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Billy Jean
QUOTE
BIG PINEY, Wyo. -- A Wyoming teenager has enlisted the help of the American Civil Liberties Union in fighting a same-sex date ban at her high school.

http://www.newsnet5.com/education/2662277/detail.html

Is this ban a violation of students' constitutional rights to freedom of expression and equal treatment?
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amf
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Nov 25 2003, 04:31 PM)
Is this ban a violation of students' constitutional rights to freedom of expression and equal treatment?

Ahh, Wyoming. The Alabama of the West.

Of course it's a violation of their rights.

The only real question is whether the school administrators will back down before the lawsuit is filed or after.
Amlord
My view: the school administration has the right to make whatever rules it chooses.

You, as a voter, have the right to vote them out.

There is no Constitutional right to dating, either homosexual or heterosexual.

I wonder why this story is from a Cleveland channel, and not one in Wyoming...
Billy Jean
I don't know, I got it from http://www.fark.com/ blush.gif I love that name...Fark! w00t.gif

Anyway...

But we're talking about a high school dance, it's not like they allow the students to make out and be lewd. I don't understand how 2 girls, 2 STRAIGHT girls going to the dance together should be barred? huh.gif
Amlord
Since they were straight, they were obviously not discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation (which is not a Constitutionally protected class...)

The ACLU and whoever else is free to lobby the school to change its rules, but this is not a Constitutional issue.
Paladin Elspeth
This is interesting.

I am assuming that the girls would not have been kept out of the dance if they had walked in separately from one another.

Were they acting like a couple (arm in arm, holding hands, whatever) when they were walking in? How does the school handle heterosexual displays of affection?

It seems to me that if school officials really don't want that kind of behavior to prevail, they would have let this demonstration die a quiet death. This is obviously a set-up, and perhaps a school official was complicit in initiating this challenge.

How close was this occurrence to the situation where two high school girls, on assignment to do a non-conforming thing, stood up on a table, yelled to get attention, and then kissed each other on the mouth? It sounds like that action inspired this one.
Mrs. Pigpen
The fact that sheriff's deputies kept the couple out, at the request of the school, leads me to believe there is a lot more to this case than the article explains.
Back when I was in HS, girls often went to homecomings and proms in groups of four or five. I don't see an appreciable difference between a group of four girls and a couple. Are the students required to have a date to begin with...and that date MUST be a member of the opposite sex? With Johnny law waiting to make sure at the door? Something sounds a bit strange about this. I've known plenty of people to attend homecoming dances solo as well.
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BlitzTrooper03
My view is that since the school is a government and not private institution, it has absolutely no right to ban it.

It is a violation of the seperation between church and state.
Abs like Jesus
CNN had a bit more to the story, adding that the ACLU cited a 1980 federal court ruling from Rhode Island:
QUOTE
The decision handed down in Frick v. Lynch found that students who bring same-sex dates to school dances are not only protected by the Constitution but that schools must take steps to ensure their safety when they attend the dances.

While I'd like to see the school policy supposedly barring same-sex dates to school dances, the information available so far leads me to believe that both the girls and the ACLU have a case. As a public school financed by tax payers via the government the school has no right to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. While the girls in question may have been decidedly heterosexual, the references to the rule in question suggest that the school has a policy exclusively prohibiting homosexuals.

QUOTE(Amlord @ Nov 25 2003 @ 04:40 PM)
My view: the school administration has the right to make whatever rules it chooses.

There is a limit as to what rules school administrations have a say in. Just as they cannot elect to segregate among black and white students, they cannot similarly segregate on the basis of prejudice against sexual orientation. They have no more right to ban same-sex couples to a dance than they do specific ethnic or interracial couples.
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(Abs like Jesus @ Nov 26 2003, 01:40 AM)
CNN had a bit more to the story, adding that the ACLU cited a 1980 federal court ruling from Rhode Island:
QUOTE
The decision handed down in Frick v. Lynch found that students who bring same-sex dates to school dances are not only protected by the Constitution but that schools must take steps to ensure their safety when they attend the dances.

While I'd like to see the school policy supposedly barring same-sex dates to school dances, the information available so far leads me to believe that both the girls and the ACLU have a case. As a public school financed by tax payers via the government the school has no right to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. While the girls in question may have been decidedly heterosexual, the references to the rule in question suggest that the school has a policy exclusively prohibiting homosexuals.

