Should the U.S. enforce the ban on hiring illegal immigrants? I need help on my papers, so far, and I have to write a report on why hiring illegal immigrants is importance.. so far all I've got is that...

Illegal Immigrants contribute to the economy, employers can pay them less than the minimum wage.

Cracking down on jobs won't help to solve the immigration problems.

The U.S. needs diversity. Kicking out illegal immigrants out from their jobs will weaken the ideology status of the United States.

Can anyone help me? I need some ideas why we shouldn't ban hiring of illegal immigrants.

Just an observation, but if your contention is that hiring illegal immigrants is okay or even desirable, but the status of the immigrants should still be illegal, you're building a case on sand.

Your position would make more sense to me if you just said that immigrants who come to America to work should be legally permitted to do so at whatever wage they want to. So, it's the policy on minimum wages and on immigration that need to change, not the policy on preventing firms hiring people who are there illegally.

It is illegal, and it is a law last i looked so the US does support it, as far as them helping the economy i don't see it, as far as them removing money from the US, turning a good job into a non-paying slave labor job, owners of these companies promoting slave labor.

When i was a kid i got paid pretty fair for doing the jobs they do now, and so would you if you were to do it, but not now you won't get paid fair.
It seemed fair to the "i'll hire you for much less because your a risk and you work for it" mentality for this to start in the 1st place, and now it's blowing up into the younger kids face who come from the US who won't work for what they are working for (just as i would also take this position today) seems the owners of these companies got greedy and put all the profit in there pocket and are forgetful of what a honest wage is and won't hire you the US citizen.
So how does illegal im's help the economy?, 70% of there money goes home and if you people only new there plans while they were here you wouldn't feel so bad for them, but it seems alot of people are above getting into the street and dealing with them and befriending them, but if they did alot of people would be screaming why isn't more being done to stop the illegals from coming into this country they do not help the economy, they help the little buisness owner get rich faster

Most illegal aliens do pay taxes...and many do not actually receive a tax return. Also the amount of money they contribute to our SS program is considered helpful too.
I have had this conversation countless times with people, and apparently my stance on the issue is not a very popular one but I feel that we should be less inhibiting and more open. I find our immigration laws do nothing but hinder free markets, harm people and their families and contribute to poverty.

What are their secret plans?

There are so many negative perceptions out there and a lot of it is perpetuated by a few groups all rolling in big money...and if you take the time to trace who these foundations are and who they get their money from it is all very disturbing.

Bucket, since we are talking about illegal aliens here, please provide some substantive proof that they are paying taxes.

Sales taxes, and the like, I can understand, but I can guarantee you that the vast majority aren't paying federal income tax, or paying into the social security fund.

Why? Because, if they are here and working illegally, they have no green card, no Social Security card, they have filled out no W-4s for with holding payroll taxes, or for paying them. In fact, they cannot by law, and employers who falsify this information can go to prison. Merely hiring illegals may get you a big fine, but you rarely go to jail for it.


How does enforcing legal immigration hider free markets? The companies in this country are still free to hire legal immigrants, or to move their businesses overseas.

The only harm to people's families I can see are those illegals that are forced to return to their country of origin, and apply for legal status. That actuallly helps the legal emtrants though, as well as families in this country looking for work.

And how does enforcing legal immigration contribute to poverty in this country? If the illegals were not here, working for substandard pay, employers would be forced to pay at least minimum wage to legal immigrants and others seeking work, raising their incomes, perhaps.

And you are forgetting the burden placed on government by illegals. In states with large populations of illegal aliens, services like healthcare and welfare are simply swamped. Public hospitals for example, cannot turn away anyone based on the ability to pay, and yet the illegals don't make enough under the table to pay for health insurance, and it's sure not being provided by the employers. So, what happens when these people get sick or injured? The hospital is forced to pick up the tab.

Schools too, suffer, because of the number of illegal's children in public schools, taking advantage of these services without paying into the tax system that pays for education. Let's face it, there aren't many illegal aliens that own property, or pay property taxes to the local school districts.

I have no qualms about allowing people to come here, seeking to make their lives better. I do have a problem with those that don't follow the rules and laws we have for getting here.

Why is the burden of proof only mine? Where is your substantive evidence that they are not paying?

Here is an article for you to read

This tax number they are talking about is used just like a SS number and thery use it to get drivers licenses and even...yes even... BUY homes.

Here is more proof for those comments I just made too...

Driver's licenses
Buying homes

I promise to address your other questions when I have more time.

What I found most interesting about the thread opening was this statement:



Did your school's teacher actually assign you a project to give reasons why it is important to hire illegal immigrants? Or did she/he ask you to take a position on the issue?

Your first link was informative, bucket, but no illegal alien has to seek or make use of such an ID anymore than they do a green card. It is neither good for our economy or our security to have unaccounted for citizens running around the country under the radar of law enforcement and possibly making a profit without contributing to taxes they may ultimately benefit from.

Not only that, but for each job they take that's one less job for an American or legal immigrant to fill. So they stand not only the chance of benefiting from taxes without contributing, they also stand to put those contributing tax dollars out of work.

I don't see a problem with immigration, but there are good reasons as to why we have an established process immigrants are required to follow. Allowing illegal immigration and the hiring of illegal immigrants only puts other citizens and our nation at risk, both economically and defensively.

People would have one believe that this is a complicated issue. It's not. You are either in this country legally or not. If you are not here legally, then you need to leave.

Politically it is a complicated issue to resolve because it involves two things which are volatile in a political discussion....money and race.

Interesting read, Bucket, but not conclusive. 5.5 million of these numbers have been issued, but not all to illegal aliens. There are plenty of legal reasons for requiring the ITIN. These legal purposes are, for example, foreign students receiving stipends as teaching assistants at universities, exchange students and visitors (such as one time lecturers in this country), and H1-B temporary workers and their dependents. Considering this probably makes up a substantial portion of those ITIN numbers issued, I still maintain that a large majority of illegals in this country are not paying federal taxes. Even if half of the ITINs were obtained by illegals, that's only about 2.75 million out of 11 million illegals (and counting, at last estimate) that are paying federal taxes. That's not a majority paying taxes, that's a majority not paying taxes.

