Most of the the negative aspects of prostitution that people list (abuse by pimps, disease, etc.) are problems that legalization would at least partially resolve. From what I see here, the main reason people are against it is their own morality. The problem with legislating morals is this: the next question is always "WHOSE morals?" I understand many of you find prostitution to be immoral. That is fine. Why should the law reflect that? Why should people that don't agree with your morals live by them? I don't see anything wrong with everybody doing what they want, as long as the parties involved are consenting adults. So many people seem to feel that they need to protect women from themselves. If you don't like prostitution, don't be a client or a prostitute. Simple as that. I have trouble understanding why people are bothered by the fact that somebody is living life according to THEIR OWN morals. This moral collectivism concept is a social disease, in my opinion.

That was a easy question to answer. I wish all things in life were that easy.

1. Make it legal and regulate it

2. Hopefully it will eliminate a lot of pimps(the lowest creature on earth)

3. Have to pass a test every so often to hopefully help control a percentage of diseases

4. Tax it to pay for the regulation of the industry.

5. It is the oldest profession and you are not going to eliminate it. Try to eliminate the parasites that take advantage of young females.

That comment really irked me...can't we aim just a little higher for our daughters about what they should walk with pride and dignity for?

Has anyone noticed the trend in this debate. No one is worried about their sons becoming prostitutes or for men to be able to sell themselves with pride and better protection and acceptance. I think just the fact that this is a profession that mostly focuses on the female and not the male should hint to the fact that some serious inequalities are occurring. Granted I know men are prostitutes but I would guess the number is very low in comparison...I also have known men who in times of trouble have sold themselves for sex but this was when they were boys...not men and had little opportunity and options in society for themselves.

Of course women do it for money, why else? Most people here in America work and go to their jobs for money too.Yet why would we ever want the gov to sanction this kind of choice. ? Can't some things remain in the private sector? Can't the exchange of sex between consenting adults under whatever circumstances they both agree on just remain as a private exchange?

I know the last thing I want is for my girls to grow up in a society that legalizes prostitution..and even goes as far as to dictate and regulate it.
I think it should be something that we consider to be more or less immoral. I don't think it is something young girls should aspire to be...I don't think I should ever have to enter the unemployment line and have a job opening for prostitution being thrust upon me.

Somethings are abnormal behavior or only can be accpeted in a subculture and that is fine with me...I have no problems with people wanting to engage in non conformist behaviors. I just also think that it is also perfectly fine to keep those behaviors, lifestyles and beliefs in the proper perspective. And to remember that it is ok as a society to have a few things we cherish as accepted moral behavior

So I did not vote...I agree with Olympia... I think it should be decriminalized but not legalized.

So feel free to consider it immoral. Feel free to raise your children to see at as immoral. Why should everyone have to live that way? Who exactly would thrust this job on you? Be one if you want to, don't be one if you don't want to. The point is MORALITY SHOULD NOT BE LEGISLATED. Why should laws reflect morals, when the action in question is harmless? I'll say it again, moral collectivism is a cancer.

I think it should be legalized but not regulated. There is no need to spend valuable resources regulating such a thing. If two people choose to have sex wether it be for money or not so be it. But don't waste my time or the government's time writing up policy on it.

It's a slam dunk in my opinion. This being a free country, two adults should be able to have sex under whatever terms they wish.

If you are worried about your daughter becoming a prostitute then educate her and instill morals into her that would keep her from doing it. Just because it is legal does not mean that all of a sudden all the young women would start flocking over to it.

I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out why a woman would go to jail for taking money offered her for sex just once, but as long as she's doing it for free, she can do it as many times a day as physically possible.

Do we make promiscuity illegal?

When we start outlawing sluts, only outlaws will have sluts.

I'm torn on this issue so I put down undecided. I try to think like a libertarian on social laws but I see the benefits of regulating things like gambling and prostitution. Let's face it, I don't want teenagers walking the streets of my neighborhood offering sex. So if it is to be legalized I think it should be heavily regulated.

I also am undecided about the psychological effects of prostitution. (I do know a circle of former and present prostitutes) One of the problems that legalization would fix would be that prostitutes would become legitimate citizens in the eyes of the law and the IRS and perhaps (Hooker Corp.?) through corporate benefits. Then they could establish credit, get loans from places that didn't charge 25% APR etc. I am pretty close friends with a young woman who makes a good deal of money but she has to spend it in a variety of ways that surprise me, and she is loathe to put money in a bank. (Her boyfriend borrowed her luxury sedan and left a roach in the ashtray and the car and the car got impounded when she got arrested on a call. She had payed $15 K down and it took a lot of effort to get the car back and keep the loan company from repoing it)

I think the pimp thing will stay around if prostitution becomes legalized, or at least the continuation of abusive relationships. That is asking a lot from a partner to send a loved one off to work to have sex with other people all day. The people who accept these terms tend to expect to be showered with gifts without offering any type of commitment.

From the women prostitutes I have seen a longer term story of I have seen one happy ending, one move back to the small town with no financial security to live with parents and try to raise a child, one long term unhappy person with very short work weeks and a high expense account, one abusive junkie mom who mothered a series of children kept two of them and named them after brands of liquor and fended off a few lame attempts by the state to take the two children she kept despite their very poor condition, one veteran losing her looks who got a section 8 housing allotment and tried to live a relatively straight life with one of her three children for a couple of years and she is presently wandering from state to state in search of some stable situation (she just moved in with her 19 year old married daughter)

So I am torn. I don't think it is a smart career choice and I think it is psychologically damaging. But it is a way for a young woman to make a good living without working too much or too steadily, but she exposes herself (no pun intended) to dangerous conditions (health and violence).

