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IWC.JASONASHLEY63
Why do Mexicans, Jaimacans,Haitians, and any other immigrant group come to America expecting to live a dream they are not entitled to live? African-Americans helped build this nation and we still don't sleep well enough to even dream the American dream...How do you feel?
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Jaime
Two questions for you Jason:

1. Why aren't immigrant groups "entitled" to live out their dreams?

2. What makes you think African-Americans (or blacks for those who don't like hyphened terms or do not have African ancestry) "don't sleep well enough to even dream the American dream"? Can you really speak for an entire group of people?

Ok, so that was three questions. Since, I've pushed it, I might as well add one more - what do you mean by American Dream?
IWC.JASONASHLEY63
Is it Illegal to answer your own post? tongue.gif


America was never set up to carry so many different cultures. The founders who set up this nation, set up this nation in the mindframe to where it would benefit them and their descendants. Till this day the people who were meant to be on top remain on top. There will never be an equal playing field for any race in America. No matter how hard America tries to reform and push for equality it will never happen because America's foundation was set up on this inequality. The so-called melting pot or salad bowl does not exsist. America was based off of free labor as it still thrives off of free labor today. Immigrants come here and work jobs that pay very little, thousands of black men work the chain-gangs in Alabama still.

With the influx of immigrants America is shutting the gates. There are only certain groups they want here now. I say "they" because I am a Neo-Nubian American man who could care less about who comes here. I am just suprised so many people come here yearly to live this dream that people born here don't even live. There is more to the dream than freedom. We are free to do whatever, but whatever is not free to do...Meaning there has to be a price you pay to gain that "whatever" we want. The means are not as accesible to people who contain melanin. Is Melanin the price we must pay in order to live this American dream? I dunno, maybe we should ask Colin Powell....
IWC.JASONASHLEY63
Two questions for you Jason:

1. Why aren't immigrant groups "entitled" to live out their dreams?

2. What makes you think African-Americans (or blacks for those who don't like hyphened terms or do not have African ancestry) "don't sleep well enough to even dream the American dream"? Can you really speak for an entire group of people?

Ok, so that was three questions. Since, I've pushed it, I might as well add one more - what do you mean by American Dream?



1. Immigrant groups are entitled to live whatever dream they see fit to live. I am saying the American dream was not meant for them to live...

2. Am I speaking for all people of color? Yep...America speaks for a whole group of people doesn't it? Does the question on a questionnare ask you if you are Sweden-American or German-American? No it just puts you in a class altogether seperating white from black...You are white. That is America speaking for you. I am entitled to speak for a whole race becuase it is self evident that this is going on in America. We have learned to live with the discomfort. Not truely living this so-called dream.

3. The American dream...The American dream includes the ownership of property...This ensures the survival of you and you descendants because you have the "means" to survive. These means were denied to "African-Americans" although they were promised to us....It was called 40 acres and a mule then...We did not recieve the means to be able to live the ownership part of the "Dream"... The American dream includes the life, liberty and happiness too. We are entitled to live the life part of our dreams while fighting for or liberty and happiness at the same time...Tell me more about the American dream you live....Jaime.....
Jaime
QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ November 8, 2002, 3:28p.m.)
Immigrant groups are entitled to live whatever dream they see fit to live. I am saying the American dream was not meant for them to live...

I have a follow up question, then. If these people are immigrants to America and become citizens through legal means, are they not entitled to the rights and dreams of all Americans?

QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ November 8, 2002, 3:28p.m.)
Am I speaking for all people of color? Yep...America speaks for a whole group of people doesn't it?


Let me see if I understand you right. Are you saying America is speaking for whole groups of people because we have systems set up to help specifically defined groups? Or are you saying skin color speaks louder than anything else in which we may try to categorize ourselves?

QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ November 8, 2002, 3:28p.m.)
These means were denied to "African-Americans" although they were promised to us....It was called 40 acres and a mule then


Now, I'm not the best Civil War historian, but my understanding of the 40 acres idea is that it never made it any farther than the proposal phase. Perhaps we have some Civil War/Reconstruction experts out there that can help me on this, but I think that it was General Sherman who proposed the idea. I do not think it was ever enacted as a law by Congress, Executive Order or any state authority.

I whole-heartedly agree that property ownership is essential to defining the American Dream, particularly if you look at it from the perspective of our forefathers.

