Illegal aliens crossing our borders especially from Mexico seems to be a major problem in the US. Millions of jobs are lost and our security is compromised.

What can we do to stem the tide?

Not to mention that a quarter of inmates in California are from Mexico! And don't forget the disease that is brought into the country unannounced.

There are four solutions that I can see. First, improve border patrol. Second, don't give drivers licenses to them. Third, deport them immediately when found. And fourth, work closer with Mexico to improve jobs and the standard of living there. If Mexico were to become a pleasant place to live with jobs, there would be less incentive to immigrate illegally.
The Cost Of Illegal Immigration In California

I agree. I would add one more. Big penalties for employers caught hiring them. They come here illegally looking for work. If there was no work fewer would risk coming from as far away as Central America.

I would also propose making it illegal to rent apartments/sell house to illegals. If they come here and they cannot get a place to live (preferably in addition to not being able to find a job), they would probably consider going back, or not come at all. Big penalties for employers hiring, big penalties for landlords renting out apartments to them.

I agree but the trick is to identify them. This is why we may need the national ID card. The harder you make it for them the more money the ID forgers will make.

If we had a good national ID system we could stop them cold.

I find it ridiculous here in the United States how all we will do to people who illegally try to come here is ship them back to where they came from. Many Mexicans find this tactic favorable because they can just keep on trying until they finally make it. Do you think a small slap in the fingers will stop them from trying again? Heck No! I would suggest first booking them, warning them and deporting them and if cought second time, putting them in prison because they broke the law - a crimal act. Then maybe they might do it the right way, the legal way.

I feel many of you are ignoring a few economic realities here...

Illegal immigration is one of the ball bearings upon which your whole system slides. If you actually managed to achieve zero immigration (at least from those pesky hombres south of the border) much of your urban service sector industries would be chronically understaffed. Zero immigration would actually hamper the 'growth' of your economy, by removing a cheap and readily available labour force.

I do agree with one point expressed though. If you really want to reduce the numbers coming in, then you have to work to improve their lot. This means undoing all of the damage done when you have arranged for various coups instigating various oppressive regimes simply because the are amenable to U.S. economic and military interests (Pinochet, anyone?) like you are sure to be in the process of doing in Iraq as we type.

You are not fooling anyone.

Please understand we are not talking about 0 immigration only legal immigration. We let hundreds of thousands into the US legally and that is fine. What we don’t need are the 10s of thousands of ILLEGAL aliens.

IMO the way to stop this is better border control. Yes it would be nice to “improve their lot” but that is the primary responsibility of the home governments and we can only do so much.

And as far as Pinochet goes - tell me would the Socialist regime have been better? Yes he was a dictator and our cold war policy favored him but Chile today is in better shape than most of the Socialist regimes of that era.

If you think that legal immigration dwarfs the illegal process I'd be curious to know where you get your facts from. According to THIS government document (page 45) America admitted 53,324 illegal immigrants from Mexico and a total of 1,063,732. (Page 11.) Of these an indeterminate number are illegal immigrants who have changed their status through various government avenues. One site I saw esitmated that 64% of immigration was of this sort, but since it was FAIR (a group which is rabidly anti-immigrant) I take it with a grain of salt. Still, there is no doubt in my mind that a sizeable percentage of legal immigrants came to the U.S. illegally. Unfortunately the government does not publish reliable information for illegal immigration RATES. However, they DO publish illegal population statistics. THIS document estimates that there were over 7 MILLION illegals living in the United States as of 2000. Now, assuming that you were to completely eliminate illegals entering the country (as you have done), what will happen to the job sectors that have depended on this population which numbers in the millions and doesn't have the rights that any replacements would claim.

I find your assertion that they could simply be pared from the economy groundless, and the idea that the illegal migration is insignificant flat out misinformed.

As for your delusions about Pinochet; I guess the "disappearing" of thousands of people are immaterial to you. Regardless, your comparison is groundless because the countries which you allude to (however failing to specifiy) were all totalitarian governments which practiced the same sort of military control that Chile did.

First of all if you look at the data you posted, a few pages down, you will see that only 217,318 legal immigrants came to the US in 2002 from Mexico. The 1,063,732 was the world.

And the 7 million figure may be correct but over what period of time? My point is not that we don’t need immigrants but what we want are LEGAL immigrants and I believe we can get all we need. If illegal immigration was stopped as it should be and we needed more workers we could raise the quotas and allow more folks in including many of the folks who sneak across the border every day. This way we know who is here rather than allowing millions of illegal aliens in this country who are essentially invisible.