On the SSN issue, if they are being paid under the table, or are using bogus Social Security numbers to gain employment, how does this help the social security problem in this country?
As for these illegals, and banks, etc. using the ITINs for valid identification for obtaining drivers licenses and home loans, etc.? Both they and the lenders are violating the law. From the IRS's website concerning ITINs:


As for your assertion that a majority are buying homes, let's look at the article you linked to:


If less than 50% of all immigrants (including legals) own homes, what is the percentage of illegals that are actually buying? I don't know, I couldn't find even any good guesses on the net, but I'll wager it's a much smaller percentage than even legal immigrants.

As far as illegal immigrant costs to this country, let's start with your own article:


As for some specific costs of having illegal immigrants in this country:
This Story


And then there's healthcare:

Now if that's just 24 counties in 4 states, imagine what the cost is nationwide.

By the way, I'm still waiting for proof of your assertions that enforcing legal immigration hurts free markets, or contributes to, rather than helps to prevent, poverty in this country.

In the article it stated that this ONE place of business was swamped with those trying to find out info on how to get the number....why is that? It is because they DO pay taxes and now there is a way for them to get a tax fund...something they have not been getting for years. Every illegal I have ever known has been working and living in the US by use of a fake ID. Still paying taxes and never collecting refunds.

Not to mention how exactly does one get by in the US NOT paying taxes? They tax you on everything here, I just do not believe it is possible to live here illegal or not and not have to pay any taxes.




You have information to back this up? Where are the stats that show all those out of work are out of work because some illegal immigrant has their job instead? You thank the illegals every time you purchase your fruits and veggies at the market? because it is their slave labour that allows your food to remain as affordable as it is. Why allow this black market labor to exist? Why not open it up and stop trying to fight the loosing battle of controlling immigration because you are not going to control it. Look at our borders...who do you think are the largest nationalities of illegals in this country...if you guessed Canadians and Mexicans you are correct! You think we have the resources and the money to guard every point of entry? I suppose we could come up with new employment tho...the border police...we could just have a police state and you could walk around with all your papers in order awaiting your next check point.
No this approach is anti-American...anti-business...anti-free-markets and anti-freedom.
Let us remove those millions from the workforce...somehow I do not think many of us would enjoy living in an economy suffering a labor shortage.




Obviously I am not for illegal immigrants..... I am for them not being illegal. I feel our current immigration laws/policies are harmful and in fact encourage illegal immigration and are terribly unsuccessful at controlling it. I do not understand our approach to it because it goes against everything a free enterprise is...so it is no surprise to me that we fail and that we will always fail. I just do not see how you can have a free open economic system and then turn around and have strict and complicated immigration laws. It is a major clash of policy.


And where is your substantive proof of this? Besides your two major complaints on Illegals tapping our resources are of Education and Medical. Now I have no idea about your state but in my state 90% of education costs are paid by the state...and medical costs such as medicaid are matched...and I am sure the majority of them in fact do pay medicare taxes too.
Now where do states get their taxes?...sales tax which is impossible to not pay and property tax..which even if the illegals are not home owners they probably pay in a round about way through a landlord etc.

The health care issue to me is difficult to place blame on solely the illegal immigrants themselves and I do not feel making them legal would help much. It is estimated that nearly 44 million Americans do not have med. ins. I think it is very unfair to try and pinpoint illegals immigrants as being the group that strains our medical system because unfortunately even our own countrymen are put into the same desperate situations.




Again where is your proof of these numbers? It said in the article I presented that before the tax numbers were being offered that these men and women in fact paid taxes with fake SS # sooooo that would mean they ARE paying taxes and they were not receiving refunds. I am not arguing that in 100% of the cases this is true but I do feel it is a majority because again I ask you...how does one NOT pay taxes in the US? PS...that 11 million number is considered to be on the higher range of the guess.



I do not really understand your question...they do pay money under fake numbers and the gov does collect this money and in fact KEEPS it...all of it. How does this not help the SS program? SS is the largest fed gov. expenditure and it happens to be the largest contribution immigrants make in fed. taxes. Besides I feel we should not be allowing them to remain illegal so then the employers would not need to keep them under the table.

Also I do not really understand your position on their wage earning potential. Yes most of them are poor...most of them earn little but most of them perform the low-skill labor that our country is so dependent on. Not everyone in this country can be a doctor or a lawyer. As our population gets older and more educated the need for low income workers increases. So how is an anti-immigration or tighter immigration stance NOT anti-business or free markets? See to me open trade applies to varying things from potatoes to people. People are a commodity ...their labor.

On the education...I already stated that most educational funds come from state taxes not fed. but I also wanted to touch on the fact that I find this kind of "information" VERY misleading. Because what percentage of those children are in fact AMERICAN citizens themselves? Our constitution makes no preference or requirement to your heritage...it only states that if you are born here you are a citizen of this country and you have the same rights as any other citizen. So I find it to be a terrible insult to act as if or even attempt to redefine these children as anything other than American citizens and to lead on as if they are in anyway less deserving.



No need to get pushy...as I told you I would address your other questions when I had the time.

You wanted to know why I felt poverty was an end result as well...well making it where these people can not educate themselves, drive themselves or even medicate themselves how do you not hammer them down harder with the weight of poverty?

Also your level of unemployment and the manufacturing costs of your goods and services help determine the cost of living in your country. Too low of unemployment is actually not a good thing as is too high.
Paying 10-20 dollars an hour for a low skill worker is ridiculous and the costs would be passed on to you and me and would hit the working poor the hardest. The govt purposefully turns a blind eye to these people...they make out like they are for stricter immigration laws so they appease the masses, then they take no actions to appease the economy/businesses. They willingly allow the illegals to be used..politically and economically... and offer them so little in return...in fact we make them into criminals.

Interesting point.



I would add that illegal immigrants willingly put themselves in such situations. They crossed the border by their own choice and decided to risk working here illegally.

