Ok, folks, let's air it out:

What's "Un-American" or "Anti-American" mean? It's a charge that gets tossed around liberally by conservatives these days... usually when someone disagrees with Bush Administration foreign policy.

So what's the charge really mean? That people disagree with the administration? That they "hate America first"?

I've never understood why "un-American" is a pejorative. "Un-" as a prefix is no more strong than "non-", and has more or less the same meaning. To me, "unAmerican" is a perfectly acceptable state, meaning that someone is something other than an American. I am British, therefore I am un-American. that kind of thing.

The usage only seems to work in contrast to "anti-American" to mean "things that Americans just don't do" rather than "things that are actively hostile or damaging to America".

To my knowledge, every nation is aware of people and ideas that are "pro-" or "anti-" their nation. Oddly, this seems to be milder when Latinized in terms like "Anglophile, Francophile, Sinophobe" - none of which carry the same certainty or absolutism of "pro-" and "anti-". Also, oddly, perhaps just because of clunky construction, nobody talks about "Americophiles" or "Americophobes".

But I've never heard of anywhere outside the US talking about "un-" their nation. I can't imagine anyone ever being called "un-British" or "un-French", for example.

I was un-American and anti-American once.

Now I'm reformed!



Um, edited for clarification: "We're all Republicans now!" - Garrison Keillor

I would like to defend conservatives and Republicans here, seems that nobody else is. The Anti-American comment is not thrown around by conservatives to people who don't like Bush, it just isn't true. Everyone's sense of Anti-Americanism is different, so to generalize it like that is unrealistic. Everyone has their own definition of Anti-Americanism, so why try to generalize a whole ideology's beliefs?

CP

"UnAmerican" and "Anti-American" is just thrown around by idiots who are very gung ho about Bush. It's a Post-9/11 type of a syndrome. I'm all for Bush on some things but not on others. That's why i have the Independent "label" under my surname under "Politics"

People need to stop calling people "Unamerican" and "Anti-American" because they hate Bush

Being called un-American or un-patriotic is nothing new. Those people are simply following the model taught by another great leader (/sarcasm off):

Amen GoAmerica, thanks for those words.

I was raised by my parents to be a conservative Republican and was that until some events in politics changed my outlook. I remember my friends calling anyone else with a different opinion than the Republicans, with names like Un-American and Anti-American. I said to my friends that other people have a right to their view. Their reply was:You are either with us or against against, and if you are against us you are *#(*)#$_@. Get my drift?

That was when I started to thinking something was wrong with my friends thinking and I did some soul-searching. Hence, I decided to be a independent.

Now I am a independent and I get bashed as an Un-American almost every day, just because I disagree with a certain party and have different views.

For instance, this comment from another debate on AD:



Enough said,I rest my case.


--------------------

Why indeed?

Why is it that on a Google search over the last several hours I could find not one current reference to liberals calling conservatives un-American, anti-American, traitors, etc.

I sure could find the opposite, though. No problem at all. From Rush Limbaugh, to Sean Hannity to Ann Coulter, to everyday conservatives and/or Republicans, calling liberals/Democrats un-patriotic, un-American, Traitors.
Don't think so? Take this quote from Ann Coulter, at an address to the Conservative Political Action Conference:

And that was actually tame for her. Or how about this quote from David Horowitz?

So, why do conservatives try to generalize a whole ideologies beliefs as anti-American? Is every citizen opposed to the war really a communist sympathizer? Are all liberals truly un-American traitors? You'd surely think so by the rhetoric from the conservatives. Now I'm not saying conservative are labeling liberals as un-American for disliking Bush. Not at all. Seems like they need no real reason whatsoever to do it, other than the fact that they are liberals.

By the way, for sources for my assertions, these are a few of the websites I found while looking for any cites of liberals calling conservatives un-American:

Free Republic
FrontPageMag
NewsMax
FrontPageMag

This will be controversial but......

Here's how you can tell if you're Un-American.

First, what's your Party affiliation? If it's anything but Republican... That's Un-American.

Next, are you Conservative? If so that's even more Patriotic if you're also a Republican.

Are you Anti-American? I don't know, have you been siding up with the french on international issues.....That's anti-American.