OK I'm done rambling.

The US has no federal law disallowing prostitution it is only local laws.

People keep on mentioning brothels so I will tell you what I have gleamed from talking to a few people and reading the brothel boards: Many of the women work on the side as independents. They go to the brothels because they don't have to screen, set-up incalls, advertise, etc. The idea of a bunch of ladies being lined up side by side and a guy choosing one kills me. That is much more dehumanizing and self-esteem deflating than anything I can think of. The houses take half of the money and then charge a room and board fee as well as making you get tested each week. I think a brothel could be done well, but they currently rank below Hoover.

Agencies also generally take half or more than half but some are changing to where they are treating the women more like independents and the agency is more like a screening and advertising venue. Like an assistant.

Independent women are free to pick and choose whomever they want. Anne Marie is $12,000/day with a 2 day minimum... that eliminates a lot of potential calls right there. Almost all (99%) of the ladies I know screen using publicly found information and all of them screen using intuition which is the most important part of screening. If your gut says no... don't do it. Using your intuition to decide who to see or not will save keep you safe 99% of the time.

Streetwalkers are not something I would want to have in my neighborhood and they could still be ticketed for public nuisance even if prostitution was decriminalized. Those women have some cajunas though.

If prostitution were confined to certain parts of town then people would know who did what where and when. That doesn't sound very kewl. Might as well fill out paperwork and stuff.

Most of the ladies that I know work out of apartments that are seperate from their homes. Frequently two ladies will share a two bedroom to split costs and keep it out of their own home. A number of ladies I know see people in hotels where things will go unnoticed (Suites rented by the week and made to look like comfortable apartments.). Some even rent out offic space so that the traffic is completely unnoticed. And a few provide out of their own home and make sure to see a very limited number.

I understand that no one wants it in their neighborhood... but I do not think that any type of regulation will actually work. Pay taxes, yes! Try to regulate something where someone... or everyone can easily skirt the rules? No.

*huggs*

Oly.

I know this is a common view in society, but, I ask you, why, exactly? In many societies (Japan comes to mind) courtesan's are considered an essential part of society. It is really only in 'Victorian' America that it has the connotations it does. So, the question becomes: "Should we eliminate prostitution, or change our perception of it?" As has been pointed out in several posts, if promiscuity isn't illegal, then what exactly is the big taboo about prostitution? To me, it all seems part of the sexual hangup that afflicts much of America. I also think it is this very hangup that puts prostititution into the situations that so many here seem to think is wrong. If it were legalized, I think it would become a much more respectable occupation, thereby eliminating most of the flaws listed in this thread.

Perhaps the question to ask is, How would it look on my resume? What would my fiance think if he knew? What if the prospective in-laws find out?

Should I mention it when I apply for a mortgage?

So you see, it has a lot more ramifications than just Victorian attitudes.

Good old Ann Landers used to say that if you wouldn't want to see it published on the front page of a newspaper, then you probably shouldn't be doing it.

I definitely agree with you.

America, as a whole, seems to be very uptight and
judgmental about sexual behavior.

Yet, we Americans seem to be as interested in SEX
as much as any other country.

Perhaps we could give women an ounce of respect
and grant them the choice to do what they want with their own bodies.
That would include freedom to engage in sexual activities
(for money, if so desired).

I don't like to throw generalities out there, but I'll make an
exception this time: It seems to be the white, Republican males
that have the biggest problem with women being allowed to do
what they want with their own bodies (i.e. prostitution, abortion).
It all centers around that foreboding 3 letter word!

These are all questions that would probably be answered differently by each individual, and while they may be a part of what deters you from persuing a career as a prostitute, they may not present a problem for someone else.

For example, on a resume or a mortgage application, an alternative title would suffice...entertainer, perhaps? These are all situations that should be decided by the person involved. The government doesn't need to protect people from what the neighbours will think.

Exactly. Nor should they.

It is previously agreed-upon community standards that define what constitutes and does not constitute acceptable behavior. That is how I believe it should be, unless the community condones something as egregious as stonings, burnings, beatings and lynchings.

As a NIMBY, I would have a hard time supporting legislation to legalize prostitution, just as I would not want a nuclear plant or a toxic waste dump in the neighborhood.

Well, something like this depends on every individual person. Some might not care what people think of them. Some might actually try to find a partner that would accept them for who they are. The idea that nobody would want to have a relationship with a prostitute is absurd. I would have absolutely no problem having a relationship with a prostitute. To me, an open relationship is not the same as cheating. I would want her to retire from it if we actually started getting serious, but if we were just seeing each other, who cares?

I definitely agree that the way we see prostitutes is a part of our society's unhealthy, repressed attitude about sex. This is the same society where most parents would rather have their kids see a guy getting his head blown off with a .50 than nudity or god forbid sex. Is this normal? To be so ashamed of and afraid of basic bodily functions. To be so ashamed of and afraid of the human body, the most perfect work of art. Of course this society will treat somebody who has sex for a living in an unfavorable light. Look at how we treat sex!

Very few men have any problem with prostitution at all I think... they may be hypocritical and say they do in public but even as an escort my favorite men are generally upscale, white, conservative men. They are very respectful in private even if they would have to damn the ground I walk on in public to please the churches and the rest of the community. It's kinna funny to me. The main problem is that occasionally a mayor will get a bug up their butt or the cops (especially in smaller places) get bored.

Oly.

You don't sound like you are willing to "accept" them, so why should anyone else. What skills do you think she would have after being a prostitute for so many years?

I myself believe that it should be legal as long as it is regulated (like if a prostitute that has AIDS, he/she discloses that he/she does). I think it would be better if law enforcement personnel were devoting their time to stopping violent crimes rather than prostitution.