Upon reading that, I can actually see why they would want to discourage same-sex couples. They are required to take direct measures to protect them. If they are required to have extra personnel present to babysit those individuals, and extra-liable if something happens to one of them, the school is understandably hesitant to permit it.
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Billy Jean
Is there evidence that these girls had been harassed beyond the average high school antics or a history of gay bashing in the school? What would give the administration concern that their safety was being jeapordized? huh.gif
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(Billy Jean @ Nov 26 2003, 08:23 AM)
Is there evidence that these girls had been harassed beyond the average high school antics or a history of gay bashing in the school?  What would give the administration concern that their safety was being jeapordized? huh.gif

According to the CNN article Abs linked, it is simply standard protocol for same-sex couples...nothing specific to those girls. The court ruling required special measures to ensure the protection of such couples.
Billy Jean
Ok, but why couldn't they have just had the deputies inside the auditorium and allow them to participate? Their presence would most likely discourage anything bad from happening. ermm.gif

QUOTE
The court ruling required special measures to ensure the protection of such couples.
Or possibly FROM. dry.gif hmmm.gif
Abs like Jesus
The ACLU doesn't have much more than what has already been provided. Their coverage mentions that the girls in question had to list their dates prior to the dance, possibly explaining the police presence upon their arrival.

They also provide a link to the Fricke v. Lynch case they cite when declaring the school's actions illegal.

My understanding is that a school must take action to ensure the safety of all students regardless of sexual orientation, lest they be held accountable for any harm to any of their students. Prohibiting same-sex couples because school officials don't want to risk having to protect two students from harassment isn't right. And from what I'm reading it isn't legal either.

From the Fricke v. Lynch ruling:
QUOTE
The present case is so difficult because the Court is keenly sensitive to the testimony regarding the concerns of a possible disturbance, and of physical harm to Aaron or Paul. However, I am convinced that meaningful security measures are possible, and the first amendment requires that such steps be taken to protect rather than to stifle free expression. [**19] Some may feel that Aaron's attendance at the reception and the message he will thereby convey is trivial compared to other social debates, but to engage in this kind of a weighing in process is to make the content-based evaluation forbidden by the first amendment.

As to the other concern raised by Tinker, some people might say that Aaron Fricke's conduct would infringe the rights of the other students, and is thus unprotected by Tinker. This view is misguided, however. Aaron's conduct is quiet and peaceful; it demands no response from others and in a crowd of some five hundred people can be easily ignored. Any disturbance that might interfere with the rights of others would be caused by those students who resort to violence, not by Aaron and his companion, who do not want a fight.
Emphasis added
Amlord
From the CNN article:
QUOTE
A Sadie Hawkins event scheduled for Friday night was called off after school officials said there could be no dances in the district, according to Blair.


Oh good, she succeeded in getting ALL dances cancelled. Nice work. The rules requiring extra protection for same sex couples is simply too burdensome. So they banned them. When someone challenged the ban, all dances were cancelled.
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EDIT to reply to Abs:
QUOTE
However, I am convinced that meaningful security measures are possible, and the first amendment requires that such steps be taken to protect rather than to stifle free expression

The first Amendment requires us to physically protect people? Where does that come from? wacko.gif
Billy Jean
I think that's wrong too. The other students shouldn't be punished or caught in the middle of this. ermm.gif That will only bring resentment towards this girl. sad.gif
Abs like Jesus
QUOTE(Amlord @ Nov 26 2003 @ 11:15 AM)
Oh good, she succeeded in getting ALL dances cancelled. Nice work. The rules requiring extra protection for same sex couples is simply too burdensome. So they banned them. When someone challenged the ban, all dances were cancelled.

So, let me get this straight. Because the school couldn't abide by the law and grant equal rights and protection to straight students challenging an unconstitutional rule, the students seeking justice should shoulder the blame for future dances being cancelled?

By this logic I suppose Rosa Parks should have completely shut down the public transportation system. Heaven forbid prejudice and discrimination be exposed! dry.gif
Billy Jean
But Abs, these students don't make the law or the policies, unlike people that are of voting age that should have stood up against discrimination and pressured they're politicians into banning segregation. unsure.gif
Amlord
Let's look at the Fricke case:
From the ACLU site
QUOTE
Two days of testimony [**2] have revealed the following facts. The senior reception at Cumberland High School is a formal dinner-dance [*383] sponsored and run by the senior class. It is held shortly before graduation but is not a part of the graduation ceremonies. This year the students have decided to hold the dance at the Pleasant Valley Country Club in Sutton, Massachusetts on Friday, May 30. All seniors except those on suspension are eligible to attend the dance; no one is required to go. All students who attend must bring an escort, although their dates need not be seniors or even Cumberland High School students. Each student is asked the name of his date at the time he buys the tickets.

The principal testified that school dances are chaperoned by him, two assistant principals, and one or two class advisers. They are sometimes joined by other teachers who volunteer to help chaperone; such teachers are not paid. Often these teachers will drop in for part of the dance. Additionally, police officers are on duty at the dance. Usually two officers attend; last year three plainclothes officers were at the junior prom.