Why should anybody offer illegal immigrants anything in return? They are here illegally and they work illegally, so why should they have any benefits?

However, I would add that enforcing the ban of illegal immigration would do little. You round them up and send them back to their country and they'll be back at it. Nothing is solved.

I find some of the information here amusing (perhaps because I agree with The Answer that this seems like it should be such a simple issue).

[QUOTE]"The majority of people here, regardless of their immigration status, want to pay their taxes and abide by the laws of this nation," says Aisha Qaasim, the legislative staff attorney at the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund in Washington. "This tax ID allows them to do that."[/QUOTE]

If they want to abide by the laws of this nation--WHY ARE THEY HERE ILLEGALLY????? That being said, I'm not against the tax ID. It is a good step in the right direction.

[QUOTE]No one knows exactly how much illegal immigrants contribute in taxes, but experts estimate it is billions of dollars. [/QUOTE]

First, that's because they're here illegally--they don't have the proper identification to be tracked. Second, if these people want to get some of whatever money they pay in taxes back, that's very simple--become a LEGAL immigrant.


[/QUOTE]It is because they DO pay taxes and now there is a way for them to get a tax fund...something they have not been getting for years. Every illegal I have ever known has been working and living in the US by use of a fake ID. Still paying taxes and never collecting refunds. [QUOTE]

Take a look at this statement again. As I said, there is a very simple solution to this problem--take the necessary steps to becoming a legal resident. What you are saying is that they are complaining because their FAKE ID gives them certain benefits (being able to work here) but not others (ability to receive a tax refund). So, they want the U.S. to fix the problem that their FAKE ID is somehow not fully functional. This is completely ludicrous.

Of course they put themselves in these situations willingly...they willingly want to work and they willingly want to provide for their families and they willingly want a better life for their children and they willingly contribute to our country, our economy and our good and services. Americans willingly hire them, willingly enjoy the fruits of their labors and willingly provide and receive a mutual advantage. So why is the law going against reality? The reality is these workers are needed, are coveted, lured and provided for in this country or else they would not be here. The reality is the laws do not provide a safe and easily accessible avenue for them to enter the country..in fact the opposite.



I think the ID number proves my point..when given the opportunity these people are MORE than willing to follow the law and the legal paths we ask of them to adhere to. Make the laws accessible..make them legal....they want to work here, we have plenty of work for them..hire them. You are right it is so simple



Well since you are the one claiming how simple it all should be and how funny it is that it is not...and then you throw this comment out. Do you have ANY idea what it is like to become a legal citizen of the United States...I do. It is not easy ...saying it is is about the easiest thing about it. Besides I do not personally think they should have to become citizens of the US in order to work here...I think we should allow them to work here legally under working visas/permits.



Who said they are complaining? I didn't. I think they probably complain very little. That is one of the reasons they are so coveted by American employers they work hard and complain little. Again I do not think every person entering this county to work needs to or even should become a legal resident/citizen. There are alternatives.

YES,THEY SHOULD ENFORCE THE BAN.THEY COME OVER HERE LOWER OUR WAGES THEN RETURN TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY TO LIVE LIKE KINGS.AMERICA ONLY SUFFERS BY LETTING THEM HAVE OUR JOBS.IF THEY WORK HERE THEY SHOULD LIVE HERE THEN IT WOULD BE EQUAL OR SHOULD I SAY LEGAL!

I think this would be an interesting idea. What would be the fallout from pursuing this?

It is more than a little ironic that while illegal immigrants, many from Mexico, scramble to get into the United States and work for substandard wages, our U.S. corporations are scrambling to leave the United States and get into countries like Mexico in order to make bigger profits by paying substandard wages.

This is ruining our country. We must send back the illegal aliens that we can and use tariffs on imported goods to protect jobs and wages here in the U.S., or we need to require these corporations to pay their workers U.S. pay scale wages if they are going to ship their goods to the United States.

What would lead you to believe that expelling illegals would have any impact on wages for legal workers? As has been said before illegals often end up doing the work that citizens simply will not do.

Moreover forcing corporations to pay all workers U.S. scale wages is not simply a matter of asking them to do so. I am all for fair-trade the world over, but consider that there will be a cost, a HUGE cost, far in excess of anything associated with Kyoto.

It doesn't that much. It is providing services for these illegals through taxes paid by people who are unemployed or underemployed that hurts us. Rather than refuse benefits like providing health care and education for the families of illegal migrants, send them back home. I don't want to see anyone deprived of services, but it's not exactly right to have taxpayers who don't have insurance themselves paying for health care for illegal aliens. That's what happens in a country without affordable, universal health coverage.

But--employers in the United States pay substandard wages to illegal immigrants because they can. If you decrease the labor pool for jobs that pay substandard wages, it becomes more difficult for these employers to get away with it. They can only perpetuate this practice when there are people willing to work for them. If they can no longer do it, they will either change the nature of the jobs or pay higher wages to get the jobs done.

As far as requiring corporations in other countries to pay U.S. level wages, you are right, it is virtually unenforceable. But it can be mentioned as an alternative to the protective tariffs that could be used to discourage U.S. corporations from moving to other countries where labor is considerably cheaper and depriving U.S. citizens of their jobs.

I know our country pursued this before..in the 1950s. I will try and dig up some info





Oh my! this made my heart skip a beat.

First off their are plenty of low skill jobs here in the US that can not possibly be exported out of the country. Construction workers, food services (which include a variety of things) sanitation, transportation, agriculture, low level health care, child care, retail on and on..and altho. we as a populace give these kind of jobs very little respect truth is we are all VERY dependent on them, and on them being performed at an affordable cost..

Now I have a few questions for you...would you be happier to allow these workers no jobs? Is the exporting of jobs to other countries always a bad thing...or can we consider this possibly a better solution than the billions we send in basic food and medical aid? I am not one to condone or even approve of what the American corps do in the border towns of Mexico...but these maquiladoras are a direct cause from tariffs being placed on imported goods from Mexico.