Being a prostitute, like any other job, has its own set of skills, and while not all of those skills would carry over to another career, a good portion of them would, especially those skills that have to do with interpersonal relations.

Additionally, if a prostitute is looking for a career change but doesn't have the skill, s/he can take the same path that the rest of us take and go back to school.

There are other things to consider when forming our opinions on legalizing prostitution. It’s about more than “two consenting adults should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies and money” issue.





In European countries where prostitution is legal, another issue would be the health of the prostitute.





Another huge issue in Europe is trafficking. Although European countries have laws agaisnt trafficking women for sex, it occurs in high numbers.

Sex work and Sexual Exploitation in the European Union

Edited:
I am for decriminalizing prostitution, but I don’t think we should fool ourselves into thinking it solves problems. The ramifications of legally bought sex throughout the states could be devastating in many ways to include, increased crime of trafficking sex workers, increased crime of rape and other physical violence, mental and physical illness of the woman.

I don't believe government should regulate, tax or require health examines for sex workers.

Perhaps you should read over my post again? Here I will be helpful and re-quote myself on something I think you should consider and if you choose to ...respond.



I never asked that everyone live the way I do...where did I make such demands? If you are so against morality being legislated and laws reflecting society's morals than why do you want the law involved? Why do we need the state to tell us how we need to or not need to think about this issue? Can't sex just remain in the private realm? Do we really need everything we do, engage ourselves with and every human exchange we make to be an exchange in the market...to then be state regulated? If we are going to legalize prostitution and tax it and regulate it and make it all open to society and then somehow not thrust our ideals or morals on it ...exactly how will that happen...care to explain? We already have the pornography industry telling us how a women should look act and behave in order to be sexy, appealing or attractive so now we can have that sort of moral collectivism... you are so woeful of... dictating actual live sexual exchanges too ...lovely! I have no idea how you hope to achieve any of this.

As far as my comments go in regards to forced prostitution...go take a look at the Netherlands. I think their issues exemplify my reasons against having government sanctioned prostitution. If prostitution is as legitimate profession as being a seamstress how would an unemployed women living in a state that demands that any person making unemployment claims must actively seek work..not feel state pressure to prostitute themselves? How does the opportunity for a woman to work as a prostitute not get promoted?
Also there is still huge amounts of illegal prostitution occurring in the Netherlands and it is still considered a problem. The job of the prostitute is not a popular one and is almost entirely done by immigrants to the Netherlands...immigrants who are socially and economically the lowest entrants in the workforce. Violence against women in the Netherlands is high in fact violent sexual crimes are TWICE there as what they are here in the US. Employment figures for women are fairly low..and the level at which women participate and are rewarded in the work force is lower than the US.

So if legalizing prostitution is such a liberating thing for women why do we not see this reflected in Dutch society?



I do not really understand your question.....who said courtesans were essential to society? Men maybe? And is this a current perception or historic? Courtesans are European btw...but maybe you meant Geishas? Who were slaves...sold by their peasant families at around age 5 or 6.
Besides all the criteria I have applied to make my comparisons of women's inequalities between the US and the Netherlands I would guess we would see an even greater gap between the US and Japan.

Again I am not for laws making prostitution illegal...I am not for laws making it legal. I think somethings in this world are no business of the state in any form, to permit or to restrict

It is interesting that a person who thinks prostitution is okay would require his wife-to-be to abandon it when he married her. Why, she could still be honing her skills!
And she could bring that new skill home and demonstrate it for her husband! Who cares from whom or how many other males she learned it!

Of course, why should the woman abandon her chosen profession for the sake of one man? It's all about freedom, isn't it? Remember, morality doesn't enter in!

I wonder how many who eschew the restrictions of moral tyranny would actually be content in a society where indeed, anything goes.

Not really, Paladin. A person can support someone else's right to do something without agreeing with it on a personal level.



I don't imagine that most people want to live in a society where "anything goes." We all want to feel safe and secure, but I don't have a problem with prostitution, because it's a consentual act between two adults. I don't care if the John's motivation is pleasure, loneliness, boredom, etc. or if the prostitute is doing it for the cash or because she likes doing it.

Obviously there are both positives and negatives to the issue, and I haven't yet decided if I agree more with legalization or decriminalization, but I can say that prohibition forces women further into the shadows than they should be. It only serves the people who don't want to acknowledge that prostitution exists on the level that it actually does.

Some may view this attitude as a sign of the declining morals in Western society, but I can't think of a time period that was morally superior (which is a matter of perception anyhow).

Additionally, I wouldn't be as concerned about whether or not women were working with an agency or as independents. That would be their decision based on their skills, but I would maintain a prohibition against soliciting on the streets or at least confine those women to certain districts in the same manner that they restrict the locations for adult bookstores. That would take care of some of the NIMBY problems.

Cyan, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth (or in this case, fingers). I was just trying to make a point that not everyone would automatically look at a prostitute in an unfavorable light. I never said anything about everybody wanting to be with one, or me wanting to be with one. That is exactly the point, all I'm arguing in favor of is the freedom of choice without gov't persecution.

As far as people listing all the harmful effects, my question is "So what?" Do you really think that the gov't needs to protect adult women from themselves? Make the info available to all, and let everyone choose for themselves. I personally would never pay for sex. I would also never be a gigolo. This is strictly a matter of CHOICE, which people should have, even if they do not choose the right one.

As far as states forcing people to find employment, I am yet to hear of one case where the gov't forced an unemployed woman to become a stripper or a porn star. Why would it be different with prostitution?

