This argument makes me sick to my stomach. Americans would in fact do these jobs, I see them doing it everyday. My mother, uncles, and grandparents did field work in the 40's and 50's, following the crops throughout the year. I have personally worked in the kitchen at restaurants, washing dishes, scrubbing floors, etc. It's certainly not glamorous work, and at minimum wage it doesn't let you live very high on the hog. But it sure beats unemployment and sleeping under a bridge.


I think money and energy would be better spent finding out why this is and addressing the problem rather than importing workers from other countries.


Agriculture and the hospitality industry isn't going to cease to exist without low wage workers, if nobody will do it for such a low wage, then they would have to pay more!


So, the person would have to already be here illegally or have a way to acquire a job in America while still in their home country? Doesn't sound very feasible to me, unless businesses are going to set up recruiting stations in foreign lands in case they can't fill positions. Hmm, maybe the money spent on an endeavor like that could be used to raise wages here and make those same positions more attractive to the workforce available in America!


How the heck can an employer do that? I'm sure somewhere in this country there was an American worker that would have taken the job, and does that mean that if even one American applied he/she would have to be hired before the non-citizen could be considered?

This plan makes no sense to me. We have millions of people out of work, yet we are going to invite countless individuals from other countries here to work? Perhaps we should focus on improving wages, benefits, and working conditions so the jobs are a bit more appealing to our own citizens. Or how about putting the millions of people on unemployment and welfare to work in these jobs (if they are physically able to work) instead of giving them free handouts?

NiteGuy,

That is an excellent point, but may I also add that the Latino culture lends itself to this very way of living. Family is the priority in the Latino community and it would be unusual to find a family that did not consist of father and mother, children, in-laws, et al., living under one roof.

I am a resident of southern Calfifornia, where some millions
of illegal ("undocumented", to use the PC term) immigrants reside.
I have very strong feelings about this subject. First of all, I do not
think it is okay for anyone, whether they be from Mexico, Central America,
or anywhere else, to come into this country illegally. And, if we are
justifying their doing so, because it is so beneficial to our economy,
then we have noone to blame but ourselves.

There is no question that they are filling the jobs that are, to many of us,
undesirable. A large percentage of these illegals work very hard.
I wouldn't have a problem with documenting the ones that are already here,
giving them temporary work visas, etc., IF we would
find a way to stop the huge flow of imcoming illegals that seems to be neverending.

Here in southern California it is astonishing how much "attitude"
the illegal workers have. A few weeks back they decided to teach us all a
lesson by not showing up for work. In essence, striking, because
they want to have driver's licenses and other rights that are granted to
citizens. There seems to be no regard for the laws, and that makes me angry.
I cannot respect those people who have no respect for the laws of this country.

I am not surprised that GWB would pander to the minority like this. If he had an ounce of integrity.....

All those that think by not allowing farmers the access to this needed employment, which in some states illegals account for over 90% of the farm labor, that we will in fact better our country because wages will rise. Do you not understand that farmers, hotels, restaurants etc won't just swallow this cost and smile? They pass it on..it becomes more expensive to eat out, to go on holiday to build a house and to buy your groceries. Also do you realise that we live in an open economy? I personally don't think we would see an increase in wages but rather an increase in imports. A lot of farmers will not be able to compete with other countries whose agriculture ind. does have access to even cheaper labor. I would hope that the very least America could do is be self sufficient when it comes to feeding ourselves.
People will eat out less because it is too costly or they can't afford it because their housing is now more expensive..or they are saving for a holiday that now takes longer to save for..it has a rippling effect and they call it inflation. Who cares if you get paid more if your groceries cost more, your housing costs more and holidays are now beyond your budget.

The farmers have been asking for this kind of help for years now. It is not just some new idea...migrants from Mexico have been helping the American farmer for nearly 200 yrs. So how can we say Americans can do it on their own? How do we even know this?



There are also stories of men, women and even children who are recruited by coyotes to be smuggled and offered full payment of the costs to smuggle them with the agreement they will pay it off and a job most often in Florida. They are then sold to labor contractors...did you get that sold..they are slaves..and then they are kept locked up in one room shacks or trailers. When people have gone to try and help them they will refuse..they would rather be enslaved than be deported. I know I am a bit of a bleeding heart but this very disturbing to me. And it happens like everyday life in some areas in our country and the gov and the American people do very little to change it.

I can understand people's anger towards those who ignore our laws..but enslaving people is illegal too and a far more worrying crime in my eyes. This is very much an issue of morality..and the US really needs to start doing the right moral thing.

doomed_planet you are absolutely right. There is a very large latino and Mexican population here in NE Georgia and alot of them are illegals and their attitudes are less than desirable. And now this incentive to break the law and be rewarded for it will only lead us down a path of further erosion of our boarders to the south and an even weaker economy and job market for LEGAL citizens.

You are clouding the issue here. We are not debating the treatment
of illegals who decide to pile into the back of a truck, with
hundreds of other illegals, because they heard there was a better
life waiting for them.
It is sad when people do foolish things, and suffer the consequences.
A friend of mine, who is from El Salvador (and by the way, she married a
guy to get her green card), knew a girl who had 3 small children
(back in El Savador). This young woman decided she'd try her
luck in America. So, she paid someone to bring her over.
While she was traveling through Mexico (to get to America) there
was a band of robbers who held up the vehicle that she and countless
others were riding in. She ended up being murdered
(and who knows what else)....What is the moral of the story?
It certainly isn't "try to get into another country illegally."

And, by the way, she had a fine life in El Salvador. She and her
kids had plenty of food, a roof over their heads, and so on...
It was a foolish decision on the part of a 21 year old woman with
3 kids, and she paid for that mistake with her life..

((I think it was Mark Twain who said, "The world doesn't owe
you a thing. It was here first!"))

We do not owe illegals who come here, a better life.
If they want to sneak over the border, and work for less
than adequate wages, then so be it. But, they will get no sympathy
from me because of it.

How about everyone taking an ounce of responsibility for their lots in life.
You can be a bleeding heart for the "underprivileged" farm workers,
but it won't solve the problem of illegal immigration. If you truly care
about the welfare of the illegals, wouldn't you want their pay to be increased?
Or are you just happy being able to pay less for everything, and go on
those much desired vacations? Personally, I wouldn't mind paying more
for my groceries and vacations. I don't necessarily think it is a good thing
to live high-on-the-hog at the expense of millions of disgruntled
"undocumented immigrants."

Furthermore, if you think George Bush gives a hoot about the welfare
of any of the millions of illegals that are here, he doesn't.

He wants votes.

He'll stoop to any level to get them.