I'll hold off on defining my "American Dream" because I'm not sure if I even have one. I need to think about that one some. But if anyone else would like to share theirs, I'd be glad to hear it.
Darcaine
QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ Nov 8 2002, 03:28 PM)
Two questions for you Jason:

1. Why aren't immigrant groups "entitled" to live out their dreams?

2. What makes you think African-Americans (or blacks for those who don't like hyphened terms or do not have African ancestry) "don't sleep well enough to even dream the American dream"? Can you really speak for an entire group of people?

Ok, so that was three questions. Since, I've pushed it, I might as well add one more - what do you mean by American Dream?



1. Immigrant groups are entitled to live whatever dream they see fit to live. I am saying the American dream was not meant for them to live...

2. Am I speaking for all people of color? Yep...America speaks for a whole group of people doesn't it? Does the question on a questionnare ask you if you are Sweden-American or German-American? No it just puts you in a class altogether seperating white from black...You are white. That is America speaking for you. I am entitled to speak for a whole race becuase it is self evident that this is going on in America. We have learned to live with the discomfort. Not truely living this so-called dream.

3. The American dream...The American dream includes the ownership of property...This ensures the survival of you and you descendants because you have the "means" to survive. These means were denied to "African-Americans" although they were promised to us....It was called 40 acres and a mule then...We did not recieve the means to be able to live the ownership part of the "Dream"... The American dream includes the life, liberty and happiness too. We are entitled to live the life part of our dreams while fighting for or liberty and happiness at the same time...Tell me more about the American dream you live....Jaime.....

I would take issue with your post. I have African American neighbors in a very influentual neighborhood. They are regular working guys and gals just like everyone else here. They own property, pay taxes and raise a family. I think that WE are living the American dream. I think the black community as a whole needs to wake up and get away from people like Jackson and Sharpton and start embracing change. IMHO the breakdown of the black familly is to blame for 99% of what ails black America. You see a married black familly and you see a couple that is on par with the rest of America. The data is there. Having baby after baby out of wedlock is killing the black community...and if you keep listeng to the DNC it will only get worse.

Darcaine
Madtown
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Nov 8 2002, 07:57 PM)
...
.  I have African American neighbors in a very influentual neighborhood.  They are regular working guys and gals just like everyone else here.  They own property, pay taxes and raise a family.  I think that WE are living the American dream.  I think the black community as a whole needs to wake up and get away from people like Jackson and Sharpton and start embracing change.  IMHO the breakdown of the black familly is to blame for 99% of what ails black America.  You see a married black familly and you see a couple that is on par with the rest of America.  The data is there.  Having baby after baby out of wedlock is killing the black community...and if you keep listeng to the DNC it will only get worse.

Darcaine

Yes Darceine, we can all point to the one or two black families in our neighborhood and say, "see, they can make it if they want to."

I agree that the breakdown of the Afro-Amer. family is a huge part of the problem. NOW, we must ask ourselves Why. Why, is the Afro-Amer father not with his family as is often the case?

MT
turnea
QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ Nov 8 2002, 02:16 PM)
There will never be an equal playing field for any race in America. No matter how hard America tries to reform and push for equality it will never happen because America's foundation was set up on this inequality. The so-called melting pot or salad bowl does not exsist. America was based off of free labor as it still thrives off of free labor today. Immigrants come here and work jobs that pay very little, thousands of black men work the chain-gangs in Alabama still.


The real question here is what is it about the setup of America that prevents non-whites from suceeding. Is it in the Constitution? If it's not on the books it can be changed, period.

Free Labor?
I'm a black man living in Alabama, those guys on the chain gangs didn't get there just for being black, trust me, most of them earned it well. dry.gif Exaggeration is not going to help anyone these days. African-Americans are no longer slaves in this country, that's just reality.

A defeatist attidude won't help anyone, least of all African-Americans. It is denying reality to say that America has not progressed concerning our race, we can move further if we want to sleep.gif
Alan Wood
Down here in OZ we have the same sort of cosmopolitan society as America but our legal immigrants are mainly Asians.

They work hard, ask little and achieve. Very few white Aussies condem them for their success.
Unfortunately they also bring the worst of their cultures with them.
Asian sects war with each other, drug cartels etc.
We have enough of our own to deal with.

The price honest immigrants pay is that of living down the actions of a rogue few.
The price white Australians pay is the dilution of our culture.
But thats multiculturalism in all its glory.

Regards..Alan
Madtown
QUOTE(turnea @ Nov 9 2002, 07:02 PM)
The real question here is what is it about the setup of America that prevents non-whites from suceeding. Is it in the Constitution? If it's not on the books it can be changed, period.

