Recently some attention has been brought to the polygamous clans here in the US, Colorado City, Arizona and Hilldale, Utah. (Google search: Colorado City, polygamous clans) These are not small groups, but entire towns.

Right here in the US there are existng clans, large, rich and it appears powerful, where men (old men) take several wives, often underage and often of the same family, having as many children as these women can bear them (the founder had/has 80 children) Officials have so far looked the other way because polygamy is difficult to prosecute and these folks (the patriarchs) have a lot of money, owning every business for miles and various other large investments US wide.

Children are only educated to grade school levels, and when the patriarchs get their eye on a girl she is forced to marry and bear, usually just of breeding age. They are taught to obey men without question, their cycles tabulated. Pedophilia and child sex abuse is rampant.
The clans claim to be direct decendants to Christ, so inbreeding is advocated and planned. Its worse...the founder did some studies on cattle, and the entire clans are bred in this way, sometimes running young women across the border for trade with another clan in B.C.,Canada, called Bountiful. There is no ability for these girls to decline marriage, or the breeding, unless they escape, but instead, problematic females are often sent to internal 'farms' for 'correction'.

There is now an underground railroad trying to help these girls get out, often frightened by the real world of ..well..everything, since books and television etc are extremely censured in the towns and the education levels so low.

Some escapees are now prosecuting their abusers, to shed light on this; for statutory rape, incest or anything else they can find legally, because the marriages are 'spiritual marriages' and non-prosecutable by law, the 'forced' polygamy being too hard to prove.

There is also another group of women within the clans who are lobbying for polygamy to be legalized. Their arguement is 1.) religious freedom 2.) that polygamy focuses males on their true function, claiming the rest of the country suffers divorce, broken homes etc. 3.) that they are thinking human beings able to discern what is right and wrong for themselves.

Heres the clincher. Taxes pay for a good part of all these families to birth, live and subsist. A large part of these women and children collect welfare and benefits, because they are considered by the state to be single mothers and many live below poverty level, because the wealth belongs to the patriarchs.
"Polygamy, she said, is "the biggest con game going. The men up there are fat and happy, smiling. They've got all the women they want, all the sex, and the government pays for their children." Link at bottom.


It gets even uglier. Young men often are forced out of the clans to go live in the cities, with little education and no way to survive except the basic wage, because the patriarchs do not allow them to advance quickly enough, and take the youngest women/girls for themselves.

This link has the most history:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html


It has been suggested that we have what could easily be viewed as a 'Taliban' type situation, or a child/female slavery ring right here in the US, subjecting them to lack of education, forced marriage and breeding, AND trading them off into Canada to keep the gene line pure but less corrupted. The other side of the coin: that religious freedom being guaranteed in the US, these folks have a perfect right to their practices.

My questions:

How do you view this? Religious freedom or abuse and slavery? Is this acceptable in the USA?

Is it ok for citizens to support this with our taxes?

Depending on your answer, what should be done?

I would like to add that the Mormons have been persecuted since the 1800's for their views, were basically ousted from the east coast and founded themselves communities in the west where they could practice freely. In the 1960's, authorities went in; there were media shots of children being taken from mothers, etc, which caused extreme public opposition.
I dont expect these patriarchs will disappear but go underground.

I myself would like to see HUGE pressure put to the Gov. of Arizona, Utah for tight surveillance on these clans and social work done in the communities, education enforced to high school levels and supervised.
I understand each ones rights to choose their lifestyle, but where does choice end and slavery begin?

First, I would just like to state that polygamy can work both ways. Remote communities in Nepal actually practice marriage where all the male siblings are wed to a single female bride. I know this because I saw it on that Pilot Guides television series...

I find nothing wrong with polygamy under the condition that it is consensual to all individuals involved.

I would address the rest of this post, but I've only had 2 hours sleep and my brain is dry.