The answer on how to fix this is actually rather easy. Repeal the L-1 and H-1B visa programs. Basically, these programs allow companies to speed up the visa process in order to obtain foreign workers. These workers are then labeled intracompany transferees. These workers are often paid less than American workers and they also receive little, if any, benefits. If these people are getting less benefits and making minimum wage, then what does that mean? In my eyes I see poverty. So I think that if we were to repeal these two programs, then we would be able to drop the unemployment rate, and in effect, lessen the poverty level.

Brett I don’t see what H-1B has to do with illegal immigrants and my understanding of those programs is they are intended to bring in workers when workers cannot be found in the US – typically high tech. People with special skills and education.

Illegal immigrants are taking jobs that would not be filled by these programs.

That sounds like a very expensive and potentially counter-productive plan. Putting thousands of illegal immigrants in our prisons would put a serious drain on our economy and fill up already over-flowing prisons. Now if we could work out a plan for thier home country to imprison them fine. Let them pay for it, but throwing them behind bars here is more of an expense than its worth.

I tend to agree Venom jail is expensive for us and doesn’t solve the problem. I see Mexico and the countries south doing little to help solve the problem. There is only so much we can do to influence government policy there.

I would like to see the National Guard on the border. Once it was clear folks will not be allowed to cross the flow would decrease dramatically. Electronic surveillance is at the point where it could be employed as well. But the key is you have to be committed to stopping the ceaseless flow.

I tend to favor this one, but a probable side effect is that employers will just refuse to hire anyone with black hair and brown skin for fear of accidentally hiring an illegal.



If our society wants to avoid ethnic-based descrimination when hiring, then a national ID card seems to be a must. But a national ID card for every citizen is a double-edged sword. While it may seem to be a fix for employer descrimination, in reality, it may encourage descrimination by any bureaucracy or government. There are plenty of historical examples where methods for identification are misused by governments. The most glaring example was the use of race-based identifiers on Jews by the Nazis. In the United States, Japanese-Americans were rounded up after the U.S. Census Bureau conducted a review of its census database at the request of Roosevelt, and identified every American of Japanese descent in the Western states. I wonder why the same care wasn't used to root out Americans of German descent? Aside from this one example, there's a reason why the Census Bureau keeps data on any one individual secret for 72 years, only releasing aggregate data for policy-making use. Its bad enough our names can be used against us (http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/news/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html), but to add our ethnicity, out age, our address, etc. into a central location easily accesible to anyone the gov't deems fit, is just asking for trouble IMO. A lot of stuff that concerns our lives goes on in the background, and it only comes to our attention when it directly affects us (http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/index.html). Anonymity can hide illegals from prosecution, but anonymity can also protect us from ourselves.



I have to believe permanently mobilizing the national guard has got to cost money. Who will pay? Almost every state in the Union is in serious financial difficulty. And the results of such an endeavor are far from certain. If Tony Sanchez says trying to stifle the flow of insurgents from Syria to Iraq is an impossible task, then how can we expect our National Guard to pull it off over here, when we take into account all the many more miles of border between the U.S. and Mexico than between Syria and Iraq?

Really, the only long term solution is for wages and the standard of living to rise in Mexico.

I can understand the reluctance to introduce anymore ID s to our lives but we may be forced to do this. Canada has a health ID card that is essentially the same thing and carried by all.

I am not afraid of the Nazi nightmare. If that is going to happen here no one piece of information will stop it.

Recently General Tommy Franks said that if we are hit again and have high casualties many of our freedoms are going to go away. It may be the only way to protect ourselves in an era of cheap WMD.


Yes mobilizing the guard costs money but I don’t think it need to be permanent. Sensors and fewer soldiers could be phased in as the flow drops. Remember the cost now to the border states is in the Billions/year.

Ted, what you just stated was my exact argument to you in the other thread of similar topic. You are now contradicting yourself. You have asserted that illegal immigrants are taking away US jobs, but now state that we need to make it easier for immigrants to enter the US legally. We DO need more workers and we DO need to make it easier for immigrants to enter this country legally. The reason we don't allow more immigrants into the country is due to people who argue that immigrants are stealing US jobs.
I just hope this indicates that you are opening your mind to the other side of the story and that's great.