The seeds of the present conflict were planted a year ago when Paul Guilbert, [**3] then a junior at Cumberland High School, sought permission to bring a male escort to the junior prom. The principal, Richard Lynch (the defendant here), denied the request, fearing that student reaction could lead to a disruption at the dance and possibly to physical harm to Guilbert. The request and its denial were widely publicized and led to widespread community and student reaction adverse to Paul. Some students taunted and spit at him, and once someone slapped him; in response, principal Lynch arranged an escort system, in which Lynch or an assistant principal accompanied Paul as he went from one class to the next. No other incidents or violence occurred. Paul did not attend the prom. At that time Aaron Fricke (plaintiff here) was a friend of Paul's and supported his position regarding the dance.

This year, during or after an assembly in April in which senior class events were discussed, Aaron Fricke, a senior at Cumberland High School, decided that he wanted to attend the senior reception with a male companion. Aaron considers himself a homosexual, and has never dated girls, although he does socialize with female friends. He has never taken a girl to a school dance. [**4] Until this April, he had not "come out of the closet" by publicly acknowledging his sexual orientation.

Aaron asked principal Lynch for permission to bring a male escort, which Lynch denied. A week later (during vacation), Aaron asked Paul Guilbert who now lives in New York to be his escort (if allowed), and Paul accepted. Aaron met again with Lynch, at which time they discussed Aaron's commitment to homosexuality; Aaron indicated that although it was possible he might someday be bisexual, at the present he is exclusively homosexual and could not conscientiously date girls. Lynch gave Aaron written reasons for his action; n2 his [*384] prime concern was the fear that a disruption would occur and Aaron or, especially, Paul would be hurt. He indicated in court that he would allow Aaron to bring a male escort if there were no threat of violence.

The principal originally banned this because he had to provide protection for the boy not at the dance, but for the rest of the school year in school. Here comes another boy who then invites the guy from the first case (who is out of state at the time) to the dance. The principal is clearly trying to protect this boy, not only at the dance, but at school as well.

There was a prior history here of threats against the kid. That is why the policy was in place. It wasn't about extra security at the dance, it was about extra security for the rest of the school year.

Again, from that Fricke case and the principal's reasoning:
QUOTE
Since the dance is being held out of state and this is a function of the students of Cumberland High School, the School Department is powerless to insure protection in Sutton, Massachusetts. That protection would be required of property as well as persons and would expose all concerned to liability for harm which might occur;


Now that was the original case. We don't know all the details of this case, but they are probably similar.
Billy Jean
QUOTE
All seniors except those on suspension are eligible to attend the dance; no one is required to go. All students who attend must bring an escort, although their dates need not be seniors or even Cumberland High School students. Each student is asked the name of his date at the time he buys the tickets.


That right there says to me that if you meet those requirements that you can bring who ever you want. End of story. If the school is having that much of a problem with gay bashing and abuse of another student, those students perpetrating the act should be the ones punished and suspended and not allowed to go to the dance. dry.gif
Abs like Jesus
Freedom of expression is protected by the First Amendment, Amlord. Whether that means the school refrain from making rules to the contrary or provide an atmosphere conducive to free expression, the school has an obligation to protect the freedom of speech rather than to stifle it as they did with both the policy and the deputies.

Getting back to it "being too burdensome" to provide extra protection, maybe this is just me, but I haven't read anything that suggests the school be required to provide extra protection. The CNN article said only that the school "must take steps to ensure their safety." It says nothing as to whether those steps are in addition to the steps a school already takes in chaperoning an event for the protection of the students. The ruling has stood for over two decades (1980) without it being too burdensome.

QUOTE(Amlord @ Nov 26 2003 @ 11:39 AM)
The principal originally banned this because he had to provide protection for the boy not at the dance, but for the rest of the school year in school. Here comes another boy who then invites the guy from the first case (who is out of state at the time) to the dance. The principal is clearly trying to protect this boy, not only at the dance, but at school as well.

From what I read, the court addressed this issue in the ruling:
"Aaron's conduct is quiet and peaceful; it demands no response from others and in a crowd of some five hundred people can be easily ignored. Any disturbance that might interfere with the rights of others would be caused by those students who resort to violence, not by Aaron and his companion, who do not want a fight."

Maybe I'm fuzzy on my logic, but the victim of abuse isn't usually held to blame for the aggressive actions of others against them. Nor should they expect to be punished for them. Hostile actions taken by those opposed to equal treatment is not the fault of those targeted.
Amlord
QUOTE(Abs like Jesus @ Nov 26 2003, 12:03 PM)
Maybe I'm fuzzy on my logic, but the victim of abuse isn't usually held to blame for the aggressive actions of others against them. Nor should they expect to be punished for them. Hostile actions taken by those opposed to equal treatment is not the fault of those targeted.

Here is where your "logic" fails:

You are free to say whatever you want, act as stupid as you want. Fine.