I don't see anyone but rightwingers calling their political opponents traitors. From HUAC on it has always been the right wing that will call their opponents un-American traitors.

Right wingers use the term un-American, or traitors in the same fashion that left wingers use the terms bigots and racist. There truth or accuracy in the majority of instances. Both sides sling mud at the other and hope something will stick.
In the end it seems to just get both sides dirty.

Conservative values, beliefs and loyalties are all American values, beliefs and loyalties. They are in tune with the principles on which this nation was created. Even liberals realize this, so why would they call conservatives anti-American?

The elitist liberals are interested in only one thing. Power. And they will stop at nothing in their efforts to regain it. Including risking the safety and security of the very nation they live in. The memo from the Senate Intelligence Committee that has surfaced today is just another example of this.

This happens to me a lot. I don't think I'm "anti-American". I'm pro-American in my view. I'm sorry, whenever I defend the US constitution and Bill of rights, I'm "anti-American" liberal sticking up for the "terrorists".

Wow. That's certainly an elitist view you have of conservatives.

One of us is being ironic. I'm sure of it.

Funny, Passion51, I keep finding these principals, on the internet, listed as Liberal Values:

Justice
due process / protection against unreasonable search and seizure / rule of law / right to a speedy public trial by a jury.
Equality
equal protection of the law / social equality / equal employment opportunity / equal housing opportunity
Individual Rights
life / liberty / freedom of press / freedom of speech

It looks like what you're saying is that regardless of the truth, you see all liberals as having never contributed anything to the society in which we now live, because those values are, each and every one, diamtrically opposed to "American values"?
Do you honestly believe this, or are you just trolling? Because if you do believe this, then you are making amf's, and my point. That it doesn't take anything other than a different point of view for more than half of this country to be considered un-American by conservatives.


JL, that's not controversial, it's just plain bull....
The only Patriots are conservative Republicans? I spent four years in the Air Force so you can run illegal liquor and cigars through your apartment, and you have the gall to call me un-American? You wouldn't know a true patriot if he came up and kicked you in the rear-end.

In case it's escaped your attention, the reason this country was founded the way it was, was so that differing ideas could be heard, discussed, debated, and decided on.

I consider the ability to question my government on anything not just a right, but in fact, a patriotic duty. I don't believe in blindly following any given administration just because they are in power. And being a moderate, that means I question the left as well as the right. But I'll be hanged if I'll have half the people in this country call me un-American because I don't follow their party line. If you enjoy one-party rule so much, might I suggest you re-investigate germany in 1939, or maybe the Soviet Union any time after WW2? We've already seen where that kind of thinking leads.

I will have to say one thing. Just when you think you have seen everything, here comes a statement telling me and a large segment of the population that if we aren't Republican we are un-american. I would like to see you present that at a real debate at a real college. You would be lucky to last 1 minute. I have never seen a statement so---I can't even find a word to describe it. I don't know whether to laugh or take a statement like that seriously.

In fact you are sitting in as judge and jury on millions of americans(or should I say un-americans

I guess you would have to call one of our most intelligent americans,Benjamin Franklin a un-american. Because he was ambassador to France and visited and live there after his ambassadorship. In fact if you know any history,the French saved our &*#$() at yorktown. Or have you forgotten that. And they based their French Revolution against their king on our American revolution. How soon some people forgot.

I sat here trying to imagine how someone can think as you do, and I come up with a blank.
I hope my mind is never so biased and hateful to call someone un-american. I might suggest you read something or think twice on an issue,but I don't believe I could ever call anyone un-american just because you disagree with me. Being able to disagree and have another view point is what America is about and WHAT IT WAS FOUNDED UPON.

This nation was founded by people who were persecuted because of religion,etc. Now some people are turning around and doing the same thing here.

And oh yes the definition of liberal from Mr. Webster:

1lib•er•al \"li-brel, -be-rel\ adj [ME, fr. MF, fr. L liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, fr. liber free] 1 : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts 2 : generous, bountiful 3 : not literal 4 : not narrow in opinion or judgment : tolerant; also : not orthodox 5 : not conservative — lib•er•al•i•ty \'li-be-"ra-le-te\
n — lib•er•al•ize \"li-bre-'liz, -be-re-\ vb — lib•er•al•ly adv

you will notice that it says tolerant. and not narrow in opinion. What is wrong with those qualities.