I don't totally disagree with everything you said in your post, but I must point out that this story is really apropos of nothing, and doesn't prove your point. One could as easily tell this story instead:

A young woman took three small children, and hired a taxi to take her from New Jersey to Brooklyn. On the way, a carjacker murdered them all. The moral? Don't travel to Brooklyn in a taxi. The woman chose to take her kids to Brooklyn, even though they had everything they needed in New Jersey. My point is, we can't presume to know everyone's motivations - whether this woman had the necessities of her life met in her own country or not, we don't know why she chose to try and come to the U.S.A. And, seeing as there are so many people trying, it strikes me as a crisis of perception, at least in part. Of all the things the U.S. exports, surely one of the most ubiquitous (and influential) is the exporting of the idea of the United States as some sort of utopian land where peoples' dreams can be realized.

I'm really not sure how to solve the problem of illegal immigration. On the one hand, I strongly feel that illegal aliens should be afforded the privileges of an economy in which they are participating. On the other hand, a proposal like Bush's may have long-term consequences which are negative. Evidently the idea is to bestow rights and privileges on those illegals currently in the US. Won't that encourage even more to come than ever before? So what do we do then? Build a giant wall around the whole country? Keep granting them citizenship?

I can see also, from an historical perspective, that in a sense we are reaping the fruits of decades of disasterous policies in Central America. Perhaps the best solution is a new model of cooperation and economic relations with our southern neighbors. We spent a long time so worried about the specter of Communism gaining a foothold in Central America, that we allowed some horrific regimes, as long as they were anti-Communist. Before that, we also allowed our foreign policy in Central America to be guided by US business interests (United Fruit, anyone?). Is it any surprise that people who have been living in unstable countries wish to come to the USA?

As far as the politics of this proposal, it seems to me another painfully obvious bait-and-switch tactic, so perfected by GW Bush.

Bucket made a comment that she has concern for the
mistreatment of illegals who enter this country, and become enslaved.

Well, my point was this: If they wouldn't have decided to
break our laws by entering this country as they have, they would not
be victimized in the way she described. If that 21 year old woman from
El Salvador would not have decided to disregard our laws by trying to sneak
into this country, with the help of some other individuals, she wouldn't have
died in such a way.

It's either wrong to enter the country illegally or it's not wrong.
If it IS wrong then we should not be concerned about
the conditions under which the law-breakers are "put", to get here.

There was talk of having water stops along the borders for those who need,
as they are trying to get into the U.S....Minority rights activitists jumping
on the "gotta treat those illegals sneaking over the border better."
That would be comparable to bandaging the hand of the thief who just
cut himself while smashing your window to get into your house..It's ludicrous.


From Cuba, if you can make it to dry land, YOU'RE IN BABY.
Is that not sending the wrong signal?

If an illegal alien has a baby here, that baby is automatically a U.S.
citizen. Well, it looks like we have millions of U.S. citizens being
born every year (probably in L.A. alone).

I see, on a first-hand basis, very young Mexican women, around the
age of 18 or so, with 2 or three kids already. And they are not finished
yet. They don't speak a lick of English, they are relying on our tax
dollars to have those babies, and I'm supposed to be okay with that?
Well, I'm not okay with it. I took great precautions to NOT get
pregnant until I was ready, financially and emotionally.

I would never expect anyone else to shoulder the financial responsibility
for my decision to have a child. And it's not only the financial aspect,
how about the fact of raising those kids to be intelligent, responsible
and productive members of society. How is an uneducated, poor, illegal
immigrant going to properly raise her four children? She's going to
throw them into the overcrowded L.A. school system, and "hope for the best."

Meanwhile, George W. Bush has a plan......a VERY BAD PLAN.

Is that at all necessary? To make personal judgements on my values and what makes me happy in my personal life? Then you complain I am the one clouding the issue? This is not a personal issue to me..it is a political one and I would prefer you kept the discussion where it belongs.

How exactly is their pay going to increase if we allow them to remain illegal ?

That assertion of mine is in regards to those who believe we need to deport or put an end to immigration. If you deport 8-14 million people from the workforce you are going to see definite cost increases.

I do not think if you legalize these workers you will see a very large cost increase at all because our Gov. has already placed in several loopholes for employers to actually legally hire illegals.

I don't understand your point. You are already living "high on the hog" on these undocumented workers. There are estimates that CA alone has 90% of it's farm labor as illegal immigrants. You are not going to be able to deport 8-14 million people. It is just not going to happen...ever.

Maybe you don't care what happens to people when acting foolish..but our society has never taken such a harsh view of life. Many of our laws reflect the need to protect the foolish and it is still illegal to enslave someone even if they volunteer themselves.

When something occurs with such regularity that it can be considered commonplace then society itself does bear some responsibility. Women being raped or murdered when traveling with out a male companion is not just the fault of the women themselves. Society should not accept that it is unsafe for a woman to travel with out protection. We should aim just a little higher even for the fools amongst us.

It was a rhetorical question, Bucket.

Many people act as though they care soooo much about the
welfare of the illegals. But, really they just want someone to do
their dirty work for them. Someone to clean their toilets for real
cheap....

My point is, if people REALLY care about the illegal immigrants
why not give them the jobs and the pay that we citizens have? As long
as we're going all out for them, let's really be humanitarian about it,
shall we? Or, should we just keep these poor souls at the bottom, where
they belong; mowing our lawns, dusting our furniture, picking our produce.

I'm no hypocrit, and I don't mind being politically incorrect on this issue:

It is not okay to illegally come into the US and expect rights.
It is not okay to illegally enter the US and sponge off of the system.
It is not okay to not learn the language.
It is not okay to have babies that you cannot love and nurture and
protect without the help of "the system."

That's my view. You disagree? Fine by me!

One of Electrolux's factories in a small town in Michigan which manufactures Maytag refrigerators, is looking for a more profitable place to go, perhaps South Carolina or a city in Mexico. The employees who have worked here for years and years are going to be hung out to dry in a state that is and has been experiencing unemployment above the national average. It is just one of the companies that is abandoning American workers who had every expectation that their jobs were secure until recently. And this after the city made a very concerted effort to keep Electrolux here, including providing FREE LAND for Electrolux to use, and some tax incentives. This city busted its butt trying to provide Electrolux with what it said it would need in order to remain at its current location.

Now I know, bucket, that you implied in another thread that Americans should not expect to stay in one area in order to remain employed. What you said was this:

It almost sounds as though you would begrudge these citizens a fairly typical, comfortable life in favor of making all workers nomadic. But having put down their roots and made a living--legally--in the same community for many years should count for something. While these workers don't expect to have employers knocking at their doors to hire them, there has been the expectation that the corporations wouldn't make off with their jobs to another country.

Perhaps (especially) Mexican illegal worker wannabes should just stay in Mexico, considering so many U.S. corporations are moving down there anyway. The pittance they will receive from U.S. companies there should make them quite comfortable in the Mexican economy!