The NAFTA agreement has placed the Mexican farming ind exporting in jeopardy.... they can not compete with American prices and so..where would you have them go? What would you suggest they do to work and feed themselves? Did you know that Mexico was now one of the world's largest exporters? How many jobs do you think have been directly created in response to her growth as an exporter? How much has her GDP risen? Mexico is the fastest growing economy in Latin America. Is this a bad thing? Don't you think it would be a good thing for more jobs and more opportunities to exist in Mexico? Don't you feel a stronger healthier economy in Mexico would be mutually beneficial? Or do you feel we would all be better served to allow Mexico to remain a third world country..to remain in poverty?

Eventually these countries' standard of living will increase..their economies are growing and will continue to grow and their futures will improve.

That last thing is I do not really understand is how a isolationist approach would do anything but harm us. Trade is a mutual thing..as much as we enjoy the trade and use of other countries resources we also enjoy and depend on other countries' use of our own resources and trade.
Humans have been trading with one another for eons...it has always been the cornerstone of our civilizations and imo it is completely unnatural to attempt to stifle and control what humans will always be naturally seeking.

I think all you have to do is look around the world at what countries do not allow others' ideas, products, resources and goods to flow freely into their borders to get a good idea as to how severely this harms civilizations.



Well I have been asking and not one person has yet to offer anything up but I will ask again...where is your proof that illegals do not pay taxes here in the US? I already explained that in my state education is paid by 90% state taxes..from sales and property taxes... and I am unaware of how being illegal would allow anyone to avoid sales or property tax? Unless of course we are referring to those living in the US as slaves ...but that is just one more ugly that exists thanks to our immigration policy...besides I do not think slaves are free to wonder around going to school or visiting the doctor.


Yes it is called a labor shortage and I would seriously like to see some proof that this would be in any way beneficial to our country. I have to completely disagree with you on this and your prediction of it's effects


Why should they!? They have no where near our cost of living so why on earth should they be burdened with the costs of our labor!? Besides it bothers you than use your consumer power and boycott, refuse or campaign against those corps you feel are being abusive to this issue. Currently our gov gives a tax cut to off shore ops..it is something that is being fought by the EU in the WTO..but I am uncertain the WTO will have much more leverage anymore..it kind of broke. I am torn on this issue but I do not agree with your own comments. It is nowhere near as simple as you seem to feel it is.
The manufacturing sector in the US has been loosing jobs for over 30 mos. in a row now...I just do not see these jobs ever coming back.
What no one bothers to ever mention is that these corps moved their ops out of the US in order to save their own global competitiveness, growth, and corp. profit..ohhh I said corporate profit the evil of all evil concepts..but truth is the recession of our current economy has been hindered by one and one thing only corporate investment. It is what Greenspan is always complaining about.
Corps make more money they spend more money, they have more mngrs, offices, and more employees in those offices. They buy more cell phones and corp cars..give bigger bonuses and then Bob and family can take a holiday or buy that new car or house. I don't know about you but...I am more for Americans having better jobs like Bob's with the cell phone and the company car and the quarterly bonuses and the holidays to Disneyworld. I think the country does better and so does Bob and his family then if Bob was working in some manufacturing co making sneakers for 14 bux an hour which in return had made the price of the same sneakers Bob makes so high that he can not even afford to buy a pair for his son.

Firstly, UJ is correct in saying that immigrants coming into california from Mexico and further south DO the work that no american adult wants to do.

Living in sandiego, I have yet to see any other group other than illegals who will garden. meaning do yard work, cutting grass, weeding, etc. They are on all of the farms here. they work as janitors and housecleaning. they have these jobs wrapped up. why? we won't do it.

The money they make here they take home and due to the MUCH lower standard of living than Americans are used to, they get more with the money they earn in the states.

Life in mexico is not life in so california. what is needed to live here is many times more than the average mexican needs to live. It's all relative.

The idea that corporations are paying substandard wages is interesting. Substandard by whose standard?

Illegals unfortunately do provide a service in this country. They really should be made to become citizens or at least have work visas.

The US government SHOULD enforce the ban on illegal aliens. We have no control on who's who in this country and not only are illegals bad for our economy, welfare systems and job markets but they are also a detriment to our national security.

The US/Mexico immigration thing is weird....when US economy is booming, Mexcian immigrants are welcomed, to provide workers for all the new jobs spaces being created. When the economy is not doing well, they're generally deported. If you look at the years when Mexicans were deported, they tend to be in years of economic recession. (Ref: Operation Gatekeeper by Joseph Nevins)

And I'll tell you this, you are never going to be fully aware of who is in your country and whether or not there is a security risk without implementing measures which seriously damage people's rights....

I'm sorry Billy Jean, but do you have any proof that illegals are bad for the economy? There is evidence that they drain health-care and other services, but I've never seen anything approaching proof that they are bad for the economy. How can people with jobs be bad?

Bucket:

I do not claim to understand the economy in any helpful way. However, I still find it ironic that while jobs are being shipped out of the country, illegals are sneaking in.

Michigan is my home state. We have been losing so many industrial jobs, especially in western Michigan. We have people going to Wal-Mart, McDonalds, etc. to work jobs where they don't make half of what they used to make. These employees go without health insurance because they cannot afford it. They are trying to make payments on homes all the same, and the property taxes do not go down. This is happening all over the country.

(What about computer jobs? Bright young adults from technical schools in India take them here in the United States. They are imported. But you'd better believe that these foreign workers have their green cards and all other documentation handy and up-to-date. These are computer jobs that United States citizens are trying to acquire. Companies these days are only concerned about the bottom line, not the United States workforce.)

We have a government that has conservatives currently in control. These conservatives bad-mouth those who are not conservative who push for greater, more universal access to health insurance in particular. These conservatives want to cut the legs out from under the public education system rather than bolster it financially.

The education system and health services should be available to all (including illegal immigrants and their families); that is a liberal concept. I am a liberal. Barring this present government from supporting these programs grouped under "supporting the general welfare" in the preamble to the Constitution.