Exactly! And what better way to increase the standard of living in Mexico, then by allowing more Mexicans into the US and reducing trade barriers. As we know, many Mexicans that are employed in the US (legally and otherwise) send some of their earnings back to their families in Mexico. Some stay here long enough to go back and live comfortably since the US dollar is worth more down there. This money alows for increased spending on foreign and domestically produced goods. This demand leads to both manufacturing jobs and service jobs in Mexico AND the US. As the Mexican economy gets better, the amount of immigration into the US will decrease; some Mexicans will actually return to Mexico. Now that there will be an increased need for cheap labor in the US once again, there will be more motivation for people of other countries to migrate to the US and hopefully the same effect can happen to their country. I'm not saying that this can happen overnight, but at least it's movement in the right direction.

At the same time, other countries must willing to work with us so that we can all profit. We can only help those that want to be helped... Or we can just blow them up and force them into capitalism as in the case of Iraq.

Well I think you are twisting my words a little. What you said was we could not do without illegal immigrants and I pointed out we have plenty of LEGAL immigrants and can get more if we need them.

During times of high unemployment we can cut down the number of legal immigrants if we like and thus save the jobs for citizens and legal immigrants. But none of this works with 10s of thousands of illegal immigrants pouring over the border every year.

It has to stop. NOT legal immigration but ILLEGAL immigration.

Do you agree?

Yes Ted, I do agree. But what you don't seem to understand is that we don't get as many immigrants as we need in this country. If there was a lack of work for cheap, immigrant labor, why would so many people be trying to come here? If someone told you how beautiful the Jungles are in Africa, would you pack up and move knowing you would not be able to find a job there?
When we have enough immigrants to fill the jobs available, Mexicans would be in as bad a situation here as in Mexico. So why risk their life to come here?

I am tired of hearing everyone always complaining about illegal immigrants taking good American jobs. I live on a border town and I have all my life. My father is a U.S. Border Patrol agent. Through my experience, loosing jobs to illegal aliens is not our main problem. I have never seen a line of Americans trying to get a job picking lettuce, but if you go to any one of our port of entries at around 4 a.m. you'll see a line of people with LEGAL WORK VISA'S who come across the border every morning for barely minimum wage. Our biggest problems with illegal aliens are the benifits they recieve from our government while they are here, i.e. welfare, food stamps and cheap housing. The "jobs" argument is ridiculous. The only jobs that illegal aliens are "stealing" are the jobs Americans don't want to do in the first place.

That is absolutely untrue. We can have all the immigrants we want here. We have quotas that limit immigration. And its clear that if we cut off the illegal immigration all the folks that were sneaking into this country would be available to come in legally.

Ted, we have quotas because too many Americans don't want more immigrants in this country, it has nothing to do with a lack of demand for them.
And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by, "And its clear that if we cut off the illegal immigration all the folks that were sneaking into this country would be available to come in legally". I assume you are trying to say that less illegal immigrants would increase the demand for cheap labor, thus causing the US to increase it's quota on legal immigrants. Is that right? As I stated before, people sneak into this country BECAUSE the quotas are there in the first place. There already is a demand for more cheap labor, that's why people keep sneaking in here. And if there is a demand for cheap labor, why isn't the US increasing the quota. because to many conservatives believe that foreigners are taking our jobs. That is the real issue at hand.

No I think we have quotas because if we didn’t we would be swamped with immigrants. The bottom line is we have no trouble getting immigrants of any kind. If you are implying that we have illegals because citizens don’t want more legal immigrants I disagree strongly. If this was the case the industries that needed the workers would be the first to scream for bigger quotas. Show me where this is happening outside of high technology.

Hell many of our parents and grandparents were immigrants.

What I find odd is the idea that anyone would support criminal behavior rather than deal legally with a situation. What is the benefit in doing that. I doubt you are unwilling to pay a little more for your lettuce.

Immigration reform...probably one of our Gov's greatest domestic failures of current history.

Border control..uhh we did this already...men were doubled, walls were built, tech was increased and what has it done? Like the many immigration reforms we have implemented it is a failure , it apparently will always fail unless we are willing to live in some kind of police state, and it has has opposite effects from what was desired. We have an increase in deaths from those attempting more dangerous crossings and we have had a massive increase in the human smuggling trade which I have read on some accounts is suppose to be more lucrative than drug smuggling.

Not to mention...immigration, legal or illegal is just the new word for human migration...something humans have done for centuries. Most Americans in this country are so far removed from any of the basic migrating drives that they are completely unwilling to help support and provide our agriculture system. Which is extremely migrant dependent. How can you have one of the WORLD'S largest migrant systems in existence (not to mention one of the world's largest free market) and not attract the migrant worker how exactly does that happen?