As for why I am for government regulation, it is just for the fact that prostitutes, if they perform a legal service in a for-profit business, should have to make that their services are safe for the customers. Same as a restaurant has to make sure their food is prepared in a safe and clean manner (for the safety of the consumer), a brothel should make sure the prostitutes aren't carrying diseases, are using protection, etc. Just like any other business has to provide a safe environment for their employees, so should a brothel. Just normal business standards. This is NOT legislated morality.

Also, I fail to see how the porn industry is telling me what kind of women to like. Supposedly models and Hollywood also do this, but I like women that are quite different from models. If they are trying to do this, apparently they failed.

Yes, those white, male conservatives surely "talk the talk."
I've always wondered what they do behind closed doors.
Are they as judgmental and condescending as they seem.
Or are they humans with flaws too???

It's been my observation that those who shout the loudest
about any given "cause" often have something to hide.
(i.e. Jimmy Swaggert, Rush Limbaugh - just to
name a couple of white, consevative men)

The saying is, "they talk the talk, but do they walk the walk?" And there are many good, God fearing men that do.

I find it disturbing, that just because someone adheres to a certain set of ethics and morals, are construed by liberals and those that have biases against religions and traditional values, as potential hypocrites because of a few people that have made some poor decisions.

I see your point, Belladonna, but I submit that decriminalizing prostitution would go a long way toward protecting sexworkers from rape, assault and other crimes. As it stands, many women are reluctant and afraid to report a violent client to the police. It's equally dubious that police are overly sympathetic to a prostitute or escort who says she has been raped. Sexworkers are easy prey for l predators because of their devalued status in society.

Additionally, the removal of the legal ramifications of prostitution would help reduce the social stigma associated with the occupation and the stress that surely must go along with being a professional sexworker.

Something that has come to my mind here are some of the comments such as that by Rev_Del Fuego that went, You don't sound like you are willing to "accept" them, so why should anyone else. What skills do you think she would have after being a prostitute for so many years?

There seems to be a strong whiff of patriarchy coming through here. Are men intimidated by a woman who has just as much or more sexual experience as they do? Are prostitutes "soiled doves" whom are forever damaged goods because they chose to be paid for sex rather than give it away for free?

Truth be told, the incredibly imprecise process that most men and women go through before they end up in bed together is also a game of dates, movies, dinners, and evenings where money is spent with the unspoken objective that after "X" amount of nights out somebody is going to put out. You're paying for it one way or the other. When you're paying a prostitute though you don't have to bring flowers or promise to call her tomorrow.

A successful Florida attorney told me that he preferred escorts because he didn't have time to do the dating scene. He wasn't interested in blind dates, inter-office romances or cruising bars. When he wanted to go out with a beautiful woman and know there was no doubt he was going to get lucky, it just made more sense for him to hire some company for the night, weekend or whatever. That sounds kind of cold and calculated, but to the attorney it just made good sense and a better usage of his time that some tiresome courtship ritual that might or might not lead to getting horizontal.

Yes, treating physical intimacy with about as much emotional investment as getting your tires rotated isn't at all romantic and totally devoid of real passion. But for some guys, they'd rather just cut to the chase, get their freak on and be done with it.

Or as one escort put it, "They don't pay us for sex. They pay us to leave after the sex."

You missed the point. There are very few men that would be able to kiss their prostitute wife after a long night of work. It doesn't matter how many she had before, it's how much she getting now that's going to get to you.


Your paying to get to know her as a person, not to know her personal areas.

Oh yeah so what...I mean it is only our society...the society you and I have to live in, the society my children will be raised in..why should we care what we do in it..how we influence it and what standards we produce?

I asked you and I was really hoping you would answer so I will ask again...how will we not place our morals, expectations and standards by legalizing it? Once we are fully involved, all accepting and regulating how will we not alter it's perception in society?

Why do we need a law to tell us it is ok to make our choices? Do we really need laws to instruct humans that killing is morally wrong? Or that slavery is immoral?

I think a few of us have shown you that prostitution is not a victimless crime and in fact does effect how society views, perceives and interprets women and their role in society...and I think it is terribly callous of you to say...who cares? I care as a women ...and as a mother of two girls again I care. I have lived in European society and unfortunately probably one of the worse countries when it comes to women's rights etc. The country I lived in has a very open sex trade there..and in fact have a special visa for sex workers. I have never met so many women who had been bought as wives ever in my life. I have never been yelled at out in public by so many men before in my life....but who cares right? I should expect this because I am at the low end of society...an immigrant woman..the same woman that in fact are the prostitutes in these countries...but I am sure they are just making a choice out of the many many choices they were offered.



How is it when a woman looks through the newspaper and sees all the ads for dancer or entertainer that choice is not being forced upon her? In some areas of the US that is one of the only active job listings for women in the classifieds. So how would it be any different for prostitution?
Placing ads and being able to openly seek, promote in such a open and community forum such as the local paper somehow gives the perception that the community itself condones it....you look in the paper and again and again see everyday that people want to hire accountants and fry cooks you automatically add the idea that being an accountant or a fry cook is something you could pursue. How would this be any different with prostitution? No to mention I doubt many of the ads..much like the ones for dancers and entertainers will be directed towards the employment of men...so it would also be again one of those women's work things.



The buying and selling of people...mostly women.... should in fact be treated just like the idea of buying and selling hamburgers...I don't agree. Again you care to attempt to explain to me your rationale that this will have no harm..will have no effect to what our collective moralism is ? How is this in itself not a projection of morality? And just how far do you take you ideas that society is not and should not legislate morality?
Are you against our society imposing our morals on families who practice honor killings?



Oh come on...there is such a thing as popular perception isn't there? I know as a girl my first glimpse and introduction to sex was from a pornographic magazine and I am sure that is the case for many many young people through out our country. ..you think this makes no impression?
You going to tell me those magazines, movies etc. are not selling a product? And have not honed their product for universal appeal?