You make a very good point about the abuse that goes on in SOME of these clans, but I have also personally known polygamous families in other countries, and know that some of this is demonizing some families similar to what the goverment did to marijuana in the 20s and 30s. I have also personally been in a polygamous aquaintences household, and none of the women he was married too were underage or forced when he married them. That is part of the reason you are seeing some of the WOMEN lobby for polygamy in these situations. I feel that this is once again a bad thing that the goverment/religious right has made into a bad thing, like the drug war and homophobia. If we just had civil unions in america for consensual adults, these abusive clans would lose much of thier power, since some of the religious zealotry and persecution complex they revel in would go away.

I feel strongly, like with gay marriages, that the goverment has no business regulating marriage out side of enforcing the disolution agreement part of the marriage contract (splitting of assets as proscribed in the marriage contract) unless there is abuse or a victim of incest or violence, such as Artemise described. I read once that 70% of the worlds population allows polygamy, and it is the western world that is all wierd about it LOL

My wife, being Russian, has seen polygamy by Muslims in her city, though it is not allowed by law, it is tolerated, and doesn't have the strong thing against this that US women do. My feeling is for consenting adults to do it, they have to have a very stable relationship, one that is not dependent on an outside source (like religious beliefs) for it to be a happy/joyful thing.

So, I think the best way is to make polygamy legal, but go after deadbeats, welfare defrauders, abusers and pedophiles with the full force of the law.

My I interject, that this is NOT a discussion of whether polygamy is right or wrong, but whether the behavior of THESE PARTICULAR clans is acceptable, and their abuses tolerated within the borders of the USA, based on religious freedom.
IE: That these girls need an underground to escape? Etc.

In that case, I don't see why anyone would disagree that the abuses perpetrated could in any way be covered by religious freedom. Anyone practicing animal sacrifice would be guilty of animal cruelty. I don't think any religion is allowed to commit a crime and get away with it solely because it's a part of their doctrine. (I vaguely remember a case where a mormon was taken to court for abusing one of his underage wives, so the government doesn't condone this behaviour, and nor do I. )

I get your point, but I am worried that this is similar to the crusade against gays, where they are all portrayed as pedophiles, when that was not the case. The court of public opinion is very important to some powerful poeple, so I am somewhat worried that some rotten apples are being used to persecute others. But I am DEAD SET on prosecuting the abusers as you defined.

One point I do know that is falsifying or demonizing some of these poeple, is the welfare thing. Many of the patriarchs are very rich, and don't participate in goverment assistance just to make sure that the goverment doesn't notice them. It is counter survival to many of these poeples ways of thought, so I doubt very much that "most" of them do this welfare fraud thing.

Cruising,
This is not fraud, but perfectly legal in that only one marriage is considered legal, the rest are eligible for all benefits, they take advantage in the concept that God gives them this, and no matter how much the patriarchs hold, it appears the wealth does not trickle down, since the poverty level is extraordinatley high, at least by statistics.
I would also like to remind that these people are not currently being prosecuted, nor persecuted. The State of Arizona, and its governor, who is himself a decendant of polygamists has done nothing about the situation. Utah does not even adress the issue. The only recourses taken have been through legal circles.

There is plenty out there about the benefit/tax drain. Examples:





http://helpthechildbrides.com/articles/prescottcourier.htm



http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b0ae4201daf.htm

When you have 3 to 10+ wives, and 10 to 80 children, why not bleed the state in Gods name? which is the philosophy.


The references are easy and I provided plenty, not that this is an issue that concerns everyone. I wanted anyone who could be concerned about this to take issue. I want this to be known, bring it to light.
I am astounded by the forced slavery of young girls, married off without consent, in incestuous relationships to elder uncles and other old men within the church who have + wives, bred like cows...uneducated except for doctrine, child/sex abuse, pedophilia and the entire sick situation, all inside the US. Much more than the tax problem. I am outraged that this can occur within our borders.

We have a private underground railroad for young girls in this nation, right now, 2003 escapees?

How can this happen in the USA?

It is outrageous, Artemise. The abuses connected to polygamous unions should be enough to condemn the practice and have law enforcment rounding these guys up and sending them to prison.

It's hard to do when the women involved take the part of their husbands. That's one of the dangerous things about a religion, when affirmation of oneself becomes "sin" in the eyes of religious authority (in this case, elders/husbands). It becomes incumbent on the women to gather up some courage to leave the situation and seek prosecution of these offenders. But I am sure they also consider that if they leave the situation, the other wives will be punished and made to bear even heavier burdens in their absence.