When we cannot guarantee that the needs of the legal citizenry will be met, how in hell are we going to guarantee that the pool man, the gardner, the worker in the fields, the maids, and the day care workers who aren't here legally will receive what they need to function productively and not get sick???? It sounds like the nursery rhyme, "There was an old woman who lived in a shoe, had so many children she didn't know what to do. So she gave them some broth without any bread, whipped them all soundly and put them to bed."

Why aren't the affluent providing some insurance for these employees if they are needed so badly? Because they like the cheap labor and don't want to assume any responsibility for their fellowman if they don't have to.

What would YOU suggest be done???? And, do you think it would be effective? You know, it's pretty easy to shoot someone else's opinion down, but not so easy to come up with something both feasible and fair.

Sure, let's keep the illegals coming in---Welcome them with open arms--especially when those who can afford to help will not lift a finger to improve their life circumstances.

(Edited to add: Why don't these illegals work to make their own countries better places to live rather than abandoning them? Pull their own countries up by the bootstraps? Perhaps they can find jobs in the U.S. companies that are moving to their countries.)

And exactly where is the money for this strict enforcement going to come from?...damn those logistics.
Just theorizing here...but don't you think if we made some kind of legal channel for those who wish to enter our country solely to work here and contribute to our economy and quality of life it would make the job of detecting those who wish to enter our country in order to inflict harm on us easier? Less of a demand for illegal entry into our country would equal less of the pursuit, providing and enterprising of services for gaining illegal entry into our country. Illegal transport of people is a pretty big black market industry right now....why is that?





I honesty do not understand what your comments have to do with illegal immigration Paladin. Only connection I can make is you somehow feel the richest country in the world does not have the capacity to provide for it's current and predicted population..and that you feel illegal immigration is in someway hindering this ability ...am I getting this right?

I am also getting the feeling from your post that you are a supporter of a some kind of national health service for the US. Yet you are against the rise of property taxes. How do you expect your gov to maintain all these extras you want without taxing you and your fellow countrymen..legal or not..for them?

And we have had a government with Liberals in control and that never got us a national health service either...what is your point on that? Did you know that Bush and his conservative gov has in fact made the largest increases in our fed medicare program since the 1960s ...Bush may call himself a conservative..but he does not act like one. But your right he was plenty bad mouthed for that by the conservative crowd.

I am also curious if you have ever lived in the US afflicted with poverty? I say afflicted because being poor is a horrible thing...but I am very thankful than when I happened to live the life of a pauper I lived here in the US because not only (contrary to your own beliefs) was I fully cared for in re: to my medical needs..so was my child and to top it all off my family was allowed to reinvent ourselves into the ever lush and ever comfy middle class of America...all of which is a life that would not be possible in most parts of our world.

America is far more of a welfare state than she is ever given credit for...not to mention a fine provider.




Your right...it is because they don't have to. Market decides that one and it dictates what employment is worthy of having the additional value of free or assisted medical care attached. Can't make your rent and care for your family working at Mc Donald's then maybe Mc Donald's is not the right career choice for you. In all honesty the LAST thing I want to see happen in my country is the perpetuating of the belief that a basic hourly job at Mc Donald's is one our society should covet and reward.




Well I would suggest that we keep moving foward with this whole free market thing we have going on. Seems to be working fairly well so I feel pretty secure in making that suggestion.

Paladin...do you honestly believe that the illegals who come to our country from places like Mexico are not having their life circumstances improved?

Yep.



Oh, I'm sure they are having their life circumstances improved. A low wage here buys a lot of things in Mexico. It also comes out of the U.S. economy and enriches Mexico's.

What I am railing against is greed--the pursuit of the almighty profit for which people are laid off and those who remain are given twice or three times as much to do with the expectation that their productivity will not suffer. I am railing against the flight of corporations into countries where they can pay less to the workers, observe fewer safety regulations, and pollute the air and water with impunity. I am against corporations firing long-time, faithful employees to hire temps so they do not have to pay pensions. I am against these same corporate types who say that Social Security ought to be eliminated while they deprive these employees of their deserved pensions.

And I am against the types who can afford to have people with green cards be their nannies, housekeepers, pool men and gardeners, but hire illegals so they don't have to pay into Social Security on their behalf.



Who opposed them? The "compassionate conservatives." An oxymoron.

And yes, I have known poverty firsthand, but I did not qualify for welfare because we were "making too much." It was that netherworld of "not making it" but "making too much to be qualified for assistance." The WIC program I was able to benefit from, though.


What gave you the idea that I oppose the raising of property taxes so long as there is a good reason? What I oppose is depriving our workforce of the ability to pay those property taxes.

No, I do not think that McDonald's employees should necessarily be paid more.
But what makes you think that these people who go to work for McDonald's after being laid off from a decent job for which they were qualified to work would willingly CHOOSE McDonald's over anything other than NOT WORKING???

Don't like the job at McDonalds? Okay, just go get another!! Our state cannot even afford to have unemployment counselors to take the applications from the people who have lost their jobs in this recession! "Let them eat cake..."



WORKING FOR WHOM? Working "fairly well" compared to what? Sources, please. And how does the free market help with our continual problem of illegal immigration?

Again, just how does letting illegal immigrants work in the U.S. while our own people are without gainful income and our own states' budgets are stretched to the max HELP our country?

I have asked several times and another poster has also now asked of you also to please provide some proof of this...something....anything ??





Of those millions of illegals working here in the US a large number of them just so happen to live here too. Where is your proof that their contributions of labor is not enriching America's economy? Where is your proof that their wages do not purchase things here in America...and where is your proof that they are not paying taxes?


None of this has anything to do with illegal immigration.




Exactly how does an illegal immigrant get out of paying property tax? Again how is your complaint connected to illegal immigration?



And your state is the definitive and only employment situation in the US? They can't move somewhere maybe? This is one of the pros that is often applied to immigrant populations..their mobility. I understand the manner I was raised is different from the norm of most Americans and being an immigrant myself my family has never had a home town in the US but I still find the attitude that the jobs must come right to you..to your door step ...archaic.