My mother came here legally from Canada; so did my father. My family has gone back and forth across the border for generations--legally. They paid their dues.
Part of paying dues means recognizing that there ARE dues up front, like entering the country legally, being documented. I still have Mom's "green card."

I do not see how providing an advantage to people who sneaked into the United States helps the nation as a whole, especially while there are so many here legally who are not making it financially.

(Changed "employment" to "unemployment," third line)

Paladin Elspeth...
What does your story have to do with illegal immigrants? Or the new proposal by Bush? I am sorry but I just don't get the connection.

EDITED TO ADD
I was not going to add this in before because I don't understand the Electrolux connection...but it was bugging me to leave it out. Electrolux is not even an American co. It is now an international company but it is from Sweden. So the whole reason Electrolux was there in Michigan giving American jobs was because a foreign based company decided to "make off with their jobs to another country."

Also if you had a problem about something I said or wanted to question me about something I said in a totally separate thread about a separate issue, being said in context that was not being directed to this debate at all..please go and ask me about it there...not here.

From my experience with debating online.. dragging comments from other separate debates was always considered to be a bit of a no-no.



Go ahead and classify why many care about illegal immigrants as the need for toilet cleaning. However I doubt many of the loudest voices and most dedicated proponents for illegal and migrant workers have toilet cleaning in mind.



Maybe because most illegal immigrants are not qualified? Yet when they are finally recognized..they will be allowed the same pay as citizens. Also I had no idea that toilet cleaning, farm labor, dish washing, child minding and the like were jobs considered to be unworthy of an American citizen. One of the main points of the anti-immigration crowd is these jobs are worthy of an American and that Americans want to do them.
Most Americans tho are ignorant on a lot of the facts of these jobs...like the fact that the national avg pay for farm labor is $8.40. How much more do we need to pay people to work in the fields? It is a unskilled job..it shouldn't pay $15 an hr...if you want $15 an hr go get some education...learn a skill.
It makes no sense to rid ourselves of the natural influencer that makes people try harder..and achieve more.
Besides in an open economy if the wage necessary for farm labor becomes too high..farmers will just look for crops to grow that are less labor intensive. Our wages won't increase to $15 an hr our imports will.



If you don't have a specialized job skill, if you don't have an education, if you don't speak the language, this is where you go. Whether your an American or not..all around the world this is how it works. So what are you suggesting? We should allow non-English speaking, 8th grade educated people to work as nurses? Or as Bankers? Or are you just making fun of people who believe that if you do not speak English and that if you have an 8th grade education you still have the "luxury" of basic human rights by making this idea out to be some kind of bizarre socialist plan.



So why is it ok for farmers to employ such large numbers of illegal immigrants? Why is it ok for the gov to allow this and to even make special adjustments so the farmers will not have any responsibility if their employees are illegal? Why is it ok to make our farmers rely on and participate in this black market labor? Why is it ok for the IRS to knowingly collect taxes from illegal immigrants?

There are a lot of things that are not ok happening and they most certainly are not happening within only one group of people.

Bucket--I checked the rules before I cited your quotation, just to make sure I was not violating any rules. The reason I did was because I feel that your stance on going the extra mile for illegal immigrants vs. helping those already legally established in our country whose jobs are in peril or who are out of work is in fact discriminatory in favor of undocumented workers. It does not take into account the plight of the people who have lived and worked here all or most of their lives.

Yes, I am aware that Electrolux is a Swedish company, because I tried to find an address in order to e-mail them and try to persuade them to stay in Greenville, Michigan. The story made the front page of the Detroit News/Free Press edition today. Only correction I would make in my previous post is that it's Frigidaire, not Maytag refrigerators they produce. While I am most concerned about American-owned companies outsourcing their jobs, foreign-owned companies relocating plants to other countries also have a negative impact on our working populace.

Whether the company is American-owned or not, it is the main employer for a town of 8,000 people. They're going to be hurting. It will affect the entire community.

It is not right for our government to focus on helping illegals when last month only 1,000 jobs were created nationally, and American citizens are having a hard time. If the government helped the undocumented workers and was simultaneously working hard to create jobs for the jobless here, I would not be so critical of this action by Bush.

Paladin Elspeth...

You still have not explained what Bush with his proposal re: illegal immigrants has to do with Electrolux closing and heading south. How is this related?



How do you know this is my stance? My stance on illegal immigrants and my stance on the unemployment are not a one fits all idea. I happen to see the two as separate issues. I don't think illegal immigrants matter one single bit when it came to Electrolux closing. Why do you?
I don't think illegal immigrants again had anything to do with the massive loss in manufacturing jobs ...which accounts for the bulk of jobs lost thus far during Bush's reign...again why do you?


I just wanted to point out to you that those numbers of jobs created and stuff...they never include farm labor numbers. The largest concentration of illegal immigrants is in fact in our farm labor. Even how the data is collected and shuffled about shows that there is a definite separation between the two issues.

We have an administration that is currying favor with the Latinos especially with the proposed change in immigration policy (i.e., saying illegals can stay) while the people who are working here legitimately are having jobs shipped out of the country.

I do not blame the illegal (or undocumented, if you will) workers for this. I do blame President Bush for not adjusting his priorities. This is a cynical measure to curry the favor of Hispanics.

Our jobs are getting shipped to other countries. Electrolux is one of the companies doing it. And while it is a Swedish company, it is just the latest here to hop on the bandwagon headed for Mexico. As a state, we cannot afford to make an offer attractive enough to keep Electrolux here. What is Mr. Bush doing about the jobs being shipped out (and these are jobs for skilled workers)? Nothing from what I can tell.

No, illegal workers would not take those jobs that are filled by skilled workers. But if you have skilled workers out of work long enough, they WILL start planting, tilling and harvesting crops, working at McDonalds and as domestics in the houses of the wealthy. They're going to have to do something.

Mr. Bush is addressing the undocumented workers and the very wealthy, pretty much. The middle class is losing the jobs, while bearing the brunt of taxes to support schools, libraries, etc. The middle class is losing pensions and health benefits. While some of the middle class got about $300 in tax cuts, the costs for medical care and property taxes rose. But tax cuts at best are a very small bandage.

I am saying that George Bush II's priorities are skewed. The overall character of our workforce is undergoing a drastic change, with even jobs that require college specialized course experience being shipped to India. Those who are unable to find work in their specialties are often forced into working for a minimum wage in retail or the service industry. These "stop-gap" job workers (until they are once more employed in their career specialty) may work years in some position that was only meant to be a temporary measure. Jobs that are considered "beneath" what Americans want to do for a living may well be needed by Americans accustomed to making a lot more money and having benefits. Many of these positions are filled by undocumented (illegal) workers.

It really fascinates me to see how this debate has gotten a wide variety of responses from persons all over the political spectrum, with no particular pattern that I can see. This is probably a good thing.

