I wasn't sure where to put this topic, because there are many different reasons why people become vegetarians...health, environment, economic, animal rights, etc.

So...the questions for debate: Should people voluntarily go veggie, what type of vegetarian, and why? or are we better off with meat in our diets, and why?

"Should people voluntarily go veggie" is kind of an odd question, considering the "should" and "voluntarily"... I mean, of course if it's a matter of health concerns or something, then they should become a vegetarian. But other than that, I don't see why they should. Unless they want to, of course.
My parents have been vegetarians for about five years, and I'm not so sure it's the best diet. My mother now has to take six nutrients and vitamins a couple times every day because the last time she went to her doctor, she was told she was severely lacking them. So it's my opinion that it's best to have a healthy balance of everything - meat, dairy, vegetables, fruits, and grains.
After all, if god didn't want us to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
Oh, and I have a question that I've been debating with me parents - is seafood considered "meat"? I thought "meat" meant the flesh of an animal...

You're right Suzy, I did word that question strangely. I'm basically asking people to state their personal feelings about vegetarianism and eating meat, and if they feel that eating meat is wrong or vegetarianism is wrong, I want them to back it up with facts.

For the record, I am not a vegetarian, but I'm open to the concept, and while I've seen a lot of good arguments for being a vegetarian. I haven't seen very many good arguments for eating meat. If I can find them anywhere, it will be here at America's Debate.



I'm not so sure about that. According to the American Dietetic Association:



and the FDA



Certainly, a healthy vegetarian diet takes planning, but I could argue that any truly healthy diet requires planning.

I would say that we eat too much meat in the West. In living memory, a predominately meat-based meal was something that would be eaten only once or twice a week. Nowadays, we feel hard done by if we don't get two or three such meals each day, and we have the obesity and disease problems to show for it, not to mention the industrialised, inhumane farming and slaughtering practices that have to be there to enable this to happen cheaply. Read Fast Food Nation if you want to know how it is possible for burgers and chicken nuggets to be so cheap to buy. (And I can almost guarantee that you'll think twice before you eat your next one.)

We plainly aren't designed to be complete carnivores (like cats). On simple biology alone, we cannot get vitamin C from meat (most true carnivores, including the cat family, make it inside their bodies, either themselves or through their gut flora), so we have to eat some fresh fruit and vegetables to avoid scurvy.

At the other extreme, we do not have the distended, slow-moving, multi-digesting intestines, with large vermiform appendices that herbivores like our close relatives gorillas and orang-utans have, or more distant herbivores like the ruminants we tend to eat most of use. (Pigs, like us, are omnivores.)

And our teeth are not specialised either for cutting flesh or grinding plants, but can do both. In short, we are by nature omnivores.

Any dietary movement motivated by optimum human health (as vegetarianism often claims to be) should therefore promote the judicious inclusion of meat in the human diet. (NB, the Atkins diet does not fit this criterion, including, as it does, far too much meat for long-term health. I guess it's okay in short bursts, though.)

Those motivated by simple squeamishness or by a concern for animal welfare should recognise that, with a reorganisation of farming (towards smaller scale production that concentrates more on quality than quantity, such as the organic movement), or simple consumer education and empowerment, animal husbandry standards could dramatically improve without any major move towards vegetarianism. The simple expedient of going to small specialist shops rather than huge super and hyper market chains would do a great deal in this regard.

As for veganism, I've often wondered what would happen if we all turned vegan tomorrow. Surely, all the millions of livestock that we currently eat, milk or get eggs from would not be released into the wild to live out their lives in a pastoral idyll - they would be killed as pests. I eman, they woud be eating the crops we grew for ourselves, wouldn't they? And the rolling green acres that we so admire where they are raised (the lucky ones that aren't kept in sheds that is) would be ploughed up to grow the cereals and vegetables we'd all have to eat. What would be the point of cultivated grassland with no herbivorous livestock?

I eat meat. I did go veggie for about a year and then one day I craved a steak and the craving got so bad that I succombed. My reason for going vegie was diet. I am the type of meat eater that doesn't like to be reminded that I am eating an animal. For example, occasionally if I buy a carton of eggs, one day I will open the carton and visualise the little chick hatching. Then I can't eat those eggs or any eggs for a while. I can't cook a turkey or a whole chicken or eat any kind of meat that is on the bone. But if it is deboned and I can't see or visualize an actual animal then I will eat it. Why, cause I can't bear the thought of accepting that I am eating another animal. Is this rational, no, am I hypocritical, yes. But for me it is the whole visual experience that turns me off. I don't eat meat that often anyway, ususally only when I eat at someone elses house or out to dinner. At home I can't remember the last time I bought an actual animal "flesh" product. I don't care for milk but LOVE chocolate soy milk. So I drink that a lot. I don't think vegetarianism or carnivorism, or omnivorism (ok i realize that I have made up some words here) is bad. What ever suits you.

I have no moral objection to eating meat, but I do think most Americans normally get way too much meat in their diet for a proper healthy balance. I'm trying to cut down on meat and eat more fruits and veggies, but it sure isn't easy for someone that's on the go a lot and has to eat out more often than not.

