Sometimes when I get really hungry I'll comment, "I'm starving - like an American." This is my tongue-in-cheek way of acknowledging that "poor" in America means a far different thing than in third-world countries.

America is one of the few places one will see overweight people on welfare. Even our homeless are pretty well off in comparison to the homeless in, say, Zimbabwe or Haiti.

So this begs the question - if international orgazinations such as the WHO or UNESCO insist on raising the standard of living of the poor living in the third-world, to whose standards should their living be raised? To the standard of life of an "average" American or other westernized nation? Or the "average" of someone in their own country?

You have hit on a subject near and dear to my heart. Would that it was not so late so I would have more time. Yes, we are ALL rich compared to some countries. Our poorest are rich compared to some. The memory of children going throught the dumps looking for food in Manilla and other places still tugs at my heart.-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Table F-3. Mean Income Received by Each Fifth and Top 5 Percent
of Families (All Races): 1966 to 2001

(Families as of March of the following year. Income in current
and 2001 CPI-U-RS adjusted dollars 28/) Top
Year Lowest Second Third Fourth Highest 5
fifth fifth fifth fifth fifth percent
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current Dollars

2001 $14,021 $32,466 $51,538 $76,646 $159,644 $280,312
2000 30/ 14,122 32,289 50,747 74,791 156,919 278,063
2000 29/ 14,232 32,268 50,925 74,918 155,527 272,349
1999 13,320 30,996 48,933 72,153 147,779 254,840

This is a "quickie" table from US Gov. site I've come up with for the present.More information will be forthcoming.

yes, we are all rich in this country overall compared to some other third world countries. But we need to keep in mind that although there are overweight people on welfare, that doesn't mean that children in our society aren't suffering. there are children that are homeless and/or living in sub-standard conditions here in the United States. We shouldn't forget to show concern for our own citizens when we're showing concern for people in other areas of the world.

The poor in other countries tug at my heart also, but the poor in this country are my first concern.

Why should our standards be the same as Zimbabwe or Haiti? We live here and have our own standards.

If we're using their standards, maybe the poor should go to the bathroom in the streets as they do in some third world countries.

MT

PS-I didn't mean to sound sarcastic. Darn it! I'm always doing that.

MT

I could not agree with you more!

I think more, than anything, it has something to do with our immediate surroundings.
For instance.
The bloke next door to me has only one car and I have two.........is he poorer than me?.
I know for a fact that he subscribes each month to 'World Aid'.
I subscribe the same amount.

Ask yourself again, as I did when I found out, is he richer or poorer than me?.
To my way of thinking he is far richer than me, I didnt think but now I do.

I am NOT a bible basher but there was something about 'the widows mite' that struck me hard.

We have so much, and others have so little because they were born in the wrong place.

Regards.........Alan

In some ways I think being rich or poor is a perception. I remember wishing, when I was in grade school, that my parents could afford to buy me a large box of crayons with all the colors instead of a small box with only the primary colors. I wished that I could order chocolate milk for twenty cents a week instead of white milk for five cents a week. So, I knew there were kids who had more than I, but never did I think of myself as poor. Those who had more were rich, but I was not poor.

Today I read of the middle class, upper middle class, lower middle class, working class. What is this? I don't remember hearing about all these classes before. There were the rich, the poor and everybody else was middle class.

You really can't tell how rich people are by their possessions. Some people will spend every cent they have and some are more frugal.

Alan--Yes, we are lucky to be born in the land of plenty. On Thanksgiving we will sit down to a meal with ten times more food than we can possibly eat. I always feel guilty, so I make a donation to a food pantry. It's just the way it is.

MT

While the perception of poverty may be relative (the official poverty line in the US is $9039 for an individual, $18104 for a family of four), there are many Americans living well below the poverty line. According to Hearts and Minds (a New York based volunteer organization), 22% of Americans under the age of 18 - and 25% under age 12 - are hungry or at the risk of being hungry. And their stats are not based on the inability to afford a Thanksgiving dinner. Every day in the US, twenty-seven children die as a result of poverty - mostly through starvation. And this level of poverty is on the rise. According to the Department of Agriculture, the number of food-insecure households increased 9.4% between 1999 and 2001 - to 11.5 million households (about 33.6 million people or 12% of all Americans). Forty percent of these people are ineligible for foodstamps. In many parts of this country, we are Zimbabwe.

One note on "overweight people on welfare": the body has natural defenses against starvation, and when it experiences enough of it, it slows down the body's metabolism to make less food go further. When a person is subjected to starvation repeatedly or over long periods, the body gradually adjusts by storing more fat in preparation for the next time. Because poor people are more likely to go through periods of starvation than rich people, they are more likely to trigger these natural defense mechanisms. The fact that so many people on the poverty line rely on fatty foods (like the trans-fats in McDonald's fries that lead to more deaths annually than alcohol, tobacco, and addictive drugs combined) is also a contributing factor.

Wertz-- I knew my post was a little off base when I typed it. I was trying to make the point that even though the numbers tell me I was poor growing up, I never felt poor, so I don't think I was. Of course, I was a child of the depression so I had lots of company.