I always laugh at poeple that consider someone that doesn't have the same political views as themselves as "un-american" or "anti-american"- and as pointed out by DR- this was hitlers way of making the masses do his bidding- when in fact, some of our greatest warriors are not only liberal but <gasp> democrat as well! Oliver Stone, that liberal left guy, far left of me for sure, is a winner of the Bronze star for bravery in combat and the purple heart. What conservative on this site can compare thier service to thier country with that?

It is more traditional for countries to be engaged in war than it is for countries to actively avoid war through diplomacy.

Somehow some of us have been raised to believe that if you negotiate, even when you know you have superior firepower, you are going to be seen as weak. Therefore, those in favor of negotiating instead of amassing our troops and attacking are working to weaken the United States' position in the world (or so it is thought).

Bullying the bully is quicker and easier than teaching the bully that his behavior is wrong.

The other countries of the world realize that the same tactic of intimidation can be used on them. Some countries refused to be intimidated into joining the coalition for the war on Iraq. Obviously, there were the oil contracts these countries had with Iraq that put a wrinkle into things.

But if their people were set against joining the United States against Iraq, then the foreign leaders were correct in representing their people.

Those of us in the United States that recognized this and, even worse, articulated it are considered un- or anti-American by those who felt we should plunge headlong into a war with our Fearless Leader against a country that had yet to be proven to have undertaken any action against the U.S. relative to 9/11 or the terrorists who plotted and carried it out.

I still wonder about the different meanings the word 'un-American' could bear.

It's quite exclusive of others in its term. To me, my mother tongue coming from Latin, I get a bad feeling from the word itself.

It sounds as if I'm lacking something if I'm un-American, like something is missing... like in the words un-necessary, un-ready or un-clean. It sounds as if the word 'American' was bearing an inner quality that is being removed in un-American.

I mean, as a Frenchman, I consider that I am not American. Does that make me un-American? No. Does that make me anti-American either? No.

In my opinion, the word un-American is a plain example of segregation.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

The liberals are engaging in exactly the behavior they decry in this thread. All of you are calling Republicans and Conservatives oppressive and implying that we all agree on policy and all label anyone who disagrees with us un-American.

The truth is that conservatives and Republicans label use the term un-American to describe those policy ideas and people that go against basic principals of American Democracy such as freedom from fear and the right to say anything. We call people un-American if they attempt to corrupt democracy by building arguments based on faulty logic in order to influence the less intelligent members of society to a preconceived goal.

If you are called un-American it is likely because your radical ideas have little basis in reality. They may fulfill great ideals, but unfortunately the way the world works does not allow for that all the time.

So if you're going to say things like Johnnylocke has said here, check yourself first. Because by saying something like this you are in fact participating in the type of behavior you criticize.

----

popeye's post is a great example of this faulty liberal logic. "Liberal" in terms of a political sense carries the fifth definition that you have posted there. Using the logic you have to try and glorify the liberal side of the aisle, you could also say:

"of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts. What’s wrong with that? "

…which would have nothing to do with politics. You can’t just change things around to your liking like you have done here.

From my reading, most of the folks here -- with the exception of the rabid conservative former commie-hunters -- are saying that Republicans and Conservatives use these phrases to describe liberals with whom they disagree. Liberals don't use it at all, except to counter the charge of "Unamericanism" or "anti-americanism".

And we're wondering where this ELITIST attitude comes from -- who the heck made the conservatives judge and jury about what America is or should be? -- and why it's being used to silence dissent.

Campbejm, show me one person in this discussion, not a conservative Republican, who has said that half the population of this country is un-American. Just one. Show me one liberal or democratic pundit that has done the same. Just one.

Now, show me one major conservative talk show host or columnist that has not called liberals or democrats un-American ot traitorous in the last five years. I'd daresay you won't find one.

John Locke's and Passion51's attitutes seem to be a lot more prevalent than the other way around.