One veggie item I use a lot of at home are spinach and feta Gardenburgers, AFAIK only available at Costco. Slap one of those on some serious whole grain bread, add a slice or two of really good cheese, and a nice thick slice of sweet onion, mayo and mustard to taste, and you've got the fast food burgers beat by a wide margin on taste, and on nutrition too.

Another vegetarian item I'm fond of is Health Valley Spicy Black Bean Chili (no meat, just soy protein). Add cheese, onions and hot sauce to taste. Yummy stuff!

A topic of great interest to me.

I have been a lactovegetarian for about fifteen years now, after spending more than three decades as an omnivore. It was the easiest change I ever made in my life. I did it in one day, and I have never missed meat. In fact, I feel a little squeamish thinking about meat now. Not even thinking about the source of it, but the stuff itself; it just seems pretty disgusting to me nowadays. This just goes to show you how our attitudes can change based on our behavior.

There are usually three reasons given to promote a vegetarian diet. Enough has already been said here about the health aspects. Let me simply add that one can certainly have a healthful diet that includes meat, and a lousy diet that excludes meat, as well as the other way around.

The second reason is to lessen one's impact on the environment. Much has been said about the impact of the meat industry on the planet. I won't go into this much, because my personal choice has zero impact on this issue, and I believe that vegetarianism will be a minority lifestyle in developed nations for as long as I can see into the future. (Although vegetarianism seems to be "in" right now.)

The third reason, and the one of most importance to me, is the ethical issue. I had always felt a vague guilt over eating meat. I was also a hypocrite; I would eat meat, but there was no way that I was going to hunt or slaughter an animal for my food. I have great respect for those of you who are willing to do so, because your ethical system is consistent; mine was not. Eventually my better half, who never liked the taste of meat anyway, made the change and I went along. I feel much better about myself now. I don't wear leather or fur, and I try to avoid other products that involve the suffering or death of animals. (I try to consume only diary products made without rennet.) I'm sure that I fail in this attempt, without even knowing it. I know I am not perfect -- it would be better to go vegan -- so I try not to judge others. I would like it if every adult were fully aware of what happens to animals in order to produce the products we consume.

I am a strict carnivore. I have a weird disorder that prevents me from eating green vegetables and any type of seafood, I automatically gag if not worse. I am a strict meat and potatoes guy. I also don't feel sorry for the animals I eat. Everytime I'm reminded that I'm eating an animal I look at my cat and think "She hasn't worked a day in her life, she has it sooo easy." I also have no qualms with slaughtering meals too, my uncle has a ranch in Humble, TX and has raised many meals, oops I mean animals, that I have personally put down.
The only animal that I deem unfit for human consumption is Shrimp, I swear it's the bug of the sea.

I went vegan for almost a decade...from the age of 16 to 26. My grocery bills in college ran around 100 dollars a month. It's great for saving money, if you prepare your own meals. Of course, the really good tasting fancy frozen stuff can be quite pricey.

I gave up all meat and dairy for a number of reasons, none of which had to do with my health. I actually found that I felt much better when I resummed eating meat. I don't know what sort of vitamins I was lacking, because I was very careful to take the necessary suppliments.

I would recommend the book Diet for a New America, by John Robbins, for anyone considering giving up meat. Actually, I'd recommend it to anyone regardless. John Robbins stood by his convictions and gave up his rights to inherit the company and fortune of Baskin Robbins, which was founded by his father. His book offers a complete explanation and some very sensible reasons to go vegetarian. I believe that some meat intake is absolutely important, but with the newfound popularity of high protein Atkins-style diets, Americans are going far overboard.

There are numerous reasons to go vegan or vegetarian, or simply cut your meat intake a bit. The first reason: It's cheap.
A second reason: A primary driving force behind tropical rain forest destruction is the American meat habit. Once a portion of the rain forest is plowed down to create grazing ground for the cattle, it lies fallow after a short time due to the lack of productive soil. Wetlands are not designed to harvest crops, so more acres are destroyed in order to sustain the cattle. I believe the methods in other parts of the world are more efficient land-wise, but we do import vast amounts from from S America for cheap. The people in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, and Panama are not destroying their wetlands to fund their own meat intake, they are doing it to generate money by funding ours.

Reason number three: Livestock production is extremely inefficient food for exchange of resources. According to the book I cited, half of the water used for all purposes in the US goes into the production of livestock. The water needed to produce a pount of wheat is 25 gallons, a pound of meat 2500 gallons.

There are also the aspects of animal mistreatment which I won't go into. It is simply better for everyone on many levels to limit their meat intake.

I find myself a vegetarian, once removed.....cows eat grass, I eat cows

My sister found an interesting book called The Gradual Vegetarian, which listed multiple stages of becoming vegetarian, and potential reasons for each stage. For example, phase I (which is where I am) is becoming worried about the fat content, etc. for meat, and therefore starting to cut red meat, etc. from your diet. Then there are progressions, for various reasons ranging from health concerns to ethical issues, for progressing through the other stages (I think there were 7). I think many vegetarians proceed through a similar process--what do the more 'advanced' vegetarians out there think?

