Okay, 62 years ago today our world changed as the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and we changed our foreign policy overnight from isolationist to interventionist.

This is a subject that has a high level of debate over it in terms of what the United States government knew and when they knew it.

The question for debate is, did the US government intentionally allow its forces to be bombed at Pearl Harbor so that we could enter the war? Is this entirely true in terms of there are people who deserved to be brought up on charges for willingly allowing those 2,000 plus people to get killed so we could get in the war?

Are there kernels of truth in that the US suspected an attack was coming was not very vigilant in upping the defenses?

Is this more a case of an intelligence failure in which the United States had information that could have let us know an attack was coming and we failed to react?

Or is it all conspiracy theory with the truth being that the US had no reason to expect Japan would break international law and jump us in a cowardly manner.

December 7, 1941

PEARL HARBOR MYTHS

Day of infamy

Pearl Harbor: It might have been avoided

Divers in Pearl Harbor uncover secrets of USS Arizona

and one last link
Pearl Harbor vet defends brass

Eeyore,

I will never believe that a President of the United States of America - whose number one priority it is to protect US citizens - would turn a blind eye and allow America to be attacked, just to get us in a war.

If a President will LIE to satisfy political ends, (and both parties can trot out examples of Presidents doing just this,) and the government is capable of falsifying stories to get itself into a war like it did in the Gulf of Tonkin incident, then why is it so hard to believe that the government could lie in a situation involving American lives?

For the record I don't think America knew exactly what would happen; but at the same time posing strict embargoes on expansionist industrial powers in another hemisphere (resource poor ones at that) really only has one outcome.

People love a good conspiracy theory. Keeps us from getting bored.

1. If the politicians knew, then the military knew. If the military knew, it would have come from assembling large fragments of information from a number of sources (what? you think it came from one person who said it to only one other person? really??). If the military knew, then A LOT of people in the military knew and SOMEONE would have mentioned it early and often. And credibly. With supporting documentation.

2. The attack was a surprise, because we really didn't think they were going to operate so far away from their current operations further to the west. There had been submarine traffic around, but nothing on the order of the six aircraft carriers operating at a mere 200 miles away from Oahu.

3. We were also in the process of negotiating a peace agreement with Japan when they chose to attack instead. This was also surprising to the politicians.

For more on the history, check out: The Pearl Harbor Attack, 7 December 1941

Also, if you ever get a chance and have a few hours stuck in central Texas, I recommend the Admiral Nimitz Museum of the Pacific War in Fredericksburg.

The American goverment really started the war against Japan with an oil embargo, FDR gave the Japanese no choice but to attack. He knew he was doing this. Japan has basically no oil of its own, it imported 85% of its oil from the United States. FDR froze Japanese assets in the United States and cut off its oil, threatening to destroy its economy. Japan had little choice but to use its stratigic oil reserve and attack the United States.

FDR knew Japan was going to attack because he started initiated a war with them, but I don't think there is any reason to imagine he knew what time teh Japanese would bomb pearl harbor, only that they had to do so.

Really? What exactly prevented Japan from coming to the bargaining table to alleviate the problem?

Exactly- Japan was wrongfully taking over territories and massacring asian lands-America tried to control it with the best possible way- through trade. That does not justify the attack. America hurt Japan economically, and Japan could have come to terms on the same grounds. Attacking pearl harbor was way below the belt and so was America's nuclear attacks and none of the respective actions justify the other.

Japan was, (like, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, the British and French Empires, American Pacific Empire) subjegating less industrialized people and using them to extract raw resourses. That was wrong. They ought to have been stoped and it is good they where driven out of Asia.

That doesn't change the fact that any country that has its energy supply cut off must attack. That doesn't just hurt a country economically, it destroys it and reduces it to pre-industrial standards of living.

Japan however had the option of stopping itself from getting destroyed. Japan wanted its supplies AND wanted to go on taking advantage of Asia. An attack was not JApan's only option. Symbolically, it was like a murderer who complained and attacked people for punishing him for murder. America gave Japan a choice- Japan just acted without consideration.

No, it didn't.

Japan was already at war with the British and Fench empires. It would be destroyed if it didn't get oil. Its best chance for survival would have been a quick and limited war. The United States wanted a long and unlimited war.

Japan's reason for conflcting with French and Russia - unjustified

Japan joining Axis- wrong

US asking Japan to move out of Asia- right

Japan not moving out- wrong

US blocking supplies- justified

Japan not compromising and attacking- wrong

Even if US privately wanted war, which I doubt, it gave Japan an open choice to move out of Asia and none of the sides would have been hurt, and the weaker Asian territories would have been left to themselves. Japan did not.

I think it was at least 30% intelligence failure but it was mostly the conspiracy theory one because it was something you would least expect. We were negotiating with the Japanese before Pearl Harbor. We expected them not to stab us in the back. In other words, lack of caution and suspicion.

The Soviet Union was also caught off guard when there was a mountain of intelligence pointing to a German invasion. A German deserter even gave the Russians the exact time and date of the attack, yet the Soviets were still taken by surprise. The fact that we were taken by surprise despite intelligence pointing to an attack does not by itself prove that the government wanted the attack to happen.

Pearl Harbor was so disastrous that the US could conceivably have the lost the war in the few months following it. If not for a miracle at Midway when we sank four Japanese carriers, we very well may have. FDR may have wanted the US to enter WW2 but I highly doubt he wanted to put the US in a position to lose it. The conspiracy theory also ignores that FDR wanted war with Germany, not necessarily Japan. There was no guarantee that Germany would declare war on the US if the Japanese attacked, that Germany did is probably one of the biggest blunders of the war. The terms of the Tripartite Pact only required the signing nations to declare war if one of the members was attacked. Since Japan attacked the United States, none of the other Axis powers was duty bound to declare war on the US.