. It is denying reality to say that America has not progressed concerning our race, we can move further if we want to  sleep.gif

I don't quite understand turnea. Are you saying there is some sort of set up that prevents non whites from suceeding or are you saying that they can be successful if they want to?

It's true that there are many single parent Afro-Amer families. What do you attribute this to?

MT
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turnea
MT: I'm saying that there is nothing in writing stopping African-Americans from suceeding. So, we can improve our status if we want to.
Madtown
turnea- Do you agree that it can be much harder for Afro-Amer. than for White Americans to improve their status?
turnea
Certainly, but the problems are due more to poverty and drug use than racism. Rascism is still a problem, but it is no longer the deciding factor.
Darcaine
QUOTE(Madtown @ Nov 9 2002, 07:07 AM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Nov 8 2002, 07:57 PM)
...
.  I have African American neighbors in a very influentual neighborhood.  They are regular working guys and gals just like everyone else here.  They own property, pay taxes and raise a family.  I think that WE are living the American dream.  I think the black community as a whole needs to wake up and get away from people like Jackson and Sharpton and start embracing change.  IMHO the breakdown of the black familly is to blame for 99% of what ails black America.  You see a married black familly and you see a couple that is on par with the rest of America.  The data is there.  Having baby after baby out of wedlock is killing the black community...and if you keep listeng to the DNC it will only get worse.

Darcaine

Yes Darceine, we can all point to the one or two black families in our neighborhood and say, "see, they can make it if they want to."

I agree that the breakdown of the Afro-Amer. family is a huge part of the problem. NOW, we must ask ourselves Why. Why, is the Afro-Amer father not with his family as is often the case?

MT

MT..My neiborhood looks like the damn UN! My wife is hispanic and I DO speak Spanish...well somewhat. The point is that the VALUES of any given society or neighborhood will dictate how you will do in America. The values of the DNC have kept the poor minorities in the poor. The illiteracy rate among blacks is staggering and the DNC has let this happen. Jackson and Sharpton have nothing to give the communities they are supposed to be helping...unless teaching extortion is a good lesson? It's time to stand up for right and wrong. Too many of todays youth speak with so much "ghetto slang" they will never get a good job. Big, aweful looking tattoos will ensure you flipping burgers. These things need to be told and not taken a racist statements.

Darcaine
Madtown
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Nov 10 2002, 01:12 PM)
]
.  The values of the DNC have kept the poor minorities in the poor.  The illiteracy rate among blacks is staggering and the DNC has let this happen.  Jackson and Sharpton have nothing to give the communities they are supposed to be helping...unless teaching extortion is a good lesson?  It's time to stand up for right and wrong.  Too many of todays youth speak with so much "ghetto slang" they will never get a good job.  Big, aweful looking tattoos will ensure you flipping burgers.  These things need to be told and not taken a racist statements.

Darcaine

Ok, explain to me how the DNC is keeping minorities poor? huh.gif I know I'm in for it now! smile.gif

Lots of kids, my own grandsons included, have those awful tattoos. I hate em!

The answer to illiteracy is Education, Education, Education, which in turn will help minorities get better jobs, which will help wipe out poverty. Education has to start with the very young as in programs like Head Start.

I still maintain some people need a boost.
Jaime
QUOTE(Madtown @ Nov 10 2002, 04:07 PM)
The answer to illiteracy  is Education, Education, Education, which in turn will help minorities get better jobs, which will help wipe out poverty. Education has to start with the very young as in programs like Head Start.

I agree with your assessment of the problem, MT. I disagree with your suggested solution (although I'll guess you don't offer Head Start as the only solution).

I think programs like Head Start are a crutch. It is more a system of daycare than education. Minorities need to be afforded an opportunity to keep their own money so they may raise their own children, particularly during the developmental years. No one should be encouraged to ship their children off and hope the government takes care of their education and socialization.

We need to find incentives for people to want to raise the children they have in a responsible manner. That won't solve everything, but I see it being helpful.
kimpossible
QUOTE(Jaime @ Nov 10 2002, 05:48 PM)
Minorities need to be afforded an opportunity to keep their own money so they may raise their own children, particularly during the developmental years.  No one should be encouraged to ship their children off and hope the government takes care of their education and socialization. 

I agree that something needs to be done, but I dont think that minorities need to "keep their own money." Are you referring to taxes with this? If you are, I dont think that letting poor families keeping their tax money is the answer. The fact is, our minimum wage hasnt been risen for five years, and the cost of living keeps going up. There needs to be a wage adjustment and more assistance for families, possibly giving more maternal leave (although I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be "maternal").