I wonder what stage I would be in?



I tried the Atkins diet a few years ago, when I wanted to loose 10 pounds. I lasted about 2 months and felt disgusting! I remember my skin itself felt very oily. I was constantly brushing my teeth because I had this horrible taste in my mouth. Not to mention the odor when going to the bathroom. I'm not kidding. I felt completely unhealthy and gross. So I stopped and will never do it or recommend it to anyone. It amazes me how the Atkins diet gains popularity throughout the decades. My dad did it in the 70's. I just found it to be repulsive.

My uncle used to be a dairy farmer and would raise some cattle for consumption. Now he raises some to become milkers. I remember as a child having to deal with the idea that some of them would be put death. It was horrible. Cows are really cute and have such great personalities. To those who don't think so, go hang out with one! I just visited him recently and he was talking about how the "big" industry dairy farmers feed their animals. I think it was with additional hormones so as to push up their milk production. But by doing this they were also shortening the life expectancy of the cow. Which to me sounds counterproductive anyway. He never did this, he always fed them with natural grain and such and his cows had a longer life expectancy. Anyway, even though he did raise some for consumption I have a lot of respect for him and the business he did. It was hard work and he didn't (doesn't) abuse the animals.



I will have to tell my 13 year old niece to do some research on this. She is going to the rain forest this summer and has turned into quite a rain forest activist!

Hey Rev. I am not surprised with your response (by looking at your avatar).

The thing is I really do love animals! All animals including humans! Victoria, One day I may make the step again and go vegetarian.

I really do love animals too, I changed my avatar to a less controversial one. The old one is cute if you can see it in detail, the look on that poor kitty's face is priceless.
Back to the topic, even though I love animals, other than consumption there is no use for them in industrialized nations anymore. As long as there isn't an over consumption of a particular species there should be a problem with it.

My family went through this phase when I was a child. It was in order to help my father deal with a disease he has called gout..otherwise known as the rich man's disease. He was tired of all the medication he had to consume to keep it under control and being that is is mostly effected by diet he...or I should say we..decided to make a complete overhaul of our diets. So for about 2 yrs my family ate Macrobiotic..I dunno if anyone here is aware of what this is but it is pretty intense and I felt sometimes like my parents were subjecting me to torture

I have been a Vegetarian on and off and to be honest the only reason I watch the meat intake in my diet is my love for myself I just find it to be a far healthier lifestyle. I do eat meat but if I was asked to go a month or more without it I would not be the least bit bothered. I do not have any kind of aversion to meat or the idea of the slaughtering or anything like that. I very rarely eat red meat. I am also not into the idea of processed foods and that to me even means things such as pre-cut deboned chicken breasts etc. I buy my chicken whole and chop and debone it myself...you get like three meals of it this way and the meat is of better quality. I don't think I would be bothered to slaughter an animal myself either. The meat I primarily eat is chicken and seafood and I have been deep sea fishing and I caught a yellowfin tuna and my friend taught me how to gut it and filet it. I also use to live next door to a small time egg operation and I have no special place in my heart for chickens...with the exception of eating them and their eggs.

I have been around kitchens all my life and food and the preparation of it is all so normal to me.

One thing I find funny is I have had friends of mine who are vegetarians etc. based on personal philosophy and throughout our relationship it will come to my attention that they were unaware of what rennet is or they do not know that some foods and drinks are clarified etc.

I agree with Julian too...if we all became vegetarians then deer and bunnies would be eradicated much like the wolf has from Europe.

#

You're right, but when I wrote it I wasn't thinking of the rabbits and deer and wild animals that would be competing with our food production (and in most cases already do).

I was thinking of all the millions of cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, chickens, turkeys, ducks, and geese, along with thousands of more rarefied meat-producing species like ostrich, kangaroo or crocodile that can be farmed for meat.

I was thinking about what would happen to them if the campaigning, PETA-end of the veganism lobby were ever to get their way. Do they imagine that all the former livestock farms will simply allow the animals they currently make a living from to eat the new arable crops that they will have to plant to stay in business? My guess is that they would all be dead within a year. Hardly a triumph of animal rights.

I am a proponent for vegetarianism.

I became a vegetarian when I was 17 years old.
I was going through a phase of wanting to get
really healthy, and a friend of mine gave me a
book to read called "Survival into the 21st Century".
It's an excellent book, filled with a lot of information
about nutrition and the importance of a vegetarian
diet.

Anyway, long story short, I stopped eating all kinds
of meat (inc. chicken, fish, etc). And I felt so much
better. I went through a 2 year phase of eating only
fruits and raw vegetables - that was the healthiest
period in my life.

Also, I should mention that I went through 2 pregnancies
on a vegan diet (no meat, eggs or dairy). I gained only
20 pounds with each pregnancy, and my first child weighed
9 1/2 pounds. My second child was almost 10 pounds.
So, don't let people tell you a pregnant woman needs to
eat meat to have healthy babies.