What do you mean sources please...where have your sources been..and it is not like I haven't been asking. What exactly do you want sources of? Of how a free economic system works better than a govt controlled economic system? Well how about we use the cold war example...who ruled supreme in that little contest? Or let us take a look at Europe's economy and the strength, growth and employment levels compared to the US? What Europe is predicted to have maybe possibly a half of a precent of growth? And what are the numbers of unemployment in Germany....double digits isn't it?

Liberal..hardly. A liberal is one who believes in reform. One who opposes authoritarian beliefs and abhors bigotry in any form. I can not think of anything more authoritarian or intolerant than the belief that we must regulate control and repress free movement of people based solely on the condition of their birth.

Our country does not have the will to provide for its population. That is what I feel. Our country is all too willing, however, to pour money into war while social programs at home suffer. To document that, I would have to point you to the national budget, which is posted in other threads. Otherwise, I could only cite columnists such as Molly Ivins to back up my feelings. Lo siento.

Whether or not you think I am a liberal is not my problem. Even liberals see that the influx of illegal immigrants is problematic. I don't like to see people cutting in line ahead of others who have been waiting longer. I see you haven't designated your politics but are willing to tell me what mine are not.

You may pick apart my postings as you wish, but in the end, you can no more prove that the free market system is working for America's citizens than I can prove to you that our government is severely corrupt and that politics has taken precedence over the needs of the people.

I do not care if you are an immigrant or not. I hope you are here legally. Do you not think that "illegal" just might mean that there were laws enacted to protect our own people? Do you think these laws were merely a whim?

The great United States of America is indeed wealthy. But it lacks the will to provide for all of its inhabitants health care, education, and living wages. But don't look to blame the liberals--look to the "compassionate conservatives" and their ilk who see "free markets" as a panacea.

So off topic but out of curiosity..if you feel so strongly that our gov. is so severely corrupt why would you entrust the gov to have more control over your life? Isn't this a bit of a conflict?

And no worries....just because one is an immigrant it does not mean they are here illegally.
They estimate that around 32 million people living in America are foreign born..and if we remember from earlier there is approx. 8 million illegal immigrants said to be in the US so it actually makes the chances of being a LEGAL immigrant far greater than being an illegal one. Although I am not suprised you assumed otherwise.

My parents were Canadian. Dad had dual citizenship; Mom had her green card. So do enlighten me about legal immigrants.

This thread, as you are so eager to remind me, is about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

I say, Send them back home.

(If you want to know about what I would do to change our corrupt government,
PM me. Just because a government is corrupt doesn't mean it cannot be changed, even for the better. Indeed, my position is not as contradictory as you have implied.)

In addition, NAFTA stinks and should be repealed. I hope you were not laboring under the delusion that I am for it. Why would a Protectionist be for it?

You said:

You also said:--Yes, I was referring to what you had previously written...

I have asked but will ask again...where is the money for such a strict enforcement of this going to come from?




Oh no worries there I had no delusions at all that you were for any kind of free trade or free trade agreements. NAFTA is in fact the North American FREE TRADE Act.
Yet I did point out before in this debate that I found your complaints about the substandard pay that the jobs of the off-shore American corps to be a contradiction. The maquiladora in the border towns in Mexico were created as a direct result of anti-free trade practices of tariffs on imports.
The main reason NAFTA is not working as well as it should is because of the protectionist policies that each country still practices.

I just happened to live in a country with archaic and isolationist trade practices...it is like living in a communist country. There were days when you would go to the food market and NO MORE bread would be available to buy. Or I would have to pay 70 USD for a pair of shoes for my child and I had but only two shoe stores to choose to do my shopping at. The main store...and I mean the one and only in many towns... was like a state run operation and just about everything for sale in that store just happened to be that stores brand..that was it..that was your choice their brand and only their brand. There were TWO grocery store chains..two and they had separate retail contracts with separate food makers..as in Pepsi could only be bought at one store and pellegrino could only be bought at the other.

Edited to add:
Also everyone I knew..because we lived close to two separate country's borders.... would do any of their major shopping... some even went weekly for their food shopping too... in one of those two countries. Many left the country to food shop, clothes shop, shoe shop and furniture shop because the prices were much lower...the selection was much better and the shopping centers were much nicer.


So I think I just may have a better idea as to what your ideas actually mean in real life...and that last thing I would ever want to see happen to the United States of America would be that

It seem ridiculous to take about unemployment and know that over 10,000,000 jobs are taken in this country by illegal aliens. These people are criminals and should NOT be here.

When are we going to get serious and seal our borders. The border to the south is a wide open invitation to terrorists as well. We need to do something about it now.

I personally do not buy the “illegals do work Americans would not do” line. If you have ever been to So. CA or Texas you know this is just not true. Plenty of good construction and manufacturing jobs go to illegalls and it is just not right for legal immigrants and the country as a whole.

Where did you get this 10 million number from? Just curious. Thanks.

I believe the question was : Should the U.S. enforce the ban on hiring illegal immigrants.

That is not even a question to debate. The word "illegal" is proof enough that it is against the law and should be enforced. But maybe the companies wanting to hire illegals below the minimum wage and wanting to take advantage of their situtation is a reason this is "winked" at. Walmart has already been in the news concerning this and no doubt there are lots of other companies doing the same thing.

Enforce the law or change the law. Simple.

If we have $87 billion to send to Iraq,surely goodness we can find a measly 1 billion or so for this problem in enforcing the law.

Perhaps it is not being enforced even though it is law because it is not possible to enforce and still retain the type of government we desire, the quality of life we enjoy and the cost of living we demand? The law essentially states that an employer may not knowingly hire an illegal ...but again we see a clash in our mentality on this because there are also laws in our country which prohibit an employer from asking about an employee's nationality.

The ban on hiring illegal immigrants is in fact quite new-ish. Prior to 1986 it was not illegal to hire and employ an illegal immigrant.