This doesn't make sense. The majority of the jobs out there are not based on gender at all. If there are jobs in the paper, there are jobs for women. Am I misunderstanding you?

NT,

My personal belief is that decriminalizing prostitution will not add value to those who wish to participate in the profession. Nor will it stop rape or other violent crimes.

I believe the number of violent/sex related crimes reported may increase because the sex worker won't be worried about being arrested themselves.

Could you elaborate a little on how you think legal prostitution would protect them from crime?

Belladonna, I want to decriminalize prostitution, not legalize it.

I base this on the account of several escorts I have interviewed. They correctly presume the social stigma of prostitution will probably never fully be removed, but rather than worrying if a undercover cop is trying to entrap them, they would prefer to be able to ply their trade without fear of legal sanction.

As it stands now, a sexworker who is assaulted, robbed or raped are treated like so much meat by law enforcement. How can you rape someone who has sex for money? Well, violence against women is still violence even if the woman is a prostitute and not a nun. Essentially, I'm saying equal protection under the law means just that and because we don't approve of another person's profession shouldn't be they are more subceptible to being a victim of violence than anyone else.

I think the absolute opposite will happen if sexworkers no longer fear being arrested. They should feel more free to report crimes against them and the higher public profile of the profession will make it more difficult for criminals to prey upon prostitutes whom presently are treated as second-class citizens by the legal system.

Aye Aye captain!

I don't think you can legalize prostitution across the board even if you wanted to simply because in every county, city, and state there will have to exist authorized zones where prostitution is legal and illegal zones of operation like business zoning and residential zoning.

Certainly, you wouldn't see a redlight district in the same block as the neighborhood church or near schools. So like they do in Nevada, it would be outside city limits in many areas I'd suspect. Well, there is still rampant prostitution going on inside the illegal zones of clark county in Las Vegas, eventhough you can go 1 hour away to get the goods. Same with Reno.

Unless it's available like convenience stores on every corner, I don't think the impact really will be beneficial. By that I mean that while the Nevada whorehouses do strictly take measures to provide a safe environment to engage in such activities, there are still vice squads that have to tackle the problems unchecked prostitution brings with it in the city because so many people for whatever reason just don't want to travel to those areas I guess.

So...I don't think it would do what most people for it are hopeful for.

You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but it doesn't seem to be a very informed one.

Just because you know a couple people who didn't like being prostitutes doesn't mean you can generalize about *EVERYONE* who does so. There are an awful lot of people out there who actually ENJOY it and WANT to do it and certainly don't consider it abusive or whatever.

The church example is a perfect one for this. Just because they dislike homosexuals based on their faulty and incomplete understanding doesn't mean that their opinions have any merit. Everyone is an individual and any opinion that lumps everyone in a particular group together is faulty by definition.

Yes, you're right, statistical information, indepth research that has been provided on this thread and that accessible on the net and interactions with prostitutes is not an informed opinion.

Your are right about one other thing, some prostitutes like being whores and are seduced by the money.

It IS like buying hamburger. The point is you are still buying something. Normal business rules should apply. I don't understand how you are saying that safe business practices in prositution are legislated morality, when already every other business has to follow these standards.

Honestly, it is nobody's concern how you want to raise your kids except your own. You demand that society as a whole has these moral standards, just to make sure your have an easier time being a parent. Not enough reason for me.

And if you are so worried about women needed to be protected from their own choices, lets ban sexy clothes, obviously a woman walking around late at night wearing practically nothing is putting herself at risk. Clothes like that being legal helps contribute to the "overall violence against women". And makes people "objectify women", whatever that means.

As far as the sex worker visas, obviously these women considered this a good option, or they would not have applied for this visa. Let them choose, they're not trying to take away your freedom of choice, are they?

And you were yelled at by men? Yeah, that is a valid reason to be anti-prostitution. Tell me, while they were yelling, did they frown at you too?

And you saying that seeing ads in the newspaper FORCES a woman into becoming a sex worker? Seeing ads doesn't force people to do anything, I see Ford ads all the time, and still had the choice to buy an Acura.

As far as popular perception, I once again say WHO CARES? Popular perception is not a problem that needs to be adressed by the government. If you have a problem with popular perception, try to make it unpopular, that's your right. I personally hate all that Abercrombie, Dockers pretty boy crap. And it is quite popular. And I excercise my choice of not looking like that, but I do NOT expect that the popular perception changes to suit my needs, and definately not through government intervention.

I think Bucket's point was well made.

Your contention has been 'who cares what goes on in anyone's bedroom? It's no one's business but theirs!' A point which I would agree with. However, when that individual's choice negatively impacts the public at large, it is no longer a matter of strictly bedroom behavior. IF the legalization of prostitution would seriously adversely impact society as a whole, and I were convinced that would be the case, I would be against it on those grounds. Her experience in Europe provided her with an opportunity to witness the effects first-hand. That doesn't necessarily indicate that those effects would be the same here, but it is certainly food for thought.

Society would not last long without standards for public conduct. No matter how vigilant, a parent cannot shield his/her children from negative influence, if the influence is everywhere. To suppose that the public has no interest in protecting the innocent under the banner of 'personal choice' is wrong. It is, in fact, a concern to everyone how Bucket and I raise our children. If I taught them to be pick-pockets and vandals, or abused them physically or emotionally, society would and should intervene on thier behalf. Likewise, if my ability as a parent is undermined because the seedy influence is everywhere, my ability to raise my children to be thoughtful, respectful and self-respecting adults is undermined.