I could go on and on about the benefits of vegetarianism.

However, it is a choice that each individual needs to make.
If everyone stopped eating meat it might have an adverse
effect on our animal kingdom.

With as many soy based meat-substitutes that are available, it's not absolutely necessary to have meat in the diet to be healthy. As I posted before, according to the FDA and The American Dietetic Association, soy offers a complete protein profile. For some, soy may not be a good option, but I would say that official dietary guidelines should focus on the protein requirements and provide information about how those proteins can be attained for both vegetarians and meat-eaters without endorsing either one.



Well, I don't think you have to worry about everyone turning vegan tomorrow. If a reduction in consumption of meat occurred due to PETA's campaigning, it would occur gradually, and I don't think that Westerners will ever give up meat entirely.

I hate vegatables. Well pickels Ketchup hotsauce and corn are alright. Ooh relish.
I would simply die if I ever tried to eat vegatables and nothing else.
Give up BBQ Ribs, pork chops, steak, chicken, BBQ pork, BBQ Chicken, BBQ Shrimp and of course BBQ.

I can eat veggies raw sometimes
Tofu,,,Eeeeww! besides soy raises estrogen levels in men

I'll stick with being a carnivore. Well I think beef is out now. I just read a bit to much on meat processing methods. I figure if I stop now I can still manage chicken.

Shrimp on the barby is great. But tofu,
sauteed, fried, baked, and yes, even barbecued, is
simply delicious!! The great thing about tofu is that it
takes on the flavor of whatever spices and seasonings
that you add to it. (I learned how to make a wonderful
Curry Tofu dish. It's mouth-watering.)

When one becomes a vegetarian it is a lifestyle change.
But, there are so many vegetarian delicacies available
that it is not a hardship to live this way!

Should people voluntarily go veggie, what type of vegetarian, and why? or are we better off with meat in our diets, and why?

Or should they INVOLUNTARILY go veggie at the behest of the state which will grow tried and broke taking care of obiese and sick people.

Anything in moderation is a good thing, including ingesting illegal drugs. Too much of anything including sex, chocolate and coffee (hey, how'd you know I was talking about my vices?) is bad. Common sense dictates that.

The problem here is the vailed attempt to blame red meat consumption and the slaughter and ingestion of poor defenseless little animals with the virtue of not doing so.

While you may have all the virtue you can eat I prefer my virtue served medium-well, smothered in onions and a loaded baked potatoe next to it.

Yes, anything. I myself rather enjoy a sprinke of arsenic on my salad on occasion. And lead paint chips are great snacks if you're on the go, but only every once in a while.


Anyhoo, I myself am a lactoovopescovegetarian. I am so for the reason Mrs. P gave, resource management. Raising livestock on the scale we do is an inefficient way to produce food. I'll actually eat anything that was hunted (mmm venison), just not something that was fed corn (which drains the soil of nitrogen) and raised on what used to be a rainforest or wetland. And don't get into the fishery argument with me, I exercise strenuously and can't stand to eat enough soy for the protein I need (and the extra estrogen doesn't help shed body fat). So I take the lesser of the evils for protein intake.

I won't go so far as to say that eating meat is immoral, but we certainly eat too much, and what most Westerners consider a moderate amount of meat consumption is excessive.

Who's suggesting that? I already stated that my initial question was worded poorly, and I qualified what I was looking for in the debate.



The word you're looking for is "veiled," and if you read through the thread, you will find that some people have discussed the issue of animal cruelty, some have discussed health, and some have discussed environmental effects. Some eat meat, myself included, and some do not. Nothing veiled here. We are merely having a discussion about the positives and negatives of each diet. Do you have anything constructive to add to it? Do you disagree that there is a problem with the way we raise animals or the effect that the volume has on the environment or health? If yes, tell us why you feel that way.

Here's an interesting article weighing the benefits and risks of soy consumption

Soy- Super Bean or Super Threat
I'm hesitant to start a soy habit in lieu of meat/milk.


Personally I am a omnivore. For a few years I completely abstained from red meats but in college I have succumbed to eating some red meat again (abiet limited)...Personally I feel best when I limit my meat intake to lean meats and rarely red (mostly poultry and fish). I think American's don't have so much of a problem of overdoing meat/protein as overdoing everything and making poor choices about what to overdo (carbs [bread, goodies, chips] & meat [hamburgers, bologna, hotdogs]) in particular. I couldn't easily become a carnivore or a herbivore....being an omnivore is the obvious choice for me. An omnivore who makes informed choices about the meats to eat or not to eat.

right now I'm working to choose lean meats (mostly poultry and fish), eat more veggies and fruits, less breads and processed carbs, more whole grains and more nuts.

To each his own on the diet deal...it seems that the diet vogue is as fickle as fashion and changes as quickly but that some classic choices will always be in style.