I don't see where Popeye has changed things around to his liking at all. Yes, the fifth definition carries a political sense of liberal. But so could the fourth definition, which is what he was citing. And considering the the rather narrow minded, elitist and intolerant attitudes seen in comments like JL's, or Passion51's, I would say that definition fits pretty well, wouldn't you?

I may just have to agree with you, I must be the dumbest and most stupid person in the world,because I sure can't follow your logic.

In other words my logic in voicing my opinion which doesn't agree with yours, makes me a un-american. HOLY COW!!! . I believe you should take a couple of logic courses in college. As a matter of fact,I would love to be one of your students and get to see you fall flat on your face in the first minute.



If I didn't know better I would think you are talking about Bill O'Reilly or Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh. Wait a minute these are conservative Republicans, we can't say that about them.

There is no way on heaven or earth anyone can justify that by me not agreeing with you I am CORRUPTING DEMOCRACY. What would our founding fathers have thought about that



I have not said anything like Johnnylocke. I have just DISAGREED with you in a debate. I haven't said you were oppressive or dominating or un-american. I just DISAGREED.

And give me an example of where I am RADICAL just because I disagreed with you. I assure you my disagreeing with you is not considered RADICAL. But in your FAULTY LOGIC(I know you consider mine faulty logic)you try to make me a radical. I hope you don't live in a glass house



What does the liberal arts have to do with this debate.

I used the definition of liberal:
lib•er•al \"li-br€l, -b€-r€l\ adj [ME, fr. MF, fr. L liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, fr. liber free] 1 : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts 2 : generous, bountiful 3 : not literal 4 : not narrow in opinion or judgment : tolerant; also : not orthodox 5 : not conservative — lib•er•al•i•ty \'li-b€-"ra-l€-tE\ n — lib•er•al•ize \"li-br€-'liz, -b€-r€-\ vb — lib•er•al•ly adv
)

I used the definition:not narrow in opinion or judgment, to illustrate that in questioning policies we are not narrow in opinion.

How the liberal arts got into this discussion? Oh, that must be the faulty logic you keep talking about. Well excuse me.

So in conclusion am I a un-american,anti-american,antipatriotic,radical,oppressive,faulty logic,misleading the less intelligent member person. What the heck. I guess I am since you portray me that way. And heaven help us if you are wrong

Merriam-Webster

un-Amer·i·can: not American : not characteristic of or consistent with American customs, principles, or traditions

an·ti-Amer·i·can: opposed or hostile to the people or the government policies of the U.S.

One only has to look at the definition of un-American and anti-American and ask themselves – have I ever portrayed a characteristic not consistent with American customs, principles or traditions? Have I ever or do I currently oppose or exude hostility to the people OR the government policies of the U.S.?

If you can answer any of those questions with a “Yes” you have been or may be Un-American/anti-American.

Looks around AD. Hello, my name is Bela and I have been and am anti-American.

when thinking about what is "un-american" the first thing that comes to mind is,

serving escargo, pho, pad thai, hagus or spanikopeta at a 4th of July BBQ.

others would include burning the american flag, bombing abortion clinics or federal buildings, assasinating the president, torching SUV dealerships or apartment complexes, opposing democracy and freedom...stuff like that, going above and beyond peacefull protest.

"Anti-American" conjures up images of The world workers union, the communist or socialist parties, Chirac, De Villipen, choosing tyranny over democracy, Islamic fundas and their supporters, those who insist that 911 was america's fault, Kim sung ill, OBL, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, Castro and their supporters...

Being able to call someone an "Anti-American" or "UnAmerica" is free speech but it is stupid when coming from someone telling an oppenent of Bush to shut up

For all of you who missed the logic in my previous post I will recap in easy to digest steps.

1) Many liberal seem upset that a few radical conservatives have called people who don't support the war "un-American".

2) These liberals have voiced their exceptions to these handful of occurrences by saying that ALL Republicans and ALL conservatives generalize the liberals as "un-American". (See second quote below for an example.)

3) (Here's the kicker!) Like I said earlier, the real people who are engaging in un-American behavior in this discussion are the one's who generalize about conservatives. Those people say things like:







Do you see the hypocrisy?

Can you read the tone in these posts?

These people are calling me an oppressive fascist and I take offense.