1 Billion? That is a very very low estimate. Bush wanted 11 billion and he was just concerned with terrorists.

In 1994, when I was a new hire for a medical job, I was told I had to furnish three pieces of identification, at least one of them with a picture, in order to work for the corporation, so it's really not that new. These pieces of identification had to be of an official nature, such as drivers license and birth certificate.

I worked at Wal-Mart for over 3 years. I had to furnish them with three separate pieces of identification to prove my citizenship. I don't know if Wal-Mart specifically asked the maintenance company involved if they hired illegals, but the company should have known. I do not know how far the lawsuit is going to go. But it brings up an important point.

In the last few months, the Wal-Mart in which I worked let go its in-store maintenance department in favor of outsourcing. The maintenance workers, those who are still working there, are working as stockers. Those staffers I have had a chance to talk to are pretty bitter about it, but they're working.

But once again, cutting corners takes precedence over loyalty to employees. And, surprise! surprise! There were illegals in the company that came in under the price of in-store maintenance staff--no benefits, bonus for Wal-Mart!

This is how it hurts legal workers in this country.

If you reread my post I said in 1986 congress enacted the laws that put all this into effect. It is called the IRCA ..Immigration Reform and Control Act. This made it a requirement for those applying for jobs to show proof of their right to work in the US and the right for the gov to penalize those employers who did not follow through on this.

So prior to 1986..what? What happened? Was the country in an all our frenzy of hiring illegals?

I also brought up the point that we have laws in this country...prior to 1986 that prohibited an employer from discriminating their hiring based on nationality. Don't you feel these two laws conflict one another? Congress did that is why they added anti-discrimination provisions in the law. What a mess to have to sort through in order to give someone a job.

Allow me to share another personal story of mine..I lived in a country where company "loyalty" is forced upon the populace by means of required legal contracts of employment. My husband was locked in on a 2 yr contract for a company that was falling to pieces financially and had become a nightmare to work for..many employees were not even getting paid..and we feared this for ourselves. He had to wait till his contract was up in order to leave..or hope to find an employer that wanted him badly enough to buy out his contract. So you might think this would be an awesome leverage for employees to have..but often in reality restrictions are restricting to everyone

I think the thread was supposed to be about foreigners in the United States illegally and whether the U.S. should enforce the existing ban.

I'm sorry about your husband's situation in Country "X." In this country, when a contract is broken, there are legl remedies available to compensate the wronged party provided the legal criteria are met. I don't know about your former country--no information.

Regardless, we are talking about the situation in the United States and how illegal aliens in the workforce have a negative impact on workers who are here legally and have to make a living.

Right and that is why in my prior reply I mentioned the IRCA....the personal story was just an added bonus



So why don't the legal Americans who hire and profit and benefit from employment of illegal workers matter? What about their rights to work and provide and make a living? There are many people who hire and create jobs and many of them are not monoliths like walmart and actually find it very difficult to deal with the many requirements and complexities our gov has restricted them with.


I am also interested to see substantive proof of how illegal immigrants have a negative impact on the economy and employment here in the US. One situation in a walmart in Michigan hardly should ever be considered enough evidence for how and why we should handle the immigration policies of our entire country.

To quote George Borjas who happens to be the champion of the anti-immigration groups...


You seem pretty concerned about corporate greed in re: to this issue...what about consumer greed?

Consumer greed most certainly enters in. That's why we need to learn where our goods are coming from and who is manufacturing them. As long as we support corporations that do not follow the rules and undercut their workers, we are part of the problem. Perhaps a boycott is in order.

What also enters in, however, is that it is not consumer greed in all cases but necessity that causes people to shop in stores where prices are significantly lower. Their income stretches further that way. Perhaps they can have some ground beef with their macaroni and cheese if they are careful in their spending.

It's the greed at the top, the execs who feel no guilt about laying off workers in order to get a higher profit and a big bonus at the end of the year who ultimately make the decisions to cut wages, lay off, wink at the use of possible illegal alien contract workers, or move the company out of the country.

You mentioned what happened to your husband in the unknown country. I mentioned what happened to Wal-Mart maintenance workers which related directly to a story about illegal maintenance contract workers which made the national news. My account is at least as valid as yours as it has been documented. And it didn't just happen in Michigan.

Corporate attorneys are experts in just how far to push the envelope before they actually break the law. This amoral attitude is a big problem. I sincerely hope that those who violate the law in their hiring and payroll practices pay for it.

Yes, I agree that the greed of the companies is reason Walmart used contractors that used illegals. Of course, Walmart knew that they were illegals. That is one of the reasons that they can offer lower prices in all their stores, not just in Michigan as one debater spoke about.

I wonder if poor Sam Walton is turning over in his grave about now.

Having a legal immigrant as a spouse, I am a tad am a little bit bitter about the ease of gaining benefits and jobs for illegals. We had to sign affidavits of support, and unless I abused her or something, she has no ability to access welfare or anything like that. That is fine, it is just the principle that someone breaking the law has more access to goverment programs than someone going by the book! Also, if my cousin wished to come to high school here, we would have to pay 8000 bucks a year in tuition to go to a public school, plus show proof of health insurance provided by me, his sponsor.

I think the laws need to be enforced in a draconian fashion, if just to keep the citizenship and green card a valuable thing, and to prevent access to our benefits systems by poeple that should have no access to them whatsoever.

I recently moved to San Diego from Maryland. In Maryland, most people mow their own lawns. In San Diego, I haven't met one person who owns his or her own lawn mower. Why? Because there are Mexican Illegal immigrants who will work landscaping jobs at minimal wages, therefore I can afford to have my lawn mowed for me. If there were no illegal immigrants "stealing" jobs from Americans, would there be some Americans mowing my lawn? It would cost me twice as much to have my lawn mowed for me, so I would end up buying my own lawn mower like I did in Maryland.

And I said this pages ago..if this is how you feel the more appropriate measure would be to use your consumer powers...rather than asking the gov to intervene... because I think it is quite obvious that the IRCA is an utter failure...and imo the IRCA will never be able to be implemented in a free, open and market driven society.