Also it is said with the increase of border control those who would have migrated into the US for seasonal work and then migrate back out to spend time at home no longer do...the risk is too great to attempt reentry next season into the US so they just stay here.

A country that is greatly in need of, depends on and is rewarded with migrant labor. A country, need I remind you, is an open market economy, and yet we see it fit for the Gov. to regulate, dictate and control what access our industry has to labor. It is said that only 40,000 immigrants enter our country legally for farm work, compare that to the estimated 1.6 million farm workers in America. How many of those 1.6 million do you think is illegal and why if we have a agriculture ind. that is in need of millions of workers does our gov only allow a mere 40,000 in?

Stronger penalties, restrictions on employers who hire illegals. Why? Why is it the employer's responsibility? Why would you want to add more regulations, restrictions and penalties to those who provide jobs in this country? How does this fit into the free market economy we pride ourselves on?

Housing restrictions..ohhh lovely that one...as if the employers were not being restricted and threatened enough let's go for the landlords of America too! I mean why bother with all this safe, inviting, and nurturing business climate nonsense! I have actually lived in a country with such restrictions..it is a horrible horrible concept and plays out even worse in reality. People just end up having housing coyotes if you will and it is just one more thing to indenture those poor souls with..just one more tool for the appetite of cheap labor to use to keep that labor even cheaper. Now they can use free housing as a lure and a tool of captivity.

Immediate deportation..again I guess I have to remind those that when you find someone that you believe is living and working illegally in the US..the gov actually must investigate, prove and make sure that the right and fair judgement is being placed on this individual. Again..this little "luxury" we afford people in the eyes of our system is one of the important factors (much like our open/free market) that defines our country.

It amazes me that many who feel they must call for these actions in order to "save" America are so willing to ignore many of the very basic concepts that this country stands for and exemplifies.

Yes Ted, if we raised our quotas and made it easier for immigrants to enter the US legally, there would be an increase of immigrants in the US. That is because there is a demand for more immigrants. The law of supply and demand pertains to workers in that if there is no demand for work, there won't be any workers. Why would Mexicans come into this country if there are not enough jobs for them? Maybe it's for the MTV? If so many Mexicans came into this country that there were no jobs left (and that might happen at first), they will realize that they are in just as bad a situation here as they are there. So more than likely, they will go back to Mexico; at least there everyone speaks Spanish and their family is there.
Like I said in another post, giving Mexicans jobs here will help stimulate the Mexican economy (as well as ours) which will eventually lead to a higher demand for work in Mexico.
Cheaper labor in the US also leads to a less expensive end-product. This alows lower income families to be able to buy and enjoy things that they couldn't previously.

I understand demand and I understand that migrants are needed but there has to be a way to deal with this legally and not just throw up our hands and say its ok to allow thousands of people to cross our borders illegally. A migrant worker program has been suggested and may be a good idea. We know the people and the farms get the workers

Also realize that migrant work is only a fraction of the work done by illegal aliens. They do everything from factory to construction work and I don’t feel we need to give these jobs to illegal aliens. The idea that there are no legal aliens, who waited there turn to get into this country legally, or citizens to do these jobs is ridiculous.

We've never done it properly. If we can invade and destroy the world's third largest army in a month and take over a country on the other side of the globe, we can seal our borders if we really wanted to. Politicians, dems and republicans, don't want to tackle the issue.



Millions of illegal aliens already in the US could be doing much of this work already. And aren't. Fact is illegals don't come here to do farm work long term. They are migrating across the nation and into epicenters of cities coast to coast. They don't come here with dreams of picking veggies for $3 an hour for a lifetime.



Does this really need to be answered?



There is a difference between controlling and monitoring ILLEGAL immigration and the topic of immigration period. Few people are really calling for a halt to ALL immigration. I certainly don't favor that notion. Don't confuse the two.

John Leo brought up an interesting point to this in a commentary he wrote. In it he wrote, Cruz Bustamante was asked by a reporter whether he sees any difference between legals and illegals. He replied: "Have you been out to the fields? I have. I grew up out there." Good point. If I'm ever asked whether breaking into a house is different from walking in the front door as a guest, I intend to say: "Have you ever been out to the Jersey suburbs? I grew up out there."

I know it's an anecdotal story but I think he hits it on the mark.