So in answer to the question, I think one possible definition of un-American is those who fight for special rights and entitlements for all demographic save one: rich white males. That is un-American. The support of programs like affirmative action quotas is un-American, because it is racist. The support of Saddam Hussein by wanting our troop to all be evacuated from Iraq tomorrow is un-American because, at best, that gives that country back to Saddam. The purely emotional calls for the impeachment of the president are un-American, because the support the removal of an American president by force rather than election.

That’s what I think.

Liberals have a field day.

comment from Campbejm:



I just have one question to ask. Were you for the impeachment of President Clinton? If you were, then by your quote you were un-american. If you weren't , then you are an american. Am I correct in using that logic.

I am not calling for the impeachment of the president, I am just disagreeing with his policy.

This is exactly the manipulation I referred to earlier. If you will notice, I did NOT say supporting impeachment (for say obstruction of justice or cheating in an election) is un-American. What I am saying is that calling for Bush's impeachment without presenting any legal evidence in support is emotional and the same thing as arguing for the abolishment of presidential elections.

There is another thread where many liberals on AD have called for his impeachment without making a case that any rational educated person would buy into. It is merely because they don't like him. Arguing for the subversion of an election is un-American.

The way I see it, there's no such thing as an "un-american." The decision of whether or not someone is un-american is to be made by each person respectively, based on his/her code of ethics and morals. As each of these things are relative to the individual, you can't denote any specific person, behavior, or idea as un-american. Generally, this term is just used as propaganda in order to make a person with ideas opposing the first person's feel less patriotic, or something to that effect.

Yeah, and so is appointing a guy President of the United States even though the other guy got more votes. What's your point?

Being "un-American" or "pro-American" isn't confined to partisan political parties or a personal philosophy. It isn't related to color, gender, race, religion, height, weight or profession. There are Muslims who worship Allah whom are far more patriotic than some God worshipping Christians.

When someone tries to say--in jest, I would hope---that because they are a Republican or a conservative they are pro-American and anyone who isn't is un-American--they are begging not to be taken seriously. Taken to its logical extreme that would lead one to believe that only conservatives have fought and died for this country and liberals just want to run away like craven cowards.

This is a very sad and divisive notion to be advancing and I hope anyone that would imply such a thing would seriously rethink this position.

1. It's not just those that didn't support the war. Go back and look at some of Coulter's or Hannity's comments on lots of different issues.

2. I did not say that all Republicans/Conservatives generalize liberals as un-American. I said that you would be hard pressed to find any major conservative talk show host or columnist that hasn't said that. How you go from my saying a dozen high profile people do this, to every conservative does this, I don't know. Judging by some of the people in this thread, though, it's looks like they have quite a following, correct or not.

Now, all of these writers and entertainers may be on the radical fringe, but I also don't see any more moderate conservatives standing up and calling them wrong. Why? They would probably be lumped in with the "liberals" at that point, because they refuse to tow the party line.

3a. Again, the first two quotes don't demean every single conservative at all. We are pointing out specific, high profile people in the conservative movement. People that do paint every liberal with the same, tired, old un-American label with just about every column they write, or every speech they make.

3b. Campbejm, take a look again, at who made the 3rd quote you listed. JohnLocke sure as heck isn't a liberal. Go back and look at Passion51's quotes in this thread. I believe you'll find he's not a liberal or a democrat either. And they have both called every non-conservative in this country un-American, in this very thread.

So yes, I do see the hypocrisy. And I surely do hear the tone in their posts. It's not ok for liberals and moderates to point out instances of a few conservative individuals tarring the rest of the country as un-American. But it's certainly ok for a few conservative individuals to call the rest of the country un-American, and get away with it time after time. It's not ok to question things that this administration is doing in our name. Oh, no! That's just plain un-patriotic, even for those of us who honorably served our country, and have an honest difference of opinion.


If you're referring to JL's post, I'd say you are correct. Then again, as I noted above, he's not a liberal, he's a conservative. So, who is it you're really upset with here?


It's really un-American to try and see that everyone gets the same opportunities in life, particularly those that don't have the head start that "rich white males" do?


No problem here, race shouldn't be a condition for or against getting into any school or job. Grades and experience should be.