I claim no great wisdom about this subject, nor do I claim to have an opinion which is not subject to revision. As best as I can tell, however, this seems like a moderately decent proposal to me. Certainly not a cure for a difficult problem, but possibly better than the current situation.



Here are some of the objections that have been raised by others:

1. This rewards those who have broken the law. This is a valid point, but I must confess that this is not a law for which I have a great deal of respect. If I were a desperately poor person given the chance to earn a minimal living for myself and my family by crossing a border without legal permission, I would do it. What others may see as an "attitude" I see as a desire for a decent life. While one must certainly praise legal immigrants, I cannot find it in my heart to condemn illegal immigrants who have broken the law out of economic desperation.

2. This raises the risk of terrorism. I just don't see this. Persons who are here illegally with criminal intent will either ignore this program, and remain illegal (no change in the level of risk) or they will join this program, which will allow the United States to keep better track of them (lessens the level of risk.)

3. This will hurt American workers. This may be the most valid objection. I won't pretend to understand economics. However, I think that it will benefit those workers who are now here illegally.

As I say, I am willing to change my mind. For right now, however, this is about the first proposal I have seen from the President which genuinely seems to come from a "compassionate conservative."

I think its the worst idea since NAFTA, first we send a million jobs to Mexico , now Bush wants to dilute the wages of Americans by bringing in 20 Million Mexicans to fight for what jobs we have left here in the U S.

I don't buy this Compassion b S either, where is the compassion for all of the American Families and communites devastated by NAFTA, Do we have a Labor shortage in America, hell no we don't. We have Record Unemployment.

I don't buy that little tale about Simi Valley, either, go south a little into L A, and San Fernando Valley, and you have Mexican Gangs running the streets dealing drugs and killing people. Go to San Antonio Texas, you have the same thing.

Not only should we not allow this, we should deport all illegals regardless of where they come from, and not allow anyone to migrate here if Unemployment is over 2%.

And for christ sake, who suggested we return to the days of the "Grapes of Wrath" . We should all live in Travel Trailers now.

I was just reading a story on the I W W and the Wobblies, and Solidarity, I think it needs resurrection. Its time the people of this country put up a real fight over the way our country is being Mis Managed, and the total disregard Big Business has for Working Families and Americans in general.

That Electrolux Factory near Grand Rapids is history and all 2700 jobs,plus the other 4500 jobs, the factory creates Grand Rapids is already devasted by near 12% Unemployment in the area. And that Factory is heading to Mexico. It was on the news last night.

The State and local community, workers all together offered incentives to this company to the tune of 74 million. It did not change their mind. Perhaps a Boycott of Maytag products would.

Right because how could a Latino possibly be a real American...with true American concerns..and be an American citizen worthy of the president's attention. What are you saying with these comments exactly?
Why shouldn't the President address concerns of the Latino community ? Not all Latinos are illegal immigrants...many Latinos are just like you..Americans.



You don't see the irony of your complaint? Electrolux is Swedish why would it have any patriotic duty to fulfill in America? Michigan allowed it to come in and use it's labor and that is what it did. You rewarded that behavior and even encouraged it so why would the cycle not continue?



Illegals pay taxes too...except they get nothing in return. No one ever questions why it is ok to tax them and allow them no recognition. You know that whole taxation without representation...I thought that was suppose to be some favored idea here in America.
Property taxes are State..what does Bush have to do with that? Medical again is a complete separate issue. You have a lot of complaints that you seem to all direct into this one issue and none of them relate. They only relation is you...and your unhappiness about them.

I just think a president can and will have several issues he can address and deal with at one time. All he did was make a speech about it...that is it. Ohh yes a complete diversion of issues..he must just be sitting in office all day worrying about illegal immigrants..some how a seriously doubt that.

Bush does have a job growth plan...and he did also that same week speak to women business owners about his commitments to job growth and the American entrepreneurial spirit. Yet no one starts up debates about this issue and what we think about how he stands on it.

I am not even a Bush supporter and yet I am so turned off by these constant focuses on negative negative negative. How can anyone be a democrat it must be so depressing!



Care to elaborate? All we ever get for an argument is bad, worst, deport. Someone placed up a debate on what the solution should be and something like 6 people replied.


First we don't have record unemployment. Second we have something like half of the unemployment numbers that they register in Germany, France and others. All countries who do have a very socialist leaning gov. who do practice protectionism, and who do keep strict control of immigration.
Lastly there will be a coming labor shortage.


They say it is now more lucrative to smuggle people into the US than it is to smuggle drugs. Of course there has become a very heavy criminal element involved...black labor is now one of the main components of the black market here in the US.


2%!? Obviously we are not very concerned with economics. Also no one should be allowed to migrate here? No one? Why do you think America is such a great leader in the area of science and technology? Where do you think we get all these great minds to gather here as one? Do you think they are all American born and bred? Then what about the arts and what about literature? Or sports? Then there is music, movies and theatre. What a ridiculous thing to say.



And is there something wrong with a nomadic lifestyle? Nomadism is a way of life and has been a way of life for humans for eons. There is nothing backwards or repressing about it.
I can't imagine you would appreciate others judging how you freely choose to live your life and the culture of your people in such a harsh and negative manner.

I'm not saying what you're implying. I'm saying it's a cynical attempt on the part of the Bush administration to shore up his support in Latino communities, while he could be shoring up support with out-of-work Americans--including Latinos--nothing more. And that would also answer a couple of the questions you asked after that.



Did I mention patriotism at all with Electrolux? Nope--check my postings. Electrolux is only mentioned because it is the latest company to "bail." It is part of a national trend, the bulk of which is American corporations forsaking loyal employees in the quest for a cheap fix for their bottom lines.

You see, my focus is actually on the people who are left here unemployed--productive people who have provided for their families for many years, suddenly without work and maybe in their 50's. It's not so easy for them to get anywhere near comparable work at their age and in this economy. They might well have to resort to working as landscapers, gardeners, domestics if there is not another job like theirs available. But in order to pay their mortgages, they may find themselves working two jobs of this nature to make the payments. In this case they may find themselves unable to get these jobs because the jobs are filled by illegals from Costa Rica, Mexico, Haiti...people who do not pay Social Security or Federal and State taxes because their employers don't declare them. Do you see the problem and how it relates to the undocumented workers?

Not all illegals pay taxes, for their employers would have to acknowledge them to the Federal government and they could be prosecuted.

Employers keep illegal workers on low wages so they are unable to go elsewhere to work--sweatshops. While I know that many posters here would say that this measure proposed by Bush would combat that sort of thing, I would remind them that this is already against the law and if caught, these employers are prosecuted and the immigrants are sent back to their countries. I can't see the operators of sweatshops deciding to "come clean" about it because of this measure being approved.

I'm just maintaining that Bush needs to help America's legal workforce---FIRST.

Bucket: Illegals pay taxes because they are working at an American Job, they don't get benifits because they are illegally on that job.