Since when is it our responsibility to do that? Unless the economic conditions in Mexico EQUAL or EXCEED the USA, there isn't a chance tossing out a few thousand jobs or more is going to do anything. Do you forsee Mexico's economy and living conditions rivaling ours?



Not necessarily. You paying the $3 it cost to make those Jordan Nike shoes where you live cause they don't come that cheap where I live. How about those designer jeans made overseas for $4 that sell here for $50? Fact of the matter is, all cheap labor does is allow companies to improve their profits. ILLEGAL labor even more so. I have no problem with companies sourcing inexpensive labor here or overseas for that matter to improve profits, so long as it's done legally.

Just had to throw this one in.... us folks in Cali were this close to driving side by side with illeagals WITH drivers licences.

I am not sure why everyone connects illegal immigration with big-name corporations. The main people who make money off these people are farmers, those who get subsidized payments by the government anyway.

The jobs being taken away are from foreigners, but in foreign markets. Ever had a problem with your T-Mobile phone? Don't be surprised if your Customer Service representative has a slight accent, because T-Mobile has contracted out many tech support jobs to India, where the one requirement is to speak as American as possible. Oh, and also work late night jobs to coincide with the hours Americans are awake.

Immigrants have been blamed for job losses since the early 1900s, but the fact of the matter is they don't create a dent. Those corporations who want cheaper labor centralize in other places. Hey who knows? They may want you to displace anger on illegals to prevent from seeing the real picture.

Sorry I completely disagree with you. I can not foresee how America can completely and as you put it properly seal her borders without drastically altering the climate of her society.
It is just what happens when you have a free and open society, when you allow people to move about freely and openly some take advantage of it. While MOST enjoy and fully profit from this freedom.



Well that is why I asked it. You don't have to answer it...but it would help foster the debate.
My argument is not that employers should not have to follow the law...I just am arguing that we need to keep the laws, guidelines and regulations down to a minimum in order to still be able to have a open and free market system. The labor laws are already ridiculously complicated and small businesses FEAR them...that is not a good thing. Requiring employers to ask for and keep records of working visas etc. fine whatever...but then require that they ensure their validity..er no..why is it the employer's concern to be dabbling in border control/law enforcement? And if they do not properly identify their employees' work papers as being legit they are fined? Wrong again. Does the Fed gov. hold retail shops etc responsible for taking couterfeit money? The current law does not operate as such...as long as the employer asked for the papers, was given the papers and believed them to be true he is abiding the law...you must knowingly hire an illegal. And even with that we felt it necessary to write in anti-descrimination guidelines into the law. So imagine if the law was altered or like people like to wrongly use the word...reformed...in order to place more responsibility on the employers of America. Again if you are so concerned about American's jobs ...why do you not care about these American's jobs? Why do we have to focus on the construction workers, the farm labourers and the many other unskilled labor as if they are the only factor in this issue. What about the small business owner, or manufacturer, or the farmer or builder? Why is their livelihood of no concern to you? Isn't it just a smidge harder to come by an individual with the investment capability, entrepreneurialism, tenacity and ability to run their own company/business than it is to find a unskilled laborer?

No matter how you cut it open borders like ours to the south are a grave security risk and as far as the laws are concerned lets change it if we don’t intend to enforce it rigorously. This issue has been a political football for years with Democrats coming down on the side of ignoring the problem. This may be because part of their base, the labor unions, would like to have an keep the workers.

I have no problem with letting in legally ALL the workers we need but I do have a problem with ignoring the laws and allowing 10s of thousands of illegal immigrants to cross our borders. NO other country in the world does this. Why do we?

As far as punishing business we can use our heads, as I believe we do, and save the worst punishment for those companies that have large numbers of illegal workers. Employers should not be held responsible for verifying every document but neither can they hire workers that are totally undocumented.

I never said we should "throw up our hands and say its ok to allow thousands of people to cross our borders illegally". We need to increase our quota for immigrants and make it much easier for them to come in legally.


Who is saying that there are no legal aliens? Just because SOME are able doesn't mean that ANYONE can. It's not like anyone can just fill out a form and come in.


Canda does. We don't.

There is no reason to increase quotas until we decide to seal the borders.


Canada actually advertises for skilled workers all over the world and their borders may not be heavily guarded but you cannot work or get medical care in Canada (much less go to school) if you are an illegal alien.