Also, as far as education goes there is a disproportionate amount of money going into high income neighborhoods. If all public schools were given funding depending on the size of the school, as opposed to the tax bracket of the neighborhood, education would improve dramatically. All public schools are seriously underfunded, but more so in inner cities.
Darcaine
QUOTE(kimpossible @ Nov 10 2002, 08:57 PM)
QUOTE(Jaime @ Nov 10 2002, 05:48 PM)
Minorities need to be afforded an opportunity to keep their own money so they may raise their own children, particularly during the developmental years.  No one should be encouraged to ship their children off and hope the government takes care of their education and socialization.  

I agree that something needs to be done, but I dont think that minorities need to "keep their own money." Are you referring to taxes with this? If you are, I dont think that letting poor families keeping their tax money is the answer. The fact is, our minimum wage hasnt been risen for five years, and the cost of living keeps going up. There needs to be a wage adjustment and more assistance for families, possibly giving more maternal leave (although I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be "maternal").

Also, as far as education goes there is a disproportionate amount of money going into high income neighborhoods. If all public schools were given funding depending on the size of the school, as opposed to the tax bracket of the neighborhood, education would improve dramatically. All public schools are seriously underfunded, but more so in inner cities.

Unfortunately this is NOT the problem. This is a myth that inner city schools are under funded. The private schools do with half the money an outstanding job. Money is NOT the problem...it's the curriculum. New school books are the worst things I have ever seen. Teachers coming out of schools ill prepared to teach...I am having some issues with some of them now and I sincerely believe they graduated from college from a need of teachers only. The BIGGEST thing is family. Not having a mom and dad is the worst thing ever to happen to the black community. Kids growing up with NO guidence or rules. You get these kids in a classroom and we expect miracles from the teachers. Sorry, teachers are not there to raise you kids..if you have em you better damn well take care of them. One of the better things Bush has done is PROMOTE family.

Darcaine
IWC.JASONASHLEY63
I agree with you Darcaine. Many Afro-Am. families are ran by a single parent. Think of this though. They still recieve guidance. The problem is where that single parent has to live. The neighborhoods most single parent kids grow up in help mold them. The schools and everything surrounding them. I guess what I am trying to say is no one sends their kids to be raised by a teacher. How dare you say that? Kids learn from guidance and teachers provide guidance.



[QUOTE]I would take issue with your post. I have African American neighbors in a very influentual neighborhood. They are regular working guys and gals just like everyone else here. They own property, pay taxes and raise a family. I think that WE are living the American dream. I think the black community as a whole needs to wake up and get away from people like Jackson and Sharpton and start embracing change. IMHO the breakdown of the black familly is to blame for 99% of what ails black America. You see a married black familly and you see a couple that is on par with the rest of America. The data is there. Having baby after baby out of wedlock is killing the black community...and if you keep listeng to the DNC it will only get worse.


The break down of the black family is what ails black america? How silly of you. There are as many black families that have both parents in the house that don't live this dream you claim you and your neighbors live...We as black americans probably should get away from non-leaders such as Jackson and Sharpton and maybe focus our attention on Louis Farrakahn...You are only a good black leader if you are hated by many...Right....
IWC.JASONASHLEY63
What really ails black america is the way we have no sense of direction and the set up of this nation will not let us rise to this equality. There is nothing in writing that says this because we were not suppose to even be here. Yeah yeah blacks sold blacks into slavery, but does that make it okay? Is that the new Caucasion way of making slavery not seem too wrong? I mean they found many ways to make it right. Why didn't they find a way to correct themselves after they decided they were wrong? Why not correct your mistake? There are many blacks such as the ones you mention Darcaine that think they are living the dream until they visit an unfamiliar place in the south and see for themselves that no matter how Americanized and civilized or whatever you would call it, they are still black and the only thing that makes them different from the blacks with these ugly tattoos and ghetto slang as you all say is the fact that they talk a little like them (whites) and they have the universal friend maker(money).

Hate amongst each other in the black community ails us also. The blacks who do make it are hated by the blacks who don't make it in America. The ones who make it are seen as sale outs because when they lived in the streets of black america they spoke our slang and lived in those single parent homes but when they dug themselves out of the hell whole they changed. They turned into an African-American...Smart articulate and well spoken and never returned to those streets that raised them. Is this bad? Should there be a hate towards them? I don't think so but many people do.