It is also noteworthy that there is no industry which assumes the employment of a human being is the equivalent of a hamburger sale. Doctors and dentists are not prevented from working because they are HIV positive, and their patients are not routinely tested for the disease before surgery. Personel are expected to be competent at their jobs, and certain types of employment require training or education to meet that standard. However, those civilian people (in this country) are not screened for disease and cannot be refused employment on those grounds.

Prostitution has been with us for centuries and has yet to cause the fall of morality in the world. As long as there are those willing to buy there will be those willing to sell.

If a woman has sex with multiple partners in this puritanical and repressive society she's a slut. If a man has sex with multiple partners he's a stud. If a woman has sex with multiple partners and charges for it she's a prostitute. It's time to get over these hypocritical double standards and stop making such a big deal about what people do behind closed doors. This isn't just about declining moral standards. This is about people engaged in acts of sex outside the boundaries of conventional thinking.

Legalilzed prostitution hasn't worked in Europe? Well, that's the opinion of one poster and I can respect it. However, Americans live in the only industrialized nation that doesn't have universal health care for its citizens and Europe seems to do quite well with that particular social experiment. The possibility that decriminalizing prostitution might not be a panacea doesn't mean it isn't worth making the effort.

I guess you are misunderstanding me. I have lived in some pretty repressed areas when it comes to job opportunities and I have lived in Fl which has a very healthy entertainment ind.. The dancer/entertainer section of the want ads is always advertising employment with the dollar signs strung across their advert. It was always one of the more prolific sections of the want ads and for an unskilled woman it may be one of the one and only ads you read that you know you could do...over and over day after day. Imagine prostitution being thrown in the mix. And yes Cyan these jobs are only for women..I would guess that only a small percentage of the ads would ever be directed at men as well. These ARE gender based jobs...this is a very gender specific profession and the ONLY profession where a women is in fact paid more than her male counterpart.



Why does every interaction between humans need to be treated as "normal business" and of need of rules? You have not answered this...why do we need to bring the private exchange of sex between two adults under the supervision of the gov? WHY?
Well since you like the hamburger analogy so much...how come we can't buy catburgers? What is the difference between eating a cat and a cow? Could it be perhaps our own society's moral objective? Could we be legislating our own morality in the burger industry? Also you keep making mention of following standards..whose standards? what exactly are standards? Are they not morals?



It is everyone's concern how I raise my children. I think Mrs Pigpen made this point well.



How is wearing sexy clothes compare to prostituting oneself? Don't you feel there might be a huge leap between the two? Um..no I actually don't feel a women is at fault when it comes to rape..but I do feel society is. Obviously there are still strong societal beliefs about women and what they should wear and how they should act and how they should be valued and treated in accordance to. Oh wait I bet this has something to do with morals ? So which came first...the idea that women are property to be bought and sold like hamburgers or the miniskirt? And which would we opt would be the more forward thinking concept? That women can wear miniskirts and all it means is it is a nice sunny warm day...or women can be bought and sold like a hamburgers and the wearing of a miniskirt is the advertising of this product for sale?



Great be thankful that you have the luxury of choice. Because not everyone in this world does. My contention is that the choice of prostitution is being forced into consideration....ultimately only to women. This is a very gender specific topic.



Yet according to you the exchange of sex between two adults under whatever conditions they privately agree upon is in need of being addressed by the gov. Do you realize how much you contradict yourself on this subject? You say ...

and then you say...


Yet you seem to want to legislate prostitution in accordance to your own morals..you seem to feel that other's morals on the subject are wrong and yours is right and even worse that yours should be legislated, promoted and adhered to.

Sorry if this is a bit of a tangent... but go look at the demographics of poverty in this country..it is women...a single adult/caretaker household where a woman is the sole provider is where our poor live in this country. Much like the evidence we see in the Netherlands of poor, uneducated, unskilled immigrant women who account for 80% of the legal (because contrary to some's beliefs making something legal does not eliminate the idea, concept and desire for people to still commit illegal acts) prostitution.
So the Netherlands and other countries like her essentially create a second class citizen who performs the job that no one else wants to do..no one wants their wives doing, or their mothers or daughters.
If it is all just a matter of making the choice why are Dutch women not choosing to make that choice? Why are a lower socio-economic class of uneducated women needing to be imported to feed this industry? Could it be perhaps because only those who ultimately have very little choice and opportunity afforded to them would ever choose this profession?
If it was like selling hamburgers, which it is not, then I would have no problem with it. I can't imagine how luring young girls (most prostitutes start in the ind at age 15) into this kind of profession could be in any way beneficial to our society. We, like the Netherlands, would just create a second class citizen to perform this job...whether it be the poor unskilled women which we already have plenty of in this country...or else women would be imported in. What effects would this have? If you allow this kind of activity to exist and even encourage it....because legalizing is encouraging...it into the mainstream of our society..what message does this send..what does it say about women, their role in society and how society values them?
Society is defined by it's collective moralism. With out morals you have nothing to bind us with. It is our shared beliefs..and it is not dependent on religion.



And so has slavery. In fact slavery is still very much with us today..do you also feel it has no moral effects in this world...and how come nearly all of the slaves accounted for in this country are in fact in prostitution?


And no where is this thinking more predominate than prostitution. Why do we not see an equal number of women buying male or female prostitutes? Why is this such a gender specific issue? I am hardly a repressive puritanical person. I just can not understand how having gov sanctioned prostitution will change anything or improve anything.
We hear a lot about this being an act of choice but I don't agree I believe that the majority of prostitutes are prostituting themselves because they feel like they have no other choice and I feel that legalizing it would do nothing but incorporate it and further encourage the lack of choice to exist for these women. I just would like to see women become economically independent and free from men's economic desires. I would like for women to become free from making this choice.