I've never said we should pull out once we went into Iraq. My beef was in going into Iraq to begin with. Note I said Iraq. I had no problem with chasing down Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. But I definitely think Iraq was the wrong place at the wrong time. And yes, I was called un-American for questioning this.


I'm not going to debate the merits of this issue one way or the other, as I don't believe there's anything for the liberals to hang their hats on with this either. On the other hand, I doubt seriously that every conservative Republican had only the purest of motives in trying to oust Clinton. To suggest that the law alone, and not some measure of hatred or revenge motivated a lot of them, would be disingenuous, at best. After all, he did seem to drive a lot of conservatives absolutely nuts, just by existing.

Anyway, Campbejm, if you don't want to be labeled as fascist or oppressive, you might want to see if you can tone down the rhetoric of your more vocal factions. They are the only ones really being heard right now, simply because they are the most outrageous. They are the ones spouting rather oppressive, fascist beliefs. If they are the only ones being heard, and nobody else in their party calls them on it, it's kind of hard to expect that the rest of the world would not think that it's what most (or even all) conservatives believe. Because that's the only message getting out: "believe the way we do, say what we say, or you're an un-American, un-patriotic traitor."

You might have a point if that is how elections worked in the U.S. Popular vote DOES NOT elect American presidents. The Electoral College system does. Quite frankly, the numerous recounts done by such organization as USA Today after the justices made their ruling found that Bush had won by MORE votes than he thought in Florida. Bush won that election. Gore did not. A president was elected not appointed. If you look at the facts as reported by real news organizations and not nutty off the wall websites, you will realize this truth. So you are not correct in this statement.

My point is that there is such a thing as 'un-American', GiantBean. My point was to try and define what ‘un-American’ is.

My definition included a statement that implied desires to subvert the electoral process are fundamentally un-American. Therefore, those people, in that other thread, who say Bush should be removed from office through impeachment, but offer no evidence besides their opposition to his policies are 'un-American'.

Further, people who demonize conservatives by saying thing like “they ALL call liberals un-American” are un-American and discriminatory. That is what I saw happening on this thread.

Edited for:
Show me five who have generalized like this and I'll believe you. (Real conservatives, not ##### like Fox and Friends. Those types have very little to do with the Republican Party.)

PROFANITY REMOVED - JAIME

Let's see. I already listed Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and David Horowitz.

Maybe you don't consider them "real" conservatives, but that's surely how they bill themselves, night after night, on every talk show they're on, every column they write, and every speech they make. They point out that they are on the conservative side of the fence, and that every liberal in the country, and every wrong thinking person (read: anyone who doesn't think like them) are either criminally stupid, or traitors to their nation, or both.

So, are they conservatives, or are they lying? I can only go by what they tell me. I happen to believe they are a more radical sect of the conservatives, but that's not my problem. It's yours. The fact that you think they have very little to do with the Republican party is irrelevant. These are the people making the conservative's arguments to the public, day after day. These are the people that the nation sees espousing the "Republican Message".

Again, if you don't want to be associated with the more extremist members of your party, you'd better start demanding some new voices. I really am willing to talk to others about the issues that face this country in a manner consistant with coming to an agreement about what needs to be done and how to go about it.

I refuse, however, to just roll over and take anymore garbage from some of the people who claim to be more patriotic than I. People who have never put on a uniform, or fought for this country, but claim I'm anti-American. And claim it because I refuse to close my mind and be a good little "Card Carrying Conservative". That's what's un-patriotic. And it's one of the reasons I left the Republican party. I like thinking for myself.

Ann Coulter, et al don’t represent the majority of the Republican Party just as Al Franken, Michael Moore, Barbra Striesand etc., don’t represent the Democratic Party. They aren't the official spokesperson of either party.

I think it very unfair to attempt to stifle debate by using such generalizations.

We are ALL un/anti-American at some point in our lives. We are all patriotic at other times.

If you use terms like "narrow-minded, elitist and intolerant" to describe someone whose views you don' t agree, they have every right to use the term un-anti-American in response.

I never claimed they did, Beladonna. What I said was, they claim to represent the majority of each parties views. And nobody calls them on it. But I don't believe that on either side of the fence. I happen to believe that most people are smarter than that. Hearing the bile spewed by both sides is not conducive to constructive debate, but the more it's out there, the more some people are going to believe it.