Its pretty renowned that a Mediterranian diet of natural foods; beans, whole grains, small portions of proteins in the form of meats and fish, vegetables and fruits, nuts, rice, pasta and olive oil was probably the healthiest diet around.
That was until we started feeding growth hormones, chemicals and feeding dead and diseased animals to each other or raising and slaughtering them in unsanitary conditions. Reading about it will make you think, and make you sick.

I have been all sorts of vegetarian over the years, I have eaten meat on and off, but now again, I will only eat fish and shellfish as animal product, most of it caught here in alaska, sometimes by me. Oh, and I eat some dairy.
However.. I never turn down a home cooked meal if I am invited, no matter what it is, because I have some spiritual ideas about being gracious to hosts and food presented as a gift. I have been known to suck down a thick piece of boiled bacon fat in broth in Yugoslavia, because I was a guest and they gave me the biggest and best portion of all they had, which was a big slab of boiled fat. I could only hope my thighs would recover. I refused the second portion begging full, but this is what one must do sometimes not to insult.

Vegetarian diets are easy if you cook, its harder if you dont have time. There are no health risks for most people, but diabetics do have some concerns since they cannot do excessive carbs. Some people dont feel right without meat in their diet, others can go without.
If you like the idea and want to experiment with vegetarianism but dont want it to be boring, I'd recommend East Indian cookbooks, especially Madhur Jaffrey who specializes in easy to make indian cooking.

She also has: Step-by-Step Cooking: Over 150 Dishes from India and the Far East, Including Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia.
http://www.book-reviews.info/Indian_Cookbo...066214025.shtml

Health food stores (Whole Foods) have thai, indian mixes in dry foods section and
!Gardenburgers! in frozen, which actually are good, several flavors, for those without time.

Being vegetarian has been a relief to me more than anything. Im not too strict, but I get a satisfaction from it, both ethically and health wise.

The choice is ours. The fact is we as Americans eat far too much meat for our own good. Eating less would be a good thing. I am not a vegetarian but respect the decision and dedication. It is not easy to not eat what is common for the majority of us.

I have found the Mad Cow debate interesting. I have not eaten red meat for decades and don’t really miss it. The chances of getting Mad Cow are small but it is easy to look at the research regarding colon cancer to learn that beef is a major factor in the disease that is the #2 killer in the US behind lung cancer.

Yes, there are health risks related to the consumption of
meat (esp. red meat). A lot of people do not have the
digestive tract strength to properly and completely digest
meat.

I have seen pictures of the undigested "matter" found in
the intestines in a book called "Tissue Cleansing Through Bowel
Management." It would shock most people to see what
is getting stuck in their bodies, and turning into hard fecal
matter. Stuff that inhibits the absorption of vitamins and minerals
as well as leads to bodily ills.

I have been a vegetarian now for 9 years. I had several reasons:

1) As an environmentalist, I couldn't justify supporting an industry that is so destructive to the environment. Like Mrs. P, I have also read "Diet for A New America" and became very aware how much damage can be caused by our excessive meat consumption in this country.

2) I've always been a bit on the squeemish side and could not eat meat if I thought about where it came from, This meant I couldn't eat anything with bones, skin or vessels attached, and I had to have what meat I did eat so well cooked that there was no blood or pink. I felt very hypocritical about eating meat under such circumstances.

3) I felt much better physically when I switched to a meatless diet. I am aware that it may not be that way for everyone, since people have different body chemistries. The only times I run into trouble is if I do too much veggie junk food. In addition, vegetarians are shown (for reference see the book "Diet for a New America") to have fewer and milder incidents of osteoporosis, heart disease, and many other diseases which primarily affect "rich nations" -- those that induylge in large amounts of meat.

That being said, I'm don't judge harshly those that don't choose my lifestyle, since I find it hard to go vegan even though I belive that's the most ideal diet.

I also believe that low-scale and humane sources of meat production are a good thing, as well as having meat rarely, like a side dish or occasional meal.

Well so far i have been reading a completely western perspective on vegetarianism.As an indian of a community called brahmins we have been vegetarians to the core for more than thousand years .So obsessed are my people with this idea that they would detest and excommunicate a guy of their community who took non vegetarian food.but then they consume milk.

Health angle-Well vegetarian communities in india have been looked upon as healthy ,long living and intelligent people.Somehow there is a notion in india between intelligence and vegetarianism.In fact vegetarian communities in india have made the maximum contribution to intellectual activity in india.With the kind of health facilities in india 60-100 years ago i should say that it was extraordinary that there were quite a number of centurians in my family.But of late modern day people have led to a totally luxurious lifestyle with little physical work or activity and cardiac and diabetic problems face this community like anyother.moreover a lot of oily food goes down the tummy.So i believe merely being vegetarian is not sufficient to be healthy.you are still required to be moderate in diet and do a lot of physical work.the point is that vegetarians dont suffer in health just because they are vegetarians.that has been proved by the evidence of centuries.