Your enitire arguments are based on only one thing, the Rich get Richer, and nothing else matters. Sorry buddy, it does matter what happens to Communities and people in this country.

Corporations and Big Business have a Social contract with the rest of society and its time they lived up to it, and its time we booted the people out of office, providing the loop holes in the law that enables Pirating of American jobs.

All Bush is doing is pandering to the hispanic vote, he knows open uncontrolled immigration is not going to become law,, he is hoping the Democrats will make the mistake of condeming the proposal, and lose Mexican votes, its all B S.

PiedPiper and Paladin Elspeth:

I agree with both of you. The citizens of the United States of American are not having their interests looked after in this Bush Adminstration. The citizens interest and welfare should come before any illegal immigrants.

If Bush(that is a big if) would show some compassion(that is the platform he ran on,but since he is elected,forgot all promises) toward the lower and middle class instead of the rich and richer class, we would not have to have this conversation.

This immigration proposal for illegals is like most of all of his other proposals. Something to get the votes and nothing more. Don't believe for ONE MINUTE that Bush is concerned about this matter. The only thing he is concerned about is what his HANDLERS want him to do next.

So please BUCKET,let Bush take care of his citizens before thinking of another proposal to get votes. Surely you can see thru that.

Popeye47,

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried harder.

1) People will always migrate.
2) See #1.

We don't have the resources nor the will to ship 10 million people out of the country. This would devastate the economy. Having them registered will get a handle on WHO is in the country. Notice, it doesn't say they are citizens at all. I also believe it says that these jobs have to be offered to citizens first. The days that uneducated workers in a factory job making 15-20 an hour is over. Add to that the benefits and whatnot the unions demand and the companies simply cannot compete in the global market. Add also to that we get a Democrat Pres that raises taxes you will all but see the businesses fail or go over seas.

I see this as a win/win. We get to get a handle on who is here and we get to tax them and find out who is hiring them. Now, with doing all that I would double the effort to find people or businesses that do not comply. You can't have one without the other.

If you can offer a viable alternative please elaborate because so far I haven't heard ANYTHING else to address this issue.

cusbilla

Personally I believe the Bush Immigration plan is just a voter ploy that will be talked about but not approved till after the election. After the election of course, it will be defeated in congress in it's current form.

Before all the Democrats get all excited just remember Clinton did his little amnesty deal for illegals before his last election as well. Ain't no saints here.

I agree.

But Bush is in the kitchen now and he is the one to take the heat. Clinton has already taken his heat while in office.

TSheCat you might want to get your facts straight Clinton tried to do this in Oct 2000 but the republicans were against Clinton's policy.

GOP Defies Clinton on Illegal Aliens Friday, Oct. 27, 2000

But yet a Republican congress has already done this in 2002.

Congress OKs Amnesty for Illegal Aliens Wednesday, March 13, 2002







If they really wanted to get this passed they would reissue the provision that expired although I agree if they wish to remain in the US legally they should return to their home country and apply for a visa. While I am quite against giving anyone that is here illegally a pass when they broke the law, the immigration policy needs to be changed to allow more people to migrate here legally. As well as we should help those countries build up their economy so that their people wont have to come to the US for a better life. I am not against them coming here but dont break our laws that are on the books now.

With Bush's policy it will not only not change the wages for these people it will give the companies the right to take financial advantage of them, because as many have said if they raised the wage other people might want to do the job. All this week on CNN they showed American citizens doing jobs that some say no American will do and actually get a living wage doing it.

Many citizens would be glad for jobs ‘no one wants’



CNN

No I honestly do not.

I would have absolutely no confidence for any political leader who suggested that the best solution for our current situation would be to ensure that there was a surplus of low skill low paying jobs available. Why not just up the high school age again? Or stop promoting women to work? Then we would have even more jobs available.


This is not true. The way the law has been set-up most employers are guaranteed no responsibility for the actual status of their employees as long as they provided the gov with an I-9. Last yr it was said that nationally there was only 13 cases of employers being fined for hiring illegal immigrants. It is a very flawed system.



The idea would be that these people would not have the power of coercion anymore and they would have a much much smaller group of people to prey on.



My argument has a lot more basis then your little mantra. Perhaps you should read over this entire debate.
From what I am gathering from a lot of people on this debate that what happens to people in this country matters most if you are of a specific Nationality. It is called Nativism if anyone is wondering.



You can have Corp. and Big Business socially involved with your life as much as you want to. We all look to and seek guidance from different sources. I personally don't expect corporate America to reflect and provide my needs as a human. I think work is something often very separate from what is real and true in life and I would never live my life through it, and as a family we have never trusted our lives to it. It is not a definer for me. Jobs come and go. Work changes and evolves. It is not a constant thing.

I also do not view the world and all the people in it in such a divisive manner. Nationality is one of the more extreme methods of fracturing ourselves.


What do I need to step aside or something? And let the man go through? Am I preventing Bush from doing what is right. How did I become such a obstructionist in such a big way?



What do you mean in it's current form?

There is an actual real live bill in Congress right now as I type and it has been sitting around in Congress for a few years now. It has wide bipartisan support and most say it will pass and it reflects a lot of the things Bush was saying. It is called AgJobs for anyone interested in googling it.




I have already stated that the national hourly wage for farm labor and this is field labor...which is the lower end stuff ...is currently $8.40 and it goes up to 10 and 11 USD in some states even. That is exceptionally high when you consider that our farm labor has the largest concentration of illegal immigrants than any other ind in America. I don't think it is only the pay rate that makes certain jobs unappealing to Americans.

If the employer does not acknowledge having the undocumented worker employee, he/she certainly is not going to ask for an I-9. And as a matter of fact, Wal-Mart contracted with a company that was supposed to have required proof of citizenship of its employees but didn't.

There were 13 instances that were caught.

This sort of thing goes on all of the time. There was an expose on one of the TV documentary shows about the car washes in the LA area, hidden camera interviews where the illegals talked about working there and how they got shafted by the owners/operators. These owners/operators did not take documentation from these guys, and these guys didn't withhold taxes, either. In most cases it was a cash transaction. Well, these car wash owner/operators got busted.

Several years ago I heard that if a person made $50 from a transaction (might be from a garage sale!), he/she legally was supposed to declare it as income, according to the government. So who do you think declares to the government the money made on a garage sale? People do not feel obligated to let the government in on everything, and that is true with the wealthy who have a live-in housekeeper, maid or nanny whose papers are either non-existent or whose visa might have expired. There were a couple of judges nominated to the Supreme Court who had not taken out Social Security taxes on their domestic help who happened to be foreigners. They had to be disqualified. These were judges! Big wink and nod time to the wealthy.