When is it our responsibility to improve the economic conditions of a foreign country? Bush seems to think Iraq needed some help. First off, I think your questions is very selfish. If we are able to help others, why shouldn't we? Besides being the right thing to do, improved economic conditions in Mexico means more jobs in Mexico, which means less reasons for Mexicans to want to sneak into America.
Why do you think Mexico's economic condition would have to equal or exceed ours for Mexicans to want to stay in Mexico? I don't know too many countries whos economic conditions meet or exceed ours, and yet the whole world isn't knocking on our door. I believe increased Mexican labor in the US and increased free trade between Mexico and US will improve the economic situation in both the US and Mexico.


While cheaper labor DOES allow increased profits (why be in business if you can't increase profits?), it also allows for money to be utilized on other expenses. Unless you don't watch TV, read magazines, or live in the USA, it's kind of hard to miss the billions of dollars Nike spends on advertising. So now we have less people standing all day on a shoe assembly line and more people designing ads, making commercials, renting out cars and hotels, etc. I guess you are against this move towards increased quality of life in the USA.

We do give foreign aid to Mexico and Mexican workers in this country send back a lot more. I have no problem with this as long as the workers are legal and pay taxes here as well.

ASSOCIATED PRESS
More than 40 percent of adult Hispanic immigrants in the United States regularly send money to relatives in their native countries, a flow of funds totaling nearly $30 billion this year, a study has found.
That money goes for all sorts of expenses — food and shelter, education, savings and investments. The amount far exceeds the total U.S. foreign aid flowing to all nations — $17.2 billion this fiscal year.

The current policy doesn't work, I believe any better for the strengthening or relaxing of immigration laws will agree to that. I don't see strengthening immigration laws as being a realistic answer. You can't build a wall and string the entire southern border with barbed wire. The man hours and pure cost of such an operation would bankrupt the country. What should we do? Make it easier to become a citizen. Now I know, people say they will take all of our jobs. For one, the U.S. would be experiencing negative population growth if it wasn't for immigrants. We would be having problems like Germany and other European nations who can't find enough workers to replace the aged who are becoming a financial burden. By slapping immigrants on the back and setting them up as citizens, we have a larger base of taxpayers paying into the system to keep the baby boomers on the golf courses in plaid pants I live in an area that has experienced a massive influx of hispanics. They work at meatpacking plants and other facilities that quite frankly, many people(myself included) would never get caught dead working at. They clean hotel rooms, work construction, as well as do other jobs that the rest of us feel are "demeaning" By streamlining the system and helping them become citizens, we have a greater number of taxpayers and more people to educate regarding our government and how it works. I believe that it is great that people want to be hear. More power to them and for those who want a job as part of a boning crew on the kill floor. It's about time someone worked it!

I am not sure what you mean by the altering of the climate but the idea that we cannot seal our borders isn't even arguable to me. It's absolutely possible without a doubt. It just isn't probable because of politics. We do live in a free society but it's not open. There is legal procedure to follow to come into this society lawfully. We have rules for a reason.



I'm not for generating all sorts of new laws either but labor laws aren't THAT complicated...as it relates to employment of legal versus illegal aliens. I employ over 50 people in 2 states in my small business. And I own two other businesses as well that have only a few employees each. It's really not that big a deal. I don't want a lot of new laws or my Uncle Sam getting into my business either anymore than he is but companies that purposefully break the law need to be held accountable.



Employers are not responsible for illegal aliens in the US. Illegal aliens are directly responsible for their illegal presence here. Businesses need to follow procedure, but not be policeman themselves. I think we agree on that. I think perhaps employers in "high risk" markets or industries might benefit from stricter monitoring or training on controlling the issue maybe but the solution is not to penalize legitimate businesses. We do need to penalize and hold accountable those that disregard the law though. Again, I'm all for nailing those guys.



I never was concerned about illegal aliens stealing jobs. Or legal aliens for that matter. I support legal immigration. I am against illegal immigration. Since about 30 of the 50 employees I employ are pretty much unskilled labor, perhaps you might see their livelihood is of concern to me.



I probably misunderstood you originally. I think after reading your amplified response we are pretty much in agreement on that if you mean what I think you mean. In the final analysis, I mean to say that companies shouldn't be penalized for taking the required steps to verify legal work status. If someone has a fake SS card and license etc...companies can't be held responsible for that. However, if a company knowingly disregards its responsibilities then I mean for them to be held accountable. Agreed? I don't think companies should be the main gatekeeper or bottleneck to solving this issue. There are other more plausible ways to stem the tide.