There are many black millionares, but do any of them spend their money wisely? When I say wisely I mean who do they give their money to? They give it right back to white america. That is the set up I am talking about. No matter what you do all the money runs right back through white america because white america owns everything. How can there be equality when we are at the feet of the master? happy.gif
Jaime
QUOTE(IWC.JASONASHLEY63 @ Nov 11 2002, 02:51 AM)
Why didn't they find a way to correct themselves after they decided they were wrong? Why not correct your mistake?

The horror of slavery HAS been corrected, Jason. I live in the South and I can assure you with 100% accuracy, slavery is ILLEGAL here. The 13th Amendment still prevails.

What do you want from white people/the government? What possibly could be done to/for low-income black communities that hasn't been tried? The federal government has provided billions, likely trillions, of dollars since the end of the Civil War trying to "even things out."

You are fantastic at articulating the problems. I get frustrated because it seems we try the same types of solutions over and over again, getting the same result, and then we wonder why. I would love to hear what types of solutions you have to offer.
turnea
Darcaine: It's no myth that inner-city schools are underfunded, trust me. If you were to visit one you'd know that the problem is not the books. (they are a little older than those in better funded schools, but they still contain the information needed to succeed) Let's not avoid it, money is the problem that's one of the harsh realities on capitalism. Poor teachers are also a big problem but this too can be traced back to money, good teachers want good pay.
kimpossible
Bush is trying to promote families by breaking up the fragile structure of single parent homes. It is unfortunate that single parent homes exist, but its a fact that needs to be dealt with. I agree that family ties are important in any and all communities. But welfare cuts disrupts the family homes,and fractures black (or minority) america.

How can a family grow and bond when the mother, father or both are working constantly because to be on welfare you have to work 35 hours a week? They are not going to be able to spend time with their kids, which means their children are going to try and find guidance elsewhere. That can be a teacher (if they're lucky) other kids, a babysitter etc. Cutting welfare makes it more difficult for a family to gain sound structure (especially if their children are younger. There is an obvious difference between leaving a six year old along and leaving a 16 year old alone.) Many single parent families have to work two jobs and long hours simply to make ends meet, and how is that helping poor minority america?

There have been racial breakthroughs within the last 30 years, but racism is still a problem.
Madtown
I agree with most of your posts Kim, but not this time. A great many mothers have to leave their children in the care of others while they work.

Why should they pay for single mothers to be home with thier children, while they themselves cannot stay at home, but must work to make ends meet?

MT
iwcrteran
I am intrigued by the posts of many of you. Strong family structures are important for change in America's minorities but not the only change. I know many Latin American families that have strong family structures but they cannot get breaks or move up in society because of racism and discrimination. Many families are held back because they try to go back and help those of their own culture. So I disagree with the notion that family is what ails African-American families.

To the main topic of this discussion. Many people come to America knowing the situation people of color face here. They come here because they still find more of an opprotunity to dream. No matter what that dream is at least they have the comfort to at least dream it. This is better because usually where they come from they never even find peace enough to sleep. The American dream may have not been meant for any one other than white Americans, but if that is true it is proven that the white americans at least want to try and share it. rolleyes.gif
Madtown
Some Mexicans working here send a large portion of their pay check home to their families. I wonder sometimes how they can live on whats left. sad.gif

MT
kimpossible
QUOTE(Madtown @ Nov 12 2002, 09:26 PM)
I agree with most of your posts Kim, but not this time.  A great many mothers have to leave their children in the care of others while they work.

Why should they pay for single mothers to be home with thier children, while they themselves cannot stay at home, but must work to make ends meet?

MT

Maybe Im stupid, but I dont think I quite understand what youre trying to say. Are you saying that there are working mothers (not in poverty) that must leave their children with others, and that why should those who are not poor support others who are? Where did I say that middle class working mothers need to support the poor?

Just want clarification before I say anything.
Nettie
This thread has really rambled so I will try to address some of it. First, I don't care what color or race is involved. There are many working mothers, single parents etc. Most of them seem to deal with it. Just because you are home all day does not insure that you will "bond' with your child. MT is right on track here. Why should anybody else have to pay for someone else’s childcare? There are a lot of drives, many successful I might add, for churches and other private sector charities to help in this. This needs to be encouraged! Faith based initiatives would come into play here. Also, more and more companies are providing care in their own buildings. Some of my children work because they have education and want to work. They pay, and provide for their children. I can't see where "bonding" is a problem. Much of this is just liberal "take care of meism".
IWC.JASONASHLEY63 Your post of Nov 11 fascinates me. Why do you say black millionaires give their money to white people?