And how will controlling immigration legal or illegal help them? Immigration.. illegal or not... has no major effects on wages or employment.



I already explained my personal story was just an added bonus I gave to give my post a little flavor. My comments on that were never meant to be taken as proof for my argument...I offered the Borjas quote for that...and if you really want me to bore you I can pull up heaps more of articles, studies and blabberings that say the same thing.

The walmart event...what was it 300 employees ? Out of an estimated 8 million. How much do you think in resources and money those 300 will cost us to process, give a fair trial/hearing and then rid ourselves of? You already said you did not believe our gov has the will to provide the monetary means for American's basic health needs...what makes you think they have the will or even the ability to take on this massive expenditure. The one question I keep asking and keep getting ignored on is this...where is the money going to come from? Where even is the ability to process and relocate 8 million people going to come from? And for what?...the trail of tears revisited?

We can not ensure that our policies that we take on as a country united will benefit and be for the better of each independent city, county or state. Some states and cities are far more heavily burdened with our current approach to immigration while others benefit. Yet I believe there is a balance. Not to mention immigration is a world wide phenomenon and altering policies in your country alone is really not going to have any major effect.


Oh because we all know walmart alone dictates what price goods in our country sell for. American consumers are probably the greediest creature known to this earth. Corporations...contrary to some's beliefs...exist to serve the consumer and exist only because the consumer allows them to...they only mirror and echo and answer to our demands as a nation. The American people say they don't want immigration..legal or illegal..but their actions in the market show a completely opposite desire.



No offense but ...duh ...following the law is often more difficult than not following the law because you have to adhere to the rules and regulations which are becoming mind boggling in this country. Your wife is rewarded tho...she is here legally and she is not a criminal. She has no fears or worries about being deported for working, or about not being a represented citizen of the US...assuming she is naturalized. ?
The ban on her access to welfare is pretty new too...1996 I believe..and it was enacted as a response to the MASS numbers of immigrants who in fact were taking advantage of America's welfare system. There was in fact a book published and distributed that was very popular outside of the US that basically told and instructed an individual as to how to get into the US and live off of welfare.

The example with your cousin that is the case from county to county where I am..even as an American citizen I have to pay money to send my children to a public school outside my county...and huge numbers of people violate this here where I live. We have one school district that in particular outshines all surrounding ones and they claim to suffer financially because of resident fraud...and this is just an issue between counties.



Well I disagree I see no reason why every person who wants to live and work in the US needs to become a naturalized or permanent resident.



I actually like smeliot's example of jobs being taken away from Americans...the job of maintaining your own yard..which in return is creating more jobs by creating the possibility for the demand for this service to exist. Outsourcing is merely extending the market's possibilities.

Reason? Because, and this is just off the top of my head here, it's illegal to do otherwise! Maybe you see no reason for it, but somebody must have thought there was a good reason. Why else have the law? Somebody has to establish limits on who can enter, under what circumstances, etc. It can't simply be left up to each individual to decide whether or not he will follow the law. If that happened, why bother to make laws concerning anything?

And if you are so set against the law as written, why not run for office, and then try to get it repealed? Personally, I don't think you'd have a snowball's chance in Miami of changing it, but that's just me.

Niteguy...

I think you must have misunderstood my intentions with my comments...I just don't understand why someone who wants to come work and live in the US needs to be made to engage in a lifetime commitment to this country..or why this country needs to make such a commitment in return. Maybe their circumstances make it best for them to only be here 3-6 mo a yr...why not? I wish we focused more on providing legal channels for those who want to work. Like work permits or migrant visas or something like this. Everyone coming here to work does not need to be a citizen or permanent resident...we should be pushing other options.



I don't understand your point? Isn't that just the way it is...aren't we all as individuals left to decide if we will follow the law?


Why do I have to run for office in order to participate in my government and advance my ideals? I don't tho the boys in the GOP pushed for a bill that will hopefully pass and that will legitimize migrant workers. It is called the Agricultural Job Opportunity, Benefits and Security Act if you are interested in looking it up.

I'm glad to see someone paid attention in Economics class!
It's the greed of the consumer (although in reality "intelligent shopping") that has made Wal-Mart so successful. Wal-Mart’s huge buying power allows them to demand almost any price they want from manufacturers. These manufacturers must cut costs to meet this price and stay afloat. Most decide to save on labor by outsourcing to third world countries where there are people literally dying to work. They may only get paid $4 a day, but in their country it's enough to feed their family.
Not all manufacturers go this route. My Father owned a clothing manufacturing company up until about three years ago. He didn't want to shift over to foreign labor. Even though he only sold to small specialty stores, competition is still dog-eat-dog. To survive, he was forced to send most of his work to contractors that worked out of "sweat shops". I worked for my dad for a while and visited these so-called "sweat shops" on many occasions. It was basically a small Chinese family owned wherehouse full of illegal Mexican immigrants in South Central LA (how's that for diversity ). These Mexicans usually worked 12+ hours a day and some of the work was done by the Chinese family members who all worked out of their home(s). These were some of the nicest people I have ever met. They may not have been paid as much as legal US residence, but believe me they were very grateful for what they got. This contractor was eventually discovered and shut down. Most of them were probably deported or left jobless in the US.
As I stated earlier, my dad USED to own a clothing company. He should have been "greedy" and contracted foreign work. His patriotic mistake forced him to leigh off his employees.
Pretty soon there will be a crack down on American companies that outsource to "under-paid" foreign labor. You know, the ones that get $4 a day. Since Americans still demand low prices, American manufacturers will go under and be forced to layoff all their employees while foreign exporters prosper. What then? Impose tariffs on incoming goods? Then foreign companies won’t be able to afford to do business with us. Their country’s economy will go down the drain and they will be unable to purchase anything from the US. Then what? Close our borders and become self-sufficient? It worked for the Soviet Union, right?

My neighbor wants all illegal immigrants deported back to Mexico, but at the same time he doesn't want to have to mow his own lawn.

I guess I'm just trying to say: You can't have your cake and eat it too. Next on Jenny Jones!