Ethical angle-
Animals undergo pain and suffering on slaughter.Science has proven that man is not a discontinuity from animals.There is a continuoUs intellectual transition from apes to humans.Feeling of emotions and pain is experienced in various degrees by every living creature.Hinduism believes that there is soul in every living entity and by terminating an organism we are preventing the spiritual and physical evolution of the creature.The act will take a toll on one's own karma.Moreover the case of human being is different from an animal.the human being is in command over other creatures and can manipulate the future of animals.should he not use his power judiciously?Should we not ask that delibrate breeding of animals for meat has led to a disproportionate increase in the numbers of animals such as cattle ,hens,etc?so we have allowed greater numbers for these animals than their evolution would allow them.if the karma/conduct of the animal were good it would evolve in a fashion to to survive attack from predators.who are we humans to manipulate this chain and also deny some easy food for fast dissappearing predators.More over every organism commits sins ,as we eat that organism we become the holders of these sins.it is better to be closer to the primary link in this regard-the plants.No suffering must be unnecessary ,every additional suffering caused will be a sin.So where is the logic for killing animals as long as there is plant food available.the hindus made a compromise by having milk which does not kill the animal.in traditional places the milk is removed only after the calf has its full.why not come for this compromise.even hindus believe that when there is no possibility of a vegetarian diet non vegetarian food can be had.but after moving over to favourable circumstances they should turn over vegetarian and also atone for the act by offering prayers for the dead and fasting and doing good.the balance of karma has worked well for vegetarian brahmins.any one can conduct a statistical survey to find out that the brahmins as a whole, when talking of averages have led the least unhappy lives,have been subjected to the least degree of violence such as rape or murders or the like.i am not talking of my community as a most virtuous or the like ,i am just offering you an explanation for their extraordinarily pleasant lives in spite of not being among the richest people.

spiritual angle-ethical and spiritual are linked together.better the human being closer to god.a vegetarian cannot be said to be a better guy than a non vegetarian if he does other kinds of bad acts like robbery,murder,corrupt acts etc.but what if he does not do any wrong acts.what if he is pleasant and kind to everyone?will he not be closer to god?hinduism believes that food is divided into the spiritually acceptable,the avoidable and the detestable.when the food we eat promotes disturbing spiritual vibrations we have less control over our thoughts,emotion and mind,and do not respond to the goodness in our heart.

YOU DONT HAVE TO LOOK AT VEGETARIANISM IN THE ANGLE OF ANY RELIGION BUT LOOK AT IT AS A WAY TO MAKE YOURSELF A MORE SENSITIVE,KINDER HUMAN BEING WHO FOLLOWS HIS CONSCIENCE WHEN HE IS UNSURE OF THE RIGHT THING .HE WILL WIN THE HEART OF THE LORD. AFTER ALL FRIEND ACCEPT IT OR NOT EVEN ANIMALS ARE DESCENDANT OF YOUR ANCESTORS.

Is it quite simply not true to suggest that you NEED meat. The only thing that makes it a superior protein source is that it contains many more amino acids, when broken down, that a vegetable. However, this can easily be rectified if you eat a range of veg since you can easily consume all the appropriate amino acids. The RDA for protein is about 50 g per day, with the help of oats and of beans or any legume this is exceptionally easy. The protein issue is very much overstated, its just that most people have far too much of it.

Wrong. If you are a couch potato 50 could be enough. However 1 gram per pound of bodyweight is a better level. Maintain your muscle mass and decrease your body fat levels. Muscle burns more calories so it can help maintain bodyfat levels.
This is why dieting is silly. Because all you do is lose water weight and muscle mass, effectively reducing your metabolism and energy levels making your body even more inefficient and even affecting your mental ability(exactly how cults often attempt to control members).
However don't want to eat meat and use supplements to make up for the vitamin defficiencies fine.I realize some people do it for a supposed health benefit, but generally most vegatarians I have met follow that path for philosophical reasons.

Meat is Murder (I love that sandwich commercial with the guy in the elevator surrounded by veggies who start singing)

However, inspired by the cloning right or wrong thread
If you could clone say, chicken breast or pork chops etc. getting rid of any harm to the animals.

Would you then give up vegetarianism and consume meat?

The meat I eat at this time I personally kill (about 90% of it anyway)- whether it be fish, moose, caribou, sheep, mountain goat, deer, fowl (ptarmigan, duck, goose) rabbit. I killed enough this year to stay on the Atkins diet without having to buy any meat at the store. The meat I kill is very low in fat content, and since it is in Alaska, there is very little if any heavy metal contamination like you find in the "lower 48". I am a very efficient hunter and waste nearly nothing, with the exception of probably the offal, but sometimes not even that, as I feed that to my dogs. The hide I make into clothing or sell. I kill no animal I don't plan to use as much as possible of. I do not trophy hunt, I have no "heads" on my walls, I sell the horns to local knife makers and some local artisans, to offset the cost of the hunt. My meat averages about 99 cents a pound for everything in my freezer. REally saves the dough for living in Alaska!

The only time I eat "cow" is when I eat out really. Well, that is not quite true, I do buy some pork fat from a local farmer for some of my sausage.