I agree. I'm interested in taking care of our country first. Mexico's problems are their problems. Not ours. Shame on me. I have this crazy idea in my head we have enough problems at home to work on first.



We should sometimes when it's in our interest to do so. But Mexico is doing little if anything to cooperate. They encourage illegal immigration. You should research how Mexico protects it borders against infiltration from their South from the Central American countries. They simply don't tolerate it. You don't see a disconnect there? As far as your plan for improved economic conditions I'd have to see more detail to comment on it. Right now it sounds like a dream.



Why do people migrate to somewhere else? Because it's better there. How many Americans do you know migrate annually to Mexico for the rest of their lives in search of a better quality of life, work, etc? If it's not better, they won't come. Pretty simple. Numerous illegals from countries like Canada, France, Israel, are part of illegal immigration too and many of those countries have much stronger economies and better living conditions than Mexico. The slight improvements you speak of will have little if any measurable impact on dissuading illegal immigration.



You suggested that it results in lower retail prices that poor families would benefit from and improve their purchasing power. I merely pointed out not necessarily. I also already said I have no problem with cheap labor. So long as it's LEGAL cheap labor. Taking advantage of some poor mexican immigrant by paying him a buck below minimum wage and tossing him in substandard safe working conditions isn't exactly my idea of doing the right thing. Examine at the end of the third or fourth quarter in 2004 the companies that now have shifted thousands of jobs to India in the tech and service industries. Come back and show me all the companies that compared to right now, will be drastically slashing their end user retail or service prices to help the poor of America be more able to consume. I have no problem with it at all. That's capitalism to me and competition. Just let's not pretend this is somehow going to benefit the end consumer.



So you are saying that Nike should begin using illegal immigrant workers, pay them a substandard wage, be free of OSHA and other safety regulations, etc. to bolster profits so they can have more disposable income to therefore create ancilliary jobs here in the US? What are you saying about illegal immigration as it relates to NIKE? You are for it? I'm confused can you clarify?

Just wanted to say a few words. If we do not do anything about illegal immigration, then our culture and language will deteriorate because the illegals from Mexico come here to stay and they come in such big numbers that they see no need to assimilate into our culture, they are creating their own communities for example El Cenizo in Texas which is now officially all Spanish only. We all ignored it back then but there will be more to follow. Many(but not all) Mexicans also never throw out their loyalty to Mexico and I know this because I had a good friend in Alaska who was from Arizona and he lived near the border and saw the truth, I wouldn't believe him to be a liar. But now to the most important reason why I do not like illegal immigration. Has anyone ever thought about our wildlands? I am a man who loves to be close to nature, enjoy unspoiled beauty and spend countless hours in the woods, that is the reason why I tried to live in Alaska for a year, I wanted to get away from what had happened here in the lower 48, destruction of wilderness because people need housing. I saw my county in New York get eaten away by people. Our population here in the United States is nearing 300 million and that is a heck of a lot. I now live in Montana and it makes me very upset to think that maybe in 10 years I will not be able to look at this same valley the way I do now. I am afraid of change, even though change is something that never can be stopped. Immigration, legal and illegal adds a lot of people into our total population and that can't be helpful in saving our wildlands. Me and my wife and my family are all immigrants from Finland, so I am not saying that immigration should be stopped. My whole family except for my stepfather learned English and wanted to become Americans ever since we moved here. I am an American Citizen now, I fly the American Flag and I speak English at home with my wife who is now going through the process of getting her green card. I have lived in here 7 years and I can say that I am proud to be an American as long as I have a place here where I can enjoy unspoiled nature, miles and miles of wilderness where I can walk and clear my thoughts. I can only live one day at a time and wait and see what will happen to my cute quiet little valley here in Montana. Just recently some Mexicans moved in there who had lived in the United States for 15 years and they spoke very poor English and it makes me wonder how they can live here for so long and not know how to speak our language and they told me because they didn't have to learn, you could get by without it in California. Ok well I seem to be jumping between two issues here all the time. I am not saying that Mexicans will overpopulate my valley, anyone can move in there and that's what I am afraid of. I do not hate any race or any culture, but I believe that when you move into the United States you should respect it enough to become an American and learn our ways and our language because I strongly believe that it is for the better if we keep one language in this country which will and has united us before. I don't want our situation to be as fragile as Quebec in Canada who wanted to secede from Canada partly because majority there spoke French. Thanks for reading my comments and to all Americans (Yes even you who are going through the process of getting your citizenship), I love you all. Thank you for making America great! Kiitos (as you would say in Finnish).