Your post is about real poverty and it's a darn shame that it exists in this country.

MT

Madtown: No admonition was intended. The fact that our official poverty line would be considered an extraordinarily high standard of living in some countries testifies to the relativity of poverty. But, while many of our poor are relatively affluent compared to much of the third world, we should not forget that our poorest are as bad off as the poorest anywhere.

Being poor and hungry surrounded by wealth is far more uncomfortable than being poor and hungry surrounded by poor and hungry.

Either way in this world of ours with its vast wealth and overproduction of food it should not happen and regardless of what we are led to believe WE DO OVERPRODUCE.

During the late 1970's Europe suffered from an overproduction of certain foodstuffs, butter,cheese,potatoes and various others. The catchword at the time was "the butter mountain".
They were piled up and destroyed.
WHY???
Because it COST TOO MUCH to get it to those in need and the price to you and me had to be maintained.

In the early 1980's there was an overproduction of grain, prices fell and the excess was converted into cattle feed and fertiliser.
WHY???
Because it COST TOO MUCH to get it to those in need and the price to you and me had to be maintained.

Capitalism in action, NOT democracy.........capitalism.

Each and every one of us regardless of where we live has a value.
Buy as much as possible and pay taxes..........value for money.
No money....No buy...starving......No pay taxes............NOT value for money.

Capitalism out of control.

Regards....Alan

It's been going on forever. I remember my mother telling me that her parents, who were dairy farmers, dumped their milk rather than take a low price for it.

MT

So what can we do?...........
Complain like me?....or accept like you?.
Either way it happens.

Is there any way???.

Best.....Alan

We can post on americasdebate.
Here, our statements we can make

We can post far into the night
As we try to make everything right

But alas, all with us do not agree
Because they are too blind to see

But no one can make us stop
We'll post until we drop

Madtown

When you're hungry and living on the street,
you're country has no name
Calcutta, New York, San Juan, Rome,
all cities look the same
When you have to work three jobs to feed your kids,
and you're all living in one room,
desperation is your wife,
and sorrow, your groom.

The reason you’re on the street my man
Is your own fault, you did not plan.
It’s because you have not family values
Is what the Conservatives will tell you

If you’re poor, you must be lazy, they say.
Better look for a 4th job right away.
Sorry you’re kids are hungry and sick
But welfare help might become a habit

It's the survival of the fittest, you see,
We do not care about such as thee.
The help you need we will not give
Cause, we're the Compassionate Conservatives.

And when you fall ill from overwork and bad diet
Don’t look for free healthcare, just don't try it.
For weak performers, not a care do we give
Cause, we're the Compassionate Conservatives.

Madtown

If you are a lazy bum
Do not expect us to pay your way
Just because you are a worthless drunk
Should not mean benefits under the ADA
Your kids don't know who is there daddy?
Don't come to me looking sadly
Sitting on the couch it must be great
Being a product of the welfare state

This is just getting silly...

Not sitting on the coach, working 3 jobs. Go back and read.

Madtown

If you are working three jobs and still poor you must be an idiot.

Or an unskilled underpaid laborer, perhaps?

Madtown

If he is underpaid then he needs to get a job that pays what he is worth. If he is unskilled, he needs to acquire skills. Gee, wonder how I ever went from being a 19 year old kid earning 10 cents more than minimum wage to a college degreed member of the middle class.

You didn't need to work until you were 19? Lucky You

Madtown

People who work more than one job tend to be doing part-time work, and so they don't get benefits that full-time workers get.

I'd suggest that you not criticize the poor too harshly lest you find yourself walking in those moccasins. There's some sort of natural law governing this. Oh yeah, karma.

So every person who can work and can obtain education has only himself to blame if he falls on hard times? All help holds back our economy and society?

These arguments were largely disproved by the depression in my opinion.

Hey, I'm walking talking proof that even if you strive, even if you work hard, and even if you manage your career well, the street is awefully darn close. A lot of this has to do with luck. During the building of a career, you need to take risks. Some of those risks pan out, some do not. Having 20-20 hindsight, I can see that my decision to remain a contractor and not become an employee may have screwed me.

However, I would have had to become a WorldCom employee. Chances are I'd have been screwed anyway.

So there you go.

I am, of course, not on the street. Just a lot closer than ever before, and way to close for comfort. Boy, am I ever glad I was a regular contributor to food banks, the Salvation Army, and public TV/radio! Maybe I've got enough in my spiritual 401-K, eh?

We're getting WAY off topic here. This is supposed to be a comparison of third world poor to American poor.

My original question was:



Let's get back to that topic, please.

Our poor are rich. The GDP in countries in Africa is less per year than some unemployment checks.

We don't starve in America. We don't suffer famines. We are blessed in part because of our system and in large part because of the tremendous amount of arable land and significant natural resources within our borders.

When did I say that?

The depression was caused by the government screwing up on monetary policy. Our government shrunk the money supply by approximately 30% from 1929-1933. Viola! Depression. The solution for failed government policies is not more government.

Tsk. Tsk. Ignoring an admin. Not nice.

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