As I said, if these extreme leaning people don't represent your views, maybe it's time to demand some some new voices from inside your party be heard, voices that do represent the majority of the people associated with your party. That's why I'm an independent now, as I stated in my last post. I quit the Republican Party because of this kind of stuff about 8 years ago. But I can't abide the Democrat's same use of terms like racist, to define Republicans, because that's nowhere near true either.


And so do I, which is why I'll keep calling them on it every time they do it.


Umm, beladonna, let's take a look at who posted what, first, shall we?







Now, notice please the dates and times. Who pulled the trigger first? JL, and Passion51. They were not posted in response to anyone calling them elitist or closed minded, they were posted as a first strike attack, either as a means of stifling the actual debate, or to be trolling.

Now read through their quotes again. You find nothing whatsoever closed-minded about them? Nothing elitist? (As in, it's conservatives who define and decide what American values are?) Nothing intolerant of every other political party in this country? (As in, If you're not Republican, you're un-American?)

Like I said, I like to think for myself. I see the garbage on both sides, and it kills me that the political discourse in this country has come to this. Each side is too busy blaming the other of being the anti-Christ, instead of coming together to get the peoples work done.

Ok, my definition of what it means to be "Un-American".

Politician-Puts his/her politics ahead of whats for the good of the country. I would say the hold up of judicial nominations counts towards this..esp when the questions aren't over case and law and over personal beliefs and politics.

Average Joe-Puts his/her beliefs ahead of fellow citizens rights. IE blocking traffic in some protest, cutting or spiking trees, willingly trying to subvert US goals..ie Human shields. Freedom of speech means you have the right to go where ya want but, don't be crying if you are shot first. Raising arms against your fellow citizens.

GWB is our President..the President of the United States of America...just like Clinton was Reagan was. Whether you agree with politics or not I have seen some people refer to him as "not my president" I consider that assinine logic at best and very Un-American.

Just some thoughts,

cusbilla

Ok, just to test your example: are you claiming that former Senator Jesse Helms (R-NC) is "un-american", since he prevented MOST of Clinton's nominations for judgeships from even being considered in the judicial committee that he chaired?

What you did was place the burden of right wing extremist on the backs of those who are Republican moderates. These were your words to a moderate Republican:



I doubt a moderate Republican listens to Rush or reads Ann so they aren't supporting them financially. Most moderate Republicans are probably just as put off by both of these people as you.

What advise would you give to a moderate on halting the voices of Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh etc.?



I realize you weren't the first to start the mudslinging - it was just disheartening to see you wallow in it.

You don't halt them, but Franken's technique of documenting their lies for all the world to see is pretty effective... and MORE effective if coming from a moderate conservative.

I think the point is- and a good point of this thread- has been the tendency since the Reagan years of the "conservative movement" to call anyone that doesn't agree with them "anti-american" etc. This has been the near exclusive baliwick of the right, and NO ONE on the "moderate right" has been trying to counter this. John Ashcroft, as you know, has "wallowed" in this. Liberals of the 60s never demonized the entire conservative movement like the conservatives have made "liberal" a bad word. What irks me about this is how liberals have made this country what it is, everything from bringing us out of the depression, winnning WW2, infrastructure building and even, yes, our military was done under liberal democratic control. There really has never been a conservative controlled congress or presidency that has contributed anything positive, the only thing they have ever done is attempt to destroy things (impeach Clinton, take benefits away from the poor etc) - yet you have a very large, possibly majority (if the other boards I frequent with large numbers of "conservatives" are an indication) that call anyone that doesn't believe what they believe "un-american"- I believe JL and company are in the majority of the self styled conservatives are of this belief, not the minority. It is on AD that enforced reasonablness is the norm rather than the exception IMO.

Not much you can do about Rush Limbaugh, his program is his own. Same with Hannity, although he does have Alan Combes to somewhat keep him in line.

As for Ann Coulter, David Horowitz, Al Franken, Michael Moore, etc. You can contact the programs that continue to feature these nitwits time after time, and let them know you don't agree with their stances. Let them know you don't consider these people mainstream, and want some other, leveler heads to be heard. I have. And it's quite possible that if enough do, things can change.