Veggies out of season up here are pretty bad, and it is hard to get not-cardboard tasting veggies at the store in the middle of winter up here. Oh well, part of the price you pay!

I am a great advocate of moderation - which is why I think it is important for people to become aware of their eating habits. I really think many Americans consume way to much meat. Really, we should be eating no more than 3 red meat meals a week, with not too many more chicken type meals above that - eating meat with every meal is really not the optimal human diet. The best possible diet would be meals of whole grains, nuts, and vegetables with some fruits sprinkled in (we're not supposed to eat as much fruit b/c they are generally higher in sugar and calorie content than the veggies), supplemented with a meat meal once a day.

Of course, if you really wanted to eat efficiently, breakfast would consist of a good meat meal (be sure to watch your serving size!), followed by a nice carb laden meal at lunch and lastly a salad meal (or at least a meal low in fat and carbs) at dinner.

I have no ethical qualms about killing animals - I grew up hunting and fishing alongside my dad and even helped slaughter a cow or two on my grandpa's farm. I also learned the value of conservation and using as much of the animal as possible (which is why my grandpa's house is practically dripping in leather ). I would like to have the ability to live off of my own kills like crusing ram - but living in a city doesn't make for good hunting (the squirrels are really stringy here). But since I cannot always hunt/gather my own food, I try to be as environmentally conscious as possible when I go to the supermarket. Luckily there is a nice farmer's market near me open every other week that I can get farm fresh produce that comes directly from small farms.

The small farms are (mostly) the most efficient and environmentally conscious way to provide the meat and veggies for us city dwellers - in fact the corporate farms usually have to break the law in order to make a profit. This is why it is unfortunate our government (state and fed) does not do enough to prosecute the corporate farms for breaking these laws. But, when they are allowed to operate without regulation - the smaller farms are pushed out of business and we are left with few choices. Smithfield is a major corporate pig farm in Virginia and they are terrible polluters - frequently breaking the laws without regard for anything except profits. Smithfield has been a major contributor to the pollution that is killing fish and more in the Chesapeake bay and its tributaries. There was a federal law suit brought against them, but the Bush adminstration stopped it... so now they can continue unfettered and competing small farms are being driven out of business - making it harder for me to find pork and pork products from independent farmers.

I know many more similar problems that have occurred in many of the meat and produce areas - which is why I seem to be eating less and less meat lately. I do admire some of the vegetarians who have the discipline to not eat meat out of conscious - but really IMO it requires more than just not eating meat to fix some of the problems. The PETA people really annoy me because they don't like to pursue a solution that could work - that is, pursue the prosecution of the mega-farms that not only treat their animals in unimaginably cruel ways, but pollute the environment and hurt other farms/fishermen/etc in the process... instead they like to target whoever they can - which often seems to be the smaller farmers who are already having trouble competing against the mega-farms who can break the laws in order to undersell them. THere was a similar group in Arkansas a few years back that broke into my Grandpa's farm and let all his cows loose - which in the end caused the death of several cows - whereas my Grandfather is very good with his cows and they have ample room for grazing, etc.
I wish people would start campaigning against the mega-farms and not just all meat-raisers in general. But, I at least do my part and try to be as conscious of the source of my meat as possible. Of course, in my mind the best meat any way is the freshest - that which I (or my family/friends) brought home for myself.

mmm... this has gotten me hungry. I think I've still got some homemade venison sausage in the fridge... yummmy.

i have no problem with vegetarianism, as a matter of fact i kind of wish that i could become a vegetarian. but there is NO, i repeate NOOOO reason to become a vegan. veganism is idiocy. Cows have to give milk, hicckens have to lay eggs. OR THEY WILL EXPLODE. there is no moral, health or logical reason for not eating eggs and milk. if you have a problem with the way that the eggs and milk are being harvested, then dont buy from the chicken farm company, buy some organic free range

You may call a Vegan diet idiotic, but have you seen pictures
of the inside of an average, meat/cheese/egg/milk consuming
person? It's not too pretty. Stuff gets literally stuck to the wall's
of the colon, and it is a major source of malnutrition and illness.


There is a book called Tissue Cleansing Through Bowel Management.
Inside the book there are photos of the black, thick, tar-like fecal
matter that was painfully dislodged from the colon of an average
person (who had a diet of meat, cheese, eggs, milk etc.).

If you want to live longer and be healthier you might do a little
homework on the Vegan diet.

Just for the record, children were meant to drink mom's milk,
not milk from a cow.

i have seen pictures from the inside of the average meat/egg/milk plant and i do agree, it is horrible what happens to the animals, with the eye blinding and the burning off of the bills and the indivual square foot cagers. however there is a simple answer to that problem. DONT BUY FROM THOSE PLACES. as i said. buy from organic non mass farming...farmers and your problem is solved.

I think recently we are seeing a big detriment to eating meat, something which is not necessarily about the meat itself, but how far we have screwed up in mass farming, feeding and sanitary/hygenic care of the food source.
We have broken the rules of nature in trying to achieve optimum results for profit, thereby endangering ourselves, by feeding unhealthy animal product to other animals, feeding animal proteins to animals that are vegitarian, besides injecting all kinds of chemicals and hormones into our food source which surely is eventually consumed by us, it doesnt just go away....