Prostitutes bring home diseases that women in most legitimate professions do not, or at least not as much. While universal precautions against infection are used by hospital doctors and nurses, blood splashes and needlesticks still occur. Hospital doctors and nurses have health insurance, and they receive prophylactic treatment for hepatitis and other diseases borne by blood and bodily secretions.

Prostitutes do not carry this insurance. If prostitution were made legal, would the government have to prevail upon the health insurance companies to cover them, or would the insurance companies have the right to refuse them coverage as they are in an inordinately high risk category? If they are covered, how much higher a premium would the average, non-sex industry worker have to pay for "legitimized" prostitutes' right to coverage?

There is an indefinite lag time before the AIDS virus is detected in a person's blood. How many customers would be infected with the virus and pass it on before the prostitute tested HIV positive? How many of her children and significant others would contract the virus as a result of her "chosen" profession?

And this argument has nothing to do with family values or morality.

Any factual evidence to back up this statement, Paladin Elspeth?

I dunno--how many women in other professions allow men, and several men at that, to penetrate them with or without condoms while on the job? The fact that their job involves the routine exchange of body fluids would render prostitutes more susceptible to contracting and spreading sexually-transmitted diseases.

Do we really need statistical data to know that?

I'm partially in agreement with you here. There will always be prostitutes who are willing to go "bareback" in exchange for a few more dollars, but most girls---street level and high-end---emphatically refuse to perform intercourse OR oral sex without using a condom. A few more dollars versus a deathwish? HIV is just one of the many STD's that can be passed along, but a smart sexworker isn't going to risk their life for an extra $20. There's not much that can be done about the dumb and greedy ones.

I'd prefer to present you some actual statistics Paladin Elspeth to help make my case, but I'll have to do the research later. The sun's coming up and I've got to get ready to work, but I do have a few excerpts from a pair of providers discussing this issue that I'll share:

A couple of days ago I had two guys who instant messaged me about appointments.......The conversation went just fine until they asked me one thing: Would you consider BBFS if the cash was right? HELL FREAKING NO!

I have heard from several gents I deal with that there are a few local females who offering BBFS. To all of you ladies who are: GET REAL! There is no excuse for doing BBFS......You women doing this are just gross and nasty and there no known cure for AIDS the last I heard. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

There is no excuses for this type of recklessness.....Just because some providers are stupid enough to do this doesn't mean the rest of us are. I apologize for offending but its get a little tiring hearing potential clients asking if I match services with these women.

The reply:

I have had more requests for this than I care to count. More to my concern though is when the gentleman tells me something to the effect of, "well so and so did it, why won't you?". Makes me wonder how much truth is in that statement and where this man has been and also makes me want to double condom him or send him out my front door!

Another escort warned: A gentleman might tell you he can't "feel" you well enough and he would like to switch to doggy. When you turn over, watch him in the mirror to see to it that the condom is not removed behind your back and you are not inadvertently bare backing!

The women often complain about guys who try to slip the condom off or play other stupid tricks to get their rocks off with the latex. Yes, there is going to be an increased risk for sexworkers in the age of AIDS, but that risk hasn't seemed to end either the supply or the demand.

But you make you some valid and important points, Paladin Elspeth. I don't profess to have all the answers. Through a rational and calm discussion though, we may find them.

Bucket

This seems to be the main disagreement in our points of view: you say "It's still a private act of sex, even though it involves a business transaction." I say "It's still a business transaction, even though it involves sex."

You talk about all these terrible things: 15 year olds becoming prostitutes, the prostitutes slavery to their pimps, and then you argue against prostitution being regulated as a normal business. What regulated business is like that? Keeping it black market will most definitely not improve anything for these people. Who do better, the street prostitutes, or the ones in the brothels in Nevada? Strip clubs are regulated, and last I checked the strippers are over 18, and are free to quit. Sex can be just another service to be bought and sold. And this is in no way me saying that my morality should be legislated. My morality doesn't revolve around prostitution. It's not something I would want for a family member. But I accept the fact that this might be a choice for someone else. Your whole stand seems to be that the women in Europe didn't really have a choice. I think they did. Unless they are in literal bondage. But what they considered their best choice is incompatible with your morals, so you would take that choice away from them. Very nice of you. You seem to be so concerned that a woman might consider this a good option, much more than that she will actually be harmed. You seem to think that society needs to send messages about how it values women. I think people should just value people on their individual merits.

I am for personal choice and self determination. You seem to think that everything should be done for the good of society (or how you would see society). Now please explain to me how me saying "Decide for yourself if it's good or bad" is trying to enforce my morals. Or is it trying to enforce my morals when I say that a for-profit business should be treated as such, and expected to be as safe as possible for both customer and employee?

And how you raise your kids only affects everyone if they grow up and go around stabbing people, raping and stealing. If they choose to do what they want with their bodies it does not affect me.

And if you want to know why so many more women are prostitutes than men think about this: A man goes up to a strange female at a bar, politely asks if she wants to go have sex. Would she answer politely yes/no, or would she flip out on him? Now reverse the situation, with the female going up to the male doing the same thing. Hmmmm....

As for the cat burger, I think it has more to do with supply and demand than morals. Nobody wants cat burgers so nobody makes them.

Mrs. P

In my opinion behavior should not be illegalized for adults, just so somebody's children do not think its ok. You live closer to legalized prostitution than most of us. How is that not letting you raise your kids? I just have trouble believing in "minds being corrupted, parents being powerless." This is the same argument against movies, games, music. And it is not a universal truth that prostitution should be looked upon the way it is in our society. Maybe some parents do want to teach that it is a matter of CHOICE. We are not insects and we are not Borg. We don't exist for the collective.