Black, white, red, yellow and brown-skinned Americans are the "natives" we're talking about. Did you think we were only referring to Caucasians or Protestants?
People who have legally settled here and have been gainfully employed (until recently) are being affected by the dearth of jobs and the exodus of companies.
Their problems have a higher priority than amnesty for people who sneaked in.

Or are we to be like the seamstress's children who always had to do without new clothes?

Bucket please provide a link showing that illegal aliens are making as you put it from $8.40 to 11 an hour I hardly doubt they are getting paid that.

One thing I forgot to mention about the CNN programs that were on last week. One of the shows had an American citizen (white) doing lawn service for people and making a quite descent living doing it. And one of his customers said the reason she liked him over using a company that had illegals was he could understand what she said.

And also I used to do labor work when I first got out of high school and going to college at nite and weekends. And I started out at $10 an hour because our company was union but not following union rules on pay, but when I left it was $17 an hour and now it is over $25 an hour. There are some Americans that either can't or dont want to go to college and these are the kind of jobs as well as others that let them have a life. And this is one of the kind of jobs supposedly Americans don't want.

Yes I understand that but it is just as easy to be open and upfront about it. The law was designed that way...Congress knew that some of our ind are completely dependent on illegal employment and so they made a loophole rather than addressing the issue...confronting the American people's hypocrisy and doing the right thing.


Yes 13 that were caught that is what I said caught and fined..13 instances where the gov bothered to enforce the law. You think these hirings are going on so secretly and sneaky that it is just too difficult to catch them at it? Hardly!



I am not denying any situations. I for one know that many situations are simultaneously occurring. I know illegal immigrants personally myself and I know what they do or have done to get by around here. A great number of them live in this country with fake id and are being reported on payrolls and paying all the taxes like all the other Americans around them.
And yes paying employees under the table goes on all the time..regardless of residence status. Certainly is not a illegal immigrant only activity. Not to mention this kind of method of payment is often beneficial of both parties because the tax man is being avoided and the tax man isn't anyone's friend.



Yes right nativism has to do with your nationality...not your race or your religion. That is why it is it's own word. Nativism. Some people have asserted the idea that it does not matter and should not matter to our gov. that some people in our country are being enslaved or mistreated or having their basic human rights denied because they are not of a certain Nationality. Nativism.


Which has nothing to do with the issue of illegal immigration.



I did not say this please read over my post again.



Really there are nearly 1 million Americas who don't want to go to college and instead want to work in the fields? I had no idea it was such a popular career choice alternative. Look you don't need to lecture me on realities of life in America. I do happen to live here too thank you and only 2 people in my family bothered to go on to college and the rest of us are not migrant farm workers or landscapers. America affords a lot more opportunity than that and a college degree is not the only route for career success. Just because you don't want to go to college it does not mean you are destined to pick tomatoes or mow lawns.

Now Bucket that is unfair, you are parsing my words. There are many jobs that illegals are doing that Americans are willing to do not just farming labor. Besides if nothing else people that come here legally could also be offered those jobs if nothing else. Plain and simple if you enter the country illegally you should be deported, companies hiring illegals should be fined. How are we expected to follow the laws of our land if the illegal aliens dont.

You know what I wonder?

What will this bill do to the current illegal farm worker's wages? They also currently benefit from the relative labor scarcity in America (relative to Guatemala) So won't their wages now be depressed to the level of the average Guatemalan farm worker's wage in Guatemala?

I can't see anybody who benefits from this proposal other than the employers (Bush's key constituency) who will be able to compete directly with third world countries by paying third world wages.

Another question I have is why this seems to be restricted to unskilled work? If a hospital can't find a doctor willing to work for 25,000 a year can't they just import a doctor from India?

nero

There is an article in the Time Magazine, Issue January 19, 2004. It is not too insightful, but gives President Fox a chance to set the record straight on some media hype.



Here is the link to read the article online:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...-574810,00.html

There is one wish that President Fox has that I can't imagine happening any time in the near future. Per the article, he hopes to improve visas for Mexicans-if Canadians don't have to be fingerprinted at U. S. airports, then hopefully, Mexicans would also be exempt.

The Time magazine article referenced in the previous post was fascinating. According to the article:

The President of the United States is asking Congress to enact a law proposed by The President of Mexico when they were both state governors.



I mowed lawns for a number of years, as well as raked leaves, and shoveled snow. I worked with a number of men who had hoed weeds in bean fields, picked cucumbers, etc., before getting a job in the factory that their fathers and grandfathers had worked in. Prior to the influx of migrant workers, these jobs were done by Americans.

According to the Encarta online dictionary:

Okay, I will grant that nativism is and has been a part of our culture, and our national policy to the extent that The United States is used as the example to define the word. Congress has for a long time enacted laws that limited the number of immigrants allowed into the United States each year, set guidelines for their qualifications, and set guidelines for how they could stay and become citizens. Foreign Nationals who enter our borders without passing through customs, applying for appropriate tourist, work or student status are considered illegal aliens. How exactly they are finding steady employment without benefit of a green card is beyond me. I have never had an employer that didn't require copies of my Birth Certificate, Social Security Card, and Driver's License. I certainly don't see Help Wanted ads that read "Low pay, no benefits, and we don't ask questions." Even if these workers got temporary amnesty, I can't envision that they would travel back to their native countries and file a form 1040 with the IRS listing all of the cash payments they had received and paying the appropriate taxes on the income.

There are "Economic Laws" of supply and demand. which we are taught in school, interact to set the prices in an economy. If there is an excess supply, demand drops, and the prices drop accordingly. Traditionally, it was taught that prices and wages are only flexible up wards. If we have illegal aliens willing to work for low wages, and no benefits, it inevitably has to drive down the price of labor. If these illegal aliens are being paid in cash, then there is no need to deduct Income Taxes or pay Social Security Taxes, and the tax burden is necessarily shifted on to those of us who are obeying the law. At the same time, these workers, especially migrants, are buying gas, and buying food, and thus reducing the supply and increasing the demand for the basic commodities we rely on. Oops! That pushes up our cost of living at the same time that we are hemorrhaging legal jobs to other countries. An analysis in one of our local papers placed the cost savings of manufacturing a refrigerator in Mexico at $84 per unit, about 35 cents a month when spread over it's 20 year life expectancy. It is enough of a cost savings however, that a nearby factory is closing, and eliminating 2700 American jobs to move to Mexico. The workers are not being offered the opportunity to move to Mexico with the jobs.

Yes, we are practicing nativism, but for most of us who were born in this country, it has long been a way of life. People expected to find a job, and if it was a good one, to remain with that employer for life. We expected to buy our homes, to settle into our communities, to get involved with our churches and schools. As a Michigan native, it is expected that I cheer for the Detroit Tigers (I watched part of a game in 1968), the Detroit Lions (who I have never watched play), and the Detroit Pistons.(I wouldn't even recognize their uniforms or be able to tell you which ball league they belong to.) I spent over twenty years avoiding going to the barber shop because I didn't want to discuss sports! At the time, I lived over 100 miles from Detroit. I live even further away now, but I still get questioned about their teams and their performances. I've been unemployed for five years. Would I move to Detroit for a job? I doubt it. Aside from their reputation for murders, "Devil's Night" celebrations, and crazy drivers; it would be almost impossible to live in that city and explain that I am not a sports fan.