kimpossible : I'm sorry, but this is not just a racial problem and it is definitely not just a black problem. By the way, I will not use African American until I am referred to as an Irish, German American, or at least something (respectable) besides white.
The most successful people of color and other minorities get that way, by not depending on others but by educating themselves, working hard and getting rid of self-pity.
Darcaine was correct when he said the urban and inner schools are not funded. The schools in the south in general are a mess due to bussing and no neighborhood schools. The quality has gone down, the teachers are poor. The black parents do not want this. They need their kids close to home...get better teachers and facilities, but save the darned bussing money and spend it on that! From there it worked with integrating the neighborhoods.
The teacher's unions are partially to blame here too. Well enough said at this late hour.
kimpossible
When did I say it was a racial problem?! I keep referring to minorities because 1) thats what this thread is about specifically, and 2) because they are the oppressed majority. I think there is an inherent CLASS problem in America, which people are more comfortable with defining as racism.

QUOTE
Darcaine was correct when he said the urban and inner schools are not funded. The schools in the south in general are a mess due to bussing and no neighborhood schools. The quality has gone down, the teachers are poor. The black parents do not want this. They need their kids close to home...get better teachers and facilities, but save the darned bussing money and spend it on that! From there it worked with integrating the neighborhoods.


Is that a typo? Darcaine said that urban schools were not UNDERFUNDED, while I said they were. If you are agreeing with me, then ignore the rest of this post. If not, here goes: You said the problem is not underfunding but lack of neighborhood schools, but contradict yourself a moment later when you say "get better teachers and facilities" which would insinuate better funding.

And, ha ha ha, the evil teacher's union is always to blame for making our kids stupid, and ruining our education. Are they evil because they want a decent livable salary?
IWC.JASONASHLEY63
Nettie I was simply stating that black millionaires have no choice but to put the money back into white billionaires hands. I am not shunning anything. Just simply pointing out the fact that we have no choice as black americans but to support white owned businesses.

Speding money in a black store is good for that black store but where does that black owned store get it's materials from? People in our community (black) always say buy from black owned businesses but they don't even realize how deep it goes.... happy.gif
Madtown
QUOTE(kimpossible @ Nov 12 2002, 02:18 PM)
.

How can a family grow and bond when the mother, father or both are working constantly because to be on welfare you have to work 35 hours a week? They are not going to be able to spend time with their kids, which means their children are going to try and find guidance elsewhere. That can be a teacher (if they're lucky) other kids, a babysitter etc. Cutting welfare makes it more difficult for a family to gain sound structure (especially if their children are younger. There is an obvious difference between leaving a six year old along and leaving a 16 year old alone.) Many single parent families have to work  two jobs and long hours simply to make ends meet, and how is that helping poor minority america?

There have been racial breakthroughs within the last 30 years, but racism is still a problem.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post Kim. I understood your point to be that welfare mothers (or fathers) should be able to stay home with thier children.

I don't agree with this because there are many mothers (and fathers) who would would stay home to care for their children if they had their "druthers."

Since welfare money comes from our taxes, a part of working mothers income would be paying for welfare mothers to stay home.

A welfare mother, earning minimum wage cannot afford child care and this is where the government should step in with decent child care progrmas.
I believe there are such programs in place in Wisconsin, or childcare grants are provided for working mother earning min. wage.

MT

Madtown
Madtown
A mix up here, pay no mind to this post. MT
kimpossible
Ah, I will try to clarify. I may end up not really clarifying anything, because I have a WHOLE philosphy built up on this, and it has little to do with welfare families and more to do with the current state of families overall. I was going to try to keep it "in topic" but I dont think thats possible. So I will simply start off and hope this doesnt get too long. I think that the a major problem in our society stems from lack of family structure (it doesnt matter what your social status is with this.) One of the major factors that determines a healthy child is a person who is attentive and caring. It is especially true for newborns and babies, they may grow up with some emotional/behavioral problems if they dont recieve a decent amount of human contact the first year (or two?) of life. I think that working mothers should have a generous maternity leave for at least the first year after giving birth. I also think that parents should be allowed a certain amount of time with their children, and I think the working world forces families to choose between this (I also have issues with this whole scenario, but I will not go into them, as now is not the time.) I think that there should also be an option to work 20-30 hours a week while your child is not school (meaning before they are able to attend school). A child needs a parent during those times. Current society shows us the product of workaholic parents, and how disassociated their children are. Most parents will choose working over time with kids.