And what would you have me do, Bela, when two other members of this forum accuse me of being un-American, (in an unprovoked broadside) simply because I'm not a conservative or Republican? Not respond? I'm not allowed to attempt to refute their claims against my patriotism? If I do just shut up and take it doesn't that by default, mean that they have successfully stifled the debate?

And why didn't you answer the last few questions in my last post:

Who's wallowing, where, bela?

No, NiteGuy I didn't answer those questions. I may believe people are close-minded, elitist, narrow-minded, etc., but I'll never resort to issuing those labels to describe someone here at AD, just like I'll never resort to calling someone here at AD un/anti-American.

The fact is, one insult is no worse than the other, in my opinion.

as a centrist republican I've never listened to Rush, or read anything other than the first pages of either of Ann Coulter's books whilst browsing B&N. Typically they get the attention of the far right. Contract this to the overwhelming number of Lefties who cling to every fart and fiddle ever written or pontificated by Franken, Moore, Tim Robbins, Mike Farrel, Babs, and the shrill janeanne garafalo as THEE last and final truths about the "evil empires" of Republican party or any Republican presidencies.

These are the same people who accuse republicans for not thinking for themselves? lol.

What is un-american is the consistent and arrogant stance by the left that they are the voice of "peace" and the right are nothing more than war-mongering-fanatically-religious-baby-killers. oy vey

And with one stroke of the keyboard, you've painted liberals with the same broad strokes that many on the right in this discussion thread have said they're being painted when other conservatives use the "un-american" insult.

Painting in broad strokes usually gets paint in the wrong places. And, no, that's not a Zell-ism

I'm a moderate liberal (in the current definitions of the phrases).

I don't subscribe to the writings of those you mention.

I think for myself.

And for my thinking, many on the right have labelled my stances as "un-american" or "anti-american".

And, during the discussion here, I think we've touched on how ELITIST it is to define "un-american" as being some view a conservative happens to oppose.

well amf, you are perhaps the first in a new breed of the left then. congratulations, seriously.

It's quite elitist of either sides to consider that "they" are better, more moral, more american, more humanistic, better fre thinkers and all the rest of that garbage. so on that point we can agree.

What a disengenious claim. Ann Coulter, Michael Moore, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Al Franken, and Sean Hannity (though I'm not sure how many he has sold) have all produced bestsellers. How can you claim on the one hand that Republicans ignore people like Rush (who boasts millions of listeners everyday, as well) and Coulter, while somehow most liberals hang on every word of people like Moore and Franken?!?!?!?!?

What possible proof could you have that this is so? Please, share it with us.

I said, "typically the far right" and you say I've said Republicans. As in all Republicans.



absolutely. I have yet to read repub's here talk about Rush, hannity, coulter et al as though they were the messiahs of the one almighty truth with the CONSISTANTLY that I have read Liberals yammer on about Franken or Moore.

Thank you for the correction; I should have added the "moderate" caveat. However, my point still stands. Are you saying that Rush's millions of listeners, the millions who bought his books, the millions who watch Bill O'Reilly, the millions who bought Ann Coulter's books, are all on the far right? Even if that is so, why wouldn't you then make the same distinction with the left? Instead of saying "lefties," why wouldn't you have said that Moore and Franken get the attention of the far left?

The truth is, it's obvious that more people than just the "far" left or the "far" right are listening/reading these people.

But let's go back to your earlier post. When you said
what did you mean? You made a blanket statement there. "Overwhelming number?" What's your source? Did you do a poll of "lefties" and find out that an "overwhelming number" of us hang on Barbra Streisand's "every fart and fiddle?"

How is this related to the patriotism-baiting tactic of using terms like "un-american" and "anti-american?" Because it's the same kind of thinking. Because thinking like this kills civil discourse. It stops critical reasoning in its tracks. It's saying "I don't even have to qualify my argument. I'll just claim your belief is un-american."

Please, don't think in that paragraph I'm trying to put words in your mouth. It may be that you don't think that way. Or then again...


As you may be able to see, in your critique you employ the exact technique you are professing to be upset about.