Did the US really need a disaster in order to rally public support for the war? In my opinion FDR would also have had the necessary support for the war had the American fleet been forewarned, and the Japanese fleet decisively defeated. Either way we would have been attacked by Japan and American lives would have been lost.



Tripartite Pact

Conspiracy theories are lovely things mostly because they have lives of their own and can never fully be proven or disproven.

FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor? I believe that as much as I believe LBJ was in on the Kennedy Assassination or Dubya and the Israelis were behind the September 11 attacks---which is to say, I DON'T believe in them at all!

Intelligence failures are often to be blamed for the avoidable tragedies of the world. I choose to believe carelessness is often the reason instead of willful malice.

Sort of off topic but I don't believe that the United States had an isolationist policy to begin with. Washington's Farewell to the Monroe Doctine have been misinterpreted by most in my opinion (but that's another debate). Either way I think the interpretation of isolationism in the US is unsound. Disproven by example.. (WWI the Spainish American War, etc)

Out

You're right: as a country, we don't have an isolationist POLICY, but we do have a number of isolationist POLITICIANS. Back in the '30's, those politicians had a considerable influence on our war readiness and acted as a yoke on the politicians who wanted to jump into Europe with both feet to stop Germany. Part of it was economic, of course, since we were still strained economically and many politicians weren't interested in funding a massive war effort at the expense of any domestic assistance the government could provide.

I will concede that...good point

Of course the best argument against this particular absurd conspiracy theory is: Why the hell would the President do such a thing?

FDR wanted war with Germany, he understood the threat Hitler posed and was doing quite a lot to slowly bring the country in line with a European war.

So why would he allow PH to be attacked? That would (and did) raise the ire of the American people to a furious level and concentrate it all on Japan. japan would become the white whale for US policy, and all other issues would be secondary.

Please remember that the Declaration of war by Hitler on the US was NOT a predictable event, and in fact it has been argued by many that it was his worst decision of the war. Had Hitler not taken this foolhardy measure, the US would have been FURTHER from a war in Europe due to PH, not closer.

Personally I believe that FDR had sufficient evidence to know that the attack on Pearl Harbor was coming. Everything pointing the the "disappearance" of the Japanese Carrier Fleet points to an attack on American Bases in the Pacific, including Hawaii.

FDR had met with Churchill a few times by now regarding the war in Europe. I believe that he wants to use the Pearl Harbor attacks to declare war on the Axis, and hence get in the action in Europe, therefore not putting the fleet in Hawaii on full alert.

Also by a surprise attack, FDR wanted the Japanese to be seen as villains in the eyes of the world, as attacking a nation without a declaration of war isn't justified.

Forgive me, but thats a bit silly. Firstly, there was no reason to assume there would be no declaration of war by the Japanese, in fact there WAS a declaration of war, but due to a clerical error it was not delivered until AFTER the attack had taken place.

Secondly, as I already stated, a sneak attack from the Japanese would put the US further from a war in Europe, not closer.

Thirdly, it is true that the Japanese carrier fleet being lost was a cause for concern, but this is not the days of sattilite imagine and high altitude spy planes. Those carriers could have been anywhere, even just around the corner or still in Japan. Even if they knew the carriers sailed with hostile intent, it was very reasonable to assume they would head for British or Dutch or Chinese interests, and EVEN if people knew they were moving against the US, the obvious choices of targets were Wake, the Phillipenes and Midway, to name a few. The fact that their spies and radio traffic could not find the carriers for a few days meant nothing.

Lastly, even if all the above was not true, why leave PH unprotected and unready? Why not spring a trap or at least prepare your forces to fight back? The attack still takes place, the war is still on, Japan is still the aggressor, and the US does not risk losing its entire Pacific fleet and main Pacific naval base, and in fact possibly even deals a serious blow to the Japanese Navy.

Instead the US 'cleverly' left itself all but defenceless in the Pacific (Remember, doctrine at the time was for Battleships, supported by carriers, not for carier war. To the Navy, the Battleships were the biggest prize) for months, leavign japan free to consolidate and expand, and take other US posessions in the pacific without reinforcement.

I can see that I am going to have some good arguements with a super lefty like you. First of all, Japan had already invaded CHina in 1937, ever heard of Nanking, and its RAPE. The Japs also had their eyes on the oil in the Dutch colonies in Indonesia, that is where they planned to get oil from, and the Aleutian Islands off Alaska. Americans had been planning war games with japanese aggression in mind since the mid 1930's. In a very general way, our military leaders knew the evil regime of Hirohito and Tojo would eventually attempt a major attack on the US, through some intelligence gathered during the 1930's. Gee I wonder why the famous Admiral Yamamoto attended college in the United States during the 1920's, to get some cool rays and see the hot coeds? NO he was doing some early spying on the industrial capability of the US. THe Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was merely an extension of Japan's imperialistic aims that started in China and korea in the mid 1930's. Thankfully, once again, good won over evil and we destroyed Japan decisively, and the as is our want, we quite nicely built them up again during our occupation from 1945-1954. Dang, don't you hate when America always win, I am sure that you do TragicClown. But God alway makes sure that the good guys win in the end. I notice your communists aren't doing so hot these days, or your capitalists either? When is Russia going to get to work and become a viable, competent country?