The short answer is, living near a discrete brothel doesn't hinder my ability to raise my children at all. If the neighbor could set up such a shop next door, it would. I have the option to avoid taking my children to violent or sexually explicit movies, not buy the games, and not play that type of music. I don't have the option to stop living in society, and I don't believe anyone's right to behavioral choice extends beyond their person (and the adults who offer their consent).

No I don't think so...I think my argument is it is a private exchange between two consenting adults and however they choose to arrange it is their business...it is not a business transaction but rather a intimate exchange. I have asked you to explain why we can't just let some things in life be left in the private realm and why we need sex to be considered a "business transaction" to be brought into the open market and in need of gov involvement, interaction and legislation. I was also curious how doing all this would not alter our freedom of choice...would not legislate our morality and would not ultimately alter how women are perceived in society. You have not addressed any of this.




Exactly how is regulating the mentality that buying a woman much like one buys a hamburger going to help improve society's treatment of these women? Also exactly how does the gov ensure that all prostitution from there on will be performed legally and up to the gov. mandated standards (which are morals...you forgot to address that question too) If a woman makes the choice to willingly sell her body don't you think she should at least be afforded the right to sell it under the conditions, standards and specifications she chooses? Why should she be told by the gov(which is mostly male dominated) how and what she can use her body for and at what price and conditions she may exchange it at? Why should the market..which coincidentally in the realm of prostitution is again male dominated...again be openly and competitively dictating how she wishes to sell herself to another? Leave it as a private exchange and allow women the choice to independently decide how they choose to make this exchange.

The sale of guns is legal and there is still a huge black market for it...the sale of cigarettes again is legal and again a huge black market exists. See the thing is that people ultimately do favor choice..your right about that...but you seem to underestimate this pursual...because we often see that when choice is limited by the law..meaning legalized...people will pursue it outside the legal barriers..or we could consider the law the restriction of choice.

I had thought that many of us had already offered you info that showed that even in countries and even in this country where prostitution has been legalized the black market of prostitution is very much alive. What is your reasoning on this fact?

Women who choose to prostitute themselves should NOT be degraded by the laws and should not be punished for their choices made. They should be given the exact same status as any other woman in the eyes of the law and they should be allowed to seek law enforcement protection when they have been vitimized. The current situation is a travesty..and I have already stated that I do not support the criminalization of these women and I do wish for them to be legitimized...but not legalized. I honestly feel this would only strengthen their constraint by society's desires.






Why don't you explain to me how laws, regulations, gov. standards and compliances should NOT be done for the good of society? Maybe some of us feel that women's sexual identity is not only a for-profit thing? Perhaps this does go against our morals? Perhaps we think women and whatever sexual exchanges they choose to engage in should not be treated as such.



What a sexist remark that was. Oh I am sure that must be why soooo many women are prostitutes and not clients. Because women are unwilling to have sex freely without receiving payment for it. And I am sure all men would willingly have sex with any woman that approached and asked them for it.
Women deserve in a modern society to have their sexual freedom. Women are often not allowed the same sexual identity because of societal pressures, ideas, standards and just basic biology. It is in fact OK for a woman to enjoy and want sex and to not have to be a prostitute in order to feel this way. Perhaps you should think about that.



Is there FDA approved cat meat? Is it legal to raise, slaughter, package and then prepare cats for human consumption? I doubt it. I am sure laws on animal cruelty might play into any attempts to market that product...or I could say legislated morality.

I'm sorry... but women need to STOP talking out of both sides of their mouth.

They don't want to be seen as sexual objects... Well, except when the money's good, and they want to be on equal footing with men... Well, except again when they need to make their money underneath them (darn these exceptions!)

Oh yeah... don't forget that they want men to have respect for them.... when they're on their knees...

I see ICYNova's comments as very dogmatic and thoughtless. For one thing the women who are on their knees are not really asking for respect. There are women deserving respect and there are those who dont, just like some men ask to be respected while others are rape people and lead primarily by their sexuality. Its a bit too farfetched when one refers to the entire world ppulation of women as they.

About prostitution- it should definitely made illegal. If the question is about personal freedom, it is legal to have sex and legal to make money, but making sex into a profession is, in my views, not acceptable. Apart from the ethics of human sexual conduct, which really isnt a big deal anymore, I think that it just seems like a easy way out for many young people who are in need of money. Needless to say, this choice of career chosen at a young age, destroys the potential of that child/adolescent to do what he/she would normally do and creates a distorted social image. the cycle of misery more often than not carries onto the children of these individuals, scarring them forever.

Yes it was an inflammatory statement, but I see it true nonetheless.

Even the adamant feminists that I associate with tend to support women who are engaged in the sex trade because it "makes good money" and they see it as boistering their self-esteem because men desire them. To quote more than one "Heck, i'd do it if I had the body" (talking about stripping that time.) I just see this as a step BACKWARDS from where the women's lib movements have fought so long and hard to get womankind as a whole (turning women back into "objects" and "buisness transactions.") Moreover men should be ashamed at treating the better half of our species like sex toys, with one of their best uses being to jazz our juices for $50 an hour.

but again, that is just my opinion as always.

Isaac

(I probabaly deserve a strike or ban for my first statement, but it's late, and I do apoligize to those who were offended. Gomenasai)

Huh? Are you using this imagery of a woman on her knees to represent prostitution? Or are you suggesting that how a woman performs a private, intimate act with another should somehow dictate how she is respected outside of that act ? I am just all really confused by a lot of what you said.



ALL woman are deserving of some degree of respect and sexual identity should NOT be dictating a woman's ultimate worth in this world. If women had the same respect awarded to men in regards to their sexuality then prostitution would not be the oldest and often most profitable business for women in this world.