There is on the other hand the cruelty aspect, which most would like to ignore or see as a non-issue, until one sees or experiences it first hand. Not in the killing, but treatment up to and how.
Cruelty towards animals is not so unusual in our culture, since our cruelty to one another is often so extreme and thoughtless, but I thought harikrishnan's post was interesting and aligned with my ideas that all things are connected in this world, cruelty or disregard for others, human or animal eventually affects all and everything, yet, there is a food chain. As the thinkers, instead of achieving an effective and respectful use of our food sources, we have reduced many animals to nothing but a product to abuse and treat with utter disrespect.

Mad cow and the recent bird flu, while right now may not be for most people something to consider; in my mind these are warning signs that we are not on the right track in our designs that bigger and faster /more profitable is better and that we are doing something terribly wrong as thinking managers of evolutionary design.

I suspect we shall see some fallout from genetically designed vegetables as well, eventually.
Already there have been cases of pollinators being affected, and the pollinators are such a huge part of our eco-system.

Humans are messing around a bit too much with the food source, and scientists playing a bit too heavily, all for profit but, IMO, short term gains and longer term problems.

http://www.patagonia.com/enviro/reports/a_unnatural.shtml
http://www.msawg.org/positions/ge.shtml

The problem is that we as humans need to test the waters, as long as we are curious we will not be content with not knowing whether we could clone, or create overly large vegetables. We as a species need to know whether super vegetables could end world hunger. Things like Mad Cow and the new bird flu are side effects of our trying to see what our limits are. For if we were not the curious species that we are, we wouldnt have created the wheel, or the super computer.

Hmmm. Well if the cows weren't milked, what would happen? The same thing that happens to human women if they don't breast feed or ween their infants -- they stop producing milk.


From the Frequently asked questions section of a veggie website: http://www.goveg.com/feat/faq.html



That site also talks about what would happen if the demand for animal food were to gradually diminish:



I believe that veganism is the ideal way to eat, although I agree that it's difficult. I found the transition from meat eater to vegetarian easy, but I have a long way to go to make the transition from vegetarian to vegan. It's that cheese addiction of mine . . .

My grandfather and now my uncle owns a slaughterhouse and ranch in Wyoming, and of course, since these are "range" cows/steers etc, there is little cruelty from humans (most poeple don't realize how terribly cruel nature is by comparison) I ate steak out of our slaughterhouse I worked in as a teenager.

Now, the "feed lot" raising of cows/steers we have today is another matter, and the feeding of other cows to the cows is causing BSA- we never did that, and still don't.

We must remember that our ancestors, the apes, were vegans.Some evolutionists say that the transition to non vegetarianism significantly contributed to human evolution.I would say that perhaps at that point of time such a transition helped us to survive harsh weather conditions.But we must remember that we also stopped evolving.Also remember that apes and monkeys are the most intelligent creatures in animal kingdom.We lost some of the positive abilities that we had,such as our ability to climb trees and a greater flexibility of body.We have undoubtedly achieved many other positive features when compared to apes,but the process of losing the flexibility was not necessarily positive.Evolution is what we direct and we evolve due to many factors and not one.so some of the changes we have made is not positive.I used to consume milk twice everyday,then i reduced it to one time a day.finally to few times a month.I have seen an extraordinary improvement in my flexibility and robustness.i also was surprised that i was extremely fresh when i woke up in the morning after only five and half hours of sleep.this schedule is being maintained by me even today.the greatest thing that i have found about vegetarianism is that we are extremely flexible and mentally far more active than if we were non vegetarians.Imagine what would happen, if we all of us become vegans for atleast a 10000 years, eating a lot of roughage along with easily digestible ,no oil, no fat, juicy, food?We may once again find use for our appendix.We all know that then we can survive anywhere in the world, as vegetarians,because plant eaters are at the lowest end of food chain in the animal kingdom ,and unless we have a plant eater in a particular region, we cannot have animal eaters in that place.so you will find plants everywhere.i do agree that this is not true about some places where you can find only poisonous plants ,or where you find only fish eating animals.but then in most places of the world ,you will find vegetarian mammals or birds ,and most of the food they eat should be non poisonous.Ancient men were able to find out if a particular plant was poisonous by watching the creatures which eat them.

Reach your hand into your mouth. Feel the two middle teeth. Now move to the left (or right) 3 and 4 spaces. Those teeth are for tearing meat.

I think eating meat is wrong yes... since we don't hunt them ourselves instead we pay people to slaughter millions and millions a year. But a good juicy burger or steak makes me stay a omnivore.

As for milk... I'd only use it for cooking and my cereal... as I think everyone should and you'd agree if you read this article.

White Poison

I also don't think vegetarians are so bad, makes the prices of steak drop. Also means more meat for the carnivores. If it came down to it I'd run after a cow and take it down with my vigorous teeth and ninja ways!

Take care