you didn't recognize it doesn't mean it wasn't shown to you.

Examples? If this is another Anne Coulter reference let's head it off at the pass, she's scum and I can't stand her. If you want to start a thread on it, no one's stopping you, this one is to discuss Franken and Dean...


1. You referenced "many" examples. So far two (one from you and one from Ranciduncle) have been mentioned. I don't think they are good, but that's what we are here to discuss. I have responded to both, anything wrong with what I said? I don't call two many...

He may be a person, but he's obviously no professional.

Anyone who allows themselves to share the stage with Al Franken obviously does not take what they are doing very seriously.

You should have quoted more of the Blog entry:



So the initial thrust of this topic may not be entirely honest here.

As for Dean: reading over the blog of his activities that day (Sept 20), he was next-to-last on the schedule and wasn't anywhere near the stage until long after Franken had finished. Perhaps he wasn't even in the room at the time to know what Franken said, so I'm not too upset with Dean because Franken used the F-word.

And Hume is an idiot for saying that.

Two words: So What?

Why is this such a big deal? Al Franken is a comedian and satirist. Who says he can only use PG-13 language around a presidential candidate? And how does this reflect upon Howard Dean?

This is right down there with William Bennett's gambling losses on the "Who Cares?" meter. Go to a fund raiser for Bush where Dennis Miller is telling the jokes and I'm sure he'll get loose on a few Democrats. Big freakin' deal.

You say you want a president with "respect for civil discourse," Turnea? Well, if Dean gets the party nomination and in his first debate with Dubya he calls him a dirty mofo or something then I guess you'll have a point.

I sure don't see one here.

I actually had a bit of an argument with myself over whether or not to do just that. I decided that it didn't matter as much as one might think (and I included the link in case anyone was interested. However, I don't believe that what Brit Hume said justifies Franken's repeated use of the F-word and other foul language to refer not simply to Hume himself but to "these people" (whoever that is...).

Franken was playing to the lowest rung of the democratic party. Whether or not what Brit Hume said was appropriate is no tparticularly relevant. Here on this forum we disagree all the time. We make statements that our opposition may consider ridiculous (I've seen some...) however, we have enough sense to remember were we are...

Franken wasn't on SNL he was at a presidential fundraiser, this wasn't the time or the place to use that kind of language. Personal attacks are rarely if ever justified, this case wasn't. Dean knew that and yet he chose to remain silent. That, to me at least, is telling.


How so? Just because Brit Hume made a questionable statement?


Oh he was there. I doesn't matter if he was on later, it's his fundraiser, meant to represent his candidacy. As I've said before, he had ultimate responsibility for what went on there. If someone had said this kind of stuff at a Bush fundraiser it would be front-page news.



Perhaps a sense of decency? Respect for the importance of fundraisers in forming the image of a campaign? Something deep inside him that tells him personal attacks at the drop of a hat are wrong? Too much to ask I know...


Let's see him call Ted Kennedy a [blank] moron and the democratic party [blank] shameless (not once, but twice) with Bush sitting and watching. You bet it would be a big deal. Wasn't Dean supposed to bring character back to the White House or something...


I believe his standing by an doing or saying nothing is basis for evaluation of his character already. Maybe I'm a prude.

In this age of modern media, conservatives birthed and perfected irresponsible, personal attack politics. I think most mainstream liberals ignored it until they realized it was losing them everything. People were actually being sold on the Newts and Rushes. Now they have finally taken up the sword and started fighting back. It's too bad in a way, because for a while they had the higher ground. This tactic might work in the short term - the way it worked for the conservative movement. In the long term, this "going for the jugular" debases the entire process. If it works, will the liberal attack dogs lay off once they are in power? The conservative "pundits" were clearly unable to. Though the Republicans control every branch of government, they have actually stepped up the attacks on anything liberal in this country. If this tactic works to get liberals in power, I can only hope that they will back off and attempt to raise the bar a bit.

I do think that careless statements like Hume's need to be attacked. This fundraiser was probably not the right place to do it.

Quarkhead,

Do you have any evidence to back this up? I'm not asking to be a pain but so often both sides of the political spectrum accuse the other side of doing things that their people would never do when, the truth is, both sides utilize the same dirty tactics.

Thanks,
M L Iserman

The event was held in a comedy club. The warm-up acts were comedians and singers. Comedians in comedy clubs do indeed use this language.




Actually, Franken was playing to a pep rally. That's what a campaign fundraiser is: the warm-up speakers bash the opposition -- and Brit Hume is definitely a shill for the opposition -- talk about what a great guy the candidate is, and ask for more money than the people paid to get in the door. The candidate then shows up, does a stump speech, shakes a lot of hands, and leaves. It's a pep rally, just like in High School, where you talk about creaming the opposing team. Big whoop, as we used to say back then



Just to check: when Bush called that NY Times reporter a "major league a**hole" (and Cheney said "Yeah, Big time"), did you write him a letter to them and get all worked up about it? Or is this level of indignation saved for warm-up acts for candidates?



But it wasn't front-page news back in 2000 when he made the "major league" gaff. But did you get all upset then? Did you NOT vote for Bush/Cheney because of it? Did you judge their characters as being not worthy then because of that?

... just not a presidential fundraisers. Unless there is another example I am not aware of. A normal stand-up routine is different from lending public verbal support to (as opposed to "for" [endorsing]) a candidate.



I don't think Hume is trying to dupe anyone, or even garner support for Bush. Hume simply believes in what he's doing, and does not support Bush unfailingly.


..and here I was think Dean was an adult. You're right about one thing, it was childish.


I'm afraid I never heard about it (though I am not at all surprised, I have thought similar things about some reporters I've seen at press conferences). As the article mentions the remark may have been meant to be a private one. If it wasn't then I see a problem. He was wrong and should have apologized. It is, however, a smaller one. If he had yelled it to a bunch of screaming fans then it would be comparable.
Interesting quote from the article (you notice there was an article, unlike some stories...)

No comment from Gore on this one...