It is our way of life as Americans to care what school we went to, what city we live in, what company we work for. That is a message that most of our politicians are well aware of. It used to be said, "What's good for General Motors is good for America." Dumbya is apparently saying, "What's good for President Fox is good for America." It is a message which doesn't translate well from the Spanish.

Im not understanding this theory. Legality means Legal Wages, minimum as per US law. This is a step ABOVE getting under par pay, NOT having to accept low wages because one is illegal. Legallity changes that dynamic. Yes, in the past they were getting lower wage because there was no law enforcement on illegal status. With the current, they are subject to minimum wage, and have legal rights to stake claim against unlawful treatment.

For those advocating against this, I have seen the living conditions and treatment of Temp workers in the US. I will tell you FOR A FACT, NOT A STUDENT, NOR ANYONE, who is not desperate; maybe a social worker, or a journalist, or someone who wants to connect with the 'people' might do this job; but not a single one otherwise would even attempt to try to put up with what could be considered 'Grapes of Wrath' conditions for Temp immigrant workers.
I challenge ANYONE to go out there TODAY, and do this work for this pay, ONE DAY then come back and say, they have NO RIGHTS in the US. I mean this wholeheartedly.

Temp workers MUST have some rights, or believe me, you wont get strawberries or tomatoes, grapes from the calif wine fields, cherries, oranges or almonds to market, or we will, with constant abuse of those who do this work. With legalization, if americans want to do it, they compete for the jobs at minimum wage, not so utterly below standard that it is embarrassing for a first world nation and impossible for lets say, young people who need the work to compete.



Who are americans today? Curm, the facts are that, not because of these workers, but because of our standard of living, american born citizens of several generations, WILL NOT DO THESE JOBS. Actually, that they were illegal worker jobs made them very low pay. Making these jobs now legal, should raise the pay, and maybe some may apply to pick cherries. Ill not hold my breath, but its a possibitilty. The reality is that legaility raises the wage.
Times have changed Curmedgeon. White folks aint picking strawberries, cherries or oranges for a living anymore, as politically incorrect as that is to say. But if they suddenly had a longing to do so, then minimum wage would have to be the order of the day, and this prop makes that happen. Legal wage for a legal days work, not undercut wages because youre a no good immigrant and cant do a thing about it. Is this comprehensible? It actually evens the playing field.

Laws of the land ? Is that what they are? Or are they perhaps our Government's laws? The laws of the land have been around a lot longer than Americans have.



Prior? Like when in the 1800s? Honestly how far back do you have to take it to show this is true? We have had migrant workers from Mexico involved with our Ag ind for well over a 100 yrs. Not only do we give these people no recognition for human rights in our country...we give them no recognition in our history.
Did you know that over 5 million Mexican migrant workers came to the US during WWII in order to help us with our shortage of manual labor in our fields and railroads. 5 million. No one ever says gee thanks for that...or wasn't that helpful of the Mexican gov to sign their people away to us like that...people who we ended up again giving NO recognition and again ignored their rights.

It is not the 1800s anymore. Yes maybe you did pick veggies and mowed lawns in your youth and? Why didn't you make a career out of it?
How many people here in the US even live close enough to a farm for it to even be feasible for them to work on one?

Well my grandfather worked in a ball bearing factory and the last thing in the world I want to do is that. And I don't have to being that I no longer live in England and I no longer have to have my life defined by who I was born to. Americans are afforded more opportunities than most anyone else and there is nothing shameful about that...and there is nothing wrong with it either. Yet we should at least take pride in this fact, we should at least be honest about it and we should do the right thing. Right now the very wrong thing is being done..and I personally am not ok with it.

Your economics break down only applies if an illegal immigrant pays no taxes and a lot of them DO pay taxes. How does one live in America and not pay taxes? How is that possible? No one ever asks me for my immigration status when making a purchase. It is very easy to get a fake drivers licence or SS card. Some people even use their children's identity.

Also the idea that illegal immigrants gobble up our resources. As if all our resources in our country are ours to begin with! We do have a world economy. I think most of the gas you are purchasing is not an American resource but rather was provided by a foreign trader.
The food was mostly picked and again provided by foreign labor. Oh and don't forget we also IMPORT food. I also had no idea we were suffering any kind of food shortage. I am really bothered by this kind of logic..it is completely nonsensical and it is only meant to be begrudging. The last thing I ever want to find myself doing is begrudging another person in this world for having food.
Which reminds me of a very wonderful quote I will have to go find.



Not all illegal immigrants speak Spanish or are even Mexican.

That is your life as an American....yours. Do you not understand that? Not everyone in America and not every American lives life like you or thinks like you. It is totally and completely impossible for you to sit here and make such a blanket statement about what it is Americans want in life and what it is they value most. None of the things I or my family value were listed and I am an American

Where was all the outrage and predictions of doom for the AgJobs bill? Why haven't we seen any debates or discussions on it? It just happens to be a real bill.

Here I found the quote I was reminded of.

Swathed in a saffron robe, Swami Dheerananda surveyed the campers as they crossed little, jeans-clad legs and gathered before him for story hour.

"One day, a group of people wanted to find out the difference between heaven and hell. So they got on a spaceship and zoomed to hell."

The hell that the group encountered, he said, boasted the stuff of which dreams are made: food, movies and video games. But there was a catch: Dwellers in hell could not move their elbows. With stiff limbs, eating turned into a most complicated affair; most resorted to throwing food up in the air with hopes of catching some morsels in their mouths.

Heaven, he said, looked exactly the same. Even there, elbows didn't bend. So how did people eat?

"They fed each other," said Dheerananda, demonstrating with an outstretched hand. "Heaven means where you serve the other. Hell means where you serve yourself."

Okay, this is completely outside the debating topic, but...

Which England were you in? No-one is defined by their who they were born to in Britain anymore I'm not debating that Britain may have been that way once upon a time, but c'mon, Britain hasn't been like that since the end of WW2!

Back to the topic at hand.......

Immigrants are good - they're always good. They work hard & are are often grateful to be able to come to a democratic country & make the most of the opportunity to do what they are best at, rather than be consigned to a particular role in society by a caste system or religious law or a dictator.

I have no problem with legal immigrants, but when you come into this country illegally you should not be afforded the rights as if you came here legally.

Wow Buckets you got my here.



What ever you want to call them all boils down to the Laws of the United States of America should be followed. Not letting illegal aliens get a pass on the laws while enforcing them on EVERYONE ELSE is not right.