It is necessary for the welfare recipient to choose between her children or working, for the obvious reason that it provides the child with a means to live (food, shelter, clothing.) I have no qualms with a 40 hour work week (well not really, again off topic), or having anyone work that (unless the have an infant to care for). What I am against is having the parent work more than that, and still not be able to recieve benefits. Isnt there a time limit on how long one can recieve welfare? I also dislike the fact that if someone was trying to stay off welfare, they would be forced to work two jobs at low pay, and not spend any time with their kids. I dont like the fact that if a poor person wanted to go to school, but had children, that they would be forced to work, because I believe school should count as a full time job. Of course, if they are going to school fulltime. If they are going half time, I believe it should be taken into consideration. Esp. with being mandated to work certain hours to recieve welfare "benefits".

Agh, I dont know if that really made any sense at all. In short, I think we should be more lenient to new parents, because the child's first years are important to how they will percieve the rest of the world, and shapes many attitudes and behaviours. The more time a kid has with its parents during those years the better.
jjirout
kimpossible:
The family structure has changed drastically.

(I've noticed how needy high school students are; this is likely because they do not get the attention that they need at home - with parents are working. In response to this, schools have become more "touchy feelly" in their approach to children - playing the "parent" role rather than the "educator" role.)

Didn't we start with "the man's world" and in this world, it was women who cared for the children.... Well, now that women are competing, when is "the man's world" going to become "the man / woman's world"? Forgive me for sounding optimistic, but it seems to me that women, particulary women in power, would need to introduce the ideas that you suggested - to force them into this restrictive social structure that we have. Since women are getting more and more powerful, perhaps we will see a support for the family put into place at some point.

Or, if women do not instill these changes, we are going to end up with "communal" living, and schools will end up being the primary influence over children. dry.gif

Or so it seems to me.

jjirout
Madtown
Kimpossible, I hate to say it, but the answer is to think long and hard before you bring a child into this world. Because when you do, that child had better be the most important thing in your life. You had better know, BEFORE you become a parent that you can support your child.

I know there will be some who will have the child and then worry about their education. I'm not against government loans to cover education and child care, but how much better for everyone if they would get educated first and have a family second.

Some work places do give two or three months maternity leave, but I don't think it's with pay and many workers are not able to take advantage of it because they need the money.

MT

PS I agree with much of your post, but it's just not practical.
kimpossible
Its not entirely unpractical, Sweden has an extremely good program for mothers. I figure as long as its working somewhere, it doesnt mean its impossible. Sweden allows mothers a year of maternity leave with 80% pay. There may be other countries like that, but Im not really hip on everyone elses welfare system.

If the world were perfect, people would have children on purpose and have their entire life sorted out beforehand, but we know thats not always the case. C'est la vie, I think that we should at least try to make it so we have healthier children, instead of disassociated ones. It seems that our society expects everyone to be superman, and act like theres no consequences....
Madtown
QUOTE(jjirout @ Nov 18 2002, 04:54 PM)
The family structure has changed drastically.

(

I've been thinking about how the family structure has changed during the last 50 years. When I was young it was just taken for granted that when you became a mother you quit your job and stayed home with your child.

In my case my husband had health insurance, but mainly for the big stuff. It didn't cover office calls and meds. The dr was paid each month, like the gas & electric. While the kids (6) were young we usually had a running balance.

Whenever I needed extra money for Christmas or a vacation, I just picked up a part time job in the evenings or weekends. This is always easy to do. Jobs are easy to find if you don't need benefits, and you can work for less if you don't need to pay for child care.

When my youngest child entered kindergarten I found a part time job at a school, which was perfect because I was off when the kids were not in school.

The reason I started back to work was so that my kids could play hockey and ski. One thing led to another and I ended up working for 30 years.

I don't know when a two family income became necessary for most people. I don't know when health care became almost unmanageable
iwcchen
I think no matter what racial is , firstly they should respect themselves, then they can gain the respect from other people and other racials. So i think every one is equal in America. happy.gif
Nettie
QUOTE
I've been thinking about how the family structure has changed during the last 50 years. When I was young it was just taken for granted that when you became a mother you quit your job and stayed home with your child.