The government is not obligated to protect you from the ramifications of your choice to exhibit certain behavior or say certain words.

If I stand up at an NCAA meeting (held in a public gymnasium let's say) and start screaming that all blacks need to go back to Africa, does the school (it's the school's property) have the duty to protect me from the ramifications of my speech? No, I will argue, they don't.

Everyone is responsible for their actions, that includes both outspoken advocates and opponents of said activists. It is not the government's role to physically protect certain individuals because of their chosen behavior. It IS the government's role to enforce the law and crack down on law breakers (such as those who would assault someone else, in this case).

I am sure you overlooked the quote I cited earlier where it said:
QUOTE
The principal, Richard Lynch (the defendant here), denied the request, fearing that student reaction could lead to a disruption at the dance and possibly to physical harm to Guilbert. The request and its denial were widely publicized and led to widespread community and student reaction adverse to Paul. Some students taunted and spit at him, and once someone slapped him; in response, principal Lynch arranged an escort system, in which Lynch or an assistant principal accompanied Paul as he went from one class to the next. No other incidents or violence occurred.


Nothing to do with the dance, it had to do with the actions in school AFTER the dance.

The principal's reasoning in the original case was that he was trying to protect the student from abuse by other students (via the ban). My reasoning here is that this is probably a similar situation, with the principal actually trying to protect certain students from the reactions of other students.
Mrs. Pigpen
The solution to this is pretty obvious to me. A school should not be expected to expend extra limited resources and incur extra liability in order to ensure protection for two people at an extracurricular function. The school is not required by law to hold a dance.

If the students want their dance, they can hold it privately in a separate area off of the school grounds. Then, anyone could be allowed to attend with or without whomever they choose, and the school will not incur extra liability.
Abs like Jesus
QUOTE(Amlord @ Nov 26 2003 @ 12:13 PM)
Everyone is responsible for their actions, that includes both outspoken advocates and opponents of said activists. It is not the government's role to physically protect certain individuals because of their chosen behavior. It IS the government's role to enforce the law and crack down on law breakers (such as those who would assault someone else, in this case).

As enforcement of the law requires protection of citizens from physical assault, it seems it is the government's role to physically protect individuals, especially when their chosen behavior is not itself in violation of any law. Like issues of the past, this is one of civil rights. As with Rosa Parks and the public transportation system or Linda Brown and the Board of Education, same-sex couples and homosexual students have a Constitutionally protected right to be included in all school activities.

QUOTE
The principal's reasoning in the original case was that he was trying to protect the student from abuse by other students (via the ban). My reasoning here is that this is probably a similar situation, with the principal actually trying to protect certain students from the reactions of other students.

And the court commented on that reasoning:
"I find that principal Lynch's reason for prohibiting Aaron's attendance at the reception the potential for disruption is not sufficiently compelling to justify a classification that would abridge first amendment rights."

In discussing implications of the 14th Amendment in regards to the original case in 1980 the court had this to say:
QUOTE
This case can also be profitably analyzed under the Equal Protection Clause of the fourteenth amendment. In preventing Aaron Fricke from attending the senior reception, the school has afforded disparate treatment to a certain class of students those wishing to attend the reception with companions of the same sex. Ordinarily, a government classification need only bear a rational relationship to a legitimate public purpose; only where the classification encompasses a suspect class or burdens a fundamental right is the government held to a stricter standard of justification. Counsel have conceded that homosexuals are not a suspect class sufficient to trigger a higher standard of scrutiny. As noted above, however, there is a significant first amendment component to Aaron's desire to attend the reception with another male. Where, as here, government classification impinges on a first amendment right, the government is held to a higher level of scrutiny.

Coming back to the case of Amanda Blair and Big Piney, Wyoming, in the two decades since Fricke v. Lynch I believe contemporary counsels could agree and conclusively support that homosexuals are indeed a suspect class. As such I believe a court reviewing the current case could reasonably extend beyond the First Amendment issues to include the Fourteenth Amendment in finding Big Piney High School's dance policy unconstitutional.

That seems to also be the take of the ACLU:
Ken Choe, of the ACLU's Lesbian and Gay Rights Project, said the ban violates students' constitutional rights to freedom of expression and equal treatment.
CNN story

QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Nov 26 2003 @ 12:16 PM)
The solution to this is pretty obvious to me. A school cannot be expected to expend extra limited resources and incur extra liability in order to ensure protection for two people at an extracurricular function. The school is not required by law to hold a dance. 

The school has an obligation to protect all students, and I haven't seen where they would have been required to provide any extra protection for any two people at the dance. The original case only required protection beyond the dance after the student was assaulted in school. To my knowledge schools are required to protect any student who finds themselves the target of assault. Even then Cumberland High School needed only expend such "extra limited resources" as an escort from class to class by a single member of school faculty.
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