Again I have no problem with immigrant’s just illegal ones and you are wrong when you say we cannot seal off the border. The technology to do so electronically has been around since Vietnam. All we need is the political will.


The jobs they take can be given to citizens and legal aliens. One way to stop the illegals is institute a real personal ID card. Canada has one for their healthcare system so it CAN be done.

The problem is we do not have the political will. Most Democrats and some Republicans seem to be not interested in getting the job done.

So we will have to wait until a terrorist strolls across the wide open borders and kills hundreds or thousands of Americans. Then folks will say “why didn’t we seal the border sooner”.

Just a brief aside, but this is not true. I suggest you improve your research methods.

For this to happen, there must be an assumption that American comanies would want legal employees. The fact is, many American businesses love illegals. They hold down prices and allow the rest of us to buy cheaper goods. A report was issued today and you might find it very interesting to read. It's from the Omaha World-Herlad and details a litany of abuses. Most specifically, how employers helped illegals falsify social security numbers and how the IRS is undermanned for the cause. Once again, my original assertion is proved correct. While we agree that the action is illegal, we don't mind them doing our dirty work that we ourselves won't do. If you want American companies to hire American workers, thats fine-you will have to expand the regulatory power of the government to achieve such ends. Until you do so, all efforts will be futile. Especially since only big government can keep big business in line.


My solution? Grant amnesty to all of them, have them take an oath, offer english classes, and give them citizenship so "big business" has to pay them a minimum wage and their fair share of taxes. It's the only way to hold business accountable and to keep them from undermining the rest of the workforce.



http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg...a421c24c157dce5

I think we need to add criminal penalties to the "fines” and watch what happens when we send the crooked company execs to jail.

Any “company” that can get away with 27 people using the same SS# should be fined millions. And if only 69 employers are reporting 17,000 identical SS# s why can’t we drag them into court. I don’t buy the “we don’t have the staff” nonsense. It is pure incompetence or they are being paid off.





We can also improve our identity system and guard the border better.

I have no clue what you mean by give them “all” amnesty. We could do that but that would only encourage millions MORE to cross the border. We get thousands a week. What do we do with them? Grant a continuous “amnesty”.

Come on lets get serious. Either we want a secure border or we don’t. This is not rocket science.

The border may be porous, but it isn't insecure, I would argue that there is a discernable difference. The statement that we can either secure it or not reminds me of the old prohibtion line of "we can ban it or not" We know where that lead us to historically. I see efforts to limit immigration to be for the most part, against the grain. Rather than working with these people and trying to smoothly integrate them into American society, we try and make it hard for them-I would argue that race and language have a larger part in this than most would admit, but that is for another topic of conversation. Current "anti-immigration" laws and proposals are inimical to what this country stands for and to any sound resolution of this problem. We have been beating our fists into the wall on this one trying to stop them. It's time that we looked for a "third way" on this issue, and not just a prohibitionist line that is based no on understanding, but rather, animadversion. Yes, these people are breaking the law. At the same time, the law is not working and perhaps need some changing.

Why don't you just legalise all the illegal immigrants?

Then you don't have to spend money trying to keep em out, or trying to track em down.

Its not like you're running out of room in the US or anything - legalise the immigrants and add them to your economy.

Most illegal immigrants are just people trying to make a better life for themselves. Why not allow them that opportunity rather than treat them like criminals?

Excessive immigration/population growth is a huge strain on the resources, economy, and health of any nation. As such, quotas are put into place for a purpose, one of which is to modulate the amount of growth. People who break the law and enter the country illegally, rather than through the proper channels, should be treated as criminals. It is a crime against the hosting country and it is a crime against those people who immigrated legally.

Hey deerjerkydave...

Care to explain and provide examples of exactly where these legal channels are for the poor low-skilled mexicans to follow in order to enter this country? They are hard to find...aren't they?

To re-quote myself from a prior post in this thread...


It is said over half of our 1.6 million farm laborers are migrant workers..or what others call illegal immigrants.

So there is no legal supply of this labor in a supply and demand economy ..what else is suppose to happen here?


Excessive growth in the need for unskilled labor, excessive growth of the avg American's educational level, excessive growth of the nation's age of population (meaning retirees) excessive growth of the benefits we offer for social security and a labor shortage is NOT a healthy thing for our nation either.