This make me feel nostalgic. You couldn't be more right. It has changed. Whether it is bad or good I just don't know. I wonder sometimes at priorities. TPLEASE KNOW THAT NONE OF THIS OPINION IS DIRECTED TO YOU PERSONALLY IN ANY WAY . But I was thinking that you went to work at times so your kids to ski. Good for you. What I get from this is that you were home during their young years and after school. The point I am trying to make, very slowly and with difficuty, is when did our priorities change? When did our standard of living get so high that we need 2 incomes to support it? We hear so much about working mothers, but I wonder how much of this is from necessity and how much from want. If we were all more content with less perhaps things would be different. This is so hard for me to put into words. I am not a writer obviously. But perhaps our standards have gotten too high for our own good. wacko.gif
Rancid Uncle
If I may quote the great profit Charles Barkley:
"There is no black and white, the is no conservative or liberal, we all want the same things."
I think he said that on the best Damn sports show period
MOUSE
kimpossible
QUOTE
Posted on Nov 19 2002, 04:21 PM
Its not entirely unpractical, Sweden has an extremely good program for mothers. I figure as long as its working somewhere, it doesnt mean its impossible. Sweden allows mothers a year of maternity leave with 80% pay. There may be other countries like that, but Im not really hip on everyone elses welfare system.

It is important here to note that the population of Sweden is what? Less than 10 million people? The birth rate per woman is less than l.5 The size of the whole country is 1/2 the size of TX. This comparison just won't work. By the way, the unemployment rate posted was 6.3%. So there are problems there also.
We are uniquely large and have a large percentage of immigrants so our problems/solutions/dreams are different from anywhere in the world. Honestly, I think the dreams can be accomplished, but dependency on the government is not the way, and immigrants should not expect it to be.
kimpossible
QUOTE(Nettie @ Nov 23 2002, 02:03 PM)
QUOTE
I've been thinking about how the family structure has changed during the last 50 years. When I was young it was just taken for granted that when you became a mother you quit your job and stayed home with your child.

This make me feel nostalgic. You couldn't be more right. It has changed. Whether it is bad or good I just don't know. I wonder sometimes at priorities. TPLEASE KNOW THAT NONE OF THIS OPINION IS DIRECTED TO YOU PERSONALLY IN ANY WAY . But I was thinking that you went to work at times so your kids to ski. Good for you. What I get from this is that you were home during their young years and after school. The point I am trying to make, very slowly and with difficuty, is when did our priorities change? When did our standard of living get so high that we need 2 incomes to support it? We hear so much about working mothers, but I wonder how much of this is from necessity and how much from want. If we were all more content with less perhaps things would be different. This is so hard for me to put into words. I am not a writer obviously. But perhaps our standards have gotten too high for our own good. wacko.gif

You know I wonder the exact same things! Which were the issues I had with a two income home, that is tearing our families apart. Do we really need a car a person? Do we really need a cable television AND a tv in every room? Etc. etc. But I feel alot of this stems from the same fact that we have VERY little cushioning if we fail in our endeavors, and that we are overcompensating.
Madtown
QUOTE(kimpossible @ Nov 23 2002, 11:14 PM)
. The point I am trying to make, very slowly and with difficuty, is when did our priorities change? When did our standard of living get so high that we need 2 incomes to support it? We hear so much about working mothers, but I wonder how much of this is from necessity and how much from want. , and that we are overcompensating.


I'm not being defensive in this post, just trying to think this out. I know we could have managed if I had not gone to work after the kids were all in school. So It wasn't out of necessity, but in a way it was. My kids loved (and still love) sports. They were good skaters. They wanted to speed skate and join the hockey club. The school sponsored ski trips and they wanted to go with their friends. I think busy kids are happy kids, not getting into trouble. I guess I wanted them to have these experiences so I went to work part time. but I was always home when school was out, at least until the younger ones were in high school.

They all had jobs when they were old enough, baby sitting, paper routes, one worked at a gas station, another at a grocery store,but I didn't want them working too many hours. I wanted school to be their main job.

Sometimes I think working in itself is an expense . Transportation, clothing, child care, fast food. I wonder how much the second income really contributes especially in the early years before children are in school.
FadeTheButcher
There is no such thing as "equality" in America. There never has been any "equality" in America, there isn't any "equality" now, and there will never be any "equality" in the future. There are no two individuals, much less populations, that are "equal" anywhere in America nor is there any proof of anyone's innate "equality." Such a Straw Man is absurd - not to mention ridiculous. No two individuals experience the world from the same perspective. The only thing the world has ever known is inequality and that is the only thing it will ever know. Equality is a figment of the imagination of utopians. It does not exist. It is a ghost. Equality only exists in things such as Mathematics, such as the Law of Identity, and in a few other areas. There is no "equality" before any "law" either. There is a trial either before a judge or a judge and a jury - which are for the most part rarely the same.
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