Cadman...

Can't laws change? Especially if they are not serving the ideal they were intended or do not reflect or address a reality in our society.
Many laws have been repealed or reformed many times in accordance to our changing attitudes and needs as a country....especially immigration laws.

I am going to answer out of turn! Yes, laws can change. They change from time to time to IMPROVE our society. This proposal would do nothing but hurt Americans. If you really think it would help the average American Citizen, please describe how?!? Giving jobs to illegal immigrants that could be filled by unemployed Americans does not help the unemployed American, and if you think it does, please explain how!

As well as legal immigrants could also do these jobs. Yes laws can change as Slim has said but like Slim has said how is this benefial to us.

So having our Ag ind rely on legal labor for up to 90% of it's needs in some areas of the US is considered improvement? Making those people legal, allowing our farmers an obvious needed legal channel for employees and ensuring that basic human rights are being adhered to is not considered improvement...care to elaborate on this?


Again look at the numbers..some states have up to 90% illegal immigrants picking our food. Some estimates place the national number at 80%..again picking our food. How exactly are you not benefiting from this? Do you go a day without eating? Are you saying that allowing this labor to remain illegal and remain a major component of the black market is beneficial to you and the rest of us? Do you care to explain why.

I focus on the Ag labor right now because I am pretty sure that AgJobs will pass and one of catalysts that is going to be used to pass it will be to put Bush's vision to the test.

According to The Bureau of Labor Statistics there were 8.4 million unemployed persons in the USA in December, 2003. How about placing these people in jobs rather than inviting millions of illegal immigrants to take them, utilizing the available workforce already here? Wouldn't that be an improvement?



No, I don't think letting illegal workers being taken advantage of is beneficial. It drives down wages and working conditions. Changing their status to legal workers is not going to fix the problem. If an illegal worker is allowed to work for 3 years, and then is not allowed to remain here, what do you think he/she is going to do? Head on home? I doubt that. They will then become an illegal worker again and be subject to all of the same horrid conditions they are facing now. Businesses will always hire the cheapest labor, and the agriculture sector has become proficient at it.

I am taking my time to write this because this is a topic that affects me . I am a 30 yrs old woman born in the caribbean. I have lived in this country for the last 17 yrs. I did elementary school for two yrs, four yrs of highschool and some classes in comm college. I am illegal. I have a 7 yrs old daughter born here. I am illegal. I know no other place but here. This is my home. I recalled having (caucasian) classmates who were caribbean born of american parents. Some came with jobs relocation ,others just choose to live there and not one of them had to acquire a green card to stay ,work ,eat , and live. I have never committed a crime and yet I feel criminal. America is made up of illegal immigrants and to say you are not in favor of this is a crime. A crime of selfishness and racism. I have met other immigrants from different countries who have said the same , americans can come and live in their homeland with no difficulties ,no green cards. I have met many americans white and black who can trace their ancestors arrival into america through ellis island. America is what it is because of immigrants, the only true americans is the american indians. Who are we to deny people a place to do better ,to create businesses and bring money to an already rich country. To stand up like women and men and feel proud , to feed and clothe their children. TO want something better for their life. I am an american ,whether a green card is given to me or not and I deserve a right to live. I am illegal and I am in favor of any law that aid ,good ,honest people in getting their dream to make something of the lives.

I have no way to say this gently- but you are a foriegn invader, and are in fact, a criminal, and should be treated as one. You broke our laws knowingly and never even tried to live by the rules. I had to jump through hoops and pay large amounts of money for my wife and mother-in-law and soon grandmother just to VISIT the US- and your feeling of entitlement makes you feel somehow wronged.

This is precisely why this proposal is so very wrong.

Hmmn, AHEM, Cruising...A moment to pause and reflect.
This woman arrived at 13 y/o from her story, hardly criminal intent. How or why is unknown, but certainly reflects upon a portion of this debate not before considered. How one can live, work, go to school, birth a child and spend 17 years as an illegal is astounding.
I know 'I' have trouble getting anything achieved without ID, credit reports, SS card, resume, references and viability up the yin/yang. I am constantly getting screwed for the slightest lack of vigilance over my ALL POWERFUL credit report. HOW someone can spend 17 years, coming as an adolescent, and remain an illegal in this country and survive for 17 years is the 10th wonder of the world.

American in yrs, I would very like to hear more about your story. I am sure it hasnt been easy, but also you have thrown a debatable wrench into the mix.

I have said this before. Most nations that have influx of immigration have amnesty periods, it serves the nation as well as the immigrants who have been there for extended periods of time. TAXES for one. After all , they are usually already employed, under the table. Illegal immigrants in this country have their own networks of support, on the margin, they can live and work without legal status. We cant deport all of them. Those that want amnesty generally have to jump through hoops to get it, and I think if they do, sometimes it should be provided with specific criteria. This thing against awarding 'law breakers' is a ridiculous insinuation, an empty principle. You know what? The line between lawbreaking and hunger is nonexistant. Gettng a job and supporting your family is not a criminal offense in the court of humanity, no matter where you manage to do it. Standing on this principle of 'lawbreaking' will not solve any of the inherant problems of illegal immigration. Its a sort of , cut of your nose to spite your face, scenario. It does not work and we need workable solutions.

Illegal immigration happens, especially to rich countries with a lazy, arrogant work force that considers themselves above certain labor, and we had that.
However, when the belt gets tightend people always blame immigration and almost always become protectionist. The Germans are hating the Turks they imported to do their clean up work when things were good, after the fall of the wall it became another scenario, but are Turkish janitors or Hungarian maids suddenly to blame for Germany's economic woes? I doubt it.

I am , to change my stance on Temp workers, not in favor of the Bush plan. I am in favor of a certain amnesty to people who have been in the country over long periods of time that have not had an outlet for legalization and very possibly deserve it. Its good business for the nation. I think temp workers ( veg and fruit pickers) should be guaranteed a decent wage and healthy living conditions while they are in the country. WE are NOT going to change the facts. Americans are NOT going to pick fruit in todays day and age, its naive to think so. It goes all the way back to Ceasar Chavez and americans were not picking fruit THEN, and he is DEAD. So lets get a workable and non abusive plan in place for these people who get your food to market.

As a libertarian who believes that "hypothetically" and in "theory" anyone who wants a job and who can find a willing employer regardless of "borders" should get one, I say this... Go back to your home country and apply legally unless you want your former countrymen to think that you are a whiney, ungrateful, lawbreaker who slipped through the cracks of an overburdened generous society that allows for a certain amount of illegal immigration to perform tasks that the people in your home country are just now getting the hang of !!! It sets a bad precedent by encouraging your former countrymen to break federal law and instills in them the notion that "cheating works...just whine about the question later"...

Seems to me the majority of people are against the policy and the illegals aren't too happy about it either.

GMAN