It's probably true that the most effective way of prosecuting these offenders is on the basis of violations as a consequence of their practice, like Al Capone finally being convicted of income tax evasion.

Would the situation change if polygamy was actually legalized? IOW...Subsequently, the head of the family would be responsible to provide support for his legitimate offspring, the mothers no longer eligible for those benefits as single moms would be. Those numerous wives would no longer be cash cows. Eighty children would bankrupt pretty much anyone. Perhaps legitimizing (at the age of consent) polygamy would actually ameliorate the problem in this instance, offering a disincentive to have too many wives and children.

Mrs P.

Although legalizing polygamy in this case might end the 'cash cow' situation, it would also legitimize the forcing of young girls to marry old patriarchs against their will and would continue the many other problems such as the lack of education under religious doctrine, hence not do much to curb the poverty situation. IE: It would not necessarily mean you have to support all your wives and children above the poverty line.

Also, I cant imagine what this would mean to the rest of the country and our society, interesting...

I don't think you need to legalize polygamy in order to hold the father of the children financially responsible. A simple paternity test would be all that's required for that.

The rest of the situation described by Artemise is nothing but slavery and last time I checked, slavery is against the law with good reason, and there's nothing "religious" about it. It seems to me that the governor of Arizona needs to enforce the law and go after these guys.

Not trying to re-open this can of worms, but there are a few points that need to be made.

1. Mormons do not practice polygamy. It is against the teachings of the church. It was not always this way, but has been for some time. Those who practice have broken off from the Mormon church.
2. The Governor of Arizona is not a he, but a her. Has been for quite some time. At least 5 years. The current Governor was the Attorney General and did prosecute practicing polygamists. Granted it is not at the level that some think it needs to be, but progress is being made.



http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy136.html

State governments are getting involved, but as has been stated it is really difficult do bring a lot of legal action to bear. So they do what they can when they can. I think it is a far cry from forced slavery. I am sure there are abuses that occur, but in other cases it could be willingly done. Those who come against the church are usually those who are bitter towards it or some person. This makes them and their testimony of events very biased. They may be telling the truth, but in a court of law it would be very difficult to prove.

I never noticed this topic before, which I feel I must respond to, living in Utah and being a former Mormon.

Mormons do not currently practice polygamy, but do believe that it is practiced in "heaven" (Mormons have a complicated theology, so I won't go into all the details.) There are groups that branched off when the Mormons renounced polygamy in order to gain statehood for Utah. But the law of polygamy is believed to have been given as a revelation to the Mormon prophet direct from God.

I have been to Colorado City, AZ and the atmosphere of that place is very creepy. All the girls wear long dresses with long sleeves -- we even saw a group of girls playing and they had jeans underneath their long dresses. Very much reminds me of the burka situation - - -

There are some organizations in Salt Lake that try to help women and girls escape the polygamous lifestyle. Tapestry of Polygamy is one that comes to mind -- many of the volunteers in that group are women that have escaped the polygamous lifestyle.

The problem, I believe, comes down to consent. How can a young girl in her teens raised in a polygamous community and isolated from the knowledge of other choices consent to a polygamous marriage?

No one in Utah seems to have the heart for prosecuting them, though. There have been some half-hearted attempts recently, but the majority of the population of the state is Mormon, and while not polygamists themselves, are aware of the history of the LDS church and don't think of polygamist culture as hideous as the non-Mormons do.

I also agree that paternity tests are the best methods of shutting down the welfare scam of the polygamist clans.

I'm not against the idea of polygamy itself, if grown women who have been exposed to other lifestyle choices choose such a marriage, that is their choice. I think we have too many barriers to choice in marriage in this country as it is and I agree with CruisingRam that the government should stay out of the business of regulating who gets to marry whom. My only criteria would be a reasonable age and true consent -- which I'm at a loss how to regulate at this point. I am worried that many girls do not have a choice in many of these situations and I think they need to be protected as well.